Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast featuring real conversations with conscious objectors to the status quo.
I'm your host, Nicole. On today's episode, we have Yoli join us for a discussion about the indigenous tradition and enlightenment practice of Tantra. Together, we talk about how the goddess became a tool of the patriarchy, the warped and reductionist notion of Tantra under capitalism, and reaching every moment in orgasm. I think this is a really important conversation to be having on the podcast as a sex educator and as you and I, dear listener, explore all things sexuality and pleasure.
Tantra is often thrown around as a sacred sexuality, hot sex, sort of buzzword that can be thrown around in this space. So I thought it would be important to actually discuss the indigenous traditions and the roots of the practice. I'm so thankful for Yoli coming on and sharing her wisdom and taking the time and energy to share all of this with us and the Modern Anarchy community. I really appreciate you, Yoli.
Thank you. I think it's an important conversation to know that Tantra is so much more than a hot, quick thing to sell to other people for pleasurable sex. It is an indigenous tradition with a long history and Yoli gives us just a drop in the ocean of what this practice is. So I hope y'all come away learning something new today and tune in. So yeah, I mean, one, thank you for coming on the space and be willing to like share your expertise and your knowledge. I really don't know much about Tantra. And I would love if you'd be willing to share a little bit about what you know and kind of go from there and I'll probably just ask a ton of questions I could imagine. How does that sound to you?
OK. Yeah. At any point in time, if you can like paint me even a little bit more context of what what you want me to relate Tantra to, but just to start answering your question. So Tantra is one of the many branches of spiritual cultivation, tradition, very embodied, body-centered practice, yogic. Yeah.
In orientation. And how all these traditions evolved in the South Asian continent. I think a tree image works very well from roots and trunks and branches and then many sub branches and leaves and trees because this is a part of the world where people have been cultivating deep spiritual practice and spiritual insight on the human experience. You know, in semi organized ways, even as Farbekkas 30, 40,000 before the Common Era, we're going to see the prevalence of multiple indigenous traditions that have maybe we'll call them the proto tantras before it's actually codified and named Tantra, this specific spiritual path, process, school, techniques. And so it's really important to root Tantra in its indigenous origin. This is pre Vedic. So the Vedic influence is going to come into the South Asian region around 3000 before the Common Era, and they will dominate the society, the big society that lived in. It's called Mahindra Dada and Hadrapin River Valley.
It's like modern day Pakistan region. That's they're going to dominate by 1500 before the Common Era, and we're going to see the subjugation of those indigenous traditions and the remodeling of them. And so in that indigenous form, there was a lot of goddess worship. There was a lot of worship of divine feminine principle. There's a lot of fertility practices. I want to name a an indigenous non binary, fluid gender construct to this indigenous tradition that it's not so much here's the domain of men, here's the domain of women, here, here's this man, woman, binary structural thing.
It's a much more fluid, earth-centered experience. It's actually the Vedic influence that's going to bring a patriarchy into the into the space, into the region, into the cultural traditions, do a slow takeover, like a 1500 year takeover. And by the time they are, they have a written script. And by the time they're going to codify and write down these teachings, well, it's a very common colonial practice, even if it's an ancient one, to rewrite an indigenous history and indigenous tradition. What the Vedic influence is going to do is subjugate the goddess and subjugate this, this early, earlier form of the really expressive person rooted in healthy sexuality, you know, an understanding of inter relating beyond even just monogamous structures. And subjugate this under a householder model of husband and obedient wife. So the goddess will then be a tool of the patriarch. She is subservient. She serves men and the male principle. She is good, just and validated when she embodies these newer versions of the goddess.
Okay. So one of the things about Tantra, it's not exclusively feminine principle, worshiping or goddess worshiping, but pretty much. And Tantra is going to get codified into an organized system. It's earliest texts around 200 before the common era. And that's also when if we're talking about, so let's see, just to finish in this timeline, 500 before the common era is the time of Shakyamuni Buddha. So that's the birth of Buddhism. Buddhism is going to be a pretty radical shift in ideas in the Indian subcontinent. And it's going to usher in a thousand year golden age from 200 before the common era to 1200 common era. And around that 200 AD, the Shakta Tantras or the goddess worshiping Tantra traditions are going to become their own like organized thing. So we find Tantra from two sources, something that we'll call Hindu, which is a little bit later construct, but it's not a history class.
