274. Spunky, Kinky Kitten to Witchy, Erotic Crone – Elmo Painter

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole. Try to leave her hiding all strung up. I tried to keep her quiet, but she's screaming inside of me. I tried-

On today's episode, we have Elmo Painter. Join us for our conversation about the evolution of the erotic. Together we talk about being in caterpillar soup, sex magic rituals, and embracing the question marks. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I'm so delighted to have you here, all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday.

I'm Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, author of The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and the first study on relationship anarchy, and I teach students from around the world how to craft pleasurable sex lives and non-monogamous relationships.

Dear listener Elmo is a repeat. Wow, this is their second episode on the podcast, y'all. If you wanna go back, I can't go back and listen to those episode. It is too weird. I always say it's like reading your own journal diaries. But if you would like to connect with Elmo and I for the first episode and then listen to this one, or vice versa, listen to this one and then go back and see how we've changed, all here for that feedback.

Someone send me a DM and let me know what you notice. Um, but I really just appreciate that Elmo came in being so authentic. They were like, "God, what, uh, what am I gonna say about my sex life with Dr. Nicole? I don't really know where I'm at with my sex life right now." And just even that authenticity. The amount of clients I have in my office who are like, "I don't know what's happening.

W- who am I? Where am I going? What is happening with my life," right? Just to embrace the humanness of that, the evolution, the change, the question marks. It is part of the process. It is part of the process of becoming, and hate to break it to all of us, that is gonna keep happening for the rest of our life.

But to, that's also an exciting thing, right? There's so much joy. There's so much possibility. The person you are right now will not be who you're gonna be in X amount of time. And yeah, often that's very scary, but it also can be an exciting invitation to know that wherever you're at, you're not stuck, that change is possible, evolution is possible.

And if you wanna redirect your life towards something else, you can absolutely do that. Can absolutely do that. Please know I'm rooting for you in that, in that journey, in that evolution, in that deeper connection to your pleasure, wherever that might lead you. All right, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore all of my free resources.

I have my free e-book, my free dissertation, my free worksheets on sexuality and non-monogamy and all of that because I believe free resources are essential for liberation. All of that is at modernanarchypodcast.com. That's also where you'll learn more about my upcoming 16-week non-monogamy group program.

Y'all, it's starting next month. If you've been hearing me talk about this and you're like, "Damn, I wanna do it, but I'm waiting Hi. The time is coming. Come hop in. Um, yeah, such a joy every year to teach this group, and I'm, I'm really grateful for the vulnerability, the souls that come into the space, and the magic that we co-create there.

And I'm so excited to welcome all of you who have already signed up for the groups, all of you who have known months, years in advance that you wanted to make this a part of your year. Honored. Honored to have you in this space, and I'm so excited to see you in my classroom in August. And also, thank you to all of my Patreon members.

Thank you for supporting me. Thank you for supporting the show. Thank you for keeping this free and accessible to all people. So thank you. And with that, dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love, and let's tune in to today's episode

Dear listener, there's a space already waiting for you where you are invited to let go of every old script about sex and relationships and begin living a life rooted in your pleasure, empowerment, and deep alignment. I'm Dr. Nicole, and this is your invitation to the Pleasure Liberation Groups, a transformative, educational, and deeply immersive experience designed for visionary individuals like you.

Together, we'll gather in community to explore desire, expand relational wisdom, and embody the lives we're here to lead. Each session is woven with practices, teachings, and the kind of connection that makes real transformation possible. And I'll be right there with you, guiding the process with an embodied curriculum that supports both personal and collective liberation.

This is your invitation into the next chapter of your erotic evolution. Say yes to your pleasure and visit modernanarchypodcast.com/pleasurepractice to apply.

And so the first question that I love to ask each guest on the show is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:06:05] Elmo: Hi, I'm Elmo Painter-Eddington. I am a somatic psychotherapist. I'm licensed in Wisconsin and Illinois. I specialize in grief, trauma, pleasure, and play, I like to say, because I believe that play is the antithesis to trauma.

And I've been doing, I've been specializing in trauma for almost 10 years, and, uh, it's, trauma makes our lives small and frozen, and play helps to expand and break out and bring warmth and joy and connection. And so I have a, I have a background in comedy. I incorporate comedy- Mm ... in my work a lot, and even though we're talking about kind of a lot of the deepest, darkest things, like grief and trauma, there's a lot of laughter in my- Mm

in my sessions with folks, and a lot of cheering and, you know, um, a lot of like, uh, just I love to embrace all, all aspects, including, you know, the, the things that folks feel. This is, like, not, this is not like an elevator pitch, I'm realizing. You know, like feeling into what are the parts of you that you try not to look at?

Let's look at them, not even, not just look at them, but be friends with them.

[00:07:24] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:07:25] Elmo: Say, like, "Invite a bitch to tea," you know? Mm-hmm.

[00:07:28] Dr. Nicole: Like,

[00:07:28] Elmo: uh, so yeah, I just, um- And I specialize in relationships of, you know, a lot of ti- I, I help pe- I've been, m- I myself have been polyamorous for, like, wow, 23 years. I'm, like, I'm trying

I'm in, I'm in this... I'm trying not to be, like, uh, a jaded elder. Ah. So much so, so much, like, the, some of the, like, Instagram and TikTok content I'm seeing, I'm like, "Ugh."

[00:07:54] Dr. Nicole: Mm. "

[00:07:55] Elmo: No." Yeah. Like, um, yeah. I've been an, uh, I've been a kinky educator for a long, long time. I, I teach at d- various, um, grad schools, uh, around Chicago.

I teach future therapists. Not even that kink is okay, but the spiritual and healing- Mm ... aspects of, of kink, and how, you know, beautiful it can be, and how it can lead to, with, with trustworthy people, can lead to, like, self-acceptance and empowerment and, you know, all, all of the amazing things, and spiritual connection and-

[00:08:32] Dr. Nicole: Yeah

[00:08:33] Elmo: all of, all of these things.

[00:08:35] Dr. Nicole: Uh-huh.

[00:08:36] Elmo: That's, so that's my, that's the longest intro to- ... like, what I do I think I've ever given.

[00:08:42] Dr. Nicole: Well, it's so aligned. It's, you know, your life's work and your life, right? That's when, like, yeah, I'll say all of it, right? It's so connected, I imagine. Mm-hmm.

[00:08:52] Elmo: Yeah. Usually people are like, "Give me one or two sentences," and I'm like- Yeah

"That is not enough. I

[00:08:57] Dr. Nicole: cannot." I refuse. Well, you're in the right space, very clearly. Yes. You're speaking my language, and you're in the right place. And it's really exciting to have you on the show again. It's been a couple of years since we last checked in on the show.

[00:09:12] Elmo: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It's great to be back.

[00:09:14] Dr. Nicole: I know. You know, from the previous episodes, which I do not listen to, you know, it's like reading your own journal. You know, when you look back and there's all the cringe and all of the emotions you have to work through through that. But from your episode specifically, I remember such a deep invitation to connect with pleasure, and specifically expanding pleasure beyond just the sexual space into, um, you had said, like, check in with your belly and ask yourself what sort of food do you wanna eat tonight.

What sort of clothes will feel good on your skin today? And it was such a simple invitation, but I really found myself coming back to that again and again, of really pausing and saying, "Wait." Not what clothes look good, but like what feels good on my skin. Mm. What actually is that, like, food that I'm craving in my body?

And it was really transformative for me. Hm.

[00:10:08] Elmo: That's beautiful.

[00:10:10] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:10:11] Elmo: I'm so glad that you got to keep that.

[00:10:12] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Aw. And I know it's such a big part of the work that you, you offer folks, really- Mm-hmm ... is that, you know, you had said taking even that moment to feel the sun on your skin. Can you tell me about the transformations you've seen in the work that you hold folks?

[00:10:30] Elmo: Oh, wow. I mean, there's this, um... So with somatic work, it's, it's... So it's body-centered psychotherapy, so I do somatic experiencing. I've been doing somatic experiencing almost 10 years. Um, and it can be slow-going. It can also be one session-

[00:10:53] Dr. Nicole: Whoa, yeah ...

[00:10:53] Elmo: is, like, revolutionary for somebody. K- kind of, and it's like, it's kind of perfect storm kind of moment.

You never know. Hm. You can't, like- Hm ... go in expecting to have, like, just, like, one session with a, with a somatic provider and be like, "Oh my God, my life has changed."

[00:11:07] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:11:08] Elmo: But sometimes you can. The, sometimes it does happen. Mm-hmm. Sometimes I have seen it happen. I've had someone come in when I had a physical space.

I'm all Zoom now, but when I had a physical space, there's somebody on my couch, and the sun was just coming in the window, and this is a resource everyone has regardless of finances or, or c- class or anything. Right. The sun, right? Right. The air we breathe.

[00:11:34] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:11:34] Elmo: The sun was coming in, and this person was just having, like, a, like, a lizard or cat moment and, and, like, feeling the warmth and the nurturing elements of the sun.

And we just did that, and this person was like, "I haven't felt-" Relaxed and happy in 10 years. Wow. This is the, like I have not, I forgot that I could feel this way.

[00:12:03] Dr. Nicole: Gosh.

[00:12:04] Elmo: One, one simple-

[00:12:06] Dr. Nicole: Ugh,

[00:12:07] Elmo: yeah ... simple exercise in one session.

[00:12:09] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

[00:12:10] Elmo: You know? And it's like, like she had such a huge nervous system shift because now she's got that experience.

Now you've got that experience of like, "I can feel this way." I, and like the belief that I can never feel good again disappears.

[00:12:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Wow. Yeah.

[00:12:27] Elmo: With something that simple. So, and, um, you know, there's any- everything from that to figuring out how, like what's okay with me and what's not okay with me, like feeling into what authentic yes and authentic no feels like- Yeah

in the body can be really revolutionary for somebody. And also, uh, just reclaiming anger can be really, really fantastic. People are like, "No, anger is bad." And I'm like, "No, anger means you're protecting something worthy of protection."

[00:13:00] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:13:01] Elmo: And that is like some, like this, the shift and like being able to feel the anger with that- Yeah

belief kind of dissolved- Then the anger becomes empowerment, right? Mm-hmm. It's l- and like, I mean, I've seen all the, so many amazing things happen with this work.

[00:13:16] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And,

[00:13:17] Elmo: and s- and I also combine it with attachment work and relational work, um, which can be longer for sure, like longer healing work. But like doing parts work with people, combining parts work with somatic work is like- Yeah

chef's kiss.

[00:13:32] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. So,

[00:13:33] Elmo: so good.

[00:13:34] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You can probably understand when I, I talk about the work with sex and relationships, how people come in wanting to transform that area of their life. But right when you get to the moment where you're feeling the sun on your skin, that connection to pleasure, right, that's what opens the door to so many different areas of your life, feeling pleasure.

