284. Relationship Design and Creative Non-Monogamy - Laura Ramadei

0:27

On today's episode we have Laura join us for a conversation about creatively designing authentic relationship structures together.

We talk about needing flexibility in relationships when conversion is not easily accessible and community building across varying levels of experience and non monogamy.

0:50

Hello dear listener and welcome back to modern anarchy.

I'm so delighted that you are here, so delighted that you're learning more about your relationships.

A pleasure and how to build more badass, caring, thoughtful communities.

So hello, my name is Doctor Nicole.

1:07

I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, author of the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and the first study on relationship anarchy, and I teach students from around the world how to craft pleasurable sex lives and non monogamous relationships.

1:24

Dear Listener.

We got a special guest today.

This special guest was arguing with her 6th grade DARE officer.

Y'all a rebel spirit, a fiery 1.

1:40

And I resonate with that so, so deeply.

And I bet you too too, listener.

You're the one that challenges the system.

You're the one that's asking the powerful questions.

How else did you get here?

You asked many questions about your life and this world and what it means to be human and what it means to love one another, what it means to love future generations.

2:03

All of that is here in two days episode, right?

How so much of these conversations about liberating our pleasure and feeling our erotic selves.

And yeah, all of that really comes down to building more space for our communities where we can practice consent and care and really witness one another and the sacredness that it means to be a human being or any life form on this earth.

2:27

Right.

And I really just appreciate when guests like Laura can like see that political vision of how much of a different world we'd be stepping into.

That's the whole anarchist saying, right?

Another world as possible.

And so when I can bring guests on here who really see that vision across so many different, you know, experiences of life in this world, it's, it's really special to be holding these conversations with you.

2:49

And I'm, I'm truly honored that you are here listening and, and going deeper on this journey with me.

It's, it's a delight to have you here, dear listener, and thank you, thank you for tuning in.

All right, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore all my free resources at modernanarchypodcast.com.

3:10

I've got an e-book.

I've got my relationship dissertation, I have my compass of consent and different other worksheets that are really powerful to help you unlock your pleasure in your relationship structures.

And they're all free because I know how important it is for this world for us to have free access to educational material and that feels deeply, deeply important.

3:33

So all of that is on my website at modernanarchypodcast.com.

And that's also where we all learn about my upcoming and pleasure liberation groups and all of that good stuff.

And dear listener, wild, did you know?

I know, you know, did you know that video is coming out?

3:51

Video is coming out.

My goodness.

OK, dear listener, we're going to start counting down here November.

It's happening.

Dear listener, I started planning this video stuff.

God, what?

4:07

February of this year.

So it's been almost, my God, eight months.

It's going to come out one more month.

Nine months.

This is where Lydia in the Year 5 episode, she made a joke that I was quote UN quote, like creatively pregnant because I've been working on this for the last nine months for you.

4:25

And my God, we're getting close.

We're getting so close.

I have a new song.

There's a new song in here, right?

There's just so much coming.

OK, dear listener, so much coming.

We'll keep talking about it next week.

Hello.

Hi, all right, dear listener, please know that I am sending you so much love and let's tune into today's episode.

4:57

So the first question that I love to ask each guest on the show is how would you introduce yourself?

To the.

Listeners.

My name is Laura Laura Ramaday.

I go by last name as much as first with my friends.

5:15

I am a certified sexologist, intimacy and relationship coach, and I host a podcast about.

Porn.

Hell yes, hell yes.

Welcome, welcome, welcome.

Thank you.

I am so excited to hear more about your pleasure liberation journey.

5:32

Laura.

Tell me, where does your liberation begin?

Tell us the story.

Where does my liberation begin?

Hard to point to exactly 1 moment because there's so many strung together.

5:49

I will say that I was lucky to have a good sex education.

Please tell me about this.

I did a little program that when I did it, it was called About Your Sexuality.

It was later rebranded to Our Whole Lives.

6:06

This is a course in a Unitarian Universalist Church of all places.

I don't know how much you know about you, you faith, but it's or I should say faith isn't even quite the right word because it's a multi denominational religion.

It's a dogma free religion.

6:24

It's basically like a gathering of spirituality.

You can come with Christianity, you can come with Zen Buddhism.

At the church I went to, services would kind of sometimes just be about music, some about philosophical principles, some about poetry, some about different forms of scripture.

6:46

But yes, it's designed as a very welcoming, inclusive and non restrictive space.

And they happen to host a sex education program that was very progressive.

Like we just to give you a sense, like we were assigned to go out and buy condoms, like buy barriers just to get past the stigma of having to buy it.

7:09

And we were 6th and 7th graders.

I was going to ask how.

Old.

Yeah.

So the idea is, like, for all the people in that class, we were not yet sexually active, but the idea is like, just get used to the safety before you're even having sex.

We also had like a chat with a bisexual woman who talked about how masturbation teaches you what you like.

7:30

You know, like this was very, very progressive.

So I was early on the friend who friends could come to who was like very dedicated to disparaging misinformation.

And I understood that abstinence only education was not helpful.

7:48

So I had a lot of like rational understanding of sex early on and was sex positive in that way.

I will say that my pleasure was a little bit more of a drawn out and complicated journey.

First masturbation with a shower head, friends with older girls.

8:07

Somebody mentioned it and I was like, oh, that's something, you know, didn't feel a lot of shame about.

It was just like just a little sneaky of like didn't want parents to know.

Like, you know, when you're a horny 15 year old and it's 2:00 in the morning and you can't sleep for some reason and you're like, my parents can be like, why is the shower going right now?

8:27

You know, that's as far as like that shame went.

But I will say that orgasming with partners was much more complicated and I approached sex with a very performative expectation, a very like I need to be good at this.

I'm reading Cosmo about how to do it good and that led my early sexual experiences, like a lot of years of being good at sex and achievement being a huge part of what I thought sex and life was about.

8:58

So actually, I feel like my pleasure liberation journey was a larger liberation journey because it dismantled the notion that you need to be valuable, functional, performing, achieving a certain way in order to be worthy.

So learning to find my orgasm with partners, learning to name what I wanted, learning to feel like enough and present in those spaces and not performative in those spaces.

9:22

It's sort of it was the thread that I tugged at that unpacked so much else in my life.

Such.

A great starting point.

Such a great starting point.

Yeah, I was just teaching in my Pleasure Liberation sexuality group today, and part of what this week's lecture was on was enhancing your pleasure.

9:44

And we started talking about porn and we talked a little bit about desirability politics.

OK.

Right.

And the different people that we see in terms of what we watch and how that creates so much of the performance that we expect because sex is often so privatized.

10:03

Maybe not in like our queer, kinky, non monogamous communities where we're like floating around and getting to watch other people do this.

And that's really a norm in our world.

But before that space and many folks who aren't in that space, and the only times that you get to see people having sex is in porn, right?

10:22

And so, yeah, the importance of the different people that you see, the body sizes, the race, the ability, that God, the fucking, the hair that you see on.

I'm like, just the hair you see on bodies, right?

10:37

Yeah.

I think that contributes, I imagine, to so much of what you're speaking to, which is the performance, feeling like you have to perform rather than just being authentic with who you are and the beauty of who you are.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

That's so much of what we unpack on the show on Girls on Porn, that that journey started from a place of curiosity where I was watching porn and enjoying it, but worrying about performers.

11:05

So the entry point for that show was safety.

Was like, is it OK to consume this?

