271. Sexpert Swinger Cruises: F**king up more than you f**k - Amber Mallery

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Amber. Join us for a conversation all about being a messy, real human on their pleasure journey. Together we talk about pleasure mapping, vulnerably cracking your heart open, and the breath of a good orgasm. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. My heart is so filled with joy that you are here again for another episode to explore the psychological paradigms of your pleasure.

My name is Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, author of The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and The First Study on Relationship Anarchy, and founder of the Pleasure Practice, where I teach students from around the world how to craft pleasurable sex lives and non-monogamous relationships.

Dear listener, what a special episode I am sharing with you today. Amber is also a round two guest on this show. Hello. We are having so many round two guests, and it's been fun just to, like, check in. Where are people at? It's been five years. What has unfolded? And what I really appreciate about this episode is that Amber was so, so real, where she she's not trying to be the, "I have this all figured out, and I'm an expert on this, and you guys just don't get what I have magically learned over the years."

Like, no, she was real and authentic about the times where, like, we just completely fall off the pleasure track or journey, whatever, and you fall on your face and you're crying and all of the complexities there, and what it means to get back up. You know, we're just going deeper in the spirals of what it means to be human.

And in that spiral journey, you'll hit that circle back to the same point. It's a little different because it's the second time around, right? Third time, fourth, right? But it's a part of what it means to be human, right? To make mistakes, to cry, to have those moments where you have to pick yourself back up.

And I just really appreciate the authenticity of that, and I think it's such an important part of what I see with this new era of therapists and healers and experts, just this, this real embrace of our humanness. And I think that is so, so, so important for our collective and for our movement to see the real human journey because then you know that you're not alone, dear listener.

May this episode remind you that you are not alone in falling off and getting burnt out and forgetting what your pleasure looks like. We're all on this journey together, and I am so, so grateful that you are here learning, growing, and expanding with me each Wednesday All right, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and all of my free worksheets and resources at modernanarchypodcast.com.

That is also where you can learn so much more information about my upcoming Pleasure Liberation Non-Monogamy program. Dear listener, I designed this for you so that you could have a place where you could learn the psychological tools and skills and frameworks needed to craft pleasurable non-monogamous relationships.

This is the program I wanted years ago. And after working with so many non-monogamous clients, I started to see these repeat patterns of skills and frameworks and foundations that are essential if you want non-monogamy to be stable, you want it to be pleasurable, you wanna feel secure, orgasmic. I mean, this is the place to learn, and it's such a beautiful time each year when I run this in the fall.

It starts the last week of August. We go for 16 weeks just to about mid-December, right? And you are connecting with students from around the world, students from different age groups, genders, race, class. Like, so many different people come into this space, and there is so much wisdom to learn when we come into a space together and we're really vulnerable, like Amber was, like so many of the guests on the show are, to what it means to actually be human as you craft your non-monogamous relationships.

And I have all the education, the tools, the frameworks that will help you do that in a pleasurable way. Okay, dear listener, it's all linked in the show notes below. Of course, if you have any questions about it, please reach out. I am so excited that so many of you have already signed up. It's been exciting to get to meet with you, having your free info calls, and getting to hear your stories and what you're excited about with the group.

And this year's cohorts are just shaping up with so many amazing, badass pleasure activists, and I am so excited to start this program with you guys this upcoming fall. And also, I wanna say thank you to all of my Patreon supporters. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I couldn't have made this show for the last five years, this free resource that I create with my team each Wednesday, without your support.

So thank you for supporting me, for supporting my team, for supporting this show and all the educational work that we are putting out each Wednesday. And with that, dear listener, please know that I am sending you all my love, and

[00:05:27] Amber: let's tune in to today's episode

[00:05:36] Dr. Nicole: Dear listener, there's a space already waiting for you where you are invited to let go of every old script about sex and relationships, and begin living a life rooted in your pleasure, empowerment, and deep alignment. I'm Dr. Nicole, and this is your invitation to the Pleasure Liberation Groups, a transformative, educational, and deeply immersive experience designed for visionary individuals like you.

Together, we'll gather in community to explore desire, expand relational wisdom, and embody the lives we're here to lead. Each session is woven with practices, teachings, and the kind of connection that makes real transformation possible. And I'll be right there with you, guiding the process with an embodied curriculum that supports both personal and collective liberation.

This is your invitation into the next chapter of your erotic evolution. Say yes to your pleasure and visit modernanarchypodcast.com/pleasurepractice to apply.

And the first question that I love to ask every guest on the show is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:07:02] Amber: So I would introduce myself as Amber Mallory, sexpert. I always say your sexpert bestie. I am not at the doctor stage, but I'm finishing my PhD- Oh ... so hopefully by the time this is released, I hope people are gonna reach out and be like, "Congrats," and like that.

[00:07:21] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Um,

[00:07:22] Amber: and I also like to throw in the TED speaker thing for the sake of just, like, you know, it's kinda cool I did that. Yeah. And yeah, triple Libra, sexpert bestie, overall good times vibe lady.

[00:07:35] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Well, welcome back to the show. It's so exciting to have you again.

[00:07:40] Amber: Yeah. I'm so happy to be here, actually.

Like, this has been, like, such a journey, as we were kinda discussing, so I'm excited to really get into it with the listeners and catch everyone up.

[00:07:50] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I know you were listening to your episode, which, what, came out, like, five years ago. Wild. When we- Yeah ... when this, when this was released, five years. And so I c- I cannot go back.

It's like rereading your old journals. I'm like, "Oh, God, my voice. This is so embarrassing." I just, I can't. So how was it for you to listen to your old episode?

[00:08:13] Amber: I, I was like... Like I said, I was, like, going, having a listen, kind of moving forward. Like, it's exactly what you're saying, where you look back. But it was also just really exciting because this was really the first interview after I had just done my TED Talk- Mm-hmm

and so there was a lot of, like, that and that excitement of- Yeah ... you know? I think I was... It's so interesting to see how far you've come, and it's like I already felt like I had come so far by getting to that point, and now even where I am now, I feel like I'm on another peak of another mountain in- Yeah

this whole journey. So it's really cool, and I'm happy to be at, like, another professional, emotional, psychological high. Um, so yeah, it's been quite great, and it was interesting to kind of revisit that because it becomes old history, but it's still really relevant, and you forget to give yourself props and praise even though it's been a bit.

[00:09:07] Dr. Nicole: Right. Absolutely, 'cause we're looking forward. What's next? Where am I going? What's next, right? Especially as someone who runs a small business, it's always like, where am I going? What am I doing with this career? Where am I going, right? And it's like, oh, wait, what have you already done? Oh, yeah. Right. Yeah.

[00:09:24] Amber: Exactly. And I feel like when you're... And I'm so guilty of this too, where I'm so forward thinking. I'm always onto the next thing, you know, and moving onto the next job, and what's my next gig, and, and, oh, now I'm gonna do the PhD. Like, I never really rest, and I feel like as a result of not really resting, I also don't really praise, and I don't really take it in.

Mm-hmm. And I don't experience the joy. Yeah. I'm like, "Wow, this was great," and now it's Tuesday. What's going on? You know? And so-

[00:09:54] Dr. Nicole: Oh ...

[00:09:54] Amber: it was nice to revisit in that sense. Like, of course, things are a bit cringe, and you're like, "Oh, my word."

[00:09:59] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:10:00] Amber: But all in all, you're like

[00:10:03] Dr. Nicole: Yeah

[00:10:03] Amber: Oh, that's cool.

[00:10:04] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Well, I'll push you then.

What are you most proud of when you look back on your journey in the last five years?

[00:10:11] Amber: Yeah, I think I would say It's interesting because I would say that it's really my relationship with myself- Mm.

[00:10:21] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:10:22] Amber: that's become the biggest thing. Sure. And I am 31 now. Mm-hmm. And I was, like, a baby, I was in my mid-20s last time we chatted.

And as most people know, like, your 20s, right, it's like at the beginning you're school, school, school, school. And then I had moved to Europe, and I was figuring it out. Mm. And then I was kind of coming into my own as a sexpert. And I feel like I was so professionally driven that the vast majority of my 20s was, like, academia and then professional self.

[00:10:52] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:10:53] Amber: High achieving, doing all of that, the TED Talk, the school, the, the next job, the better job, the better, better job- Right ... and so on. But now I feel like I'm learning how to say no. Mm. I'm learning how to set boundaries. Mm. I'm learning how to seek and ask for more of my community, of my peers- Yeah ... and stepping away from that professional self a little bit and actually finding joy in my own being, in my own health, in my own psychological journey.

So it's a very powerful place. Mm-hmm. And that, I think, is what I'm the most proud of.

[00:11:30] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it sounds like a really deep connection with self and your own pleasure as well as the interdependence of being able to rely on other people in your community.

[00:11:41] Amber: Yeah. And I think a lot of us who are sexperts or work in the field of sexuality, there's...

I wouldn't say that everyone's a people pleaser, but there's this level of, like, it's almost like people who are doctors or teachers and stuff like that. You have this deeper sense of, like, compassion and also connection to people. So when people come to you and they say, "I really can't have an orgasm.

I'm really struggling," and maybe you're really ready to be turned off or you're really ready to kind of step away, and you-

[00:12:12] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:12:12] Amber: you're just like, "Oh, okay." And you always give that extra bit of yourself. Or you even in your own sex life find yourself-

[00:12:20] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:12:20] Amber: still helping people or helping people after the fact, and maybe they're not your people anymore.

And it's very interesting, because I wouldn't say that I've totally lost that, but I definitely create more space for myself of, you know what? They don't need the full one-hour session with me. You can give them a little bit, and then you can kind of let them begin that journey for themselves. You don't need to hold their hand for the next however long you're in their presence to get them there.

Yeah. So that's, kinda connects with that sense of self and those boundaries and everything.

[00:12:56] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Both with clients and at least in my own life, my personal dating life, to learn that I should not be dating people where that's the energy I feel of, like, "Oh, look at this. Oh, let me help them. Oh."

Like, that's not... That definitely in my 20s was definitely, like, the move. I felt like, "Oh, I could be so helpful." Right? And now where I'm at, I'm like, "Absolutely not. That is not... That is, no."

[00:13:19] Amber: Yes. Like, I'm not... I am the project. I'm not taking on any more projects. Yeah, no. My caseload is full. Like, I respect you.

I get it, friend. Uh. But also, like, I can't save all the little puppies and- Nope, nope ... and animals and everything. Like, I'm- ... I'm sorry, babes.

[00:13:36] Dr. Nicole: No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. And that's why I make a free resource. I'm like, "You want it? It's right here. Come get it. Come listen." Yeah. "I have over hundreds of episodes.

Come listen. It's right here for you." You know? Yeah.

[00:13:49] Amber: Yeah. And these really make a difference, for example, because people, obviously, the- you have a large community, you have a large following. Mm-hmm. And then when you bring on other people's community, it's like becomes the Venn diagram, right? Yeah. And I've had really, like, members of my family who grew up, you know, in like USSR, and then it collapsed.

Oh,

[00:14:10] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[00:14:10] Amber: And n- now, now they're living in the United States, and it's like a completely different vibe for them. And even though they're living in, like, a cultural kind of hub type of place- Mm-hmm ... they think that they've seen everything 'cause they've lived in New York or Chicago or LA or whatever. Yeah,

[00:14:25] Dr. Nicole: sure.