Like, we come in- Yes ... because, wow, the sex is complicated or this or that, but it, like, ripples into every area of your being, right? Mm-hmm. Because the reality is, like, if you wanna have a good sex life, it's not like you get to just flip the switch when you come into the sexual space. It's the reality that you have to start feeling pleasure in all areas of your life.

[00:14:20] Elmo: Right.

[00:14:20] Dr. Nicole: And then your brain is ready to start also feeling it in that space.

[00:14:25] Elmo: Yeah. Yeah. It's, in, in SE we call that titration.

[00:14:29] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:14:29] Elmo: Mm-hmm. So, like, a lot of folks are, don't come to me ready to get into sexual pleasure. Sure. A lot of folks are like, "That's too much." Yeah. That's way... That's like- That makes sense

that's like, it feels so far away-

[00:14:40] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:14:40] Elmo: for me. But these things, like, you know, get yourself a really nice soap-

[00:14:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:14:46] Elmo: that you, that you use in the shower, you know? And, or something that smells good, you know? Mm-hmm. And the feeling, the clothing on your body, things like that. That is titrating pleasure, like, to, just bringing in a little bit and a little bit to help really slowly expand the window of tolerance to experience- Yeah

pleasure in, in a mindful, gentle way that's not overwhelming-

[00:15:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:15:10] Elmo: the person's nervous system.

[00:15:12] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And so thinking about your own journey with pleasure- Mm-hmm ... what has your titration journey been like? Where did you start this journey?

[00:15:23] Elmo: Ugh, where did I start? Holy.

[00:15:25] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. We have all the space to talk about it.

[00:15:29] Elmo: I know. I've been doing, so many of the things that I do, I've been doing for almost a quarter century which is insane. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like, um, you know, I discovered the San Francisco for mys- I didn't discover it, but it was, like, for myself, I joined the San Francisco kink community in, back in

[00:15:50] Dr. Nicole: 2004. Mm. Mm-hmm.

[00:15:51] Elmo: And, uh, was, like, exploring, had been exploring things before, like, in previous years before that. So, like, I got to kind of grow up there. So in my early 20s, um, I got to- I have this huge shift in perspective of like what is kink? What does it mean to be a dominatrix? Yeah. What does it mean to be a top? What does it- Mm-hmm

what does, what does this mean? 'Cause I had these ideas, these like really young person ideas, and then I met some of the most incredible people in the kink world who I, I am so fortunate to be able to have been mentored by- Yeah ... and who were like this, you know, who were like, "This is... You're giving a gift."

[00:16:33] Dr. Nicole: Mm. "

[00:16:34] Elmo: This, this is the... You're taking someone through a journey." Mm. This is like... And there was a lot of spirituality, and a lot of connection, and a lot of like-

[00:16:41] Dr. Nicole: It's cool ...

[00:16:42] Elmo: growth. Um- Yeah ... and you know, folks who were folks in the community who really like knew who they were and knew their boundaries and could be like, "Oh, I don't like this," and you're like, you know, little me was like, "You can just say that?

Ah."

[00:16:57] Dr. Nicole: Yes, and please tell me. Right? Please tell me- Mm-hmm ... what you don't like. Yes. Yeah.

[00:17:02] Elmo: Um, but even right now, like so there are some of these things that I've been doing for a long time, but right now I'm- I feel like I'm going through this metamorphosis, and like we were talking about before, this kinda caterpillar soup of there was perimenopause, and then I had a complete hysterectomy, um- Mm

back in April of this year, and I'm, I'm really, uh, the, so like it's kind of like all the stuff in my 20s and 30s- I'm like, okay, uh, is that still me?

[00:17:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:17:34] Elmo: Like, am I still, you know... Do I still like this thing? Like, what do I like now? You know, my body is different, my hormones are different, and your hormones impact every system of your- Yeah

body. Every single system- Yeah ... of your body. That's why perimenopause knocks you on your ass.

[00:17:49] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah.

[00:17:50] Elmo: Um, so even right now I am... I feel like there, there's like a little bit of like I'm... Spiritually I'm moving into the crone phase. Uh, I feel like ego-wise I'm like, I have to kind of accept that like I'm not who I was-

[00:18:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm

[00:18:11] Elmo: in my 20s and 30s. Mm. Even though, like, so much of my identity and professional identity has been like this kink educator, this polyamory educator- Yeah ... for so long. N- and now I'm like, do I even have... Is the- is like polyamory still what I want? Like, I'm sa- I'm always gonna be non-monogamous, I think.

[00:18:30] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:18:30] Elmo: But I'm like, what's... Do I have the capacity-

[00:18:33] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:18:34] Elmo: for multiple, you know, these like multiple relationships? Mm. Like d- you know, deeper relationships at this point. Do I? Mm. And I like, I don't even know the quest- I don't even know the answer to that. I'm like, I'm in the question-

[00:18:46] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:18:46] Elmo: right now. Yeah. And, uh, with pleasure and things, like my the, the hormones, the desire stuff is just, it just is biologically different right now.

Mm. So I'm like, what i- yeah, I'm in a lot of question marks and, and I'm just kind of being in this, uh... And it's r- at the, at time of recording it's, it's, um, winter solstice eve today. And so I, I'm just like feeling into this like dark moment o- and just being like, okay, there's a lot of unknown. There's a lot of this like powerful darkness that's happening and- Yeah, I'm just, I...

I'm like, I, I really, I have gone so long being like, "I know who I am," and now I'm like- Yeah ... "Oh, shit." The

[00:19:34] Dr. Nicole: psychedelic has dropped in. Where are we? Where are we, and who am I?

[00:19:40] Elmo: Yeah.

[00:19:40] Dr. Nicole: What is I, actually?

[00:19:42] Elmo: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My e- my ego is, like, searching around in the dark in a big way.

[00:19:48] Dr. Nicole: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Isn't it fun?

[00:19:51] Elmo: Yeah, it's great.

[00:19:54] Dr. Nicole: Uh, it reminds me of last week's episode with Karen. When she introduced herself, she said, "I'm becoming." Yeah. Right? I'm like, yeah. Like, so in the stage of becoming for you, I'm curious what feels alive? Like, what are the pleasures that are speaking to you, right? You invited me into such that practice of, like, where is the pleasure taking me?

Mm. And so, what do you feel alive? Like, where is that path going?

[00:20:19] Elmo: Yeah. It's going into a very cozy place. Mm. Love that. Like my, yeah, my somatic practice is very- Yeah ... centered around, um, coziness. Mm. Like, I have got my, uh, the... Like, our living room is, like, so soft. There are pillows and blankets. You know, like, there might be...

There might, there will never be too many pillows for me- I agree. I agree ... but there might be too many pillows for some folks. Um, but there- Yeah ... are, I mean, it's soft, it's cozy. You know, every day I'll, like, curl up under a blanket and look around at all of, like, my little plants and knick-knacks- Ah ... and all the paintings that I've done and everything.

And I'm just like, "Mm, my home- Mm. Mm ... is so cozy." Mm-hmm. And like, just let that... That's my da- like daily somatic practice of, like- Mm ... feeling into coziness.

[00:21:07] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:07] Elmo: Um, and I've been really into sewing. Mm. I'm just, I'm kind of, I'm becoming the crone in the woods. Like, I'm like- Yeah ... I'm like, you know, in my little home, my cozy little home, a- and I'm sewing a lot.

Mm. I've been, like, teaching myself how to sew. Mm-hmm. And just doing these things. I'm just, like, like, really leaning into-

[00:21:29] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:21:30] Elmo: those kinds of pleasures, those kinds of, like- small pleasures.

[00:21:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:37] Elmo: And I think because so much else is such a question mark, those are, those are like my pleasure, my creativity, makeup and sewing has been- Mm

like huge, and, and making my home super cozy.

[00:21:51] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Beautiful. Love to hear that. Love to hear where your pleasure is going. And you spoke about the shifts with hormones and menopause, and I'm curious, you know, how is that impacting then this new crone phase that you're in, these big shifts?

Where is your eroticism in this chapter? How is it unfolding?

[00:22:12] Elmo: Yeah, girl, good question.

[00:22:14] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:22:17] Elmo: There's been a, there's been a little bit about, a little bit of like, "Where are you at?" from me as well.

[00:22:21] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Mm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, what are you noticing?

[00:22:25] Elmo: Yeah. So I'm noticing, um- Some question marks around it. I'm, I'm noticing, uh

Man, I don't even know The, the, there's a lot of crawling around in the dark and, like, erotically-

[00:22:44] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:22:44] Elmo: as well right now. Yeah. And I think right now I am experiencing ego in a way, but, like, ego transformation. It's not, it's not ego death because there's, there are a lot of elements of myself and my personality that I know to be who I am, and yeah.

Erotically I'm, like, I don't... I'm, like, I'm just, like, kind of also giving that a lot of space. I'm kind of giving my erotic life a little bit of, you know, everybody knows not to, uh, have expectations of, you know- Yeah ... of, of, uh, me being the, the, like, kinky, spunky kitten I once was. Mm-hmm. And, um, but at the same time, there's a lot of longing for-

[00:23:39] Dr. Nicole: Mm

[00:23:39] Elmo: more eroticism and more of those feelings-

[00:23:42] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:23:42] Elmo: that, you know, I, I, I'm l- just, like, I think just, like, I need to do my own treatment with myself and the- Yeah ... like, finding more pleasure, finding more of the, like, sensory pleasure in life and, and- Mm-hmm ... like, kind of rediscovering some of those pleasurable things-

[00:24:03] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm

[00:24:04] Elmo: for myself. So yeah, I mean, like, even, even answering this question I feel like I'm kind of, yeah, like looking for something in the dark. Mm-hmm. Or without my glasses or something you know?

[00:24:16] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:24:16] Elmo: Like, yeah. So, like, I'm like, "I know it's here," and, like, there's this sense, I have this kinda spiritual sense that it's fucking badass.

Mm. Like, where... Like, I don't... Like, it's just kind of I haven't found it in this point in time, but there's a connection to it and I, I can feel there's, like, this sense of liberation-

[00:24:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:24:37] Elmo: in it, too, and I think because I'm allowing this big question mark moment, this caterpillar suit moment- Yeah ... that I, I also feel very hopeful and very optimistic.

And-

[00:24:48] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:24:49] Elmo: You know, like I said, spiritually having my uterus and ovaries removed, for me, has led to more spiritual connection. Like, I know a lot of folks are connected to their, to their womb and things spiritually, and that's really beautiful. For me, it feels like a block was literally- Mm ... taken out. Mm.

Like, removed of- Mm-hmm ... and oh, man, I feel like so much more of a witch- Ooh. ... than I have in, like, a couple of years. Uh, and there's something in there, and I've always been, like, spirituality r- is a huge turn-on. Like, I have... You know, we talked about ecosexuality, I think, last time. Oh, yeah,

[00:25:28] Dr. Nicole: we did. We did. Yeah.

[00:25:29] Elmo: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So there's also- Uh-huh ... like, elements of that spiritually. Like- Yeah ... um, pleasure and, uh, the moon and, like, you know, the energy from- um, uh, you know, different deities and goddesses and, like, just goddess energy and stuff that's like That is a source of, like, erotic connection- Mm-hmm ... still for me.