Is it ethical to also what does it say about me that I like to watch rough sex and not know if the women are OK?

You know, sort of unpacking all of that.

11:21

And my Co host Rachel and I, a lot of the aim was just like watching better porn, like finding porn that was believable, that felt like we know the performers are OK.

And then it did open up exactly what you speak to of like, OK, why do all these women look the same in the mainstream space?

11:39

Why are they all tiny and white?

And if it's women playing with each other, why does it seem like they don't really want to or they are like, tentatively licking each other's clits just barely open for camera?

Like, I want to see people who want to fuck each other.

11:56

I also want to see people that look like the people in the world, in my life that I fuck.

Right.

So people that look like me, people that look all different kinds of ways.

And it.

Yeah, when it opened up was a huge exploration of what's out there and the indie porn space.

12:15

You know, as much as it's certainly not as like as bountiful and prolific as the aggregates, which are largely monopolized, there's so much content that's turned out that it does feel like there's only one kind of porn to see because mainstream porn really floods the places you go to see free porn.

12:34

But there's actually so much wonderful independently made porn and, and you know, these days more inclusive studio porn.

You can find that that shows different bodies, different races, different gender identities, different sexualities, different kinds of kinky sacks.

12:52

Like a lot of that is available.

You just have to know where to find it and it's a delightful exploration for sure.

Yeah, I saw you were with Erica Lust recently.

Yeah.

We got to fly out, visit her in Barcelona to interview her for the show.

It was a delight.

Yeah.

She's one I thought of like, they're technically an independent company and not quite the definition of a studio that I mean, when I say porn studio, but also, like, how do you draw those lines?

13:17

They're definitely not owned by a corporate conglomerate the way so many studios are.

And yeah, they make gorgeous, cinematic, high production value, great little stories peppered in very diverse, really interesting, compelling adult content.

13:34

You know, they make films, you know, and they're stunning.

Yeah.

They're really beautiful.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely, Absolutely.

And we know in terms of psychology how essential our cultures and the people around us are in terms of forming quite literally our reality and our desires, right?

13:55

And so.

Yes, yes, yes.

When you're watching the mainstream that's showing the majority culture and the problematic ways of the majority culture and all of that, right?

That does impact your psyche in really deep ways, even on an unconscious level that needs to be really examined.

14:12

And so it's something that I'm always talking about the importance of getting, you know, a little bit outside of your comfort zone, often with these things to explore different views, perspectives, bodies, and, and how much that can really unlock your creativity in terms of arrows rather than seeing things through such a, a defined lens.

14:33

And yeah, some of the bigger players in the porn area that are not ethical that I won't even take the time to name.

We were looking at their top categories today for the Yeah, when I was teaching.

Can you you, you probably can guess this actually.

14:50

What do you think the top category was?

Like for this last year?

Yeah, for this last year.

Oh, I didn't, I didn't look closely yet There are a few that tend to come back.

15:06

Like there are a lot of racially charged categories that are always in like the top five.

They're like hentai in different forms.

Also tends to do very well.

What was the top category this past year?

15:23

Freud would be having such a good time because it's stepmom.

Yeah, the step stuff is always pretty high.

Yeah pretty high-ranking.

I don't know if you heard, but apparently the UK is making moves to ban step porn, which is no way hilarious.

15:40

Unpacked Yes, there have been like new measures in the UK around porn restrictions.

Like now you have to enter an ID, like you have to put your ID and to verify your ID in order to watch porn.

It's sort of a, we see a lot of this and I might not be the best expert to speak to the full scope of it, but it's very complicated, like the relationship between this content and attempts at regulation.

16:06

And when those attempts at regulation are actually effective or well-intentioned, that sometimes it's like, oh, this is age verification to protect the children, but it's also a means of regulating sex work itself, but in a way that might be oppressive or unhelpful.

16:22

And do these things actually work?

But yeah, so the UK recently is they made the age verification, the Identifica identity verification in there, which is a huge like data and privacy concern.

Right to.

Begin with, but then they're now they've been doing more to try to sort of reach into kink in a way.

16:44

Like there's been discussion of like banning choking porn.

Actually, I should, I don't know if I'm if that is banned yet.

I know that there was discussion, but it's possible that that was hand in hand with the step stuff.

But like just restrictions around the nature of the content, which is really fascinating to try to control, you know, like, oh, we're just gonna ban choking all together rather than provide anything that might resemble education about like why something might or might or might not be consenting and, and therefore different or what the difference is between fantasy and reality.

17:16

And how do we navigate porn spaces like media literacy for kids, you know, like that there's such a always such a push to restrict and control in that space and a lack of education, which is holistically so much more effective.

17:33

So.

Yes.

Can we under score that?

We under score that, right?

I also do psychedelic assisted psychotherapy.

And again and again and again and again.

The research shows that drug education helps to prevent overdoses.

17:49

Yep.

So clear, right?

And so it's just.

These.

Areas where there's so much cultural taboo, but yet we know definitively that the research shows that education is so helpful, not just even from the harm reduction standpoint, which is often where we have to kind of start to get respect within the world and the community, but also from the pleasure enhancement side of just building more in that space.

18:13

I, I started in clinical psychology wanting to work with trauma survivors and realized the field kind of stops after that, you know, like there's not much on how to step even into more pleasure.

And that's, that's the full equation that we're looking for here.

And as I was making the content for my groups that where I'm teaching, I had gone to a friend's house in Indiana and I was banned from all porn when I was in the I was like, oh, I was trying to look at the status like, Oh, it's wild how just when you crossover a state line here from Illinois to Indiana, it's.

18:45

Yeah, they're, yeah, a few states in the US where it's that same identity verification law.

And I mean, it just means that VPN sales spike.

Exactly, Exactly.

Yeah, Yeah, I love what you said about the about drug use.

19:02

That's been a theme in my my social content recently in another context, but I just a fun little anecdote that when I was in 6th grade, I argued with my DARE officer because he tried to tell us that weed was just as addictive and harmful as like quote UN quote black tar heroine.

19:24

And I was like, listen, if you tell us that and then we smoke a little weed at a party because that's pretty accessible to us and we're not instantly addicted, we're going to think you lied about everything.

So if you're giving us misinformation, you're not helping us.

This is meant to be like education.

19:41

I don't remember what he said.

I think I just shut him down.

Good for you, poor guy.

But just to give you a picture of the kind of 6th grader I was.

I love about 6th grader.

So yeah, fiery.

Yeah.

Yeah, Lester.

Still got the good grade, still pushing the the glasses up my nose.

19:57

But, you know, always very justice oriented and I guess entitled and like, I'm a good student and I'm going to push back on this because I know it's not.

True.

Well, that yeah, that was me all through grad school, straight A students, because I'm like the second we start talking about non monogamy kink and psychedelics, I got to have a little bit of armor here to be like what?

20:15

I got a 4.0 Like what?

What else can you say to me?

I'm going to push back at you.

You have to drop your sex nerd credentials.

Absolutely.

Yes, very welcome.

Love a sex?

Yeah, exactly.

Unless we forget mushrooms are on this like a legal quote.

20:31

Dangerous world is waking up.

Controlled substances lists.

Yeah, yeah, we're waking up.

We're waking up.

Sign so your pleasure liberation journey, you're getting out of performance, you're expanding the ways that you can connect with people, the creativity of what's possible.

20:49

When does polyamory and the expansiveness of connection really come into the picture for you?