So we'll go too far into it. And the other is going to be Buddhist. But really to say Hindu is kind of funny. So really we can just say like Shakta and also Shaiva traditions essentially are going to find us our entry points with Tantra. Now as the timeline goes and as ideas will flow and as empires will come and go and further genocides, what will happen is the Buddhist Tantra will get nearly 100 % erased from India and they will find shelter in Tibet in 1200. So when Buddhism's heyday ends, Tibet becomes a safe haven for Duttatharma. But we will find now the Shaktatantras and other Shaiva Tantras of the South Asian continent continuing to practice and prosper, but they must practice and prosper under like a safe umbrella, you know, like this in order to survive.
I'm just thinking if there's anything else I might want to share in that. So the the mantra that we find today, it's a pretty vast and confusing landscape of whole teachings, partial teachings, trademarks, just complete and utter misdivision and misunderstanding. I also want to name that some of the people that historically are responsible for that are the European scholars that came to India who themselves were were really burdened with the lens of a very moralistic and dogmatic Christianity of social Darwinism, of racism and classism, you know, and so they're going to come and there with their own sexual perversions and suppressions, they're going to meet this, this diet will practice even the remnants of it that they're meeting at that time 1600 1700. What they're finding then it's so open and radical in comparison to their extreme conservatism religious conservatism and puritanical religious conservatism. They're the ones that are going to translate the Kamasutra like they're the ones that are going to bring this idea of fricking to get done to sex into the West and they're the ones that are going to edit the other 95 % of the thought they're teaching them practices and just really sell these you know, brown people and their sexual practices and all this exoticism and perverse nature.
That is really truly what's going to happen. Yeah, for gross. Yes, super gross. So that's the starting point. And, you know, this curiosity of the this male, white male mind and the exotifying of, you know, the female but look, yes, there were historical traditions in South Asia, in India, you know, where people were educators of sex, it makes for a much healthier society when we can have honest and open sex education for like all ages and stages in life. And, you know, a pleasure paradigm to boot. So, unfortunately, so much of the thumb thumbtick practices that are found in the marketplace, they're just like really good branding to sell you better sex.
But there is, you know, and better sex just means pleasure, enjoyment and orgasm. But I also think it's very heterosexual, the orientant and subversive within the like dominant subversive within the relationship and like this but the idea of a couple practice in the thought there's a partner practice, it's something very deep and spiritual in the sense of, and it's also like very human, very of the earth, very of the lived experience, you know, so I think another thing we bump into is this spiritual paradigms that basically will involve gaslighting, spiritual bypass and false ascension paradigms. So this neo-dantra better sex stuff fits right in perfectly with that kind of, you know, sell my stuff, self hypnosis model and what you tell the mind it believes. So, you know, we had these these historical healthy expressions of thumbtick societies.
You know, we had the community sex educators, we had the teachings for healthy pleasure, even at a spiritual resonance for all ages and stages and genders, there was there was a lot of amazingness going on. In a nutshell, dhantra means the science of harmonizing the inner and outer nature. So just like those false ascension paradigms, just some of your like classic like naval gazing or enlightenment kind of things like, again, fantasies of the West, right, Orientalism, you know, the whole point of dhantra is to live the very vibrant life that is available to you here in the earthly realm. And because dhantra is going to evolve in the housing of buddhadharma, of buddhist philosophy, there's going to be a framework of suffering and pleasure of the truth of suffering and the purpose of suffering in life. And what we gain through spiritual penance, preparatory practices, you know, so in a very strict dhantra, the access to the coupled practices in a formal dhantra setting, it's for an advanced practitioner. And it involves a lot of preparatory practice, a preliminary practice like that. And it's not bunny-humping.
Like it's not fucking, you know, it's a meditative awareness, very presencing like this now. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for sharing all of that. Because, I mean, I think kind of like even when I reached out to you, right, of like, oh, I want to learn about sex and erotic, you know, erotic spirituality and all this, that is such like you said, like a Western warped, condensed version of what dhantra is. So I want to thank you for coming on the space and being able to share more about it and expand, you know, my understanding of it and all of the listeners here to be able to know that it's so, so much more than that reduction and the colonial structures that are trying to warp it into their own perversion of this much deeper practice. And we should probably ask, you know, what, what, what was their deal with, with their perversions?
Like, why did they need to warp it? What, what within them was so deficient, you know, that they had to, in this style of cultural appropriation, cultural theft, we're still dealing with the inheritance of that. And that's why, you know, let us also name the work that South Asian people are doing to center their own lineages in their own cultural housing. Right, because if we're going to keep following the model that's been handed to us, then, you know, we're going to keep having yoga and wellness spaces that are exclusively white spaces.