[00:25:51] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:51] Elmo: Um, and still, you know, I have my, my background and my spiritual kink, uh, community in San Francisco is so... Like, that is very connected to me and has been for decades.

[00:26:03] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:04] Elmo: I, I'm like, does it involve other people right now? I don't know.

[00:26:08] Dr. Nicole: Great question.

[00:26:10] Elmo: Yeah. I mean, it doesn't

[00:26:10] Dr. Nicole: have

[00:26:10] Elmo: to. I don't even exactly.

Exactly. I don't know if it involves other people at this point in time, and I want it to.

[00:26:18] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:26:19] Elmo: Um...

[00:26:20] Dr. Nicole: Okay.

[00:26:21] Elmo: And yeah, I just don't know.

[00:26:24] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:25] Elmo: And I'm, I'm, I feel very fortunate to have my beautiful, amazing partner that I live with, who is like, "Okay." You know? Yeah. Like, w- and I'm like, "This is exactly where I'm at, and I don't know what's gonna be happen on the other side."

And, and he's like, "All right," you know? Yeah. And he's, like, totally here for it, and like-

[00:26:43] Dr. Nicole: Mm, beautiful ...

[00:26:43] Elmo: totally supportive. And-

[00:26:45] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:26:46] Elmo: yeah, it's, I feel very fortunate to be w- where I'm at and with everybody that I'm connected to. Mm-hmm. And, and, like, you know, people who are, uh, that I've been erotically connected to- Yeah

or romantically connected to, um, who, like, and, you know, are those beautiful queer relationships where it's like we can be-

[00:27:06] Dr. Nicole: All

[00:27:07] Elmo: of it ... all of, we, we can be who- whoever we are- Yep ... right today. Yep. And, and it's so amazing, and that's why I know I'll always be non-monogamous in that way- Yeah ... because of, like, my beautiful queer connections of, of people-

[00:27:19] Dr. Nicole: Right

[00:27:20] Elmo: you know, in my life.

[00:27:21] Dr. Nicole: Um- Mm-hmm ...

[00:27:22] Elmo: but yeah, so many question marks. Mm-hmm. And I'm just kind of h- here for it.

[00:27:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. I hear you in that, you know, queer community, showing up for the magic of each relationship and how it- Yeah ... unfolds in all its different forms at many different parts of the journey, and just being open to that.

And you talked about, you know, if we're talking about chapters of your eroticism, coming from that spunky, kinky kitten phase to this witchy, erotic crone, right? That's a beautiful arc to really sit with, and it sounds like- Yeah ... now you're in this space, um, where you're really allowing the, the pleasure to guide you into this next chapter.

It sounds like it's off the scripts, and you're really just being here. Like, does it even involve other people or not, right? And maybe- Mm ... maybe it doesn't. What does it mean to be with that connection to your eroticism? Um- Mm ... but I'm also hearing, yeah, the grief, as you said. Like, you want it to involve other people.

And so you said you have this vision of liberation. Do you have images in it truly when you s- when you see that vision of your erotic liberation? Are there any images in it?

[00:28:33] Elmo: Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, erotic connections with, uh, people, um, sexual connections with people. Um, and even like you saying that this like erotic, uh, witchy crone phase- Mm-hmm

I was like, that's hot. Like

[00:28:50] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, tell me more. You know? Just- Tell me that. Tell me that. I wanna hear that go in that thought train.

[00:28:55] Elmo: Yeah, like, um, just like that, the older, like this like- This, this authentic space, even these question marks are, I f- it feels so authentic to me to even, to just be able to break down this like, am I still this way?

Am I still this way? Do I still want these kinds of connections? Do I still... And, like, being able to question that feels like there's, there's, it will, it leads to more permission for that- Yeah ... to be an authentic yes. And, like, that's kind of what I'm, what I would like and what I'm hoping for, or to be, to have, like, this more liberated, like, what is it, what does it mean now?

Because it doesn't mean what it meant in my 20s or 30s. It means something different now at this point in my life. I'm almost 45, and by the time this comes out, I'll probably be 45.

[00:29:48] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:49] Elmo: And I'm, like, in medical menopause and all, all of these things are different. Yeah, and I'm, and I'm hoping that these moments of, like, really deep questioning and really real existential fucking level of questioning that I'm doing with myself- Yeah

and that I'm allowing- Yeah ... and this fucking deep shadow work that I'm like, "I don't even know. I don't know." And I've known who, I've known who I am since I was a teenager. You know? Oh. I've had this, like, really strong sense of self. Yeah. And I still do, and I think that's why I have so much permission around myself now to be in this questioning space.

Right. 'Cause I'm like, you know, I, I have a lot of confidence in myself.

[00:30:29] Dr. Nicole: Exactly.

[00:30:29] Elmo: And I have a lot of, like, self-efficacy in, in, like, discovering these kinds of, navigating these kinds of big question moments.

[00:30:37] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think there's a special level of confidence to get to that sort of ego dissolution where you really don't know who you are anymore, and you say, "That's okay.

I'll figure it out," rather than panic, right? Yeah. So there's a certain level of true confidence in self to say- ... "I'm wandering, and I'll figure it out. I don't need the map." Yeah. "I feel the map inside me," right? Mm-hmm. And I think it's so beautiful how, like you said, when you clear out all of the scripts and the expectations, it makes your yes really loud.

I was just with my partner Cooper last night and talking to him about, like, how sometimes I feel like you're my friend, and I'm gonna say the word just friend in the sense of, like, removing of any sort of scripts of eroticism and sexuality or any of that. Um, and then at other times, I feel like you're my deep sexual lover, and we have these really hot moments.

And I love that I oscillate with that, right? So it doesn't ever feel like I'm locked in one. And so then the days where, like, my sexual desire with that person feels far away, far away, like, there's no pressure where I'm going, "Oh, but I need to," or, "This should be happening," or that. And so it makes such a clear moment when I do wanna have sex with him.

It's like, "Oh, yes." Right? And so those moments where we can, like, remove off any of the scripts of our lives, it really creates a lot of space for that very clear yes, rather than the shoulds and the pressures and the social expectations that are often so loud.

[00:32:05] Elmo: Exactly.

[00:32:06] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:07] Elmo: Exactly. And it's like when I teach people, when I teach people boundaries-

[00:32:12] Dr. Nicole: Yeah

[00:32:12] Elmo: I'm like, "Your no makes you trustworthy."

[00:32:14] Dr. Nicole: Mm, mm-hmm.

[00:32:15] Elmo: Like, being able to say no means I can trust your yes. And being able to say, "I don't know, give me some, I need some time so that I can come to that authentic yes," that's so much- Mm-hmm ... there's so much more, like, okay, like, when that yes comes, like, okay, we can really get into it because I know you meant that yes.

[00:32:32] Dr. Nicole: Right. Exactly. Exactly. Mm-hmm. Any sort of good conversation with a bottom or a sub, right, like, where's your no? And if they don't have- Mm-hmm ... an answer to that, that's, like, the biggest red flag .

[00:32:42] Elmo: Yes.

[00:32:43] Dr. Nicole: No, no, don't- Yes, it is ... yeah I'm like, "I need to know that you know where your no is," right?

[00:32:49] Elmo: Yeah.

[00:32:50] Dr. Nicole: And so, you know, stepping into your hot, hot, hot, hot erotic witchy crone, you know, I feel like a big part of the witch archetype and spiritual practice comes down to rituals.

I mean, there's so much to it, and we could geek out on all of the, all of the nature and the community and the ... But there's a lot of rituals. I'm curious, do you have any erotic rituals that are really important to you in this chapter?

[00:33:15] Elmo: Hmm. Erotic rituals. I think, and I'm, and I'm, like, I'm feeling into what I've been doing that I haven't really put into words yet until, like, the, like, being able to think about it right now and- I

[00:33:30] Dr. Nicole: love holding the space

it's like, ooh. It's so fun.

[00:33:33] Elmo: Thanks, Dr. Nicole.

[00:33:34] Dr. Nicole: Yes, of course. I'm here for it.

[00:33:37] Elmo: Yeah, but I think a little bit of what I was mentioning before of that, that spiritual kind of connection with crone energy, with magic, with the moon, with more, uh, w- like, my own witchcraft is, uh, and, like, the feeding of erotic power and magical power and, like, you know, fem power that, that I'm kind of leaning into.

And, like, you know, it's only been a couple months since my- Mm ... surgery, so, like- Mm ... I'm still-

[00:34:14] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:34:14] Elmo: fresh, right? And, like, there was, like, the recovery and stuff, so the-

[00:34:17] Dr. Nicole: Right ...

[00:34:18] Elmo: the who am I now stuff is very recent. Like- Sure ... very, very recent. Um, yeah, oh, but now I'm like, okay, but now I wanna, like, create erotic rituals that are more, like, manifest.

And like, what does that look like? What does that mean? I mean, I have, I love putting things on my body. These are kind of like these... And like doing my face and makeup always makes me... Like, when I, when I feel beautiful, I feel, I, it's, it's like it changes the whole day. Yeah, it does. You know? And makeup is a, like, it's like very much part of my fam- my queer fam identity in that way of like...

And it feels empowering to me, and it feels like art. Mm. Like, I just like get to make art of myself- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ... and my, my body, and, uh, it rules. Mm-hmm. And yeah, just like b- making, having like beauty rituals and s- those spiritual connections, and even connecting to the space where my uterus was-

[00:35:22] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:35:22] Elmo: that, and it isn't anymore.

[00:35:24] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:35:25] Elmo: It feels like a reclamation of my body. You know, it was, it was such an empowered choice because I... And it, and it wasn't just like, "Oh, I'm having perimenopause, I wanna get rid of this." It's like, yeah, I have a lifetime of endometriosis.

[00:35:38] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:35:39] Elmo: My mom had... is still alive, but had endometrial cancer- Oh ... which came back an, bunch of times.

Dang. And it was like, it, for me it was never a, an if, but a when. Right. You know, as far as getting everything taken out because it, you know, for my own safety. And- Right ... um, perimenopause hit, and it ruined my life. Oh. It was like, I, the perimenopause for me was like wrecking, uh, s- me in ways that I, it was, I didn't understand what was happening to me.

[00:36:09] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:36:10] Elmo: Um, but anyway, that, we can put a pin in that maybe. But the, the, the reclama- like, the, the being able to have everything taken out-

[00:36:19] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:36:20] Elmo: and feeling more like, oh. And it's, and there's also this beautiful, like- Non-binary femme creature self that is more realized now, too Mm. It was also gender affirming.

Mm. And, you know, not only was it healthful and an empowering decision for my health, it was also for who I am, and which helped, which also is a connection to those spiritual spaces. But yeah, like feeling into that space where it, it isn't there anymore is like, yes, yes.

[00:36:56] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:36:57] Elmo: Oh, that feels good.