Yeah, that was also an interesting series of events that, like, slowly unlocked things in my brain.

I'd say I had my first open relationship more than 15/16/16 or 17 years ago.

21:11

Beautiful was very sort of casual idea.

Like my partner was like we were pretty new to dating each other and instead of having the exclusivity conversation we had the like.

He was like, I think I want to stay open to sleeping with other people and I think you should too.

21:28

Like I want to have lovers and you can have lovers.

And I really cringed at the word lovers because we, you know, I was picturing Will Ferrell and Rachel Dratch in a hot tub, but was like, actually, you know, I can try this and this makes some sense and I get it.

And I was like, listen, if it doesn't work for me, I can just end it.

21:46

It's not the right thing.

You know, like I kind of said, I was like, you know, if it's tough, maybe that's it.

But like, why not give it a shot?

And he and I dated for a couple years.

We weren't like, we weren't reading the books, we weren't doing the podcasts.

We weren't like, doing it with so much intentionality.

22:05

It really was just like, he put an ID on the table and we went for it.

And like, we kind of loosely said like, yeah, we'll check in periodically and just kind of ask how things are going.

So it wasn't a, like, I'll disclose immediately if I've slept with someone else.

It was implicitly and in practice kind of a like here and there, maybe someone else, not so much like actively dating or building relationship with other people.

22:28

Or at least that's how we both approached it.

We didn't necessarily define that, but that is how we kind of both went about it.

And I think I was surprised when like the first time I actually prompted the first conversation, like the first check in after we'd said this because I saw a long dark hair on his computer keyboard that like wasn't mine.

22:50

And I was like, maybe we should check in, You know, like I haven't asked.

And I don't even know if that was a hair of a part.

Like to this day I'm like, yeah, what was it just prompted that I was like, yeah, I talked to this about this, I guess.

I should have asked what's?

Funny is I don't remember being particularly activated by the hair, but just being like, oh, there might have been someone here.

23:09

Let me ask.

And we talked about it.

And he had had, I think just a one night hook up with someone.

And it was a like, not much more than that.

And I had hooked up with someone I had a history with, like I had hooked up with someone I dated in high school.

And it similarly, it was just a hookup.

23:27

But he had a pretty strong, like visceral jealousy reaction.

And that was surprising to me 'cause I was like, wait a minute, you, you wanted this Like what?

What's happening?

And it didn't end anything.

And it, it wasn't disruptive.

It just was surprising.

23:43

I think his wording was literally like, I feel violent and a little sick and like, named it like wasn't raging, which is like, that's the feeling I have right now.

And I was like, whoa, whoa, you know, And then we just kept going about it.

23:59

And, you know, it wasn't like, I want you to change anything.

He just was like, yeah, this is my reaction to it.

And I noticed jealousy came up for me more around emotional things in that relationship because I felt like I had limited emotional access to this person.

24:15

Like we dated for a long time and we weren't romantic or expressive of love.

Like we weren't using I love you stuff.

I was, I think, protecting myself from that, like, oh, we're doing this open thing, so maybe it's not that.

Like I think I was operating with the assumption that it would be guarded because of that.

24:33

And we've dated for a long time and did behave much like we were in a primary relationship because we were essentially without naming it, we're having that language.

And, and then eventually we really just wanted different things.

Like he actually wanted to close up.

24:50

And I was like, actually, I don't know if I, I want just this relationship.

And I tried for a while and then was like, I don't think this is it.

So it kind of like opened something for me.

And then I was in a digital series called Unicorn Land.

I just auditioned for it and got it.

25:05

And it was about a woman post a young woman post divorce, exploring her sexuality in a new way, dating couples, and each episode was a different couple.

Wow.

And it was written from a woman with experience in the non monogamy and play space.

And all of the some of the cast, much of the crew, we're all in the play space and we're all in some form of a kind of non monogamy space.

25:29

So I learned a huge amount just through like the plot of the show.

Each episode was a couple.

So each episode was almost a like a pitfall or a lesson or a kind of conflict that might come up or a way that my character was growing in relationship with these couples.

So that became a life imitating art situation where I was like, wait, this makes so much sense.

25:50

And I actually started sleeping with a dating couples because I was like, oh, this is great.

This can be like a way to be sexually gratified without necessarily getting emotionally involved.

Like that was just the way I approached it.

And then I saw the appeal in it.

26:06

And I had this sort of groundwork from the show of like, here, here are the conversations to have, Here are the things to avoid.

Here are the red flags to look out for.

So I honestly had like very few negative experiences with couples.

I just kind of went about Unicorn ING and really enjoyed it.

26:22

And through that I also started to really realize my queerness.

And then I was like, I'm sleeping with women.

Like we can say I'm queer, you know, like I don't need to have, you know, I, if I think my logic early on that was limiting was like, I've slept with this many men, this big tall stack of men.

26:42

I've really only fooled around with or slept with this many women.

So am I therefore not bisexual?

And it was the question of, like, being queer enough or the notion of, like, you are queer enough, you know, And that identity of sexuality isn't determined by experience or action.

27:02

That's determined by impulse, right?

And that was such a like, I was like, oh, of course, like the gay man in Kansas who doesn't have community, who's desperate to meet men but doesn't know where to find them, isn't less gay than the gay man in West Hollywood who has plenty of people to date and sleep with.

27:19

So just 'cause I haven't embraced this fully doesn't mean I'm less queer.

And I, you know, that meant unpacking a history of like, why did I lean on men and, and goes back to that sort of performative thing again, or showing up in the ways that you think you're supposed to.

27:37

Yeah.

So those two, those elements were like big things that unlocked my non monogamy.

And I think being queer, like just being in those spaces like introduced me to deeper theory and inquiry into non monogamy in general.

27:53

And that's when I started really like reading the books and doing the podcasts and going out and getting certification as a sexologist.

Like that was close on those heels.

So a lot of this is like happening at the same time where I'm really opening up my sex and love life in a huge way over the course of many years.

28:13

And you look back at it and I was like, oh, I was doing it all along.

Like I was never a serial monogamist.

I was never very like, oh, I need to have a partner to be valid and I'm aiming for marriage or kids.

Like a lot of the conventions just never really fit with me.

28:29

And I didn't feel like there was anything wrong.

I just was like, I'll go for the relationship when it's the right person, when I'm ready.

And then I found non monogamy and was like oh this actually just makes so much sense with everything I've been doing.

So now I have language for it and can look at the history of it and can start to explore and experience it the way I want to.

28:51

JC So good, so good.

There's so much we can unpack in that.

I'd be curious how much your first original sex education really created that space too.

You know, in terms of normalizing pleasure, normalizing sexuality in 6th grade and what sort of foundation that laid to create even more space for all of these things.

29:13

I think it just was the theme of dismantling shame totally.

I just didn't come into anything with a high level of shame.

I know, I know.

And like, I some crept in.

There was still societal fame.

There was still this pressure to like, well, if I want to be this version of a person, if I want to be this kind of woman, does that go hand in hand with this other stuff?

29:35

And that was what I had to unpack.

But it was I never had a like sex is bad.

Any kind of sexuality is bad.

Like, ironically, when I was discovering my queerness, I recognized something that I had seen a friend struggle with years prior.

29:55

I went to a public art school, like a magnet art school.

This is also formative and really important I'm.

Going to art school.

Middle and high school spent with a bunch of delightful querdos, wonderful and expansive.