Yes, yes, yes. So, tantra, tantra is a teaching for the people. Tantra is of, by and for the people. Tantra, you know, tantra because I've always been the rabble, rousers and the, you know, like the very engaged community members. When a tantra is going to go off and do their meditative practice, sure, there might be an isolation, you know, that's just a necessity at times, retreat. But even in the tantric heyday of the period of Vajrayana tantra, that 750 common era to 1200 common era, it was like enlightened communities, you know, and these masters of miracles and meditation, they lived ordinary lives and they had names that represented that. The arrow maker and the fishmonger and the earth digger, the holy and enlightened people just live in life, you know, live in the community because the point, the whole point is to be in this, in this life, living it to the fullest. And so that's why in the tantras, as the tantras evolved all the way through Vajrayana tantra, we have the 64 arts, 64 expressions, 64 ways of practicing 64 pathways to enlightenment, you know, including dressmaking and so like clothing design and dance and various art forms and music forms and cooking, all sorts of things.
One of those is sex. One. Yeah. Yeah. Not like 40 of those are sex and you know, the other 14 or whatever. That's right on that.
No, no, you know, so yeah. So then life energy, right? Not necessarily sexual energy, but the vitality of living in your body in this current space, in reality on the ground. Mm-hmm. But sexual energy is life energy. Okay. So, so yes, I would do exactly what I wanted to say, but then is that like some sort of reduction to say that like it's all about sex?
That's my fear. So I don't want to say like sexual. Yeah. Yes.
It is a reduction to say it's all about sex because sex and sexual energy are two different and interrelated things. Okay. Say more. Yeah. Tell me more. Sex is an act.
Sexual energy is the energy of creation and creativity. Yeah. Say more. Tell me more. I am with you.
Say it all. So when we're describing those 64. Arts even, you know, like that's, that's all about creativity and creation and creative problem solving and. You know, the access of this expanded bandwidth that is creativity, pleasure and the experience of pleasure is only limited in the human experience to the active sex. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
I think a lot of people would ask you though, like, how is creativity related to sexual energy? What? Whoa. Yeah. That's why I'm like, okay.
Yeah. In the cosmology of the body, the, the, in the, in the thumb, their cosmology of the body, those energies live in the pelvic bowl at the seat of the reproductive organ. So, you know, think of it as like an operating software. You can recruit from the operating software to procreate. You can recruit from the operating software to explore body pleasure, physical pleasure with self, with another.
I don't know, pansexual, like Lando Calrissian, you know, with a robot. We're already there. Sure. Yeah. We are. Yes.
Or are we talking about a sense of communion with the deep fertility energy of the earth? Same place. Same software. Same energy.
And then we also have, again, the spectrums of creativity and all the ways that that's expressed. Those are all the same software. Yes. Yes. That ability to create. Absolutely. And tapping into. Yeah. How would you say they're the same software?
How would you say, like, I'm with you and like, could we give more language to how they're the same? I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I'm just going to be repeating myself in terms of the center cosmology of the body.
Yeah. How this five elemental form is structured. And the water element that is seated in the pelvic bowl, the whole of the entirety of the pelvic pool. And the themes that I named are the themes that are associated with it.
So I don't know what else I can say to prove your point other than to encourage you to have an experience in your own body and to see how these energies are connected. Absolutely. I mean, yeah, I think. Yeah, I don't want you to repeat yourself and feel like it's not getting somewhere.
That's, that's hard. I think I agree that like it for at least with, because I don't have a time for a background, right? So like, I don't understand that paradigm and the words in the language there to understand this conceptually, but in my own experience, like, feeling like life energy of the vitality of the like just the zest for life to go and to create and have that space. And it feels very similar to me in the same way of any sort of energy within myself to be able to create and to play and to have sex and all those sorts of pieces all come to that same level of zest and play with the world. Because play can be sex and it can be creating music, other sorts of things kind of like even cooking, right?
All these other ways that like that same level of play, zest, energy in the body. And so, I mean, at least maybe that's how I understand it. I just think a lot of people would not connect those two, or at least when I work with people and I talk to people about like, oh, yeah, you're, you know, sexual energy is tied to your creativity.
A lot of people are like, what? So I think that's why I'm asking because I think a lot of people don't even see how these concepts are related to one another. Yeah, but if people are going to understand that there's no amount of talking to them that's going to help them get it, they really just have to be guided through experiences in their own body to make connections for themselves really and truly like, I'm not being dismissive with what you're saying.
Yeah. But if really and truly the disconnect is at that level, then there's no reason to present theoretical frameworks. You gotta go into practice. I hear you.
I hear you. And the practices also have to be, you know, of the physical body. Now, one point I do want to make is that you have to be rested enough to access creativity.