[00:36:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:36:59] Elmo: It feels good that it's not there anymore.

[00:37:01] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I imagine the, um... We talk about play, right, and you had specifically started the conversation there. It's hard to play when your hormones are raging, you're having all the chronic pain, and also there's this persistent worry about what it could do to your health, especially with your mother.

Like, how can you play in that part of the body when there's all that pain and fear?

[00:37:25] Elmo: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And now I get to discover that.

[00:37:31] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:37:31] Elmo: Now that all that pain is gone, you know? Mm-hmm. Now that all of that, the scar tissue and, you know, all of those things, and the worry and the... Now that that stuff is gone, it's like, okay.

[00:37:41] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:41] Elmo: Whoa, this is like a whole new being. It's like my- Yeah ... my whole sexual system is a new being now.

[00:37:48] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:48] Elmo: Mm-hmm. And I have to start all over. Or I get- Mm ... to start all over.

[00:37:51] Dr. Nicole: There's, yeah, there's the reframe. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And yeah, when I think about the solstice, right, and, and just this time of year, I, I think about wanting to do, like, you know, sexual rituals outdoors, but it's so chilly out in the Midwest.

Yeah. This is not ... Yeah. We're limited. We're limited in what is possible. Um, I'm curious if you've ever done any sort of, like, sex magic sort of intention setting with your erotic energy. Is that something you've explored in your past? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. I'm, I'm curious to hear where you're at with that, or what that journey has looked like, and whether we should sh- slow down for the listeners who might be wondering what that means.

[00:38:31] Elmo: Yeah. So not only have I done that in, in small contexts- Mm-hmm ... but I am part of a, a, a group in San Francisco called Black Leather Wings. Mm-hmm. Um, and it's a very... And we, there, we've had, like, rituals that are also play parties. Like, it begins- Mm-hmm ... and actually the performance I'm doing tonight is, uh, I'm doing kind of a, a calling in the quarters spoken word piece, like kink spoken word, erotic piece.

[00:38:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:58] Elmo: So the... I'm, I'm kind of like introducing that energy to the Midwest a little bit, 'cause it's been- I, I haven't really found much of it here

[00:39:06] Dr. Nicole: I've been looking. I look all the time. Yeah. I like tell my friends, I was like, "Where is it? Where is it?" I'm, I'm waiting. Yeah So

[00:39:14] Elmo: I mean, we can exchange- When you're ready

we can trade numbers

[00:39:16] Dr. Nicole: after this. Yeah, yeah. Let's

[00:39:18] Elmo: make it happen. Yeah. So we, you know, we would, um, have a big circle, a couple dozen people have a big circle, call on the quarters, and then that, then the space that we're in is a dungeon space- Mm ... and there, so there would be the energy raising that we do is, was the pl- the play that happened after-

[00:39:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm

[00:39:37] Elmo: the, um, the calling in and having that circle. Um, and you know, it's just like a bunch of kinky witches doing, like raising energy in all these beautiful, erotic and kinky ways. Um, rules. So yes. Yeah. Yeah So like, so like, to like, from group activities to smaller, you know, one-on-one experiences, we're, you know, calling, calling things in, calling in healing- Mm

calling in empowerment, calling in intentions and manifestations. And then w- with, and then raising the energy by raising those, um, erotic and, and kinky energies, and then releasing that, and that's the like, pshew, that's, that's the ritual kind of release- Yeah ... that we're, we're bringing things in, we're manifesting, or letting things go, depending on what it is.

[00:40:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So beautiful and powerful.

[00:40:31] Elmo: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:31] Dr. Nicole: And so let's start first with the group space. To the, to the listener who's just first starting to grasp any sense of what this can mean, I'm sure they're wondering like, "What does, what do you mean we're raising the energy?" Like, "What do we, what are we doing, Elmo?"

[00:40:47] Elmo: Yeah. So when you cast a spell There are so many different ways of doing it, and there are peop- there are so many different, um, r- like ancestral routes for people all over the world that have different ways of doing this, this kinds of thing, these kinds of things. There are also a lot of books about it.

There are also the kind of following your own magical intuition. There are not really a whole lot of wrong ways. But like the... So you're calling in the elements or intentions or deities that you like to work with, and, you know, you're utilizing y- whatever materials, whether it's like incense, oils, candles, stones, herbs, um, images, art, dance, you know, and like raising the energy to...

It's, it's magical energy, so like raising magical energy. And then, and then you release your spell into the universe to l- help, uh, so then it can come back to you. So then it can be what, be... Like you're releasing your intention, but you're, you're raising the energy, the vibration of it by doing something in the ritual space.

[00:42:02] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Is

[00:42:03] Elmo: that enough of-

[00:42:05] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I mean- Did you lose any people? The real- like I'm trailing with you. There- I'm sure there are people who have trailed off, you know?

[00:42:12] Elmo: Like- Sure ...

[00:42:12] Dr. Nicole: they're like, "Wait, what is the spell? Are we actually creating it with a wand? Is it showing up here? Like, what is it?" You know, so like at some point you just gotta say, "Ah, okay, if they don't get it, they don't get it," you know?

I can't... What I... So I'll, I'll chime in at least what, what, what I think of when I, when I... I have yet to do this intentionally in a group space. I- Mm-hmm ... you know, the kind of play spaces that I've gone into are like the Berlin techno rave, and it's like really loud music, sexual energy, or the like slow tantric, and it's less spell magic, at least sometimes.

But, um, or like a house and someone's having a house party, and it's very just like, "Oh, this is a house, and we fuck," you know? So I've yet to do this in a very intentional group way. But at least when I do it for myself, I think about- I think about spells, I think about spelling, I think about words and how powerful your words are to create the reality that you want.

Even the frame shift that you named earlier, right? Like, I get to figure out this next chapter of my life versus- Mm-hmm ... oh, I have to. And how much that moment of deciding those words creates the reality that, that you now move into for your existence. Mm. Like, that's a spell right there. Like, I get to experience this, and then you live into the magic of that.

And so when I think about, like, my own practices with eroticism and specifically the energy of orgasm, right, being able to, like, bring my body into that big state of pleasure, and truly when I'm in that state of ecstasy, to have the vision of where I wanna go with my life and who I wanna become, and to feel that at the same time, it's, I mean, it, for me it dismantles any level of shame about what that image is, because I'm in such a moment of ecstasy.

Yeah. And it's really pairing your nervous system into a state of pleasure around that vision that you're having. And, and for me, that doesn't mean that it shows up tomorrow or the next day. But what it does mean is that I carry myself with that energy.

[00:44:10] Elmo: Yes.

[00:44:10] Dr. Nicole: Right. And then therefore- Yes ... the, the universe and people respond to me, 'cause now I'm holding myself sitting up straight, and they feel that- Mm

I have that energy, and then things change.

[00:44:20] Elmo: Yeah. It changes your vibe.

[00:44:21] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:44:22] Elmo: Yeah, 100%. Exactly what you're saying. It changes your vibe, it changes your nervous system, the way, like you said, the way you're, like, sitting, standing, interacting with people. Yeah, and then people are responding differently, and that c- like, the ripples, whether you believe in any of this magic or anything or not, that is a change, and that does change things.

Um, that doesn't- that does change how people respond to you and maybe the kinds of conversations you have and maybe the kinds of doors that open and maybe the kind of like- Yes ... "Oh, you know what? You're trying to do this. I heard about this thing. You should talk to this person." You know? If it's, if it, if, if magic itself isn't real, that is.

[00:45:03] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. You know?

[00:45:04] Elmo: We know that that is.

[00:45:05] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Absolutely. So much so, right? It opens the doors, the next people, and, and the reality is, like, every sort of connection is almost like a song in and of itself. We could get into the vibration of that. But, like, there are certain people you meet, and you just naturally resonate with them, and you're like- Mm-hmm

"Wow, I really, I really liked that person." And we could get into the specifics of even the voice and the breath, right? It, you know, I, I know my previous self, who was so, you know, harmed by Christianity that- Mm ... any bit of the spirituality was something that I was so against. You know, you get so hurt that then your, you know, your, your walls are up against anything- Yeah

that feels woo-woo. And so- Yeah ... you know where I'm at now, I think I can respond to that younger part of myself a bit more and, and say, like, yeah, w- you know, we know in physics that sound is energy vibration, right? It's vibrating in your ears, and it's sound waves in that sense, right? Um, and there's energy in that.

And so if I come into a situation going, "Well, I'm so scared about my podcast and what's gonna happen. I'm not... I don't know. I don't know," like, you will start to pick up on that, Elma. All the listeners will start to pick up on that- Mm-hmm ... versus if I'm orgasming- Every time I make the show and I come in, I'm like, "No, this is modern anarchy.

Yeah. Ha. Ha." Like, you feel that in your body. And yes, absolutely that ripples through, right? And then so certain people will be attracted to that, just like certain people are attracted to certain music, and other people will be like, "That's just not my genre." And it's like, "That's cool." Yeah. "That's fine."

[00:46:44] Elmo: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:46:45] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:46] Elmo: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Exactly. And it's funny that you mention that, 'cause I was thinking about this recording today- Mm ... and I was like, "I haven't been having, like, mind-blowing sex. Like, what- ... what am I gonna talk about on Nicole's show?" And then I was like, "This." Thank you. I mean, like, obviously what I, the human s- thing that I'm going through-

[00:47:08] Dr. Nicole: Yeah

[00:47:09] Elmo: and, like, what i- what is here and what is alive, because that's, that's important for people to fucking know about and hear about- Yeah ... and to normalize and to be like, you know, it doesn't matter how well you think you know yourself in these couple of decades, you know, when it comes to this other decade, you gotta start all over.

[00:47:29] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:47:29] Elmo: You know? Mm-hmm. Or, you know, you gotta figure something out and just be with that and be okay with it.

[00:47:36] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:47:37] Elmo: So- Right ... and so that's, you know, now I'm ... That, and like, that's the Crone energy-

[00:47:42] Dr. Nicole: Mm,

[00:47:42] Elmo: mm ... that I'm bringing in. Mm. So, like, I don't know, and I'm fucking okay with not knowing.

[00:47:46] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:47:47] Elmo: And I think that's fucking fierce- Uh-huh

that I don't know and I'm just, I'm cool,

[00:47:51] Dr. Nicole: you know? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. You have the confidence to walk through that, and the reality is that so many people will resonate with that because I think especially as, you know, a therapist or a coach, there's this expectation to keep it all together.

Mm-hmm. You know, and we could get into the whole expectation of the tabula rasa, the ivory tower of the academic space- Yeah ... and all of that. Ugh. You know? The, the systems that killed the witches, let's be clear. Um- Sure.

[00:48:21] Elmo: Yep.

[00:48:22] Dr. Nicole: Right? Right. Uh, and so to be vulnerable and authentic, I know that's what people resonate with, right?

Mm-hmm. And I think that is such an essential part to do as someone who does help other people, because if we just come into this space of, like, "I have it all figured out and I'm helping you," what is the reality of what we're modeling for folks- Yeah ... that, like, you're, you're gonna get to the space where you no longer struggle?