30:11

And there were so many people that were out at that school.

And I had a friend who came to the school later.

He came as a junior, so he's only there for two years at the end of high school.

And he had come from a very different environment.

He had come from a school where, like, there aren't gay people, period.

30:29

Like that just doesn't exist in the world or there's something wrong with you and where you certainly wouldn't tell anyone if you were out.

And he knew actually wouldn't tell him if you were out, certainly wouldn't tell anyone you were gay.

You would just stay closeted.

And so my friend came from that environment to the art school and knew he was gay, but actually still didn't come out at the art school because he felt like everybody here knew since they were 10 and they've been out.

30:58

Like, I can't suddenly be gay.

And that far behind, like there was this like, Oh no, but now I'm not gay enough, right?

Like that kind of narrative.

So I similarly, as a woman in my 30s, finally naming that I was bisexual was like stop with this, I'm too late.

31:16

Or why didn't I realize it sooner?

Like just just say it and it's OK, you know?

Absolutely, absolutely.

Yeah, Yeah.

And like you named, it's not the action, it's the desire itself, right, that is more important there, right.

31:33

And so many people, especially in the non monogamy space, often have queerness and bisexuality as a big driver of wanting to explore more truly of like, wow, I'm unlocking this.

I never got to explore in my monogamous whatever relationship.

31:51

And it's such a big push for people to be able to explore non monogamy and we.

Also see a lot.

Of situations where, you know, in particularly hetero couples, maybe a male is pushing for the openness and then kind of struggles with the patriarchal notions of control.

32:11

And how deep that's gone into our unconscious around that woman is mine, which is fucked up on so many levels.

And the reality is that's present in our society and culture.

And then again and again, like a similar trope of women like trying it and then falling in love with it and being like I will never go back.

32:27

To anything like.

What what like.

So.

Like your story speaks to that in so many different ways.

And when I think about my story, I came from purity culture, so like.

We'll.

Hold different world and so I know many of the listeners who reach out to me have resonated with my journey.

32:48

So I think we hold like in this community, a lot of listeners who are like your friend who, you know, still might be even wondering, you know, and, and it's never too late as you're naming.

And I also think it's really, really, really important that you talked about having a great time Unicorn.

33:04

I know that our community is often like, Oh, don't Unicorn people and I that intention is really important of treating people as full human beings and not just a sexual object to spice up your life and your relationship.

And that is a great thing.

And also you could have a great time.

33:21

You know, some people really want it, you know, but it's the distinction is just are we all on the same page about everybody's wants here?

Are we all aiming for the same thing or are we ever misrepresenting what we're doing?

And if we're the couple that's just Unicorn hunting and saying that more is possible and more is not possible or where we're saying, hey, we're going to control for your feelings.

33:43

Like here's what's on the table.

Do you want to participate in that or not?

Right.

And yeah, they can be tricky for people to do that, or they think they're OK with certain things they're not.

And those are precisely the red flags that I learned to look out for before I even started.

33:59

So I was lucky in that when it felt like 01 partner's being dragged into this, or one partner has a extreme jealousy and is going along with this but really isn't ready for this, I know I'm taking a risk getting involved.

So yeah, just just about like, really thorough consent, right?

34:18

Like really clear boundaries and understanding of what are we signing up for and what's possible.

Right, absolutely, absolutely.

And it's just such a juxtaposition from the world of people.

And I know this isn't my listeners, but the world of people who are like, oh, I don't want to talk about sex.

34:37

It ruins the mood, right, to like such a level of conversation where it's like, what are you looking for?

What are what are your dynamics in your relationship?

All this level of conversation that we ideally have in our communities because that way everyone can enjoy and step into more pleasure when it's really clear, the expectations are clear, that's where we can have the safety to expand and to play and to enjoy this.

35:00

But coming from the dominant majority culture, so much of that is like, you don't talk about sex, you don't share any of this.

And so when I'm teaching, I'm often talking about the ways that so much of this is a language formation for people, particularly people who come from purity culture or really restrictive spaces.

35:19

It's like asking them to speak a language they've never spoken.

And.

Yeah, it's a good way of putting it.

I have a lot of clients too, and people in community who come from purity culture.

And the work itself is deconstruction.

And sometimes the space of, like, working in session is just being able to talk about things that feel so foreign and so charged and so stigmatized and forbidden.

35:42

That like just being able to say here's something that I want or naming that you'd want something and then saying that to your partner.

Or being able to use words that feel incredibly scary and exciting, too.

That's a huge part of the work.

35:57

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

And to go back to something else you said, the talking about it beforehand is like the foreplay to me, like as a Unicorn that like I, and it's funny because I want to be very careful here, that it did kind of lay the groundwork for me to become a practitioner because I enjoyed so much creating safe space with those couples and asking questions like, what do you love about each other and what made you want to do this?

36:24

And what kinds of experiences have you had in this space that have been really fun?

Or what experiences have you had that have been challenging or not so fun?

Like what have where, when have you hit Rd. bumps?

So that I'm aware of what's been difficult for you, right?

And of course, once you create safety, once you create a sensation of like, OK, this is a safe space, my feelings are accounted for.

36:45

Then when you pivot the conversation into, OK, like what do you like?

What do you enjoy?

Then it can like you can kind of get hotter, but we've created this container of safety, right?

So everybody can kind of like relax into that.

And then we can melt into the dialogue of like, what would actually be hot to start to explore.

37:03

And then we're there and it's happening, right?

But that first piece of creating the safe container and like, I just felt such genuine love and care for these couples, even when it wasn't a loving, intimate, emotionally intimate situation.

It was just, I'm creating safety.

I just felt such natural care for like, I want to be this incredible thing for your relationship.

37:24

And this conversation is part of it, even if we don't have sex.

And that's the part where I was like a practitioner in the room, you know, where I was like therapizing the couple before I slept with them, you know, So obviously because I don't sleep with my clients, but it did kind of ping this thing for me that I was like, oh, I really love that.

37:42

I love talking to people about their relationships and their challenges and helping them feel more connected to each other.

Like, that's really gratifying to me.

And that's completely separate from the sexual experience altogether.

So like, what is that telling me, you know?

Absolutely.

37:57

Absolutely.

And yeah, so much of that safety, as you're saying, is what creates the space for our bodies, our nervous systems to relax.

And that is where the.

Best.

Pleasure comes from right when we're fully able to take that deep breath and be with our bodies and feel that.

38:16

And yeah, I was thinking about, as you were speaking, some of the, you know, the vetting that is really coming through in those moments of assessing where somebody's at because you use the word risk.

And I think that's very appropriate.

I've worked with clients in the past who have felt guilt and around guilt around like, is it bad that I want to be with people who have more experience in this?

38:40

Is that problematic?

Am I thinking I'm better than these other people?

And I think it's really wise when you are, for me, my favorite activity hobby outside of this world is rock climbing.

If I'm going to go rock climbing up up a Cliff with somebody, yeah, I want to make sure you have the experience.

39:01

Would I be willing to work with you to build the skills that we could do that one day together?

Totally, if that's what I want and how I want to spend my time and energy.

And also, I am not going to get up a Cliff with somebody who's never touched a rope or tied a knot or done any of the anchors like.

And that's not a bad thing.

39:18

But I do notice some people really feel like guilt for feeling like they're like morally superior or more experienced.

And I think there's nuance here in assessing just the risk of new people to this world and this paradigm and the language and communication skills.