[00:14:25] Amber: And then they listen to an episode like this, and the way sex is- nuance and pleasure is teased and touched on and talked about in ways that most people don't see in the spectrum of experience- Yeah ... and conversation.

[00:14:40] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:14:41] Amber: They find it so transformative. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I've had people be like, "I've listened to this podcast and wow," you know?

Uh-huh. So your free resource is really doing- Mm ... absolute, like, labor and work for people- Oh ... 'cause it touches people. Oh. And I, I get messages too from different, like, various places that I've been in these types of podcast settings- Mm ... where people say-

[00:15:02] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ... "

[00:15:03] Amber: Uh, you know, I reached out 'cause you said reach out, and thank you, and I appreciate you."

Yeah. And so you're doing great work being- Mm ... a free resource in this way.

[00:15:12] Dr. Nicole: Mm. I really appreciate those kind words and that reminder, 'cause sometimes you don't see it all. Mm-hmm. You know? Especially a podcast, 'cause it's... I see the numbers grow, but I don't see- Of course ... I don't see the faces always. And so that's why it does mean so much when you say stuff like that or people do reach out to me.

I'm like, "Ah, yeah, this is actually going somewhere. There's a real human behind that, like, number that I see increase each week." Yeah.

[00:15:36] Amber: Yeah. That's it. And so to anyone listening, like- ... shout out. Like, send people their flowers. Yeah. If you're scared to send that DM, I say that in everything I do. I'm like, "Even if you're scared to do it, just send it."

Like, most of the time plenty of us are so nice and so willing. And if someone's not at the place or capacity where they can receive you well, like, don't always take it personally either. Like, sometimes things are censored, things are lost, you know? Yeah. Don't always see it as, like, an immediate cut-off. I...

But I would say the majority of the time we see stuff and we tend to reply-

[00:16:09] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:16:09] Amber: when it's respectful.

[00:16:10] Dr. Nicole: Exa- exactly, yeah. Also- 'Cause we get some that are not, right? That's a whole other... Oh,

[00:16:16] Amber: gosh. But when it's respectful and it's not, like, clearly asking for emotional or sexual labor- Yes ... without any-

[00:16:22] Dr. Nicole: Right

[00:16:23] Amber: real recognition. 'Cause that's happened. You know?

[00:16:24] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh,

[00:16:25] Amber: boy.

[00:16:26] Dr. Nicole: They're like, "I have this question. Can you answer this whole thing?" And I'm like, "No, that is my job." "It's literally my job. What do you mean?"

[00:16:33] Amber: Exactly. They're like, "Could you just tell me, like, how my penis..." And I'm like, "No, I, I can't." "Just no, not me, babe, sorry."

[00:16:43] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah, and working in this field, it's so fascinating 'cause you're helping people connect with their pleasure. And while you do that work, your own relationship to pleasure is ever-evolving and shifting. I'm curious for you, what has that looked like over the last five years? How has your relationship to pleasure transformed?

[00:17:02] Amber: Yeah, I would say I am going through a very interesting but very familiar cycle for most women- Mm ... in a sense of like I was in my early 20s and now I'm in my early 30s. The sex I was having these, this decade is completely different. When I was 20- Sure ... it was very much disempowered, thinking I was empowered- Mm

having lots of like stray hookups, doing things like that, but not really experiencing pleasure or getting off. I was just having sex with people and I wouldn't have an orgasm, but it was just like the chase, the pursuit, and the kill, so to say- Yeah ... were so fun.

[00:17:42] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:17:42] Amber: And now I'm reflecting more on it in my 30s and I'm being a lot more intentional, and I'm like someone has to put forth effort- Mm

and I can actually ask for more. I think that was the other thing is I was making myself so sexually convenient for people- Mm ... under the guise of being a liberated- Mm ... like woman.

[00:18:05] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:18:06] Amber: And really I wasn't. Yeah. And that's not to say that other people aren't. I also don't want my journey to be misconstrued, and especially when I say it's like a common cycle.

But I think it's more of the cycle of being a person who is in a more marginalized position and then realizing that you deserve, can, and can ask for more. And maybe when you were asking for less it was because you felt less or people made you feel you deserve less, or many of these. And of course I have a level of privilege, right?

Like I'm white- Yeah ... I'm native English speaking. My level of marginalization is very much limited to the fact that like I'm a cisgender woman, and even then that puts me- miles above most marginalized communities. Mm-hmm. So I don't want this to come off like I'm playing into this whole like, "Oh, I'm so marginalized and this happened to me," type of thing.

But we also know from past, uh, conversations, and for those who don't, I was a sex worker. I was doing it for money. I was a survival sex worker. So also my relationship with sex was very transactional. Yeah. And now it's going into this intentional space. So there's layers and dynamicies here that I think my mother probably experienced- Mm

even though she wasn't a sex worker. Mm-hmm. Probably my grandmother. Oh, yeah. You know, like so many people. Yeah. And they warn you when you're younger. They're like, "Ask for more," or, "Do more," or, "Ignore this person," and you just are like, "No, but I'm fine and I'm free and it's okay." And now you're kinda like, "Maybe I wasn't.

Maybe I was-" I know ... "lying to myself."

[00:19:38] Dr. Nicole: I know, right? That's the- Yeah ... scary thing when you look back and you're like, "I thought I was so liberated, but was I?"

[00:19:46] Amber: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:19:47] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. It's humbling, right? 'Cause then I'm like, "Well, what am I missing now?" And then you can't spiral too deep on that 'cause then you won't live, you know.

You gotta, you gotta-

[00:19:56] Amber: Of course ... you just

[00:19:57] Dr. Nicole: gotta be like-

[00:19:58] Amber: You gotta keep it moving.

[00:19:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. You're like, there's... Humble. That's always what I say. Just stay humble where I'm like, I th- I feel really strongly about this, and also I'm open to being wrong. And I'm sure- Yeah ... in 10 years I'll be like, "Yeah, Nicole, you thought you were coming hard, but you had no idea."

You know what I mean? And so when I look back on my 20s, I, I remember a lot of, like, performance in terms of the script. Yes. You know, like foreplay, then penetration, then orgasm, and that was the only thing. And there was nothing outside of that. I had such a hard time saying, "Pause. Can we pause?" Like, "Hey, I need t- to pee," "Hey, this hurts."

Like, any of that was so hard. And then it was always such a, a, a game of reciprocity. There was never a day where... Or at least I would give to my partners at the time and feel okay with that, but the idea of me just receiving, phew- I felt so guilty. I'd receive some sort of pleasure and be like, "I have to give back.

Oh my God. Oh my God, my turn." Yep. "Let me, let me give back. Let me give back. Ah." You know, instead of seeing like, w- wow, it's a gift that they just helped me orgasm. They really enjoyed that. Some people really love to just top, and, and- Yeah ... I shouldn't even use the word just, right? Like, some people love to top, and myself included.

Like, just the other weekend I was on my period, and I was like, of, of course, the period always comes at the play party. Yeah. I'm like, why is the timing-

[00:21:22] Amber: It always does, actually ... what is

[00:21:23] Dr. Nicole: this?

[00:21:24] Amber: They're like, "You're gonna wear little clothes." Yeah. Exactly.

[00:21:27] Dr. Nicole: I'm like, I think the universe is like, "Blood ritual, Nicole.

It's next. That's your next evolution." "And we keep timing it for you, and you refuse." And I'm like, "Ah, okay." But it's day one, so I'm like cramping hard, and I'm like, I can't even- Yeah ... fathom being touched, right? But that's like a beautiful moment where I come to one of my partners and I'm like, "Hey, what do you want?

Relax." Mm-hmm. Like, "I'll give you this full experience," and that's so hot, and I love that. Uh, and I know my earlier, younger 20s just like could not receive any of that pleasure without so much guilt and shame

[00:21:57] Amber: No, no, 100%. And I think now it's even, this is like part of the journey in the sense of like, you know, celibacy, the topic, is very hot right now.

Mm. And I took a year off. Oh, wow. But when I say I took a year off, I wouldn't like... I didn't take a year off. I sto- like, got off the apps. Mm-hmm. And if I met someone in real-life setting, and it would usually be like every quarter, you know? Sure.

[00:22:21] Dr. Nicole: Sure, sure,

[00:22:22] Amber: sure. Like every quarter I would have someone, I'd have some hookup I met somewhere.

Yeah. It was fun. But I remember it was like this whole big journey for me of like, "Okay, I'm going... I just left a relationship. I'm gonna take some time apart. I'm gonna like work on myself." Because it wasn't that I was a serial dater, I was- Mm ... a serial fucker.

[00:22:41] Dr. Nicole: Mm,

[00:22:41] Amber: mm-hmm. So I was like- Yeah ... "Let's take a break and see what this gets me."

Yeah. And then I was having... I went, I regressed and I was having- Mm ... this performative sex again. Right. Then I would have these hookups. Yes, I remember I was sleeping with this one guy, and he was from Finland, and his dick was enormous. Yeah. And he was like, I call it like stirring the pot, like he was completely inside me and then just like- Yeah

churning.

[00:23:04] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah.

[00:23:05] Amber: Like not, no in and out, like completely- Sure ... just churning my guts up.

[00:23:08] Dr. Nicole: Yeah,

[00:23:09] Amber: yeah. Completely.

[00:23:09] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:23:10] Amber: And I, it was so painful, and I was- Mm ... at one point I was like literally gritting. I was like, "Ugh." Mm,

[00:23:16] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[00:23:16] Amber: And then after he left, I was like... He got up, like he finished, everything like that, and then he was like, "Okay, I'm gonna go."

Like didn't even sleep over, and I was like, "Wow. Why did I do that?"

[00:23:29] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:23:31] Amber: Whereas in my early 20s I would've just been like-

[00:23:34] Dr. Nicole: Great ... "

[00:23:34] Amber: See ya." Yeah, see ya. "Goodbye." Yeah. So it's interesting now because even then I was like, that's where I got really reflective about it, and now I thought I was gonna get into a relationship at the end of this year.

[00:23:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:23:47] Amber: Turned out it was community dick, so it wasn't gonna happen. Mm. But you know, typical situationship thing, but went on for like two weeks, which was- Two weeks too long And it was, but it set me out, right? It was. 'Cause I was, he was doing everything right. Like, he had, he had a nice car, he had a nice dress.

Yeah. And I know for people, they're gonna say, "This is so superficial," but it was the intention of, like, I like to dress really fem. I like to wear high heels- Me too, yeah ... and dresses. That doesn't have to be for everyone.

[00:24:16] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:24:17] Amber: Um, if you could see me right now, you'd be like, "Liar." '

[00:24:21] Dr. Nicole: Cause you're cozy, and we record in the cozy.

[00:24:25] Amber: We, we record in the cozy with my vulva sweatshirt.

[00:24:29] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which

[00:24:29] Amber: actually, that was a l- I just realized I have toothpaste and it looks like come on. I did not notice this until right now. This

[00:24:35] Dr. Nicole: is a full part of the cozy. This is a full part of the cozy.

[00:24:39] Amber: I'm obsessed. Um- So, uh, anyway- It's amazing

like I, I thought I was gonna be with this person, and then I had to, like, come into the reality and say, "Okay, this isn't gonna happen." Yeah. And then it made me reflect that on the celibacy, and I was like, "Was I even empowered in that?" So now I'm calling myself off-leash winter. Like- Mm ... I am neither celibate nor completely out, but I'm just going to be impulsive and feel good about it, and if I want- Yeah

pleasure and I wanna receive, I'm gonna ask for it And I'm like a dog, I'm gonna just do-

[00:25:15] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:25:16] Amber: like- Amazing ... that's how I feel.