Like, no, struggling is a part of the human condition. Mm-hmm.

[00:48:52] Elmo: Yeah. And as therapists, what are we asking our clients to do if not, like, break down ego and, like, rediscover self and be in a fucking caterpillar soup and be in this dark question mark of a, of a place sometimes of being like, "Wait, these things that I've been doing for a long time are not working. What does that mean?"

[00:49:11] Dr. Nicole: Mm. "

[00:49:12] Elmo: And if I'm not doing these things, who am I?" Yeah. You know, that if, if we're not allowing ourselves to be real with w- our own process, then kind of what, what we're asking our clients to do is... It's just, it's colonialism, right?

[00:49:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm-mm. Mm-hmm.

[00:49:29] Elmo: I mean, we could have a whole other fucking podcast episode. Yeah.

[00:49:32] Dr. Nicole: I'm like, "We need to talk about that one for sure." Mm-hmm. For sure. For sure. Yeah. But it, it's scary 'cause the systems tell you that, that you need to be perfect. Like, if, um... You know, I started talking about how I had had BV for about a year, and it was intense, and then started doing pelvic floor therapy just to work through that, and I had so much fear to talk about that because I'm like, "How dare I, the sex therapist, get to such a point where I worked so hard, I stopped listening to my body and was so stre-..."

You know, like, uh, but, like, that's so real. Yeah. That's the reality of it. Yeah. You know? And so, like, I think a huge part of breaking down these systems is being authentic when we're in the caterpillar soup because that means the next time that our clients and any of our community and ourself is in that space, we're not holding ourselves to this unrealistic sort of perfect, you know, archetype of the healed human that we're supposed to get to.

It's-

[00:50:24] Elmo: Yeah. Yeah. Which is an illusion.

[00:50:29] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:50:29] Elmo: That, like, perfectly healed person is... It's an illusion, and it's, it's an unattainable goal. Yeah. I've had people, I've had clients be like, "My goal is just be happy all the time." Ah. And I'm like, "I can't help you with that." Like, I straight up-

[00:50:42] Dr. Nicole: Do you tell them that during, like...

[00:50:44] Elmo: Yeah. I was like, "That's not-"

[00:50:45] Dr. Nicole: Do they come back, or do they...

[00:50:47] Elmo: Yeah. Good. 'Cause I

[00:50:48] Dr. Nicole: was like, "

[00:50:48] Elmo: That's an unrealistic goal." And, like, not only is it unrealistic, it's unhealthy-

[00:50:54] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:50:54] Elmo: to be happy all the time.

[00:50:56] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:57] Elmo: You need all of your emotions. Mm-hmm. They're information. Mm-hmm. That's, that's our navigation system.

[00:51:02] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:51:02] Elmo: You know? To, to, to say thing... Like, "This is okay with me. This is not okay with me." It's our protection. It's our, you know, connection. Yeah. It's, like, grief, sadness, anger, you know, like, frustration. All these things. Like, we need all of them. It's not healthy- Yeah ... to just be happy all the time. That means you're probably dissociating.

Right? You have to be. Like, you're probably dissociating a lot if you're- Yeah ... like, "I'm just happy all the time."

[00:51:27] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, you have to be, right? If that's the case. Uh, the motto, I always talk about a motto. I don't know. I, I just like to really say this phrase that we cry hard and we come hard.

[00:51:38] Elmo: Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

[00:51:40] Dr. Nicole: Because we can't pick and choose what emotions we feel. I feel like this first was very clear when I was reading The Ethical Slut. I feel like they brought a lot of that framing into it- Mm-hmm ... of like, "Hey, if you wanna go down this path, just be aware you're gonna feel everything a lot more." Yeah. Both the, the good, the bad, the sad, the beautiful, all of it.

Mm-hmm. You don't get to pick and choose what you feel, right? When you feel, you feel all of it. And so I think that is such an important, you know, piece to really ground is the person who's like, "I'm always happy. It's great. My relationships are perfect. I never have any struggle." They're either lying to you, right?

Or they're so numb that they're not noticing the pain and they're just, like, spiritually bypassing it, which eventually will hit. There will be a damn moment where that, that breaks and shatters. Something will hit, and then we won't have the skills of how to sit with all the pain and the, the difficult experiences of the human condition.

Right. Grief is inevitable. Death is inevitable. Yeah. Us, whether it's us or our friends first, our pets that we go- Like, it is inevitable part of the human condition, right? And we can embrace that for the beauty that it is, but we also need to be with the pain of it without overriding it.

[00:52:52] Elmo: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:52:55] Dr. Nicole: And so I'm curious for you, right?

Modern energy, I don't have this hot sex and this phase. I'm in the caterpillar soup. How do you hold yourself in grief? What are your own practices that you ground in when you're feeling these moments of the unknown and, and, and these waves of the human existence?

[00:53:12] Elmo: Ooh, that's a good question. Yeah. That's a great question.

[00:53:16] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:53:17] Elmo: Yeah. For me, it's getting creative.

[00:53:20] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:20] Elmo: It's, it's making something. You know, like I said, I've been getting, I've been really, uh, getting into sewing. Yeah. And what I'm really into in a very also, like, anti-capitalist way is, like, old clothes, like, garage sales and thrifted clothes and cutting things up and sewing them back together and, like, creating my own fashion out of, uh, just upcycled things that already exist.

So I- it's also like what I'm doing with myself. Yeah. Like, breaking, like, breaking things down that used to fit, that don't fit anymore. Mm-hmm. Don't fit my style, don't maybe fit my body the same. Cutting them up, piecing them with other things, with newer things, and creating a whole new piece, right? It's like, it's fucking awesome.

I'm so ... And, and sewing is so hard. Yeah. I'm like, it's so hard. It's such a frustrating hobby, but it's so- ... cool to be able to- Mm ... to break these things down and make new things.

[00:54:18] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:19] Elmo: And also, you know, I've just been really into- Moving, like moving my body, Pilates and yoga, and, uh, z- just do- do- getting into my body and movement and getting dressed, being, uh, beauty rituals, like I said.

Like these, uh, kind of like I'm ... I know that I'm in this grief space- Yeah ... in a lot of ways. I'm also going through a really painful breakup that happened- Hmm ... like, uh, end of summer.

[00:54:49] Dr. Nicole: Hmm.

[00:54:50] Elmo: Um, and I've been in this really intense grief space around that, as well as all of these- Yeah ... biological changes and things like that.

Mm-hmm. So I have, I've been holding a lot of gri- and of course, like fucking the world. There's- Yeah ... there's just, like endless, endless grief.

[00:55:06] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:55:07] Elmo: So there's a, there's like a radical acceptance practice of like, this is where I'm at. I'm in this grief space, and I'm making beautiful things too. Like, there's that yes and.

Like, I, yes, I am in this grief space, and I'm making beauty. Mm-hmm. I'm putting beautiful things in the world, including myself.

[00:55:27] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I was thinking about the sewing of the, um, old garments, the garments that don't fit, and sewing it into something new. I was like, what a beautiful metaphor for the chapter that you're in, truly.

Yeah.

[00:55:38] Elmo: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[00:55:41] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:55:42] Elmo: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:43] Dr. Nicole: And so- What about

[00:55:43] Elmo: you?

[00:55:44] Dr. Nicole: Oh,

[00:55:44] Elmo: yeah. What are

[00:55:44] Dr. Nicole: your- Yeah, right. Yeah. Flip the switch. Here we go.

[00:55:47] Elmo: Yeah. What, what are your, like-

[00:55:49] Dr. Nicole: My- ...

[00:55:50] Elmo: grief rituals and, and how are you, how are you holding grief right now?

[00:55:57] Dr. Nicole: Well, there's a Post-It Note I can look at, and it says, "What to do when you're sad."

Um, it includes, "Get high and dance to Hurt It In A Past Life by Maggie Rogers."

[00:56:08] Elmo: Mm-hmm. "

[00:56:08] Dr. Nicole: Read a book and let your mind digest ideas. Reread your journal and ground yourself in you and the fluctuations of time. Watch a sad movie and release your emotions. Fresh air always heals."

[00:56:22] Elmo: Mm-hmm. "

[00:56:22] Dr. Nicole: Move your body, walk, climb, flow.

Reach out on your com- reach out to your community."

[00:56:29] Elmo: Mm-hmm. "

[00:56:30] Dr. Nicole: Shower and start a new life."

It's so true. Sometimes you just gotta get in the shower, and then it just goes-

[00:56:37] Elmo: Yeah ...

[00:56:38] Dr. Nicole: ah, okay.

[00:56:39] Elmo: Yes. Okay.

[00:56:40] Dr. Nicole: Yes. The last thing I added to this list, there's still space for more, so I'll have to think about it, but the last thing I added to the list was, "Listen to sexy music, you dirty slut."

So I must have been somewhere with that last one. You know, that, that Post-It Note- Yeah ... has been there for a long time, and so over time I like add something there to it. Um, so, so yeah. I mean, I feel like- Uh, something I try to do when I'm in grief is just remind myself that it's probably not as bad as I think.

I feel like I tend to... I feel like as an artist and a creative person, part of our work is to imagine possibilities, imagine possibilities, imagine possibilities, imagine possibilities. And so that part of my- Mm-hmm ... artist capacity is very strong, and if there's a sense of doubt or fear, then that part is still really strong, and now can imagine all of the worst-case scenario possibilities.

Mm, mm-hmm. And so I've been doing a lot of work to just remind myself that, like, it's probably gonna be way better than you imagine. It's probably gonna be way better than you imagine. 'Cause I clearly have the, like, grief of the worst-case scenario already there. I don't need to work on that. You know, I need to...

I personally need to step into the more, like, pleasure-filled confidence- Yeah ... confidence part, you know?

[00:57:56] Elmo: Yeah.

[00:57:57] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:57:58] Elmo: Oh, what I love about take a shower and start a new life is that it implies that you can start a new life every day. Like, any, any moment of any day, you can take a shower and start a new life.

I love that. I am taking that with me. Please.

[00:58:14] Dr. Nicole: That

[00:58:15] Elmo: rules.

[00:58:15] Dr. Nicole: Please do. Please do. Please do. Um, I do have an affirmation that I do, not every morning 'cause I'm a human being that has inf- like, fluctuations of my ability to focus- Mm-hmm ... you know? But when I do, in there the affirmation it says, uh, "There's only this next moment and how I choose to meet it."

[00:58:36] Elmo: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. Yeah '

[00:58:41] Dr. Nicole: Cause it's like, well, the rest of it already happened, so it- I feel like that's that bit of mindfulness and, and the power of being able to- Oh, yeah ... author your own life, right? Because we can get so lost in the story of the who am I? What am, what am I doing? Where am I going? Who am I?

What am I doing? Where am I going? Versus sitting in the space of, oh, I get to choose. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, what are the values I want to have? H- where do I want my life to go? Of course, with the knowing that we can't control the universe and what life presents us, right? That is completely outside of our control, right?