39:34

Yeah.

It's basically like there's always a big question and non monogamy of what are your signing up for and does that align with what you want?

And sometimes you don't get to know fully what you're signing up for.

Of course, there's there can often be surprises or people might say it's one thing, it's not the other, which we are already covered.

39:51

But yes, that like often what you're doing is you're looking at someone with existing relationships and you're saying, do the things I want fit into the configurations that are already at play because I'm not coming in to take time or energy away from other situations.

So is this actually fitting with what I want?

40:09

Or am I going to be constantly dissatisfied with the not knowing what's possible or dissatisfied with the limitations on time and energy, for example?

And then yes, exactly what you said of like you may or may not need to put a hard and fast rule in place that says I only date experienced Poly people versus inexperienced Poly people.

40:29

But if you are dating someone who's inexperienced, you need to sign up for some level of patience, education, energy invested in their process.

And I don't think it's fair to come in and say, like, figure it out, deal with it.

40:44

It's like this is part of the relational work.

So you were signing up for that, right?

And you might get into the relationship and learn like they are not doing the work on their end.

And this is not worth, this is more energy than I think I was capable of giving.

Like that's where the friction can emerge.

41:01

But if you like someone enough and it's worthwhile and you trust that they're invested in mutual growth with you and they're demonstrating that, then like, yeah, by all means.

But it's it's being calibrated and clear in those expectations and communicating them too.

41:19

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

And a big thing I had to learn for myself is the the impact that that can cause on you.

I, I think I in my polyamorous journey really felt like, you know, I have a couple of different connections.

41:34

If one is maybe struggling more than the other, that's OK.

I feel really balanced out with these other people, which is true to some degree, but the level of proximity that you bring someone into frequency of how often you see them, how deeply we're getting enmeshed, how far off we're envisioning, all that sort of stuff.

41:52

It can really throw off your frequency.

And I, I say that word frequency intentionally because I had read The Relational Revolution in Psychology, This Changes everything.

And it was a book and they had talked about tuning forks and how you can have 8 tuning forks in harmony and then bring in a 9th and it will shift the frequency of all of them.

42:16

And they were using that as a metaphor to think about our relational psychology and how much that can shift.

And again, as an anarchist, I'm always thinking about how we can build more community spaces and calling more people into this.

And so the answer is not to say that 9th tuning fork is like, get the fuck out of here, but like just thinking where does that tuning fork belong in your world?

42:35

Because that was one of my, I think, biggest pain points of thinking like I'm resilient, I got this, I'm fine and not knowing.

Yeah.

How much someone's discomfort and shame that was coming up around my journey and pleasure would really make it heavy for me to be my authentic self.

42:52

Yeah.

Lessons learned down the pathway, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely.

And then when you get really hurt, we see a pendulum swing, right?

When you're really hurt, then you say, absolutely not, I'll never do a new person again.

43:09

I'll never, I'll never do this right.

And often after we have a painful experience, we'll pendulum swing all the way to the other side and then watching how then we can try to apply that to our partners in terms of metamors of like, yes, not even in your own world, but other people like, okay, partner, I don't like you dating someone new and you try to control and restrict them because of your own pain.

43:30

And then I, I just think that the more you expand your network of love, the more you have to really surrender.

Of course, there's commitment, there's boundaries, there's clarity that we make in these connections.

But at some point it becomes a big dose of ego death surrender at some point in this.

43:47

Journey Yeah, well, it's, it's doing, it's the difference between self work and the work you ask of your partner and your and or your metas, right.

And exactly what you named that.

Sometimes we say, well, I'm never doing that again.

We're reaching for control.

And it's like, well, hold on, You had one bad experience with this person who's inexperienced.

44:09

You may meet someone new who's also inexperienced, who has different emotional intelligence, different commitment, different curiosity around what this world and lifestyle could be for them.

And it could be wonderful and expansive and all those things.

44:27

So when we're like, I gotta cut off the thing, I'm gonna cut off the thing.

We're avoiding it, right?

So we're also like in that process, we're avoiding our own growth.

And that doesn't mean I'm gonna welcome any situation that I shouldn't learn from my experiences.

But holding that balance, right?

44:42

Of like, where am I reaching for control and avoiding growth?

And how much growth is too much or like unhelpful or unproductive, right?

I love the analogy of like stretching our muscles when it comes to non monogamy.

44:58

That's always that question of like how much discomfort is too much?

How much are we tolerating?

That's helping us grow and helping us build a sensation of safety through the discomfort.

As opposed to I'm just subjected to a constant state of high alert and pain and fear or overwhelm, right?

45:15

It's like holding that, finding that little, that edge, that balance, but also that like how much push is too much push?

How much am I stretching this muscle and it's going to snap versus I'm I'm stretching myself into a good place and I'm growing through it, not just snapping back or injuring myself.

45:34

Exactly, exactly.

It's one of the similar metaphors I always use.

I think that's a really important one.

And for my journey I started with relationship anarchy, which was maybe a.

You went there to 60, baby.

45:51

Wow, I tore that muscle real fast and limped for a little bit after that of.

Like, yeah, hey, wow.

And that's when I was first stepping into it.

I was also Co writing my dissertation on relationship anarchy and studying psychedelic assisted psychotherapy all at the same time.

46:08

Which?

Was what a journey?

And so I often then use the metaphor that we do with my psychedelic clients of starting with a handshake dose, a space where you can feel safe, feel comfortable.

I'm not going to say that there isn't wisdom in your, your first psilocybin trip being a 5g experience.

46:27

I'm not going to you.

You will learn a lot, but it will be most likely challenging and scary and real and can be traumatizing depending on the context, right.

So sometimes I think about that with how I started straight with relationship anarchy and did not, you know, like one of my partners had done the more like monogamy, monogamish, bringing in, you know, unicorns, couples, you know, doing that sort of and then hierarchical Poly and then getting to the space of relationship anarchy.

46:55

And I think it gave him so much more of like a nervous system build into the system rather than just.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, it's interesting even the way we use the term relationship anarchy because the like principles of it at its core are relationship design, right?

47:13

And that does mean dismantling hierarchies.

That's a huge part of the manifesto, the like original, you know, squatter manifesto out of the Netherlands.

But this is getting at something I think we plan to talk about today, which is like we sometimes depart from traditional, conventional scripts that speak to monogamy, that speak to conventional marriage, that speak to specific kinds of relationship escalators.

47:38

We abandoned those and then we pick up a different script and almost the way you said, like I'm not doing that anymore pendulum swing.

I'm gonna go do this other thing.

Instead.

We try to reach for like the most radical form.

We're like, if I'm not right, I'm going left and I'm going as far left as possible.

47:53

So we try to reach for what we perceive as the most radical form of non monogamy.

And doing that kind of like whiplash can be incredibly challenging, right?

And then it creates this paradigm where we're saying I have to do this in this way.

48:12

Like I have many clients who struggle with this or they're like, I want to do it this way.

We're non hierarchical.

We're this like the principals are dictating and their nervous systems are grappling with it and really struggling because they're like, what is happening?

And am I safe?

48:27

And I have no scaffolding to hold on to that makes me feel accounted for.

That makes like that I don't know how to build that safety.

And that progressive shift can be helpful for a lot of folks that like, I'm slowly going to pace into this, I'm going to open up progressively, we're going to build safety as we go so that I understand and can slowly deconstruct rather than reaching for an idea because I think it's the most valid idea or the most valid version of non monogamy.