So there's a little caveat here out here in this grind culture. Yeah. You know, that and that that's most also surely a contributing factor in the disconnect, or rather the compartmentalization of creativity and sexuality. And if you happen to be in a body that has a womb space, you know, your body is colonized with extra effort to disrupt you from your knowledge, your game through your cyclic wisdom, whether that is a monthly cycle or just the recognition of multiple cycles one takes throughout one's lifetime. That's thought number one to what you said thought number two is look, the thought this is a codified and organized and highly detailed spiritual practice with a very detailed syllabus. So even when you named the words like, and the zest for life and creativity and environment, but the organizes itself into five vibrational expressions. And I heard you name the things that are connected to more than just. the spectrum of creativity and sexuality. You named other spectrums as well. So one's vitality, one's life force, you know. No, no, that's not solely rooted in the health of one's creativity and sexuality. That's rooted in a few other prime operating systems, all of which get tonified, exercised in the world of thawnthic ritual and meditative practice.
So I just want to name that like, now you can't stuff thawnthrough in a box. It's really specific about what it's specific about. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I would love if you'd be willing to share like those five domains and to someone who is eager to learn more, to learn the language and the different concepts, if you could share more about that, as I'm grasping here to try and connect and try and hold on and learn more. Okay, I mean, let me see if I can like simplify this and connect it to the conversation that we're having. Yeah. So maybe it's helpful to start with colors. Sure.
Yeah. So the these five color frequencies, yellow, red, white, blue, black, and blue, green. And if we're going to go on a higher, those orders, five stages of practice, five lavers of the thawnthrough, the English word that the scholars used along the way in the, you know, 1800s or so were these annals, like channels or pathways or ways or something like that. But it's really more like five flavors of the thawnthrough.
And one of those flavors is really centered on in the physical body, the taming and control of physical body function, cleansing, purification, and body, mind, wisdom. Then there's also a core like transmutation process within each of these. Then for that yellow school, it's the transmutation of jealousy to attainment.
And what that means is from lower emotional resonances to the ability to have a sound vessel that could attain higher states of consciousness. Because thawnthrough is an enlightenment practice. Thawnthrough is not like, first and foremost, it's an enlightenment practice. You know, if you want to get all the way there, way, way up that mountain, you know, then you have to have a thorough preparation.
And the, this body has to be a vessel, a sound vessel to hold it. The second one, the red school is the transmutation of passion to compassion. And there's some, there's resonances of sexual practices in all of these stages, like in the yellow stage is going to be preparation, this Kriya, the cleansing practice. And a lot of those practices are centered in Brahmacharya, celibacy, or celibatic-like practice in the sense of restrainment. It doesn't mean cold turkey, it's restrainment. Because in the thawnthrough, it's not healthy for any body to, I mean, just frankly speaking, not orgasm. That's just, that's just, it's not really healthy. Say more. Yeah, say more. You know, I can, I can, I'm thinking, you know, back to the studies that I did in the places that I did them.
And there was like, even for some of the practitioners that had celibatic practices, there were certain days in the month where they engaged in self-pleasure practices because it's just simply not healthy. It will cause a backup a bit. Now that's very different for bodies with penises and bodies without penises, because in the case of bodies with penises, literally the prostate will back up. And it will, it will empty itself, usually through something like a wet dream.
And in the thawnthrough context, you want to kind of avoid that sort of subconscious thing, because you're trying to like get a handle on the subconscious mind. So, literally like, I don't know, like a full men and new men practice, you know, self-pleasure practice. Now the thing is for, you know, bodies with womb spaces, we don't lose reproductive cells. So, there is an energetic efficiency at play, because in this cosmology of the body model, the brain cells produce the reproductive cells.
It's like a absorption process from food all the way to reproductive cells called the sfaptadattu, and how the body absorbs and generates the next thing. And so like, what would be the most absolutely precious cell in the body? Brain cells. What's the second most precious substance thing in the body? Reproductive cells.
Right. And then it's like bone marrow and bone and the blood all pretty important, you know. So, unfortunately, what the thawnthrough does understand is that frequent loss of semen drains the brain. Right. So, for the thawnthrough, because they're going to teach some restrainment practices so that you're able to retain that spiritual energy and move it upwards. That's the idea. But if you were born in a body with a womb space, in some cases, you would skip that first stage of practice. It wasn't necessary. Modern day? It's totally necessary.
We're all out of whack-a-doo, whack-a-doo. So, yeah, nobody gets to skip that preparatory stage anymore. Right. So then we're coming into this. So, so that's the thing on that. So now, now into that second stage, well transmuting passion into compassion. That's like some lower octave, higher octave, you know, and we've heard, you know, spiritual teachings around like sex is, is, you know, love's lower octave expression. And, you know, like this, I mean, I can, I can think of some references where I've heard some jargon like that.