But how do I wanna show up, and what values do I want to align myself with? Those pieces are within our control, and so I feel like that's the moment where- Yeah ... rather than looking to the past and spiraling into trying to find the narrative of who we are, which there's a time and a place for that, don't get me wrong, but like really stepping into that moment of authorship for your life.

Like-

[00:59:33] Elmo: Hell yeah ...

[00:59:34] Dr. Nicole: I've got the book, and here's the pen. I'm gonna do this.

[00:59:38] Elmo: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:59:40] Dr. Nicole: So yeah, take the shower and start that process.

[00:59:43] Elmo: Yes.

[00:59:44] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:45] Elmo: The more choices we have in a moment, the freer we are.

[00:59:49] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:59:49] Elmo: Like, the, that question of how do I wanna meet this moment, that's like, that's recovery. Like, when I talk about with my clients, like- Mm

recovery is freedom. Recovering is having more choices and, and instead of having that automatic like, "I'm stressed, I do this."

[01:00:06] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:00:06] Elmo: Or like, "This happened, and I do this," it's we- when we can, like, take a beat and slow down and say something like that, like, "How do I wanna meet this moment?" That's recovery.

[01:00:18] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:18] Elmo: That's emotional recovery, right? Mm-hmm. That's freedom.

[01:00:22] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:22] Elmo: That's empowerment.

[01:00:24] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. And the spaces where we, um- react out of that knee-jerk reaction, often those are some of our more hurt parts, right? Mm-hmm. The, you know, that moment you're with a partner or a lover or something, you just have that knee-jerk reaction of that's how you respond.

Yes. We get into the defensiveness or we make some sort of accusation that it's always like this, right? Those are the moments you go like, "Wow, my body got really activated there and that seemed to came out of no- okay, there's something to unpack over in that corner," right?

[01:00:57] Elmo: Yeah, there's something. There's a, ooh, there's a box that I didn't, I haven't thought about in a couple years.

Exactly. I thought I had unpacked that and- I

[01:01:02] Dr. Nicole: mean...

[01:01:04] Elmo: Didn't even take the tape off.

[01:01:06] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. Exactly. I thought I put that box in the basement. Why is that here? It's a humbling process, truly. Yeah. A humbling process, 'cause you're like, damn, okay. Okay. Yes. Um, but yeah, I feel like when we, you know, you spoke about wanting to go into the shadow.

I'm thinking about that. Yeah, the, the box that's in the basement. Mm-hmm. How would you describe shadow work and, and what that means to you? Oh. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[01:01:35] Elmo: Uh, yes. So shadow, my, my shadow work practice is also how I'm kind of able to be in this dark space and be like, "All right."

[01:01:43] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:01:44] Elmo: All right, here we are.

Like, you know, because the shadow work is It's all of the things about yourself that you either don't see necessarily or you don't wanna s- you're like, "No, that's not me," or it's l- a little bit compartmentalized, but, like, your friends see it.

[01:02:07] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:02:07] Elmo: You know what I mean? It's like those parts of ourselves that, like, we don't...

But, like, we're like, "No, that's not, that's not me," and your friends are like, "Pfft."

[01:02:15] Dr. Nicole: I've only gotten that feedback from my whole community, but my community is wrong. My community doesn't get it. Those are the moments you're like, "Oh, shit. Okay. Well..."

[01:02:24] Elmo: Yeah. And I think, but I think what a lot of folks think about shadow, they think about the parts that you don't like.

Yeah. But your shadow is also your talents.

[01:02:33] Dr. Nicole: Mm. It's

[01:02:33] Elmo: also the things that you're awesome at that you don't acknowledge.

[01:02:37] Dr. Nicole: Oh. It's

[01:02:37] Elmo: also, like, how you show up that people appreciate that you don't really th- see or think about sometimes. So it's not just what, you know, parts that you're, you're... that don't feel good.

[01:02:51] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:02:51] Elmo: Um, or that feel, like, shamey or things like that. Mm-hmm. It's sometimes it's, it's your power- Mm ... that you're, that you're not acknowledging or you're not, um, accessing right now. Yeah. Um, that's also shadow work. Mm-hmm. So it's, it's, it's so many things. And sometimes it's neutral things that you just, like, didn't realize about yourself.

So it's, like, being able to break down who I think I am and accepting who I actually am.

[01:03:21] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:03:22] Elmo: That's shadow. I mean, that's, like, that's shadow work right there. That's- Yeah ... like, to, to, to just put a hu- a, a hugely broad definition on it. Um-

[01:03:32] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[01:03:32] Elmo: yeah.

[01:03:33] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, and it's so interesting because when I was in monogamous dynamics, there was only one person who really saw me in the lived reality of the sex and romance phase, and then having multiple connections, it is really fascinating when you're sitting with all of those people and you're processing and then, like, three of your lovers give you the same feedback.

You're like, "Well, in this space you kinda get," like... And I'm like, "Wait, is... Oh, gosh. Do I?" You know?

[01:04:00] Elmo: Yep. Common denominator.

[01:04:02] Dr. Nicole: And you're like, all your partners. I'm like, "Okay. Well, I guess maybe I should listen." So it's a bit of a... It's like a big pulling out of the shadow when you have multiple people who can look at you versus, you know, when it's the one, you can be like, "Ah, that one is just, I don't know, they're not getting it," you

[01:04:15] Elmo: know?

Yeah. You

[01:04:16] Dr. Nicole: get enough partners, that's, you know, that's the scary side of polyamory is all of your partners call you in, and then you're like, "Damn. Got it." Yep. "Got it. I'm listening. Okay, guys. Don't unionize against me." No. Don't unionize. Un- unions are great. You know, I always make that joke. I'm like, "You guys can unionize against me.

I'll listen. I'll listen." They usually just want different shade. You know, the heater is too hot in my apartment, you know, stuff like that. These are the complaints I get.

We need a fan, Nicole.

[01:04:48] Elmo: Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And then you get to decompartmentalize. You have to be like, "Oh, wait. Okay, information about me" and, and integrate, you know. Parts work. Shadow work is parts work. It's like- Yeah ... you know, people are doing, like, IFS a lot, and, like, there are ... And IFS is not the only parts work system, I think it's important to say, because I think people are like, "IFS is parts work," but there are so many different systems.

And, you know, uh, and thou- thousands of years old from many parts of the world. Like, it is not new in any, in any way, shape, or form. Um, and there are- Right ... so many different ways of, of doing it. Um- Yeah ... but yeah, like, integration. That's, that's what ... It's like integrating these parts of these different aspects of self, of like, oh, that's also me.

Mm-hmm. I am, like, really sweet. I'm also a bitch. Like, I am a fucking bitch. Yeah. Like, if I get to like, a point, and like- Yeah ... I have a lot of integrity, and I'm petty as fuck, you know? Mm-hmm. Like, there, there, there's just, like, being able to ... You know, I'm easygoing. I'm also high maintenance.

[01:05:50] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. You

[01:05:51] Elmo: know?

Like, being able to claim those things can also be, like, kind of a relief. I mean, when I, when I reclaimed things like being a bitch- Mm ... 'cause I've always been really nice, very sweet- Mm. Mm ... you know, like, my personality, very giggly.

[01:06:04] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:06:04] Elmo: Um, so, like, reclaiming the word bitch, it's my favorite word. Bitch is my- Yeah

favorite word- Mm ... because it's so versatile. And, like, when somebody is like, affectionately calls me bitch, I'm like, "We're friends." Oh. You know? Like, that's ... It's like we're- Hey, bitch. So being able-

[01:06:21] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:06:21] Elmo: Yeah. I'm like, bitch, what is a bitch other than, you know, someone who cannot be controlled by the patriarchy- Mm.

Right ... or, you know, like, negatively influenced by the patriarchy instead, you know? So there's that, and also- Mm-hmm ... reclaiming being high maintenance- Ah ... 'cause I was, like, one of the cool girls, and like, you know- Right ... so, like, easy for guys to, like- Right ... talk to or be with and stuff. Right. And, like, you know, now I'm like, "I'm not."

Like, I am an ... I am, like, one of those exotic pets that needs a lot of, like, really specialized care. Mm. And if you can't, then, like, you shouldn't have me. You should have ... You know, you're an outdoor cat kind of person. Right. And that's fine, but that's not me.

[01:06:59] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:06:59] Elmo: Mm. You know?

[01:06:59] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:00] Elmo: Mm-hmm. So, like, that's some of the shadow

Like, a lot of the shadow work, uh, is, like- Also that. It's like- Right ... 'cause when you can reclaim parts like that, then you can... It's like, oh, it just feels so good. Yeah. And it feel, and it feel- it's uncomfortable at first- Right ... because there's, like, this, this it's not safe to be high maintenance- Yes ... 'cause people won't like you as much.

[01:07:22] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:07:22] Elmo: It's not safe to be a bitch because people won't like you as much, like.

[01:07:25] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:07:25] Elmo: But then you get to incorporate that, and you get to be less of a people pleaser, and you get to be more authentic, and you get to show up in ways, and people, and attract people who are into the real authentic you and love that.

Uh, so yeah.

[01:07:41] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Yeah. So important to talk about this. A- and I love that you grounded the parts work conversation in ancient wisdom, right? Because all the way, all the way back, even Buddhism, right, like the, the- Mm-hmm ... monkey mind versus the observing self. Like, there- there's-

[01:07:55] Elmo: Oh, yeah ...

[01:07:55] Dr. Nicole: parts right there, like, w- w- way before this, like, current...

Even Freud, the, had the id, the ego, the super ego, like parts work, right? Like- Yeah. Yeah ... parts work is, yeah, has existed for, like, so many parts- Yeah ... or however or years- And- ... ages. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:08:08] Elmo: Carl, yeah, Carl Jung and The Shadow, like, that's all- Yeah ... we talking about. It's Carl Jung's- Oh,

[01:08:11] Dr. Nicole: yeah ...

[01:08:12] Elmo: work, you

[01:08:12] Dr. Nicole: know?

Right, the collective unconscious, all of it. Yeah. Yep, yep. Yeah, and I think, you know, as you were saying, like, "Oh, there's a part of me that's a bitch and high maintenance," yeah, there's, there's a, a part of me that's like, "I don't wanna claim that. I don't wanna claim that." Mm. "I'm not that. Elma, I'm not a bitch.

Like, that's so bad." And then the problem with that, though, is that's when it comes out unconsciously. Oh,

[01:08:34] Elmo: yeah.

[01:08:35] Dr. Nicole: When we're afraid to claim the shadow, then we're like- Yep ... "I'm never this," and then we get hangry, and it comes out, rather than integrating the, the wisdom that, like, I have that part of me, and it exists, and I know that.