48:59

And like a lot of people make that journey and don't necessarily land at something that looks as radical as or as leftist as we might feel pressured to be.

They're like, yeah, I still have kind of a primary structure in my relationship.

But we know that we don't veto and we work to dismantle some of the power dynamics.

49:18

And we talk about those and we're careful not to exert control or rob someone of their autonomy.

Like we're doing all that nuanced work.

We borrowed Connect conventions from a little bit of like tradition, we've borrowed some conventions from non monogamous principles that we really value.

49:36

And we've really honored relationship design 'cause that's actually what non monogamy is about.

It's about picking and choosing what feels right to you, as opposed to tossing at 1 script and picking up another one.

Right, which is why it's such a bitch.

49:52

When you look at the research and it's like, well, monogamy versus non monogamy, and here's the data of what we see and it's like, yeah, fuck me.

Like we know under the non monogamy umbrella.

Is a whole swath.

And people and how they do this.

And then when we look at the data that some research studies do get into those different discrepancies between, for example, often open relationships, polyamory and swinging.

50:16

When I wrote my dissertation on relationship anarchy, there was no research on relationship anarchy.

There was one study from someone who wrote a political science paper, but other than that I was the first one to write a paper on any of this stuff so we don't even have yet.

50:31

Like data on relationship kills me.

So I hope.

Dear listener, when you're looking at the research that puts it into a bifurcation of monogamy and non monogamy, that research is very, very limited and should be highly critiqued because there's just so much nuance and like you're saying, relationship design under each type.

50:51

And yeah, people often feel really locked in this.

And I think it reminds me so much of the the anxiety, the creative anxiety of an artist.

You know, if we have relationships in the mononormative frame as a paint by numbers and the relationship escalator is a clear path of where to go when you tell people we're going to create a whole new world where you get to design.

51:18

It's like handing someone a a blank canvas and say, here you go, use the paint.

What do you want to create?

And most people kind of shudder at that moment.

Maybe my fellow artists in this, you know, community are like, oh, I'm so ready.

Let me let me add that paint canvas, you know, but many of us go, well, what?

51:34

And so I think that's.

So much of the muscle.

Here of the creativity to envision other worlds when you feel like your relationship is no longer in alignment, how can you identify what aspects of the relationship need to be shifted What new visions do we need to have about our connection and where we're going rather than saying Oh well, this relationship is broken, we need to blow it up and annihilate it and I'll never talk to you again.

51:59

Those are the kind of muscles which means conflict resolution skills.

That's I feel like again and again, a lot of my content is getting to that of like, OK, that's that, that edge that we all need right?

Of like how do we deal with conflict through this?

Because that's.

A lot of it, but.

52:17

Yeah, it's, it's really being able to see relationships in that new way.

And when I was writing my dissertation, so much of it was like very theoretical, right?

You're reading books, you're reading everything out there possibly on relationship anarchy.

And the bitch of all of it is that you can read every book on swimming in the entire world.

52:38

And until you.

Get in the water.

And you feel like.

What that feels like in your.

Body to do those things you read about, yeah.

And to feel the like.

Overwhelm of am I drowning right now?

Right, Yeah.

I love the swimming analogy.

I use it all the time that like, if you're learning to swim, you're not going to jump into the deep end.

52:56

You're going to start with water wings and a kiddie pool, and then you're gonna go to the shallow end.

So yeah, exactly.

We're very much on a wavelength like, like, it's not like we've talked.

Before and then somehow have the same metaphors and the collective consciousness, right?

There's just some great metaphors.

Out there, you know, like there's some that like, really you're like, oh, this so directly applies.

53:14

Like, it's such a helpful analogy in a lot of ways, you know?

Yeah.

And so I'm curious for you then.

If you're going.

From the space of really enjoying Unicorn in and.

Stepping into where you're at now, what is your relational orientation look like?

53:32

What are the things that are bringing you pleasure and and the visions that you have in terms of pleasure?

Yeah, I would.

Say that I kind of resist labels a little bit like because there's such a strong connotation around a lot of them.

53:49

Like I believe in and ascribe to and practice relationship anarchy, but I don't necessarily lead with or call myself a relationship anarchist because somehow I don't feel like.

But this is all the same way that like, I really struggled with my BI and my Pam because I'm both.

54:07

And in that case, I actually made the choice to say bisexual because I feel like the term didn't get its due when it emerged because bisexual women were largely marginalized even within the gay community as not being gay enough.

So I was.

Like I'm gonna be bi.

54:22

Because it's rock'n'roll and like, I'm gonna give that.

But like, I'm also, I'm fully pansexual, right?

And I think I just like to say I'm non monogamous because it's the overarching thing and it's the term.

That it's like.

Because I can define it with as much nuance as I want and not feel like, OK, you have an idea and I now need to like disparage that idea or like rewrite it necessarily.

54:48

But yes, I have I have sexual emotional fluidity in all of my relationships and I have an anchor partner and a dynamic where we play with and date other people and date together as well, which is delightful and delicious and I think only enhances our relationship.

55:11

And who knows?

You know, these things always evolve and grow over the course of many years as much time.

So that's what it looks like right now.

But I like, I like it like the reason I chose non monogamy is a because of the challenge, because it's there's a compelling stretch there.

55:31

And it does demand such a high level of conflict resolution, communication skills, emotional relational skills, all of that.

But also because it's evolving because it gives me that flexibility to say, like, this is where I am right now and this is what my desires are right now.

55:49

And I'm going to reach for fulfillment in this space.

And I know that this relationship is going to evolve and all those other relationships are going to evolve and I'm going to evolve as well all of my partners.

So I want a system in place that accounts for that flexibility rather than resists it.

Yeah, Yep.

56:05

And that was one of the main.

Findings of my dissertation was the importance of change specifically for relationship.

Anarchy of.

How you know how forward the movement is in terms of mutuality.

And so we know that consent is ever evolving, something that we continually check in about right into especially around sexuality.

56:25

And what about our relationship structures, right, to continue to be in relationship where we are asking, is this still working for us?

What do we want to take on the table?

What do we want to take off?

And allowing that inevitable, because change is the only inevitable we can promise ourselves in a lifetime, right?

56:44

And so how can we create?

Space for that in our.

Relationships to continue evolving and trusting that we will have the communication skills with the people and the rejection skills to be able to go through that as we evolve into different forms of what I like to say is reorienting or some of my mentors have said of reimagining how to have connection with people.

57:08

Yeah.

Reimagining.

I like that.

Yeah, I like that a lot.

Yeah.

And I'm curious for.

You 2 in the space of conversion, what does your journey looked like with that word and and that feeling in your connections?

Yeah, conversion, I feel.

57:25

Like it's another really charged word in the space, right?

Like we're all reaching for it or like demanding it, particularly of ourselves, sometimes of each other, which can also be problematic.

And I think I had a really natural attitudinal compersion.

57:44

I love the work of my friend, Doctor Marie Thuen, who I did a, she's been very chat with, he's been on the show that sometimes we forget that compersion isn't just the emotional experience, that it's also the attitudinal.

It's the rational experience of wanting for your partner's joy, of deriving joy from your partner's joy in terms of your thought process as much as you're feeling.

58:08

That always came really naturally.

And I think there's some element of like the visceral emotional experience of compression that came naturally to me as well.