[00:25:17] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it sounds like a whole new space in your connection to pleasure. And as a sex educator- Totally ... you know, there's so much of the time that we're, like, thinking, thinking, theory, thinking, thinking, think- sex, thinking, thinking, thinking.

It's like, oh, shit. Yes. I gotta just do it. I just gotta do it. Yeah. I gotta stop thinking about how to swim and actually get in the water, you know?

[00:25:37] Amber: Yeah.

[00:25:38] Dr. Nicole: Ugh, yeah.

[00:25:40] Amber: And stop overthinking it, 'cause I think that's the thing, right? Is, like, even I find myself, like, putting myself into this binary of, like, am I celibate?

Am I not celibate? Am I looking for a relationship? Am I not looking for a relationship? And now I'm just taking it person by person. Like, if I meet someone- Yeah ... and it's fun and I'm having a great time, I'm gonna enjoy myself, and I'm not going to feel guilty as if I broke my, my self-help journey- Right

or if I was a little more performative and I didn't enjoy it as much. I'm just going to take it more as a learning experience. So I almost feel like I'm relearning-

[00:26:13] Dr. Nicole: Totally ...

[00:26:13] Amber: in a way. And it's- Mm-hmm ... honestly, I'm quite proud of it. I think it's- Yeah ... quite amazing. And I always would... I would joke with people that I was, like, the celibate sexpert and everything like that.

But I think we all come to that journey, 'cause it's as you're saying, like, we were thinking about sex so much. We're thinking about others so much. Mm-hmm. It's a, it's a different mentality, especially- Oh, yeah ... when you're seeing the body as an instrument of pleasure a lot of times like we do. We're thinking about erogenous zones and touch, and it's fascinating, but then we forget about ourselves.

[00:26:42] Dr. Nicole: Oh, completely. Oh, completely. Like, I love the podcast, the business that I run so much that I could work on the podcast and my newsletters and the business so much that I would go for months without any sort of sexual activity. And it's like, wait- girl. Isn't this what you talk- Yeah ... you know? And it's like, sure, you know, go with your ebb and flow of your creativity and all that, but sometimes I think I'll work so hard that I forget, like, oh, I need to actually listen to the newsletters I'm writing, which is like, take a deep breath and touch yourself, you know?

So it's, like, wild.

[00:27:18] Amber: Yeah. I- It's actually like touching onto some of the work I'm doing with the Desire Cruises- Yeah ... which are swingers cruises. Mm-hmm,

[00:27:25] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:27:25] Amber: And I do them about three to four times a year, it depends. But I talk in the class and I say, "Look, I, what I'm telling you are suggestions. You know yourself better," all of that.

And sometimes even the things I'm telling you, I don't always do them myself. Oh

[00:27:41] Dr. Nicole: my God,

[00:27:41] Amber: yeah. I'm not the perfect-

[00:27:43] Dr. Nicole: No ...

[00:27:44] Amber: person to have sex with. I am not the perfect student, so please just do as you feel and take what you want from this. Like- Yeah ... you don't have to look at this like this is the manual.

Mm-hmm. It's not. I don't even follow my own rules sometimes. Mm-hmm. And that's okay.

[00:28:01] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. We're all human, right? And that's important to really understand that. And it's, it, I think it makes people connect to you more, right? Because you start to look at people like you or people like me, and you're like, "Well, Dr.

Nicole has it all figured out, right? All figured." It's like, no. We can be experts, and part of our m- mess is the magic of it all, right? Is that we're- Yes ... going through it too and exploring it. Um, part of our wisdom comes from the questions that we find in our own life where we're like, "Oh, shit, I'm still asking this deep question.

Am I, am I performing here in this?" Mm-hmm. And we just keep going deeper. I think I, I like that metaphor sometimes with the spiral. Like, it's not like we've, like, gotten out of the spiral. We're just, like, much deeper in it. And so we're- Yeah ... we're thinking about things, having looked at it multiple evolutions around that circle, but we're still in it, 'cause I'm still just a human being.

And if I'm really stressed out about my clients and my caseload and my podcast, I can't come either, folks. Although sometimes if you put that magic wand on the full vibration- ... that thing that thing will bring anything out of me. You're like, "I come." Yeah, exactly. You know, at that point, anything's coming out.

But, like, I don't know how I feel about doing that to my body when I'm really stressed, like, gr, like, come.

[00:29:18] Amber: Yes.

[00:29:19] Dr. Nicole: It's like, I don't know.

[00:29:19] Amber: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've actually... Like, it's, it's funny you're, you're touching on this because- ... I have been, like, implementing the idea of, like, masturbating more- Mm-hmm

because I also- Yeah ... am someone that, like, it's the last thing on my mind type of thing. Mm. Yeah. And I was actually really inspired by a friend, 'cause I have a friend who's constant, and she'll, like, text me. She'll be like, "I just masturbated in the bathroom at work." And I'm like-

[00:29:41] Dr. Nicole: Nice ... "You- Hot ...

[00:29:42] Amber: animal. I love you."

Yeah. Hot. "This is incredible." Yes. Like, when I say, "You animal," I mean it in the best way. Yeah. I'm like, "You are free. Like, you are liberated." Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, "You are doing it."

[00:29:52] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:52] Amber: And, um, so her just kind of being like this more has inspired me. And so even sometimes where I'm like... Sometimes you get the urge, but you're like, "I have got things to do."

Yeah. "I don't really want to." Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, you know what? Go get in the bed and- Listen ... just sit in the bed. Do it. If you wanna sit in the bed and work-

[00:30:08] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:30:08] Amber: then sit in the bed and work, and then eventually the toy creeps closer, and this creeps, this c- Like, it starts coming, and then eventually you find yourself doing it and you're like, "Okay."

But I'm trying to will my orgasms- Yeah ... because I'm, like, masturbating for so long, then I'm, like, overthinking that. Mm. And so now as of- Right ... like, yesterday, I was like, you are going to have an orgasm in three, but, like, slow breathing it. So I'm like, three. Mm. Inhale, two. Yeah. You know, another big inhale.

Yeah. And one, and it's- It's worked. Amazing So I don't think it'll be a 10 for 10 all the time, but it is- Yeah ... kind of nice 'cause it reminds you that if you really want to align and connect with your body, I don't think you should always force it. Right. But sometimes you have more control than you think.

[00:30:52] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm hearing the importance of, one, the breath. I mean, what a, what a powerful tool, tool when we're orgasming in terms of expanding that. I- that's something I'm always trying to stretch more and more into and inviting my clients, when we are in that state of ecstasy, can you really feel your breath, and can you stretch it even further?

Can you breathe more? Mm-hmm. Sometimes we're holding way too much. And the importance of not waiting for desire. I, I... We can always preface this with the big asterisk of don't force yourself. And also, there are many areas in our life where we know that we might not have the desire, but once we start doing it, we enjoy it.

For me, a big example of that is yoga or working out often, moving my body. Sometimes I'm like, "Ugh, I don't wanna go to the yoga cla- ugh, you know, ugh, ugh." And then I get on the mat and I'm like, "Oh, this does feel good." And then I get out and I'm feeling orgasmic. I'm like, "Wow, that-" Yes ... "that movement was so good."

And so I think that's important, too, when we look at our pleasure in other areas. You know, like maybe that masturbation, you're like, "Oh gosh, I don't have the time. I don't have the time." But when you sit down, you start doing it, you're gonna get there, right? And so- Yeah ... rather than waiting for desire, what if we just talk about it as pleasure?

Like, can we experience pleasure with this? Can we tap into instead of waiting, waiting, waiting, right? That's a huge reframe. And, um, for me, I had processed this a little bit with Empress Wu, and they were great. They gave me some feedback on this where, um, you know, for these conversations when I record with you, it's too, like, t- we have a set time when we start this, right?

But for my intros for the episodes, I've been, for the last year, when this comes out, a year and a half, I've been orgasming every single intro. Oh. And then I come to the mic, like I swear to God, it's like come, and then I come to the mic and I'm like, "On today's episode..." And it is fascinating. Now, you do that for a year- And your orgasm practice starts to become production, which Empress Wu was like, "It's like you're having, um, sex for conceptualization, but it's your business," right?

So like now I've gotten to the space where like for months I didn't touch myself in a play way at all, at all. Mm. 'Cause I was like, "Oh, that's for the business. I should save that for when I'm interviewing my podcast." And it's like really dangerous in that sense, 'cause now I've classically- Yeah

conditioned myself. So I've been really now working on that, of like, "Okay, Nicole, your orgasm..." You know, it was one thing to first do that and be like, "Wow, this is for my business. How edgy." And now I'm like, "You gotta get out of this, girl. You gotta get out." 'Cause now it's too production focused, you know?

It's wild the classical conditioning that we do for ourselves.

[00:33:25] Amber: Yes, 100... It's actually interesting that you talk about that because when I first started to do sex work and I was- Mm-hmm ... like putting myself in the mindset of this, 'cause a lot of people ask me, they're like, "How can you sleep with older-"

[00:33:37] Dr. Nicole: Mm

[00:33:38] Amber: men?" Especially when you're 18, 19, 20. You know, like- Sure ... when you're in this phase.

[00:33:43] Dr. Nicole: Got

[00:33:43] Amber: it. And I took the most sexper or, like- ... neuro, like, type of vibe. And it was basically I was like, "I'm going to look for, like, porn and videos that have young women my age and older men." And obviously this is not what a typical session would look like and so on, but-

[00:34:02] Dr. Nicole: Right

[00:34:03] Amber: I was doing this so that way I would have an orgasm and positively associate-

[00:34:10] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:34:10] Amber: these, the visual of this type of man that I was sleeping with, so that way I was at least, like, primed and feeling orgasmic and that I could. And it did help. Oh, absolutely. It was that classical conditioning, you know? And I was creating those neural pathways and those alignments with that.

[00:34:28] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:28] Amber: But it did work. I mean, I don't suggest it to do it in a way like I did.

[00:34:33] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:34:34] Amber: But, you know.

[00:34:36] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I mean-

[00:34:36] Amber: It, it still worked ...

[00:34:37] Dr. Nicole: it's about expanding your capacities for pleasure, right? And so I know when I was first stepping into more, like, queer, diverse bodies, even seeing, you know, at... You can't see my armpits, but I have armpit hair now and I feel like really great about not having to like shave that area of my body.

I mean, if I want to, I do, but usually I just let it grow out now, and it's, it feels really great to not be like constantly monitoring that when I go to the gym of like, "Do I have the smallest bit of stubble? Oh my God." Uh, but when I first was watching more queer porn, like, I was not attracted to seeing hair on the body like that.

I was like, "Ugh." And I had this moment where I was like, "I think I should keep watching this to expand new connections in my body," right? And so it, it, it does. And I think for that person who's, like, wanting to feel more erotically aligned with different areas, you can expand your horizons with different sorts of content and pairing that and exploring and playing with it.

Yeah

[00:35:32] Amber: I think this touches on, like, when we talk about ethical pornography or like- Yeah ... the visibility in all of this. That's why it matters. Oh, my God, yeah. And that's also why people get put in a box- Yeah ... and pleasure gets put in a box- Yeah ... and who can experience and who's beautiful. I mean, we all know the impact of something like media, and your words are powerful.