And then that amount of acceptance embrace allows us to be way more aware of when it does come out. 'Cause if you put it into the shadow, you're not gonna be aware 'cause you're like, "I'm never that person." Mm-hmm. So you're not even s- being sensitive to when it could come. And then the next level that I was thinking about is how much easier it makes us to other, other, um...

how much easier it makes to other people who have done harmful, difficult things, right? And it's so much easier when you look at someone who's done something bad and say, "Well, they're that t- type of person. I would never. I could never." Right? Mm-hmm. The more that we integrate the shadow to understand that, like, the capacity to do harmful, really horrific things is inside all of us-

[01:09:31] Elmo: Yes.

Yes ...

[01:09:34] Dr. Nicole: the more extension of empathy and care that we can extend to make this a better world.

[01:09:39] Elmo: Yes, 100%. 100% that. Every human being on this planet is capable of gaslighting, of emotional abuse, of, you know, being controlling, of all, you know, all of these different things. And I, a lot of times we label that as like, oh, nar- that's something narcissists do.

You know, and even being narcissistic, everybody has the capacity to be narcissistic. Not everybody has, you know, all of the per- you know, the-

[01:10:09] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[01:10:10] Elmo: access B personality- Mm ... just, like, diagnosable traits.

[01:10:13] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:10:14] Elmo: But everybody has capacity to be narcissistic. And the more we're like, "Oh, I, you, you know, I, I'm not gaslighting you 'cause I'm not a narcissist," it's like, it's, you know

But you're, you ... Then it's, like, harder to hold people accountable. It's hard to hold yourself accountable, hard for your loved ones to hold you accountable when you don't believe that you're capable of doing XYZ, when literally every person on the planet is capable of doing those things. Mm-hmm. Everybody gaslights sometimes.

Mm-hmm. Everybody does it. Like, parents gaslight- Mm ... their kids all the time.

[01:10:48] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:10:48] Elmo: Like, "No, honey, nothing happened. Everything's okay." You know?

[01:10:51] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. You're ... It's,

[01:10:52] Elmo: it's like, you know, and it doesn't, that's like, and even that is like, where is the nuance in that? Because sometimes you're protecting your psych- the psychological safety of your child in that moment, and, like, it is, you're adult, it is gaslighting.

[01:11:08] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:11:09] Elmo: It's like, where's the, where's the nuance? Like, there's so much nuance. There's so much, like, you kinda have to throw away words like right and wrong sometimes in those situations. But at the same time, you know, not in your, uh, adult relationships and, and not in certain s- situations. Again, nuance.

[01:11:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:11:26] Elmo: Um, but anyway, yes.

[01:11:28] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:11:28] Elmo: Yeah. Yeah. Everybody's capable of everything. Mm-hmm. Everybody's capable of every action and every behavior and every choice.

[01:11:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:11:36] Elmo: And you have to, uh, as soon as you're like, "Well, I'm not that kind of person," you're limiting yourself. You're totally limiting yourself. You're limiting your growth.

You're limiting your relationships. You're, you know, limiting the intimacy you can have with people. Yeah, so, uh, just like n- just reclaiming like I... That's something I don't want to do, and I'm going to stay aware so that I don't.

[01:12:03] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, and I think that gives you the empathy for the other people around you.

You're a little bit softer. That's not to say- Mm-hmm ... without boundaries and- Mm-hmm ... protection and all of those good things, but you also have that understanding, and then are softer towards the transformation that people can go through. And when we're not throwing people away, right? This is where we come into transformational justice.

Yes. 'Cause when we don't, we start mo- the moment we're like, "Ah, that other bad thing," yeah, we've disconnected from the shadow and the capacity in ourself and the transformation that is possible. And-

[01:12:34] Elmo: Mm-hmm ...

[01:12:35] Dr. Nicole: when I think about the power of the erotic specifically, I think this is a huge space, specifically in the, the kink, you know, capacities to be able to play with the different parts of yourself, right?

For a long time, you know, when I was first coming into it, I was like, "There's no, I'm not a dom. I'm not a top. I'm ps, ps, ps, ps, ps." You know what I mean, right? Versus saying like, "Oh, that is a part of me." Yeah. And I can tap into that. Yeah. Maybe it's a part I haven't tapped into in a long time. Maybe lots of patriarchal narratives have been inside my head.

Oh, what a concept. What a concept. Where's my powerful dom? I don't, I don't see her very often on the media, you know? Yeah. And so- Yeah ... it's like the moment you start to embrace that, you can have all these. And I think s- for some people, especially if you're getting into more, you know, sadistic parts, right?

That can be really scary for people. Like- Mm-hmm ... "No, I, I could, I, there's not a part of me that enjoys inflicting. No, no." Right? Mm-hmm. Versus being able to like explore that in spaces with the full consent of everybody there. And, and it can be quite, you know, a psychological, um, ego death becoming process to unpack that like we have these parts inside of us.

[01:13:47] Elmo: Yes. Yeah, that's one of my favorite things about kink is playing ... That's what we're doing is playing with shadow. We're playing with taboo. We're playing with these parts of ourselves that, you know, we might otherwise be afraid of acknowledging or, you know, like I can- can I like t- tap into being like a, a bitch goddess?

Or, you know, can I tap into being controlling? Can I tap into being sadistic? Can I tap into ... Or, or on the, the receiving side, like can I tap into like really lean into my people pleasing and like can I really lean into g- g- giving up control to someone? Can I really lean into these things? And like when we can play with those in safe contexts, then we

Look, guess what we're doing? We're fucking integrating the shadow. Yeah.

[01:14:40] Dr. Nicole: Transmuting. Off. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:14:42] Elmo: Mm-hmm. Jeff kiss all around.

[01:14:44] Dr. Nicole: I know. I know. I know, um, a lot of my non-monogamous clients will come in, especially couples, and they'll um, you know, we're processing new connections with other people, their first experiences with metamors, right?

And they're like, you know, like, "Well, I have this scene. I don't know how I feel about it." I'm like, "Okay. Well, like what's the scene you're craving?" "Uh, I don't know. I don't know." I'm gonna like, "Okay, like what, what, what, what ... Is this, you know, a safe place? Come here. Tell me, tell me, tell me." They're like, "Well, I really wanna have this cuckolding scene where I put my metamor in the corner, and they have to watch me fuck our mutual partner."

You're like- Yeah ...

[01:15:19] Elmo: listeners can't see you. You're laughing, you're smiling. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[01:15:21] Dr. Nicole: Um, what I usually remind them is, "Great, I'm so glad that you named that, and now we have the capacity to invite everyone in the space to consensually play with that part of yourself- Mm-hmm ... if they're on board." And you know what's really beautiful about that?

Is that is so much better than being unwilling to acknowledge the desire and then have it come out in sideways weird-ass shit. Yeah Where you're like, "Well, no, I'm not gonna invite you to my birthday. I'm gonna make that... She doesn't get the invite," you know? Yeah. And like you're essentially doing it in this unconscious way like- Yep

ah. So it's like I really wanna invite people to like embrace what that craving they have, that longing, and then bring it into the consensual safe conversations to have with other people. So like you're saying, you can transmute it and work through it very directly rather than the unconscious messy sideways shit that comes out often.

[01:16:15] Elmo: Mm. Mm-hmm. Yes, exactly. It's gonna come out anyway. Yeah. Like whether or not you're acknowledging it- ... it's gonna come out anyway, and it, it's probably, it- with a, with less mindfulness, it's gonna be uglier.

[01:16:29] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly. Exactly, exactly, exactly. So set the scene, folks. Create the scene, right?

[01:16:34] Elmo: Yeah.

[01:16:34] Dr. Nicole: And integrate it.

Yeah. That's a huge piece. I, I feel like, you know, in the psychedelic space, you know, well, I guess this is still up and coming, but in the psychedelic space, there's this really big emphasis on the importance of integration, right? Mm. We have this transformative ego death place. You're going all of that, right?

But the most, the biggest part of it is the integration afterwards where you're sharing how it's transforming where you're going, what you're moving into. And the same thing with kink. Like I love those moments where, you know, sure you have the big scene, you're in the subspace, the, you know, dom s- like whatever it is you're in.

But then to have the circle afterwards with all the people that were a part of that scene and like, "Yeah, so how did it feel to tap into that sadistic part?" Yeah. "How did it feel to claim this?" And that's also where of course the safety comes forward too, is we can name like- Mm ... well, I think that was too far.

Here's what I'm knowing now this time as a signal for myself. All of those sorts of pieces. But like it's also where we can really transform our sense of self by talking about these things we're uncovering.

[01:17:32] Elmo: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And to have it accepted.

[01:17:36] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:17:36] Elmo: Huge. That's the other beautiful part of kink, is like I can be, I can express the shadow, and the other person is like, "Hell yes."

You know? In those moments where you're like, "Okay, maybe it's a little bit safer for me to integrate this into who I am. Maybe I can be a little bit more high-maintenance. Maybe I can be more of a, a bitch. Maybe I..." You know, by bitch, I, you know, I don't mean like abusive. I mean- Direct Yeah ... you know, saying what you really feel, saying what you really think, um, in a way that is, um,

non-violent, right? Like, and but, like, also direct, and can be uncomfortable and assertive, and the other person might get uncomfortable. Um, and like, you know, maybe I can be more X, Y, Z because I did that in this safe context of a scene when the person was not just okay with it, but so fucking into

[01:18:29] Dr. Nicole: it. Yeah.

Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah Craving more. Yeah. Yes.

[01:18:34] Elmo: Yeah.

[01:18:36] Dr. Nicole: And so Elmo, I'm curious, when we look all the way back to that younger version of you, the one that is first stepping into these play spaces all the way in San Francisco. I'm gonna say that again, 'cause I didn't say it very confidently. So when we look back to that younger version of you, Elmo- Mm-hmm

first stepping into those play spaces in San Francisco, what words of advice, wisdom would you share with your younger self?

[01:19:05] Elmo: Oh, wow. That's a good question, because I, I had wonderful guidance.

[01:19:12] Dr. Nicole: Good, yeah.

[01:19:13] Elmo: Like, my, my younger, the, my 22-year-old self stepping into that world had mentors- Good ... that I am so grateful for to- Yeah

and still love and am connected to to this day. And- Good ... oh, what is other advice? Um-

Uh, oh, there's something in there about expectations and, uh, acceptance of, like, where I was, because there were... Because I was involved in some of the, the communities and the trainings that I received- Mm ... when I was, had, uh, partners or lovers, they had really high expectations of me as a kink practitioner.

[01:19:59] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:19:59] Elmo: And so, and I was like, oh. And, like, sometimes I would, like, uh, m- make myself smaller-

[01:20:06] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[01:20:07] Elmo: because I didn't know if I could live up to some of those expectations-

[01:20:11] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[01:20:12] Elmo: that people were putting on me, even to this day, you know?

[01:20:14] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah,

[01:20:15] Elmo: yeah. You know, 'cause I've now, you know, obviously I go on podcasts and I talk about this, and I do- Mm-hmm

you know, I do, I, like, present at grad schools and stuff like that- Yeah ... around this stuff. But, like-

[01:20:23] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[01:20:24] Elmo: um, yeah, just, like- Being okay with not knowing and being okay with, like, letting people know, "Yes, I have studied these things, but I have not studied you."