But I certainly have some competitive, some comparisons, some like jealous impulses.

58:24

And I genuinely consider all that a blessing because it has information in it.

You know, we know that jealousy is a teacher.

So what's the insecurity that this is pinging?

What's the relationship lack in the existing relationship that might be at play here?

58:40

But also it's frankly just so expansive in terms of my like my empathy for other people on their their experience.

Like I feel like I am better at the work I do because I truly understand what it feels like when my clients are spiraling, right?

58:56

Like when they're struggling relationship.

I'm like, I have been there, you know, and being thoughtful about how I approach the self disclosure.

But of course, like, hey, like, I've been at this a while and I still feel those pangs, but they don't like that.

59:12

Here's my relationship with them.

Here's how I work with them.

Here's how they have evolved over time.

So relieve yourself of the goal of being somehow completely free.

Like, I think that jealousy and compulsion are always in dialogue with each other.

Yeah, of course.

And that even the most compulsive person has some level of jealousy there.

59:31

And it's not like we're reaching for some kind of purity, right, Right, right, right.

So.

Yeah, that's.

That's kind of where I'm at with it and my approach I also like.

I think there's something.

Almost spiritual or.

Transcendent about what jealousy and conversion have to offer and I talked about this a little bit with Maria as well that I.

59:54

Stumbled into loving.

Kindness meditation at a time when I had a sort of situation with a meta.

Where I I wasn't struggling with her as much as she was struggling with me, but I felt.

A mix of compassion and then.

1:00:10

An impulse to be like, to reject her feelings, right?

Like an impulse to be like, we'll get over it kind of thing.

And I was doing love and kindness meditation just in regular practice and then started to kind of bring her into the fold.

And I don't mean that her literally into the room, but her like the idea of her and sending loving kindness towards her.

1:00:31

And I was like, wow, if we all had the capacity to do this, what a different world.

It would be the person that we're told to be in competition with, the person we're told to disparage, to be in conflict with, to have violent feelings towards potentially.

1:00:48

What if we built practices to open our hearts to them?

And that was the guiding principle of the world.

Like, Oh my God.

So when I think about that, I think about the huge potential that like that, frankly, non monogamy has for the broader world, you know?

1:01:07

So big stuff.

Big stuff.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, It's like, how much space do I need to hold of silence to let that vision settle in for folks, you know, like.

Yep, Yep, I see.

1:01:22

That similar space and the power, which is also very ancient in terms of when we look at the history, and yes, it goes back to Mudita, it goes back.

To like an ancient Buddhist principle of like compassion and joy for someone else's joy yeah and.

1:01:41

And even before that, our.

Collectiveness, like our collectiveness as social beings that could not survive, quite literally the the weather and the different dispersion of resources and supplies in the earth.

We did not survive as one little human, you know, or dyadic little humans running around on this earth.

1:02:00

We had to live in communities and social structures and webs until we had the, you know, the plow and the ability to accumulate resources and really settle down into property rather than being more nomadic.

I mean, so much of this goes back And of course, you know, when you look at evolutionary psychology, you can't always apply it into the here and the now because now we have.

1:02:23

Esther Perrell had her first session with a client with an AI.

Did you see that recently?

OK.

Oh, like.

Esperol.

Session with a client with an AI partner.

Partner.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That came out this.

Week I was like yeah, so it's like the the evolutionary psychology we cannot always apply to the here and the now.

1:02:40

You know, in terms of yeah, she want to hold that for listeners.

Like we are always.

Evolving, you know, fascinating things to see.

But yeah, the, the wisdom of this collectiveness and the desires that we have, I mean, yeah, if we get into a deeper understanding that our liberation is braided together, that's like one of the values of I, when I'm screening clients to come work with me enjoying group spaces, always a question I ask about our collective liberation and what that means to them.

1:03:11

Because I think that vision is so key in terms of understanding that when I win, you win.

And when my Meadow wins, I win, right.

And it's not this I mean.

1:03:27

We we know in our community.

That time and energy is finite resources, so there's a lot of pain there if if someone is choosing to spend more time with other people.

But how can we trust in the abundance of our community and understand that there will be more people who want to connect with us and and we want to be with the people who want to connect with us anyways?

1:03:46

We cannot.

We cannot hold people.

Against our wills.

As much as we think we could just like, lock them in and and stop them and try to put some sort of cage around them, that is not how life works.

And resentment.

Builds and you.

You.

Really have to step into that collective energy of all of us coming together.

1:04:05

And of course, that's, you know, I bring in a lot of the frameworks of psychedelic work that's dependent on the set and setting, you know, honest partners, people who are communicating with you, people who have mutual aid as an important value.

All of that makes that space of compulsion.

And feeling what you're speaking.

1:04:20

Do so much more possible because you I'm sure you've had the clients who have like Oh yeah, well, my my partner didn't follow the rules.

We said he he didn't use protection again and and he told me X amount of months later and I'm really stressed out and I don't know why I'm so stressed out about this.

And it's like you set these these commitments.

1:04:38

And they're being dropped and so of.

Course you're going to be scared and and this is going to feel horrible, right?

So I think yeah, set and setting is so important too, and honoring of commitments.

And.

Boundaries like we can't build safe experiences if we're not holding those agreements right.

1:04:55

We have nothing to give our nervous system to tell us that we're safe.

We have all the information to tell us that we're not safe and that we can't trust the situation In those cases can be really helpful to uphold the boundary and say like, OK, I need to be in a relationship with someone who can work towards that.

If you're not doing it right now, at least growing.

1:05:12

But right like.

And if you have enough evidence that like this person simply will not honor those agreements.

Why would I torture my nervous system with a situation that will continue to be unstable?

You know yeah, that's a tough call to make sometimes.

Yeah.

1:05:27

And.

And being.

Able to be present with the reality, not the vision.

Of where?

This person could get oof, oof.

The times I've held out hope for where someone could go versus like, hey Nicole, what are you seeing?

In the here and the now.

1:05:43

And the here and the now, because I'm a, I'm a mad optimist in terms of just thinking that, you know, I any sort of healer practitioner, a part of our work is to see where people can go to see what's possible, right?

And so it's almost part of the relationship dynamic is.

Like, I want to support you and your growth because I feel the gratification of being that part of that, you know?

1:06:03

Yeah.

And we won't even get into this, but like, the power dynamics of being a practitioner in relationship.

Oh, yeah.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

I'm curious for you.

Too when you look.

Back your younger self.

What?

1:06:19

Words of wisdom, perspective.

Would you share with where you're at right now and your pleasure liberation journey?

Yeah, I think a huge guiding principle is dismantling shame.

And then another huge thing that I just speak to in every aspect of my work and my life is curiosity.

1:06:41

I think it's one of the most powerful tools, principles, strategies for literally anything.

It is powerful in the sense that when I'm in conflict with my partner and my nervous system goes into high alert and the critical thinking part of my brain wants to shut down and I go into survival mode.

1:07:01

Choosing curiosity literally helps calm my nervous system.

Also, choosing that curiosity communicates to my partner like, hey, what's going on?

What's happening with you?

I'm seeing something, are you OK?

What is that about?

What is the feeling?

Tell me the feeling.

Curiosity helps calm my partner's nervous system.

1:07:20

So it's this huge conflict resolution tool, but also just as a broader approach to life of questioning.

Like I'm told it's supposed to be this way, but that doesn't feel good.

What is this feeling that's coming up for me?