You know, your words are spells. Mm-hmm. The things that we're having around ourselves, we are absorbing that. Yep. And as much as we know that, sometimes we even blind ourselves to that. And so I always challenge people to utilize that for the better, and that touches on, like, pleasure mapping or when we get into things like manifestation with masturbation, pleasure, orgasm.

They're all really powerful. Like, when I masturbate, I'm only listening to music with people singing things that I want to bring into my life. Mm-hmm. And I think that this is so important. I don't wanna listen to a song about someone crying over their ex. I don't wanna think about my ex. I don't wanna even...

I don't even believe in thinking about someone that I used to sleep with anymore. Yeah. Because I, if I say their name, if I think about them, like, I'm exerting energy, energy to them. Yeah. And actually, like, I, I find myself still, like, strung up on my situationship. So yesterday when I was masturbating, I was like, "I call my energy back to me."

Yeah. Like, I call it back. I am no longer obsessed. I'm no longer interested. I don't want to think of this person anymore. Like, let them go, and, like, love myself again. And sometimes we gotta do that.

[00:37:07] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, and that's really wise. I mean, you're really taking authorship over your internal space, right?

Yeah. I think that's such an important thing when I work with clients. I think about the empowerment, whether it's with sex therapy or general therapy or the psychedelic therapy. It's really about knowing that you're not your thoughts, right? All those thoughts are happening, but you're the observer, and the second that you have that moment, you get to decide, do I wanna write a new narrative or listen to the old one?

And so that second that you say, like, "Hey, I'm calling back my energy, and I'm no longer extending- Mm-hmm ... myself to think about these people, these last relationships," the hard part is that doesn't mean that the thought might not pop up again, 'cause we're fucking human beings, and it comes back. Mm-hmm. But then you say again, "I'm calling back my energy."

And then I can promise you that when you practice that, there will be a day- Yep ... where that thought is so far, right? And that's really also the building blocks of pleasure. I've worked with clients who feel so far gone from any sense of pleasure, and it's like you start in these small moments. What if you experience pleasure for just one breath?

Mm-hmm. That's it. That's it. The monkey mind can come back and think and think and think, but for just this breath

Like, can you feel that exhale, right? And then you just keep doing it, and it becomes a lifelong practice really.

[00:38:29] Amber: Yes. Yes. And even I have extended pleasure out from sexual pleasure. Oh, yeah. I'm deriving pleasure from my- Yes ... being in myself, which then pours into my sexual self. So I am a triple Libra.

Mm-hmm. So I love beauty, and pretty, and femme, and pink and glitter. Like, if I could live in Barbie world, if we all could live in Barbie world- ... like, that's my... I watched that movie and I was like, "That is how the world should be." Like- Let's talk about death ... we're all Barbie. Yeah. See, I was like, I was... I would've been her who would've been like, "Can we just keep the high heel?"

Like, I don't, I don't know.

[00:39:06] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, I'm definitely messed up Barbie with the hair. Like, and I'm like, "This is my podcast land. We talk about all of it."

[00:39:12] Amber: You're like, "You're taking the Birkenstock. You're taking it." I

[00:39:15] Dr. Nicole: have Birkenstocks and Doc Martens. That's what I live in. That's what I live in. I'm gay, you know?

Like, that Barbie is so gay, it's so obvious.

[00:39:24] Amber: I'm so exactly with that. Like, that's how I like to... Like, if you go into my bedroom, it's, like, little heart lights, and I tie ribbons- Mm-hmm ... on all of the doorknobs in my house, you know? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Like, it's very much embodying Barbie world. Yeah. Like, you can't even really see on this window, too.

It's like, it's supposed to look like stained glass on my window- Oh, beautiful ... so I have rainbows. I mean, it's quite.

[00:39:43] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:39:44] Amber: So now what I do, like a practice that I have, especially, like, as I'm aging, you know, as, like, a woman who is navigating that space, you know, being told- Yeah ... your value. Oh, God. And you see, like, your face change- Oh, God.

Yeah ... your body change. Yeah. And of course, I'm learning to overcome those things, but I'm also learning to love them in, in- Not necessarily treating them, but like treating myself. So I buy like a one euro face mask. I don't buy the expensive ones. I buy the one euro face mask from Primark or from TJ Maxx when I go to the US, and I do a face mask every Wednesday.

Mm-hmm. And I do like a little gua sha massage.

[00:40:22] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:40:22] Amber: And that, I look forward to it every Wednesday, and I have kept the practice for at least two years now. Wow. Probably more. I can't even remember when I started. And I notice a difference in my skin, in my face and everything like that. It's true, like everything looks great.

I actually didn't do one today, and I can see it in my skin. But I'm also like, it's okay. Like, it's fine. Yeah. It's not a big deal. If I can't do it on Wednesdays, I am always happy to move it because I like to do it on a day where I have at least like an hour, 'cause I let it sit. Yeah. I relax. I listen to good music.

Yeah. I think. I wanna sit in the sunlight. Like, I really wanna like bask in it, and it's like my hour. Mm. And then it, it turns into something bigger. It turns into feeling good. It turns into feeling beautiful. And when I look at my face and I do the lymphatic massage, like I look so far into my eyes. Mm. I am saying, you know, like, "You're beautiful, you're great, you're confident," and really affirming.

Mm. And of course it was so lame at first because you have to-

[00:41:23] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Right ...

[00:41:24] Amber: overcome that hurdle.

[00:41:26] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:41:26] Amber: But once you do, you're like, "Yes." Yes. "You are amazing. Queen energy." Mm-hmm. "Nothing is better than you and you..." I feel it, and I, I- Yeah ... really feel like I embody it. So it's a practice that I recommend to everyone, or whatever the, the non-sexual facial is for you.

Either way- Absolutely ... you have the one euro Primark mask.

[00:41:46] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. I'm so glad that you offer yourself that time, and that you're really speaking to the transformation of our neuronal connections. It is really hard at first because it's a connection that we have not made yet. If you don't often talk to yourself in the mirror of, "Wow, you're so beautiful," then truly that neuronal pathway is not used.

And good, bad, or otherwise, the pathways that we do use, those get myelinated, which, uh, allows for more conduction. It's kind of like the electrical wiring with, um, with electricity, right? It makes it travel- Yeah ... faster and, and stays more there. So with all that extra myelin on the, the neuronal pathways you're already using, like say it's a negative pathway, that thought actually travels so much faster because it's used so much more.

And so if you're trying to switch to the pathway of, "I'm beautiful. Look at how gorgeous my skin is. I am aging and transforming, and I'm loving the process of that-" Yeah ... right? Like, that is a whole new pathway, and it's really uncomfortable. Like learning to ride a bike or a new instrument, you're, like, fiddling around, like, what is this?

But there is that day where you fully get to it, and this is something that I'm always talking about in my pleasure liberation groups, 'cause I run two group offerings each year with- Mm-hmm ... relationships in the fall and sexuality in the spring. And in both group processes, I always have a discussion of the principles of pleasure.

And the reality is that if you wanna have a hot, great sex life, it is not like you get to just live your life, going to work, doing your thing, and then flip on the switch and pleasure just becomes abundant in your bedroom, if that's where you wanna fuck, right? It is not like that. You have to tap into pleasure in all areas of your life, which means can you feel...

Like, for me, I'm wearing silk right now 'cause that's what I like to wear, and it feels nice. Like, can you feel the fabric on your skin? Can you feel the hair on your body? Can you feel that food that you're taking that really deep bite of? Can you really taste it? Can you feel your breath, right? And if all of those things are like, "No, Dr.

Nicole, what are you talking about?" well, then that's gonna show up in your sex life. You're not gonna- Yes ... feel that penetration. You're not gonna feel that lover's touch. You're not gonna feel all these sweet things because it's not a switch that you just flip. It is a lifelong practice that begins in all areas of your life.

[00:43:59] Amber: Yeah, 100%. Yeah. And I always tell people, start the journey, fall off the wagon- Oh, yeah ... get back on, you know? Because that's the other thing, right? Is you're like, "I skipped a week. I didn't do my face mask." Oh, yeah. "Ah, fuck it. It's over." Oh, yeah. Or, "I didn't, I didn't sit and do the affirmations. All right, whatever."

Mm-hmm. It's, we can always find an excuse not to, and of course, that's so human. I think people really are like, yeah, but just get back up. Maybe you gotta take two weeks off. Take two weeks off if you need to. But if you can try to get there, or if you, you're really finding a hard time to get back there, then find somewhere that's easier.

Take a smaller step. Maybe it's not the face masks. Maybe it's not the, I don't know, like, the food type of thing. Mm-hmm. Maybe it really is just, like, sitting in the bed with yourself.

[00:44:44] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:44:44] Amber: Sitting in the bed naked. Yeah. You know, like, whatever it is and whatever that looks like. Like, taking those kind of slow steps, and that's a lot of what I find myself teaching.

And it was actually hard for me a lot when I was, like, a baby sex educator because I just felt like, well, everyone has this knowledge. Mm. Like, everyone knows and every- You know, I'm not teaching anyone anything new, and I think a lot of my work is just affirming people, one, that you're normal. Yeah. And the other half is, like, that- It's okay, and we're human, and, and trying and failing and not wanting to do something, and self-sabotage, these are all parts of, like, pleasure practice.

It is.

[00:45:22] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:45:22] Amber: Yeah. Like, it's not the core component, but it's the human component. That's the hard part, and that's the part- Right ... that's very much been inundated since we were young to be and to think, and you're going against generational trauma, cultural trauma, like all of the things. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm,

[00:45:37] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:45:38] Amber: And you really have to make that choice, but that choice is gonna look and feel different every day, every moment. Right. It'll change from year to year, like- Oh, yeah ... week to week. It's always evolving, and so don't be so strict. It's not a diet. It's not- Yeah ... a, a workout routine. You don't have to have this many reps and up your weight this amount.

[00:46:00] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:00] Amber: It's not like that. It really is a lot more flexible and flow and feeling, and breath. Breath is so important, too.

[00:46:08] Dr. Nicole: Right. 'Cause the flow is part of the pleasure, right? Like, again- Mm-hmm ... the discipline is, I respect the folks who come from that space, but you're so right. Discipline, yeah. Like, like, uh, just being human and going with the flow is an important part of that as well.

Because if you keep yourself to such a s- a structured routine, which we know in psychology that, like, if you try to do abstinence or, like, always perfection, we often fall off. Yeah. We have to start with some sort of smaller step first. Um, but yeah, if, if you have this routine and then you fall off, usually it starts that cascading spiral of, "I'm so broken.

I never stay- Yep ... connected to anything. I have these blank, blank, blank diagnoses. I'm so broken," all this. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And it's like, if we could've just paused that whole narrative and said, "It's okay. I'm human. I'll try again tomorrow," right? Like, look at all that energy that you just recalled back to yourself and are going into the other side, right?

You talked about affirmations. I, I have this affirmation that I say to myself, not every day, right, 'cause I'm a human being. Yeah. Uh, you know, I like to, but not every day. Um, and one of the, the sayings in there is that, um, "There is only this next moment and how I choose to meet it." Mm-hmm. And every time I say that I'm like- That's pretty

oh yeah, that's so true, right? Like right now I could continue to spiral and spiral and spiral and spiral, or I could say, "Wow, this is my moment to author my narrative, and I'm powerful, and I'm beautiful, and I'm creating the life that I want to make." And oh- Yeah ... those are two different energies. And in one I'm smiling and happy and of course crying too, but in the other one I am not okay.