[01:20:39] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:20:40] Elmo: Right? 'Cause you can have all the training and experience in the world, but every time you're with a new person, you gotta, uh, it's, you know, that person is, is a new thing.

This is a new topic. This is a new nervous system. This is a new pr- new person with their own history, their own emotional landscape- Yeah ... their own relational landscape-

[01:20:57] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[01:20:58] Elmo: and their own desire, erotic landscape. All of these different- Yeah ... things. And so, like, beginner, always have beginner mindset.

Always be ready to kind of break something down, what you th- break down what you think you know and, uh, just receive. Like just- Mm ... just staying curious and just receive, and encouraging the people that are involved with you to do the same- Yeah ... and to be in that kind of practice rather than, um, you know, like, h- so that both of you are not having these unrealistic expectations of what's about to happen.

[01:21:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And that allows you to be more human, authentic, all of those good things, right? Mm-hmm. And which is a lot of what you've done today in terms of being in the caterpillar soup.

[01:21:53] Elmo: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:21:54] Dr. Nicole: To allow yourself to be free of those expectations, even now as you come on a podcast and what that means, and the expectations of hot sex or what, you know?

Yeah. The whole thing, you know? Like, sh- you're, you're giving yourself that gift now to just be exactly where you are.

[01:22:09] Elmo: Yeah. Yeah. And it's a huge, it's a huge gift.

[01:22:13] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:22:14] Elmo: That's, that's the biggest, uh, gift that I think we can give ourselves and each other- Mm-hmm ... is to just allow where you're at right now to be where you're at, and to hold it with kindness-

[01:22:28] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm

[01:22:28] Elmo: and to allow each other to be where they're at and hold that with kindness.

[01:22:31] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And when the episode comes out in six months, where do you wanna be?

[01:22:40] Elmo: Ooh. Ah. Love that.

[01:22:42] Dr. Nicole: That's my favorite question, is like, sure, past, past, but also, like, the future. Where are we going?

[01:22:46] Elmo: Totally. Yeah. Totally. This has also been a l- like-

[01:22:51] Dr. Nicole: Spells

[01:22:51] Elmo: there's a, there's a lot of like-

[01:22:52] Dr. Nicole: Cast your spells.

[01:22:54] Elmo: It's so, it's so hard to, to know, I think because I'm so, I'm in, like, the present so much right now- Mm-hmm ... that I'm like, and I'm so like, "I don't know." Like, I, and I'm- Yeah ... I'm, I a- I don't know even what to hope for-

[01:23:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[01:23:08] Elmo: because I'm in this, I'm in such a strong I-don't-know

[01:23:12] Dr. Nicole: place right now.

Yeah, yeah,

[01:23:13] Elmo: yeah, yeah. But I do hope to have more, like- I'm just thinking somatically, I'm hoping to have more movement

[01:23:20] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:23:21] Elmo: More, more free movement in my body.

[01:23:23] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:23:25] Elmo: And more, like, energy movement in my body, um, and coming through me, whatever that means and whatever that looks like I, I would love to be less calculated.

Um, but like, like finding that balance between mindful and calculated, right?

[01:23:49] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:23:50] Elmo: Of like, n- you know, being like, okay, like, aligned with my values, but like, holy shit, just like, let it go sometimes. Yeah. Just like, cut loose sometimes.

[01:23:59] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah. Just live.

[01:24:02] Elmo: Just live. Just be a human person. Just be a, a fucking flawed, shadowed- Yep, yep, yep

like-

[01:24:08] Dr. Nicole: Caterpillar ...

[01:24:08] Elmo: person. Oh, yeah, six months from now. Yeah. Um, yeah. There, uh, there, there's just like, so much more cool stuff that I'm, that I have coming up. I'm gonna be teaching, like, more workshops, and I'm-

[01:24:25] Dr. Nicole: Cool ...

[01:24:26] Elmo: uh, connected with this retreat center out here in Wisconsin now- Oh, wow ... called the Sienna Retreat Center, and I'm doing two half, um, retreats.

I don't have the dates yet, but I'm gonna... They want me for two half retreats-

[01:24:39] Dr. Nicole: Very

[01:24:39] Elmo: cool ... this year, and then after those, we're gonna talk about some, um, longer, um, content, like doing more kind of like retreat retreats. So-

[01:24:49] Dr. Nicole: Amazing ...

[01:24:50] Elmo: so excited about that.

[01:24:51] Dr. Nicole: Keep me updated, yeah.

[01:24:53] Elmo: Yeah. So I think- Mm-hmm ... that there's a lot of really fun, creative stuff-

[01:24:57] Dr. Nicole: Beautiful

[01:24:57] Elmo: coming.

[01:24:58] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, amazing. Yeah, it's so great to hold that space of where we wanna step into. What it will look like, can't control that part. Where exactly we'll be, who knows? But these are the things we're calling in, right? Yeah. These are the spells we're casting for the next six months of where you wanna go for this year.

[01:25:15] Elmo: Right.

[01:25:16] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Well, Elmo, as we're coming towards the end of our time today, we've covered so many beautiful, beautiful things, and I'm so, so deeply grateful for your authenticity, and I trust that it will resonate with all of the listeners who have found themselves in similar spaces or are in that same space right now.

And as we come towards the end of our time, I'm gonna take a really nice, big, full, deep breath with you.

And then I'll check in and see if there's anything else that you wanna share with the listeners. Otherwise, I have our closing question.

[01:25:53] Elmo: Ooh. Nothing comes to mind.

[01:25:57] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Great. I

[01:25:58] Elmo: think there was a, there was a good, uh... Yeah, I feel like there was a really good flow.

[01:26:03] Dr. Nicole: Good. Hell yeah. Yeah. Amazing. And you know there'll be another check-in in X amount of years, you know?

So, there'll be more space. We'll check in. Um, all right, so the closing question that I ask everyone on the show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:26:24] Elmo: Oh, what is one thing that I wish everybody knew was more normal? Oh, that's a fucking great question. Yeah.

Take your time. I think right now it's this The, the caterpillar state, the becoming, that we're all just kind of like becoming And you don't have to f- you don't have to know everything. You just have to stay curious.

[01:26:57] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, I find that state so empowering, truly, because it, it's really that moment, like, yeah, go take the shower, start a new life.

[01:27:05] Elmo: Yeah.

[01:27:06] Dr. Nicole: Decide in this moment right here that this is where I'm realigning. Now, the realities of our brain and the pathways, it is tough to change pathways.

[01:27:16] Elmo: Mm-hmm.

[01:27:16] Dr. Nicole: However, we also know it's possible. Neuroplasticity is possible.

[01:27:22] Elmo: Yeah.

[01:27:22] Dr. Nicole: Right? And so we know that if you want to become a new person, you wanna move in the...

Like, that is absolutely possible. Mm-hmm. No one's saying it's easy. Some of the magic sauce includes finding good community- Mm-hmm ... that embodies those things you want and will- Mm-hmm ... move towards, and then also it being such a practice where you're devoted to it, right? Where you stick one foot in front of the other, and some days maybe we fall three steps back because, yeah, something happened, but then we stand back up and we keep going and we going.

And, you know, and then there's that day where you look back and you're like, "Oh wow, I've done a lot of the things," you know? And I think- Yeah ... sometimes, especially my pleasure activist folks who are always wanting more, more, more, like, yes, there are so many more systems of oppression to dismantle. Yes. And we can get so lost in the forward next, next, next, next, that it is important to look back and say like, "Wow, I have..."

You know, I, I... It's whether you wanna use the metaphor I've climbed that mountain or I've gone down into that spiral. Both are applicable, you know, whatever- Yeah ... metaphor more resonates with the archetype of the journey, you know? Um, it's important to acknowledge that, see where you're at, and then, yeah, embrace the possibility of the becoming for the rest of our existence.

There's so much power there and magic.

[01:28:38] Elmo: Mm-hmm.

[01:28:39] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:28:40] Elmo: Yeah. And it's an accumula- change, big revolutionary changes are not big revolutionary changes. They're an accumulation of s- very small shifts.

[01:28:51] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, the listeners can't see I'm, like, moving my hands out like ripples, right? You drop the- Yes

stone in the water and you see it go and go and go and go. Yeah. And so I always like to invite all of us to trust in the ripples. And the personal is the political, and the ways you show up for yourself and the people in your community, those have real transformative changes.

[01:29:13] Elmo: Mm-hmm. Yes.

[01:29:15] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:29:16] Elmo: Yeah. Very much so.

Every interaction is a seed of some kind.

[01:29:21] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Well, I'm so grateful that you came onto the show today and shared your voice and your story and your work with me and all the listeners today, Alma. It was such a joy to have you.

[01:29:32] Elmo: Oh, thank you. Yeah. Uh, it was so wonderful to see you and to be here- Ah ... and to be able to share this- Mm-hmm

this space and the, the kind of, like, personal process and everything. Oh. And, like, yeah, just to, like... I hope that people find it- comforting and-

[01:29:49] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[01:29:50] Elmo: that people can resonate with it and it can, uh, you know, disillusion-

[01:29:55] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[01:29:55] Elmo: like some folks.

[01:29:57] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I know that it will. I feel very confident in that. Yeah.

Absolutely. Yeah. And for all those folks that are resonating, uh, you're talking about your retreats, your courses, all of the things that you're doing. Where can people find you and connect with you?

[01:30:12] Elmo: Yeah. So weirdlightcoaching.com is my website. Um, and, uh, I don't really ha- like, I have a, like a, a Weird Light Instagram, but I don't use it.

I got taken over by bots. Oh, no. I don't really know how to, like- Really? Oh, no ... undo any of that stuff. So I'm, the, the social media thing, I don't, it's- Yeah ... I don't even know if, uh, I don't even know. But anyway- Yeah. Yep. Thank you ... um, just go to my website.

[01:30:39] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:30:39] Elmo: Yep. Yep. And send me an email, and I'll let you know what's going on.

[01:30:43] Dr. Nicole: Amazing. Amazing. Well, dear listener, I'll have all of that linked in the show notes below so you can find Elmo and all of their content. And again, thank you for coming on the show today.

[01:30:53] Elmo: Yeah. Thanks,

[01:30:54] Dr. Nicole: Nicole. Yeah. Amazing. Dear listener, thank you so much for tuning in to Modern Anarchy. Thank you for sharing this episode with your friends, with your lovers, with your community.

Truly, it means so much to me, and I am so grateful that you are here. If you are wanting to release jealousy in your non-monogamous dynamics and step into compersion and pleasure-filled connection, you can read my book, The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide, for free on my website. There you will also find so many other free resources, including worksheets on how to clearly communicate and set commitments and boundaries within your non-monogamous dynamics and other ways to practice clear communication about your sexual desires so that you can step into your most pleasure-filled sex and relationships.

So head on over to modernanarchypodcast.com to find all of those free resources, and I look forward to seeing you next week