Why does it have to be that way?

1:07:36

Like curiosity is helpful in dismantling oppressive structures, right?

Curiosity is also helpful in dismantling like cult mindsets.

You know, if you meet someone where your principles don't align and you tell them everything that they believe is wrong, they will never remember that.

1:07:59

That conversation will stick with them.

They will just shut you down.

They have programming that tells them not to engage with you, right?

But if you just pose questions, if you just approach them as like, I'm a human and you're a human and I want to just gently inquire about your life and your experience, and maybe I put a question in there that challenges your way of life.

1:08:19

Maybe I put something that plants a seed, but it does plant that seed, right?

That the question will stay with them.

And it can dismantle purity culture, for example, you know, when you start to ask like, well, why does it have to be that way?

Or why am I treated as an object as a woman?

1:08:39

Why is it that my sexuality has to operate this way?

Why is it only this way and not any other way that it could be right?

Incredibly powerful.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely, yeah.

1:08:56

If you're people's defenses like it really activated if you come in with that critique, they'll just immediately go into defense and often so many of the trauma responses and so your listener when.

Someone's in that part.

Of the brain they're in much more of the older, you know, amygdala parts of the brain that are activated rather than the prefrontal cortex, which is where we can have more of that executive functioning and thinking and so holding that space when you are with people who have different views and also like you named holding it for yourself, right.

1:09:30

I think so much of what you spoke to with the Buddhist teachings and mindfulness and taking that step back from your thoughts, that's like that's the magic sauce of any of the dismantling work of any systems of oppression, even from, you know, homophobia all the way back to what we started with, right?

1:09:46

It's like who, what is this internalized judgement that I have?

The amount of times down this journey of polyamory where I have looked and judge.

I think one of my most prominent ones that I can feel is particularly around parents and someone stepping.

1:10:01

Into this and then seeing people.

Who had kids out with other partners And this like very deep internalized judgement of like, how could you do this when you have kids at home?

Like what are you?

How are you pursuing your sexual pleasure with other people when you have children?

And meanwhile me being someone who wants to have kids and is practicing playing at the same fucking time.

1:10:21

It's like, oh God, it's like.

Every step of the journey, you're going to find a new piece of internalized yuck.

That you're going to have to clean.

Out and rather than that moment where I first had that judgement rather than going, Oh my God, I'm so wrong, I'm so bad.

1:10:37

How dare I think that thought and then quite literally going down a different spiral of self condemnation.

You know, Jessica Fern, just my mentor just came out with the that shame triangle book all about this.

Really cool.

Like the Persecutor?

And all this sort of stuff.

1:10:53

So rather than going down that shame triangle and really trying to like attack yourself, having that moment to point the arrow upwards and say, OK, right, these systems, they exist and are unconscious.

I have been classically conditioned from all these sorts of things.

1:11:08

That's not even getting into the epigenetics of it all, right, To the epigenetics of what, you know, my, my existence, my egg, right, was in my mother when she was in my grandmother's body, just from science.

Right, so we know my.

1:11:24

What was my grandmother experiencing in terms of sexual liberation?

Not this.

So when we take all of that and point the arrow upward, that's where we start to take the step back and we can rewrite new narratives of what's possible and get curious, like you said, of like, how do I want to show up?

1:11:44

One of my favorite questions to ask myself and my community members and my clients is who do you want to be?

Yeah.

Very like act.

In terms of values, identifying the values and act therapy of like identify values, how do we get you closer to that and how do we do the somatic work to get you closer to bridging those two things?

1:12:08

Say, I'm sure you see this too in your client work of so many people are like values wise, I'm totally here.

Somatic wise, absolutely not, I'm not there.

Oh yeah, that's always the disconnect.

Especially if not all those folks.

It's like, I want to be here.

I want, I want to snap my fingers and have my body catch up to my brain.

1:12:25

Yeah, you can't.

You gotta process that because that's how you grow.

No, I know, I know.

I always feel bad when.

Clients ask how can we?

Fix this and I'm like slowly.

Really slowly, and they're like a lot of patience.

And a lot of.

Like hard work, yeah, but this is the work, right?

1:12:45

And I think we can both speak to the the absolute truth that.

It is possible.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

I think we're both testament.

To that, yeah.

Yeah, Well, Laura, we've covered so.

Much today, so much.

1:13:01

It's been such a joy to have you on the show.

And thank you so much for having me.

I've loved this.

Conversation.

Yeah, it's been so fun.

I want to check.

In and see if.

There's anything else you want to share with the listeners?

Otherwise, I have a closing question.

1:13:17

I think we can go to the closing question.

Yeah, thank you.

Take a nice deep breath with you again.

Then and so the closing question that I ask everyone on the show is what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal questioning?

1:13:37

Whether you're normal.

Yeah, well.

Secret.

Anarchist test you have.

Passed You have passed five years of the.

Show that is a running.

Theme of any anarchist is like no.

Yeah, yeah.

1:13:56

Do you want to say more?

Yeah.

I think it's.

Normal to be sexually different.

I think it's normal to question relationship structures.

I think it's normal to question reality.

Yeah.

I think it's normal to question your purpose and where you fit into all of this.

1:14:13

I think it's normal to question.

Mm, Hmm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that's the beginning of the creativity.

Of it, all right.

Mm, hmm.

Mm hmm.

Absolutely, yeah.

Well, it's been such a joy to have you on the podcast.

1:14:29

Today, Thank you so much, Laura.

Of course, Thank.

You I really.

Appreciate you having me.

Yeah.

What a fruitful conversation.

We really went so many places, didn't we?

Yes.

Absolutely.

Can't.

You can't.

You got to surrender who?

Knows where we'll go, right?

Have a great conversation.

Yeah, I'm sure the listeners would love to know.

1:14:46

Where can they find your podcast?

How can they connect with you, work with you?

Please share everything yeah for my services.

It's intimacy with Laura.

That's my Instagram, that's my sub stack and that's my website andevenmyemailintimacywithlaura@gmail.com and my podcast.

1:15:03

It's called Girls on Porn.

You can find us anywhere you listen to podcasts.

Also Girls on porn.com and yeah You.

Can you?

Can find me for just some fun fun spicy porn literacy stuff and you can come to me for deeper support in sex relationships.

1:15:21

I specialize in kink, queer identity, desire discrepancy, conflict resolution, and building intimacy between partners.

And of course, as we talked about a great deal today, navigating non monogamous relationships of all kinds.

Yeah, amazing.

Well, so.

I'll have all of that LinkedIn the show notes below, dear listener, so you can go and check out Laura's content and their work.

1:15:43

So thank you again, Laura, for coming on the show.

Of course, thank you so much for.

Having.

Me dear.

Listener, thank you.

So.

Much for tuning in to modern anarchy.

Thank you for sharing this.

Episode with your friends.

With your lovers, with your community.

1:16:01

Truly it means so much to me and I am so grateful that you are here if you are wanting to release jealousy in your non monogamous dynamics.

And step into a conversion and pleasure filled connection.

1:16:17

You can read my book The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide for free on my website.

There you will also find so many other free resources, including worksheets on how to clearly communicate and set commitments and boundaries within your non monogamous dynamics and other ways to practice clear communication about your sexual desires so that you can step into your most pleasure filled sex and relationships.

1:16:46

So head on over to modernanarchypodcast.com to find all of those free resources and I look forward to seeing you next week.