I'm just spiraling and spiraling deeper and deeper and deeper. And it's like that moment of enlightenment where you get to choose that pathway is so, so important.

[00:47:54] Amber: Yeah. And I think it's important to fuck up and to fail a little bit. Like I said, like I was having sex and I was like, "Why am I doing this?

Why did I just grit through this?"

[00:48:03] Dr. Nicole: Yeah,

[00:48:04] Amber: yeah. And it, I'm the person, I'm the person that people look to to be inspired and empowered and this and that. And as I said, I am human too. And I think this is also a really important component of our work, and a thing that I like to really bring to the table a lot is just this ownership of I'm just a regular person.

Yeah. And, yeah, this is what I chose to like hyper fixate on. Yeah. And like work into and stuff like that.

[00:48:30] Dr. Nicole: And you know stuff. But- Let's be clear. I know stuff.

[00:48:34] Amber: You know stuff. I do know stuff, but it doesn't mean I do stuff.

[00:48:37] Dr. Nicole: Right,

[00:48:38] Amber: exactly. And like, like I know, but I don't do it. You know? Yeah. Like I know I should knead this, but sometimes you just, you just be doing what you, what you're not supposed to be doing.

I know.

[00:48:48] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Um, I write a, a pleasure activist newsletter, so dear listener if you wanna follow it, it's on my website. You can find it all there. And, I know, right? I got, I'm getting better at that, 'cause at first I'm like, "Oh, cringe." Like, "Oh, God, she's plugging," but it's like- No,

[00:49:03] Amber: you have to

[00:49:04] Dr. Nicole: I

[00:49:04] Amber: make- Resources

[00:49:05] Dr. Nicole: and I make free resources about powerful things, so yeah, go follow my newsletter dear listener. It's amazing.

[00:49:11] Amber: Yeah.

[00:49:11] Dr. Nicole: And so when I was writing it, uh, I was talking about, you know, the holidays are coming up as we're recording right now, and of the stress of the holidays, and I was talking about eroticism and stress and how the body can really n- I don't wanna say shut down.

I wanna say respond appropriately to the stress that you're experiencing- Mm-hmm ... which is to really be tight and closed and bracing, right? Which is what happens when stress is around. And I was thinking about times, uh, where I've done like pelvic floor therapy, right? Because I've been so stressed that my, truly- Yeah

my vulva is so, so tight. And I was sitting there writing the letter and I was like If I include this, will people not respect me as the therapist who knows things because I once struggled? And I was like, "No, fuck that shit. That's so horrific." And that's a- Yeah ... that's a, you, I mean, you know in the professional way aca- It's a real thought

uh, yeah, in the academic ivory tower field is very like, "We have the clients and then the doctors." And so it's, it's really- Yeah ... problematic. And so I was like, "Absolutely not. I'm gonna put it in there." And the right clients will be like, "Thank you for being human and being honest that your pussy was too tight for penetration too, and it hurt."

And it did hurt, you know? You gotta relax. Yeah.

[00:50:22] Amber: Yeah.

[00:50:23] Dr. Nicole: It's

[00:50:23] Amber: another big thing, like, in my, my work as well. I think that... 'Cause people always ask, you know, "How did you fall into this?" Mm. And I just felt like-

[00:50:30] Dr. Nicole: Sure ...

[00:50:30] Amber: I had this natural proclivity. But the biggest thing that I think made me successful is the fact that I am shameless in the way I talk- Yeah

about sex, and I also make people feel comfortable. You know, like, I'm working for a dating app now called the Pure app, and it's a dating application. It's supposed to be like spicy, hookups, fun. Yeah. You know, more like carefree type of thing. It's not necessarily where you'll meet your life partner, but a...

I mean, there are people who do meet their life partner there. Totally. But the, the general concept is it's supposed to just kind of be like, have a little fun. Yeah. Like, get on Pure. We're not full of ads and all of this. But I was having a dinner with my coworkers, and we're all kind of fully remote, so we were meeting for the first time, and I'm sharing stories, I'm making jokes, whatever Yeah, yeah And I, as I said, like, I'm super femme, so you know, I'm coming in the office-

and I'm wearing boots, like boots to the, my thighs, and short skirts, and it's Berlin, and it's winter- Yeah ... and it's freezing, and I'm like, "I don't dress for the weather, I dress for the vibes." And this is my vibe. So I'm like weather-inappropriate with the big red hair. Like- Yeah ... usually I, I wear extensions with glitter in them, so I'm like, I look like a drag, like a drag queen, basically.

Yeah. And everyone is so vulnerable and sharing, and people who in the workplace were adamant of like, "I work here, but this isn't me, this isn't my vibe. I would never, da, da, da, da, da," they got to a point where they were like, "I wanna go around the table and I want everyone to share a story, and I'm gonna start."

And I was just so... Like, this is the cycle and this is the thing that I really love, that I feel I bring out of people, and this energy. It's that of people truly feel so comfortable, and they even said it to me. They were like, "Yeah, of course you come in this like high glam look, whatever, but you're really down to earth and you're so non-judgmental.

I don't think any of us could, say anything, one, that compares to the crazy stories that you have." But two, that, that where... 'Cause e- I was explaining to them, I was like, "Yeah, okay, I'll tell you a story about how I fucked my Uber driver yesterday when we got dropped off at the office." Yeah. But- ... I, I was like, I like spicy food, but every meal doesn't have to be spicy.

Just 'cause I hear your story- Right ... and it, you know, it tastes like scrambled eggs, it doesn't mean I don't like it.

[00:52:48] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:52:49] Amber: I love a brunch, you know? Like, I don't have anything wrong. I love some eggs. Put some hot rice in there, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I am into it. I don't, it doesn't taste- less to me just because it's not me or it's not my extreme or my being.

And so I think that's a lot of what I really try to bring into the space as an educator, and what I really try to touch on with people. And what we're saying here of just that human, of like whatever is your spicy can be your spicy. Yeah. As long as it's not the food I have to consume, I don't mind. Yeah.

You know? I'm not gonna complain.

[00:53:20] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm, and you're creating the space where people feel more able to be themselves and share their stories. I think that's a huge part of any sort of pleasure liberation, right? Because- Exactly ... everything we know in clinical psychology is that our communities form our sense of self and what we consider to be normal.

When you look at cross-cultural research, I remember you talking about that when we checked in about your TED Talk, right? Like, there's so many different- Mm-hmm ... cultural narratives around sexuality. And so if your community of folks that you're with feels uncomfortable, one, to talk about pleasure in general, first off, first off.

There are a lot of communities that connect, "God, it's so horrible. It's so horrible. Life is horrible. It's horrible, horrible, horrible." And don't get me wrong, there are horrible things happening in the world right now, so I'm not here- Of course ... to, like, ignore any of that, of course. And also, what are the joys that we're finding under these systems, right?

So, like, just pleasure in general, let alone sexuality. If you're a group of people, you tell them a story and they all cringe and look at you like you're crazy, you're gonna feel like you're crazy. And so you need the spaces, people who are tuning in, podcasts, right? The beautiful thing- Right now, we're inside people's ears and vibrating through their bodies.

I love knowing that. Like, I'm

[00:54:35] Amber: like- Wow, hello ... that's such a beautiful way to look at it. That's so powerful.

[00:54:38] Dr. Nicole: Isn't it?

[00:54:38] Amber: I actually love that.

[00:54:40] Dr. Nicole: Yeah,

[00:54:40] Amber: yeah.

[00:54:40] Dr. Nicole: Like,

[00:54:41] Amber: that's so high, hi- high vibration, like, community connection. Like, wow, I lo- that's really- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ... I love that.

[00:54:47] Dr. Nicole: You're oscillating through people's bodies right now.

It's fun. I know, I'm honored. Yes. Hello, dear listener. Yeah. We're happy you're here, right?

[00:54:54] Amber: Yeah. We both are touching our heart like, "I can't believe-" Yeah, we're like,

[00:54:57] Dr. Nicole: wow, wow ...

[00:54:58] Amber: I'm inside you. No,

[00:55:00] Dr. Nicole: I'm just kidding. Exactly. No, but actually. Like, the person who's listening, like, we're actually inside. And so when we giggle and we're like, "Oh, yeah, I orgasm.

I fucked my Uber driver. I had this, I had that," like, it is creating a world for me and you, of course, and then all of the listeners who are like, "Oh, I could have a tight pussy and it's okay. Oh, I could fuck my-" Yeah ... "Uber driver and it's okay. Oh, I could fall off the pleasure practice and it's okay," right?

Like, all of that creates the container for your psyche to, to be able to grow and expand more because you know you're not alone. You're not the only one that goes through these things.

[00:55:33] Amber: Yeah, that's it. And I think that's the biggest thing when it really comes to pleasures. There's just this stigma that no one is experiencing or doing or struggling, and we all totally are.

And it's getting harder now with things like AI. Like, you keep but talking about your resources. It's also important to be like these are resources from a trusted source.

[00:55:55] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:55:55] Amber: These are resources that are, you know, backed by education, by science, by lived exper- you know? Like, there's- Yeah ... this other component that I think people forget now because they're, they have everything in their phones, so they're like, "Well, I can Google it or I can look it up or I can watch it somewhere."

But going back to what we were saying about the power of media or that external stimulus-

[00:56:14] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:56:15] Amber: it can make a difference whatever you're consuming, whether it's your own thoughts, whether it's someone else's judgments, whatever it may be. So it is important to take... When you find someone you align with, when you find someone you click with- Continue with that.

Continue with that logic. Start looking into their space. Expand your thought process. Like, really bring that about because you will be able to harness and, and manifest that energy for yourself as well.

[00:56:42] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, currently a lot of the AI stuff really freaks out about sex.

It's like, "Pfft, that's beyond my guidelines." Yeah. And so I'm like, okay, I know that's not gonna be forever. I've already heard that some... a lot of them are pushing more into that space and creating, um, even more, like, digital partners and stuff like that. And so, like- Yeah ... it's gonna be a fascinating time to be an educator in this space in terms of all of that.

But it, it's interesting how, you know, like, that space still doesn't provide, like, yeah, like as you're saying, grounded, lived experience of what it's like. Like, the AI will never know what it feels like to be fallible as a human and have the things that we're speaking to, and to still get up after that and not be like- Yeah

"Oh, well I'm a broken pleasure activist. I can't do this anymore," right? Like, that is a unique experience that is inherently human that no- Mm-hmm ... amount of artificial intelligence will ever walk. Even if they say, "Oh, well, when you're human this," you, you can feel when you meet with someone, as we're meeting with each other- Yes

and look in each other's eyes and going, "Oh, yeah, I've been there." Like, you will not get that sense of, like, true connection and humanness that you get with people.

[00:57:54] Amber: No, no, I totally agree Yeah And it, like, this also touches on, like, who's creating that, like those media- Yeah, sure ... literacy principles too. You know?

Like, maybe you feel as though you're feeling something, but we're al- we also have to remember, like, this is a capitalist state. You know? Like, this isn't ethical and, and who knows. Yeah. So, like, kind of keeping that mindfulness and, like, staying grounded because people ask about AI now, and people are asking, especially, like, working in the dating app space- Mm

currently.

[00:58:22] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:58:22] Amber: The places that I've worked haven't worked with AI. Mm-hmm. And but, I mean, it's a topic every day of like, "Will you? Won't you?" Like, now I think it's on one of the dating... I can't remember which app, but one of the apps, like, you can have AI prompts help you, and I was talking to my coworkers about it at the app I work for, Pure, and I was like, "This is the downfall-" Mm

because you're not even at that point making an effort to even communicate to someone anymore. Like now- No ... if I have AI u- utilizing algorithms, knowledge, who knows what on the back end to then talk to me, to prime me for that first date- ... with you, and then I have to sit across from- Mm ... a table with you, and you can't sh- I don't know.

It's just really, it's so interesting. But a lot of people are for it. They're like, "Well, you know, it helps. Like, what if you're really, really shy and you can't think of something?" And I'm like, "Yeah, I get it, but I don't know, everything's kind of, like, intrinsically evil these days." Yeah. Like, I don't know.

[00:59:23] Dr. Nicole: Right, like the environmental impacts. Where's that data going? Who's getting access- Yep ... to that? As well as even just- Who's creating

[00:59:30] Amber: the prompts, answers-

[00:59:31] Dr. Nicole: Right ...

[00:59:31] Amber: responses, you know?

[00:59:34] Dr. Nicole: All of it. All of it. It's terrifying. Let alone the, um, gratification in terms of the dopamine pathways of how fast it returns a response, which is not human.

You know, you- Yeah ... you ask it a question, it's like ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba. Like, our, our brains start to get really set in with like, "Oh, I can ask a question and get an instant response." So now say you're in a relationship and there's a moment of attachment fear where you're like Mm. You text your partner, and they don't respond for hours.

Like, how are you going to psychologically go through even just the hours when you get so used to AI, which is like- Yeah ... right there whenever you want it? You need crisis? Right there whenever you need it. All of that's... I mean, it is- fascinating. Like, I am fascinated- Yeah ... what this is gonna do to our, our psyches, and I think a lot of it's gonna be bad for, like, human-to-human connection.

[01:00:21] Amber: I agree. It's so- Yeah ... I, I think it'll be like everything, you know? Like, people will binge on it, and then it will- And then throw up. Yeah. ... come out of fashion. Yeah, exactly. It's like now, like everything was digital, right? Like when I was a kid it was like we were moving out of the film into the digital cameras, and on your phone- Yeah, yeah, yeah

and this, that, and the other, and now it's, like, stylish to have- Polaroids ... a film camera. yeah. Polaroids. So it's like everything kinda comes back. Like, now I'm, I'm seeing Razor, Razor phones everywhere. Oh, good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, the millennial joy is coming back, everyone's saying. Like, I've been seeing-

TikTok trends where people are like, "Wow, if I was a millennial in 2010 living in, like, Flatbush in Brooklyn- Yeah ... like listening to Foster the People, I would be like peak existence." My Walkman.

[01:01:04] Dr. Nicole: My one CD.

[01:01:06] Amber: Love it. It's so funny, and it's so interesting how we really, like, idolize all this stuff. But I don't, I don't know.

Who knows? And who knows by the time this comes out, like we could be... E- everything we're saying could be so antiquated in terms of AI- I know. I know ... by that point, 'cause the way it's moving, honestly- Yeah ... we could just... It could be a big joke at this point.

[01:01:25] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah. Let's hold our breath. Dear God, pray.

You know? Please. Um-

[01:01:33] Amber: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I will say ways I've been, like, combating is, like, journaling, obviously staying away- I'm sure ... from the phone. Yeah, yeah. Like, I write for the dating app I work for. I write, like, by hand, which I feel like- Yeah ... the people are like, "I can't believe you don't use AI to, to write out your, your papers."

But I do- Mm ... like an Ask Pure, so people can submit questions- Sure ... and I answer, and I write everything out, and I actually really enjoy it. Like, I just put in some really soft alpha waves music.

[01:01:59] Dr. Nicole: Great.

[01:02:00] Amber: Beautiful. And spend like an hour just...

[01:02:02] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:02:03] Amber: And it's nice. It's nice to- Nice ... not always have, like, meta's advice and meta's magic and...

You know? Yeah,

[01:02:09] Dr. Nicole: yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. You get to get into your flow, as you named. Mm-hmm. Right? And so it sounds like you're having multiple different areas of your professional work, right? Whether it's working for the app, working for writing the newsletter for the app, or these cruises that you're done, which I, I definitely wanna get to in terms of the people on the cruises.

We kind of ran past that, 'cause there's so much to talk about.

[01:02:34] Amber: I know. We're- And- ... like, in such a deep philosophical moment, but yes,

[01:02:37] Dr. Nicole: let's- No, I love it. I mean, it's, it's great. It's great. I mean, I will say I, um, I recorded with one of the CEOs of, uh, Ashley Madison- What's that? And- I'm so curious ... it was a fascinating...

At first, when I first got the email from them of wanting to come on the show, I was like, "Oh, God, do I, do I bring this onto... I don't, I don't know, you know? I don't know." And then all my friends were like, "Nicole, this is a journalistic opportunity. You go for it. You go for it." Do it.

[01:03:11] Amber: Apply.

[01:03:11] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly. And I was like, so I did.

I was like, "Okay, come on. Let's do this." And guess where they had the most users in the entire United States?

[01:03:22] Amber: Oh, of course it's, like, Bible Belt, no doubt in my mind.

[01:03:25] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, it's Utah.

[01:03:26] Amber: Yeah. I believe it. Yeah. That's, it's always... It's, I mean, all the studies show that. They say the people who are the most homophobic turn out to be the gayest people.

The gayest, yeah. Like, it really, it really is true. Like, it's... That, and that's another thing of, like, the self-hate, or, like, if you really find yourself hating someone, like, I've, I've been told before, like, if you really don't like someone, it's probably 'cause they're, like, reflecting something that you do that you don't like- Mm-hmm

about yourself- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ... and that's why you have this disdain. And it's not always true, but sometimes I do think twice. I'm like, "But-

[01:04:00] Dr. Nicole: What is this? Yeah ...

[01:04:01] Amber: but why don't I like them?"

[01:04:02] Dr. Nicole: Uh-huh, that's wise. Very wise curiosity to have.

[01:04:06] Amber: Yeah.

[01:04:07] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. Exactly.

[01:04:09] Amber: But yeah, people's self-loathing will definitely overcome a lot in the pleasure space as well.

Like, get right in your own way.

[01:04:16] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. I think that often comes from the amount of restriction they hold for themselves, and it's so tight, so tight, so tight, so tight, that when they see someone else in their liberation, they're like, "How dare you not have the shackles that I have? This is horrific."

Yeah. Right? And it's like, well, what if you just released yourself? No, I could never. You know? It's like, okay, well, wishing you good luck on your pleasure journey. Goodbye. Like-

[01:04:41] Amber: Yeah ... it was like, whoa. I saw someone speaking about why, like, heterosexual, especially, like, white conservative men really hate gay men but not gay women, right?

Mm. And I mean, there's layers to this, right? Because there's the subjectification- Right ... the sexualization- Right ... of, like, this body and so on. But there was this other layer that really was an interesting point of conversation, where they said that these conservative, like, manosphere men look over at a gay man who is liberated, and they're pissed, or even a trans man, because they're like...

Well, a trans woman, they're looking at them and they're saying, "You- Had all the privilege, and you squandered, in their opinion, squandered it-

[01:05:26] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[01:05:27] Amber: to then live authentically, you need to be in shackles and imprisoned like I am.

[01:05:33] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:05:33] Amber: You know? And that is where the real, like, vitriol and hate comes from.

It's that, like- Yeah ... how dare you give all of this up to then be happy and to be free? You need to be miserable- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ... in power like the rest of us type of thing. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And I really feel like that's a line and that's true.

[01:05:52] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah. And I find it so fascinating to think about the unconscious.

At first, when I first, when I first went into clinical psychology, I was like, "I don't wanna talk about the unconscious and these things that pull at us. That's just blah, blah, blah." But the more I get into it, I'm like, I think there's a lot of unconscious stuff like that, 'cause if you ask that question- Yeah

do you think that's what ha- what is happening? They'd be like, "No, I'm just a man." Of course. "And I believe in God." Yeah. But if you really get underneath it, you're like, yeah, that's pretty, pretty clear, friend. But I just don't think... A lot of us have so much unconscious stuff, right? Yeah. And I know I do, too.

We all do, right? So we're all just waking up at different points in the journey here. So again, like we said, we're human. We both have those things, too. Of course. But some people, you can really see it in them. You're like, "Wow, you're like in so many boxes, and if you could just- Yeah ... step outside, you'd see that it's pretty cool out here."

[01:06:45] Amber: Yeah. Um- Discipline can be debilitating. Yeah. Like, when you are so regimented, it really can tear you up, and this kind of touches on, like, when we were discussing the cruises before we got on here- Yeah ... of just these cruises are... So I work for a swingers cruise company called Desire Cruises. Mm-hmm. I love the experience.

I love working for them. It's really such a powerful and privileged space to be in, because I get paid to travel. I get to bring someone with me.

[01:07:14] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:07:14] Amber: Yeah. I get to talk about sex. It's like all the things I- Yeah ... could imagine. But you meet a very... Like, you meet all kinds of people, and it's not the type of people you would necessarily expect, right?

Because you're like, "Well, this is a swingers cruise, so people are gonna have, like, super open minds, and this, that, and the other." And like- Mm, it's different. You meet all kinds of people on board, and I think something that I found really interesting too is, like, this space in which I exist is this weird, like, um, purgatory-

[01:07:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm

[01:07:48] Amber: where I don't have the money to afford such a luxury to go on these cruises. Yeah. I mean, sometimes the rooms are, like, 10K up to, like, 30K for a week. I mean, it's a lot of money.

[01:08:00] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:08:01] Amber: And people are on these cruises and they have this wealth, but because I have a wealth of knowledge, they're m- they're...

they'll engage with me, and they're interested in me in a way that I think in any other sense they would not speak to me.

[01:08:15] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[01:08:16] Amber: But the person, I get to bring a person with me. And so in the past I've brought a partner, and they would tell me a lot about their experience, 'cause my experience is completely different from their experience.

[01:08:27] Dr. Nicole: Ah.

[01:08:27] Amber: And they, I used to, I was like, "You can play if you want. You can do whatever." Yeah, yeah. Like, they had a lot more liberated experience, but they would tell me stories about, like, I would go to the bar to get a drink, and I would walk away to go to the bathroom or something, or I got talking to someone else- Yeah

and I got pulled another direction, and he'd still be at the bar conversating with whomever the original person we were speaking with was. And there were many instances where the moment I leave, people will physically, like, turn their back- ... and completely, like, won't continue the conversation, won't engage with them anymore.

Like, it's over. Whoa. I've, I've left, and he's invisible. Or at times he's seen the same people later, and he would be like, "Oh, hey, saw you last night," whatever. And they would just be like, "Mm, yeah. Mm, yeah." But when I come out, it's a different thing.

[01:09:18] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, and so you're... It sounds like because of the money disparity you think where, like, they just don't see...

Yeah, you're nodding. Yeah. I think they're

[01:09:26] Amber: not... Like, I have the sexpertise. I have that.

[01:09:29] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:09:29] Amber: There's this level of, like... It's almost like being the celebrity on the boat. Yeah. You know,

[01:09:33] Dr. Nicole: people are like, "Wow." I hear you. Yeah.

[01:09:34] Amber: But then you're just e- for, for all extensive purposes, as awful as it is to say, like, p- I feel like people view whoever I bring, 'cause I've brought friends, I've brought, uh, previous partners, and they just view them as, like, the assistant.

[01:09:48] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Yeah.

[01:09:49] Amber: Not interesting.

[01:09:50] Dr. Nicole: Not a human being.

[01:09:51] Amber: Especially if they're male. Because if I've- Mm ... I've had others who are, um, like female, and they came on and they... People, like, we're young, we're in our 20s, all of this, and they were very interested in my friends then- Mm. Sure ... but again, in a different way. So- Yeah

it's... You see all types, and that's not to say that people are bad on this cruise or anything like that. I, I mean, I absolutely adore, and I've met some really incredible people, and I think my favorite thing about it is opening up people's minds a lot more. 'Cause they think because they're swingers, their minds are already open, and I feel like I come and, like, really kick the barn doors down type of thing.

[01:10:31] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:10:33] Amber: Yeah. Yes. What do

[01:10:33] Dr. Nicole: you feel like... I'm curious, what is the kicking the barn door down? Like, what are some of the areas where you see them get really stuck in some limiting beliefs?

[01:10:41] Amber: Yeah. I would say in the classes. Like, some people go 'cause there's, like, a few classes a day, so sometimes it's just, like, something to do.

You're not interested in whatever the port is, so you're just like, "Well, I'll come in here." Maybe you've been in the sun- Yeah ... all day, maybe you've been drinking. Sure. It's not always, like, the perfect circumstances. Sometimes people are just like, "Well, I'm just gonna go in here." I don't know. And

they're drunk. And I've had people come in... Yeah, yeah, and they're drunk, and they're a little sunburned. And I'm like, "I don't have aloe vera." Pass me that. "But-" But- "But I got some lube."

[01:11:09] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly. Um- Which might have aloe vera in it. Some of them do. Yeah.

[01:11:14] Amber: Yeah, exactly. And, uh, what I like about that is, like, there's a level of, like, spontaneousness, and I get to connect with people who might...

Who have this idea, again, like, "I'm a swinger. I don't need help with my sex life," et cetera, et cetera. And then they come in, and people have different experiences. I think a lot of... 'Cause these are very, like, cisgender, heteronormative couples who come from very wealthy areas, especially in the United States.

Mm. So you can imagine, like, the mindset or the, the viewpoints they have. And again, like, I've met an array of people, but- You know, you get the vibe. Yep. So a lot of times for the women and the wives, because they all are married, the, the women and the wives, for them it's a lot about, like, receiving. So when I do a pleasure mapping class, it's like how we talked about at the beginning of this of, like, "Okay, they have given me a blowjob for five minute.

I, I have to go do this for them." Like, uh- Right, right, right, right, right ... I have to, you know, type of thing. And I'm like, "No, for 30 minutes it's all you. I don't want you- Yeah ... to think. I'm the boss. I'm telling you both what to do. No one's thinking, and everyone loves that relief." Yeah. And I'm like, "You are receiving you."

[01:12:20] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[01:12:21] Amber: Don't think of anything else. Yes. Don't be guilty. And so I really tap into, especially with the pleasure mapping, like aligning that mental, emotional, physical self. So when I start the class, I have everyone cuddling with their chests together. Mm. Like that contact. Yeah. That breath alignment, the heartbeat, relaxing, getting the sun, getting the mojito off of them.

Like, all of that. Like, we're, we're grounding. Yeah. We're in the space. And as we navigate through, again, since it's so early in the class, I don't like to get too into it, but as we start to move through the class, I bring a lot more of this in. So I always am telling the guys, I'm like, "Tell her how beautiful she is."

Aw, yeah. "How great this is." Yeah. But then I also bring in exterior non-sexual things. So towards the end of the class I'm like, "I want you to look at your partner and tell them something you love about them that isn't sexual." Yeah. You know, like, "Thank you for packing the bags. Thank you for making sure that I'm on the cruise on time."

Yeah. "Thank you for holding my passport," you know? Yeah. Like, uh, "Thank you for even booking this, for being in a space, in a capacity where we work enough to afford this, to have this, the life we've- Right ... built together." You know, I, I even talk about childcare in the class. Like, "You're the best mom. You're the best dad."

And that's what brings a lot of people to tears. Like, for the women, what I see is they needed these words, but they are- I wouldn't say stoic, but they receive it and they're being very mindful, but they're not as emotionally pulled. Mm. It's the men. Mm. And it's not because the men are hearing, "You're the best husband," whatever.

No, because in my experience, a lot of these dynamics, they already hear that. They're just not listening. Yeah. What they're, they're sobbing. I mean, men leave my class like sobbing. Yeah,

[01:14:10] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[01:14:11] Amber: And what they're sobbing about is actually touching in and having the permission to talk about their emotions, even in a sexual setting, and to say, "I love you, and you mean so much to me, and you're the best mom, and, and actually you do so much, and I, I really don't think about it a lot- Mm

but, like, you really make my life so much better." And, like, this-

[01:14:32] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[01:14:32] Amber: of, like, not in a full therapeutic setting where we're dressed- Sure ... like, where you're really ultimately vulnerable. You're sitting in a room full of people completely naked- Yeah ... who have had sex. You're covered in fluids, in lube- Yeah

and you're feeling all this pleasure. You're really cracked open. Yes. And then you have me, a complete stranger, sitting sometimes... Like, my last class was exceptionally amazing, 'cause it wasn't completely full, 'cause it was like 3:00 PM. Yeah. Sure. And I was also on their level laying on the bed- Yeah ... 'cause a lot of the times I'm standing.

Mm-hmm. The beds are on the floor. So I'm lounged on the bed, and I'm really going for it. I'm like- Mm ... at that point I get into the point where I'm voicing what I believe their thoughts are. So it's like that, like, "I love you. You mean the most to me. I- Yeah ... thank you so much for bringing me here," and really just articulating.

Mm. Every man sobbing

[01:15:27] Dr. Nicole: Oh.

[01:15:27] Amber: Every man in the class, like, absolutely sobbing, "Thank you so much." Like, and at the end of the class I always leave a bridge for people to reground themselves to leave. If they wanna go hard and continue to have sex and, like, propel off of that- Yeah ... I, I leave space for all of it.

Yeah. And that class was the first, 'cause that one was, like, exceptionally powerful, but that was the first one where everyone sat in silence for 10 minutes. Wow. People... Like, some people get dressed and they're like, "Oh, we have dinner reservations, we gotta go."

[01:15:56] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:15:56] Amber: No. Everybody was, like, emotionally, spiritually, physically, like, fucked-

[01:16:02] Dr. Nicole: Mm

[01:16:02] Amber: vulnerable-

[01:16:03] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[01:16:04] Amber: connected in every way. Love. And, like, even I was like, it was palpable. Yeah. And it... That my favorite thing.

[01:16:12] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. So transformative. People, Paul

[01:16:13] Amber: Wykes. People, like, who are former Mormons. People who, you know, come from Kansas. Yeah. Like, truly. Yeah. I had a couple from Germany who they've been together for 50 years.

They were, like, 80.

[01:16:27] Dr. Nicole: Wow. I love it so much. And

[01:16:28] Amber: they came to every single class, and they were like, "Thank you so much. You've brought something back into our marriage that we haven't had in so long."

[01:16:34] Dr. Nicole: Ah. Wow.

[01:16:36] Amber: And love it, truly.

[01:16:40] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Yeah, I mean, it's life changing. As we spoke to, when you really tap into pleasure in one area of your life, it changes- Yes

all of them. And so you're doing that sort of life-changing work, and again, you're doing it in community, which is huge when you see other people- Yes ... going through that. And you can feel that energy in a space when everybody's that open and vulnerable and that connected. And so to see you in your pleasure, how does it feel to be the person who's doing this for folks?

[01:17:10] Amber: Honestly, it's my greatest honor. Mm. Like, I, uh, uh, okay, I can say I love the cruises. I can say I love that the beds are soft, and that the champagne flows, and that the food is great, and the ports- Yeah ... are beautiful. Of course, like, I have those thoughts. But really, like, that hour I have with people each time I have a class, it transforms me every time.

It reminds me how grateful I am. Mm. It brings out my community, because I'm also the type of person of like, I'm a resource forever, and I will say this, and I will pitch this at the end of the podcast, and I'll pitch it now of like- Yeah ... write me. Yeah. Shoot me an Instagram. Send me a message. We'll, we'll give that all at the end.

But book a class with me, chat with me, whatever it is. I really believe in connection. I am a connector.

[01:17:58] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:17:59] Amber: I really find community so powerful, and to be in that space, and to be with people from all over the world, all walks of life, especially like, oh, one of my favorite parts is just when everyone's giving affirmations, you hear so many different languages in the room.

Oh. Like, I'm hearing it in Spanish. I'm hearing it in French. I'm, German- Yeah. Yeah ... um, Russian someti- Wow ... everything you can imagine. And so you're hearing love and experiencing it in ways that most people never will, and vibrationally- Oh, yeah ... psychological, everything. It's really, being in that room for that hour is so amazing, and afterwards I really...

I don't go and run to the pool. Yeah. I go immediately to my room. I sit outside. I look at the ocean, and I just really-

[01:18:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[01:18:46] Amber: reflect on it and kind of enjoy. Yeah. Even like with my friends or partners who are there, they're like- And I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no." I dunno. No.

[01:18:56] Dr. Nicole: I need the moment. I

[01:18:57] Amber: gotta... Yeah. I'm reflecting.

I'm, I'm feeling- Integrating ... I still feel, yeah. Yeah. Yes. I'm vulnerable after that call- Yeah ... 'cause I really do also crack myself open and make myself available to people. I hug people afterwards. I'm sure. You know, like I have, I have other educator friends who are like, "Oh no, I would never." Mm. And I'm like, "No, no."

Like, I hug and I touch people and they're slimy and, and, and sweaty and this, and like I just go take a shower. It's fine. Yeah. Yeah. But like I embrace and I feel it and in, in ways that I don't even do with my own friends, honestly. Sure. Sure. Like, it really is different.

[01:19:34] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. It reminds me a lot of the psychedelic work that I do, right?

Like you'll come out of a session- I can imagine ... like that, and it's like, whoa, we just were talking about how big the universe was and really, really heart-opening stuff. And so yeah, when you're really- Yeah ... connected as a s- facilitator for that, like you really do crack yourself open and you, you need that moment to come back 'cause you've been really open, right?

And so it-

[01:19:57] Amber: Yeah ...

[01:19:57] Dr. Nicole: it makes so many sen- so much sense that you need that time to really like ground in yourself 'cause you've really extended your energy out to other people for a significant amount of time.

[01:20:08] Amber: Yeah. And it's, a- as you're speaking to the, the psychedelics component of it, that was something in my own journey, like I've taken them recreationally.

Mm-hmm. And then when I had partners, I was always very encouraging of us taking it because I feel like I used to always tell people, when people take psychedelics, I feel like they understand how I feel all the time. Mm. Which is very- Yeah ... connected. Yeah. Very in tune, very mindful, sometimes overstimulated.

Sensitive, yeah. Sometimes really happy. Yeah. Yeah. But like it really, I just felt like people knew what it was like to be connected and didn't turn themselves off to the world. Like, I just feel like I'm always very on and very open, and as I've aged, I will say I have not lost some of that, but I've protected some of it.

[01:20:52] Dr. Nicole: Mm, sure.

[01:20:53] Amber: And I protect it a lot more than I used to, but I do still have this vulnerability and that's why it, going back to what I was saying, I think it's what makes me good at my work, especially when I have- Yeah ... closed sessions, one-on-one sessions with couples. Mm-hmm. I feel like I become part of them and they feel- Oh, yeah

the same. Yeah.

[01:21:12] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:21:13] Amber: Yep,

[01:21:13] Dr. Nicole: totally, which if you have a high-conflict couple, that's where I gotta take the step back and I'm like, "Whoa, I'm not a part of this swirl." You know, like, 'cause as a therapist I get lots of different things. Yes. And I'm like, "Woo," so I'm like have to ground after a session, like this is not, this is not my energy.

But right, we, we all co-regulate together and our mirror neurons even again- Yes ... the voice. Like, right, we talked about how my voice is inside your ears right now and all of the ears- Mm-hmm ... of the listeners who are tuning in. You, like whether we notice it or not, right, depending on maybe how embodied you are, you might notice it more so versus less so, but- If I speak at this rate and we're really like, "Wow, we're getting into pleasure," versus, "Wow, we're getting into pleasure and I have so much to do today.

Oh my God. Oh my God," like you are going to feel my breath in the sound- Yes ... in your body, right? And so if you're in a high-conflict situation with couples, right? Like that energy, the voice, the projecting at sometimes the yelling, which we have to stop, right? Like that goes through my body and I have to be able to process that, and vice versa.

Yes. The person who's crying and sobbing, and the depth of that, it goes through your body. And over the years you get more resilient to like holding that amount of, of depth all the time, right? Yeah. And it's also why when I go to parties and people try to small talk with me about the weather or whatever, I'm like, "I literally cannot.

Do not. Tell me your childhood trauma. Tell me your biggest dreams and fears. Like do not ask me about the weather and what I ate for dinner." You know what I mean? I'm like-

[01:22:41] Amber: Yes. I can't. I'm the same. Yeah. You're like, "Please, I, I, I-"

[01:22:46] Dr. Nicole: Kill me. "...

[01:22:47] Amber: I'm too vast right now."

[01:22:48] Dr. Nicole: Yeah,

[01:22:48] Amber: exactly. But no, it's also, I will say something else I've learned.

It's like my... This is like a bit of a joke, but also a truth. Yeah. My sixth sense- Mm ... and I'm sure other educators are the same, but I, a lot of my work, like people have sex in front of me. Mm-hmm. Like I don't touch. Um, but people have sex right in front of my eyes and I listen to them and talking about that power of the breath- Sure

because eventually the couples start to move and you're instructing, you're instructing. But usually like 45 minutes they start to take it on themselves, so you kinda just fade into the background and you're just kind of listening- Yeah ... and seeing if you need to interject.

[01:23:21] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:23:22] Amber: And I, my sixth sense, my superpower, my, my claim to fame is I can hear in the way someone's breathing if they're struggling to come- Yeah

and I know exactly what to tell them to do and how to change their breath and how much. It's always to slow it down, and how much to slow it down- Ah ... and when, and that is like always something that blows my clients out of the water because- They're like, "What?" ... I'll be... Yeah, 'cause I'm listening and then I'll just be like, "Slow down.

Slow down the breathing. Slow down this." And they do, and it's like boom. I know it's like three-

[01:23:56] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[01:23:57] Amber: two, eh. All right. There it is. There we go. Yeah, yeah. All right, we're on top. Yeah, yeah. Great.

[01:24:01] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[01:24:03] Amber: When that is something I love, and actually, like, normally I never carry it into my, my private, like, my own sex life.

And the other day I did. Yeah. The other day I was, like, having sex with someone, and I was like, "Hey, hey, hang on." "My, my educated gut, my s- my spidey senses are telling me that you're struggling- Yeah ... and we're not enjoying, and, and hang on. We gotta slow it down." Slow it down. But I've never had my spidey senses kick in during my own.

Ah. It's only ever at work. So it was, like, a very interesting dynamic 'cause all of a sudden I was, like, very in the moment, very present, and then all of a sudden it was like, oh- Oh ... hang on. Someone's in need. Someone needs my help. And it's me. And it's me. I just, I was, like, giving a blowjob, and I stopped, and I was like, "S-

[01:24:47] Dr. Nicole: slow down, slow down."

[01:24:49] Amber: Slow down, slow down. Yeah. "Slow down. It's okay." Yeah. And they're like, "Uh,

[01:24:50] Dr. Nicole: uh,

[01:24:51] Amber: what?" And I'm like, "Just... It's okay. It's okay."

[01:24:54] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. "

[01:24:55] Amber: It's okay. I've got you." Powerful. "Literally, I've got you."

[01:24:57] Dr. Nicole: Powerful. So powerful.

When you hold that wisdom and all of that insight, I'm curious, what would you say to your younger self, given everywhere that you've gone? Ooh.

[01:25:10] Amber: Yeah. I would say- Listen to yourself more. And honestly s- I would start your journey with yourself before others. Mm. 'Cause my journey very much, I didn't masturbate, I didn't do anything like that until my 20s.

I was having sex so much more before that, and having partnerships, and so my pleasure was so intertwined with others. Yeah.

[01:25:38] Dr. Nicole: Uh-huh.

[01:25:39] Amber: And then also being a sexpert, it was very much thinking about sex for other people. So not that I regret that my journey is later in life, and that's something I'm still going through, but I think I would tell myself to, like we're saying, take a deep breath, slow it down, and-

feel yourself more literally, emotionally, physically, 'cause that was... Like, I was scared of myself.

[01:26:01] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:26:02] Amber: So much easier to talk about your sex life. Ah, exactly. So much easier to live in the light. It's always easier to be the fun, performative, like, yeah person. Mm-hmm. It's harder to say, "Hey, actually, like this doesn't feel good.

Can we change this or learn more or ask for what I want?" Yeah. Demand sometimes what I need. Yeah. So those are things I've learned, but I, I do think I would tell myself, and honestly anyone starting the journey, and I always do, it's, it starts with the self-work. Mm. The self-reflection. It's always you first.

[01:26:33] Dr. Nicole: Mm, mm, so powerful. So powerful. May those words resonate with all of the listeners and-

[01:26:41] Amber: Feel through your ears.

[01:26:43] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah. Well, it's so clear that I could talk to you for hours about these topics. There's so much alignment in terms of the pleasure and the liberation and the body and the breath, and so

I'll just take a deep breath knowing that- Yeah ... we'll probably check in again in five years. We'll see where we're at- Yeah ... again in five years.

[01:27:06] Amber: See you the next cycle. See me in my mid-30s and

[01:27:09] Dr. Nicole: where I'm at in

[01:27:10] Amber: life.

[01:27:10] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. Exactly, exactly. Ugh, Amber, well, as we're coming towards the end of our time, I'll take that deep breath with you.

[01:27:18] Amber: Thank you.

[01:27:23] Dr. Nicole: And I'll check in and see if there's anything else you wanna share with the listeners. Otherwise, I have a closing question for you

[01:27:30] Amber: Yeah. I will just shout out a little bit of, like, where you can find me. So you can find me on Instagram. That's where I'm biggest. I have a website right now, but I'm not very good about it.

So I would say the best way to reach me is at amber, period, Mallory, M-A-L-L-O-R-Y. You can also find me on the Pure app. I'm always behind the socials there. But just reach out. Send the message. Shoot the DM. Send an email to me as well. I'm quite available. If not, support in different ways, but I really would appreciate your support.

And as Dr. Nicole's saying, resources- Yeah ... support the community. Speak to it. The more you support us, the more you support de-censoring pleasure- Yeah ... wisdom, the sh- all of this, and it's so important. And not everyone has money and means and capita and everything like that, but there are so many small ways you can help.

And if you really don't know how, like, reach out to us and connect or connect with whomever your favorite educator is- Mm-hmm ... and ask what you can do, because- Yes ... we all are agents of change.

[01:28:36] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. And we trust in those ripples and the power of those ripples to really create some big waves.

[01:28:43] Amber: Yeah.

[01:28:44] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. All right, Amber. Well, the one question that I ask everyone- ... on the show is what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:28:58] Amber: Yeah. I think, speaking to the theme of everything we're talking about, it's that sometimes you fuck up more than you fuck. It's gonna be my... That's my tagline, my, like, Real Housewives tagline for today of, of it.

It would be that of we all stumble, and probably more stumbles than successes, but it just makes the suc- successes, the successesses- ... more powerful, liberating, and amazing. Yeah. And it's okay. It's okay to fail. It's okay not to come. Yeah. It's okay to not want penetration. It's, it's cool. You don't gotta follow the script.

[01:29:40] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. That's so good. That's good. That, I mean- ... do you want that to be the episode title? You say yes, we'll make

[01:29:47] Amber: it. Put it in. I love it. Yeah.

[01:29:50] Dr. Nicole: Whap. It's set. It's set. My future Nicole- ... if you thought of another title, it's already here. We have it. We have it. Oh, that's so good. I'm curious, do you wanna hear what you said for the first one?

[01:30:03] Amber: Yeah, play it, 'cause I didn't get there, so I'm so curious.

[01:30:07] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. You said not being responsible for meeting everyone else's needs.

[01:30:14] Amber: I feel like that's kind of still on theme though.

[01:30:17] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:30:18] Amber: It's still there. It's my people-pleasing Libra. I'm still saying stop thinking about everyone else.

[01:30:24] Dr. Nicole: Mm. And fuck up.

[01:30:24] Amber: Mm-hmm.

[01:30:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. I mean, some big transformation. You alluded to that at the beginning, right? Of, like, always going out, going out, going out, going out to other people and developing more- Yeah ... of a relationship to yourself. And so it's cool to see that, right? Like, that was clearly was speaking to you at the time in terms of normalizing, and now where you're at, it sounds like you're, like, really allowing yourself that space in your relationship to self to fuck up, to have those off days- Yeah

to have all of that, right? Which, which often allows us to show up better for the people in our lives, right? That's the, you know, catch-22 about it. The more you love yourself, the more you can show up better for other people, too. Yes. So it's all connected. And so, it's so beautiful to see your journey and your transformation and all of the work that you're doing out in the world.

[01:31:11] Amber: Yeah. And thank you so much for having me again and, like, letting me- Oh ... revisit this. Yeah. Like, this is also a really powerful experience as well.

[01:31:19] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. It's such a joy, such a joy to have space, and truly, I feel so energized each time that I get to have conversations- ... with other educators who get it, and I'm like, "Ah, yeah, I'm not, not alone in this little world over here."

There's so many other- Exactly ... powerful people who are doing this work. And so thank you for being a part of that community.

[01:31:38] Amber: Thank you.

[01:31:41] Dr. Nicole: Dear listener, thank you so much for tuning in to Modern Anarchy. Thank you for sharing this episode with your friends, with your lovers, with your community. Truly, it means so much to me, and I am so grateful that you are here.

If you are wanting to release jealousy in your non-monogamous dynamics and step into compersion and pleasure-filled connection you can read my book, The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide, for free on my website. There you will also find so many other free resources, including worksheets on how to clearly communicate and set commitments and boundaries within your non-monogamous dynamics and other ways to practice clear communication about your sexual desires so that you can step into your most pleasure-filled sex and relationships.

So head on over to modernanarchypodcast.com to find all of those free resources and I look forward to seeing you next week.