And me personally, not into it, you know, definitely not subscribing to that one. Yep. Because higher octave, lower octave, I don't know, from whose perspective, benefits from that. Like my first just standard critical questions here. Who came up with this for who? Like, does this even smell patriarchal?
Yes. And, you know, because when we're talking about that patriarchal, you know, paradigm around sex, then it really is just about, you know, pleasure for people with penis. So, mantra, and even these teachings and the transmutation of passion to compassion, it is all very, very woman centered. So this stage of practice also involves lots of meditations within the subtle nervous system, not these chakras and bindus. And yeah, yeah, so understanding the spectrumed experience of passion and how we can transmute that into a helpful tool. But I do want to say that the compassion paradigm isn't just peaceful. There's also a concept of wrathful compassion or direct, direct application, fearsome and intense. Not rageful. Rage would be at the other end of the spectrum of that wrath.
Sure, sure, sure, sure. But righteous. Because rage is pretty destructive in the end.
I mean, it's destructive to the cells themselves, your body. Right. So that's the yoga stage, the union wisdom stage of practice, kriya yoga. Then the next stage of practice, the next flavor, next operating software is now aligned with mind and emotions, very psychology stage where we might start looking at our attachments as well as playing games, meditative games within the brain, you know, so like if that second stage is very much about body, okay now we're into these subtleties in the mind, but remember the whole body is going to interface to the nervous system, you know, in your brain is part of the nervous system, so it's still very much a body-centered experience, and the color there is white, it's a transmutation of ignorance to all knowledge, and this is where we're going to insert theory, and so in the tantras, the approach to learning is experiential, you should have lived experience, then you come into theoretical learning, still as to avoid this self-gaslighting, self-hypnosis effects.
Yeah, what do you mean by that of gaslighting if we start with theory? Like if you start with too much theory before you have your own sets of practices, then the mind gets filled with the possibilities of what's happening, and the tendency for this untrained mind is to then further project rather than actually have the lived embodied experience of whatever is this state of consciousness to be embodied. There's also practices in the stage like debate, and meditation is like then koans, and things are getting rather expansive, and if I'm thinking about what are the connections with any of the sexuality, sexuality and creativity practices in this stage, it's a very universal body place, it's beyond, one is starting to move beyond constructs of individuality and coming into constructs of oneness, and I think that that is super connected to an expanded sexuality and creativity consciousness. So there's this body, and we live in this body, we need to start in this body, and this body is regulated and dysregulated in the ways that it is. We come into these training modules that then now, oh charia stage of practice, wisdom stage, practice, we're coming into a very, a very, we're getting towards like the transcendental flavor of things, where we're able to transcend the limitations of the bodily form, the lower animal nature, there's some of the terminologies used in the funders. The next stage of practice is all about bliss out practices, the bliss outs of meditations, and there's 64 bliss outs or 64 some of these. This is the middle time the time through stage of practice, the color is blue, black, and this is the transmutation of hatred to renunciation.
It's like super intense, very intense death practice, but still creative. Look, but now we're in the essence of the yubium, or the intercourse, yubium is a Tibetan word, the sacred intercourse, interplay of the primordial consciousness and existence in the form of the bodhicitta, the universal mind consciousness, or even the godly consciousness. But this is represented in an iconography that has Samantabhadra in blue, black, appearing male-ish form in sexual embrace in yubium with Samantabhadra, his mirror reflection.
Samantabhadra is all creation as reflection of Samantabhadra, the primordial consciousness. They are in sexual union. Yes, it's true, sexuality is woven throughout the thought source, but it's just it's misinterpreted, but I mean it's fun to even recall these things right now. And here's another exemplifier that you look at that, you know, you look at that image, people think sex, not oh, the total union of Shiva and Shakti principles, you know, in the creation of the universe and the fact that you could merge and be Samantabhadra herself and merge into Samantabhadra, the primordial consciousness. Yeah. Human mind sees two people having sex.
Yes. Enlightened mind on the doorstep of enlightenment understand it's conceptual that sexuality or union wisdom is the teaching of all of creation. All of creation is rooted in union wisdom and sexuality, sex, sexual expression, pleasure, you know, joyfulness, these it's all woven together from whatever operating software you're looking at it from.
So now to finish the whole storytelling, the last stage, the haja, blue, green, this is where the actual sexual teachings live. Wow. Yeah, their practices. Wow. It's enlightenment practice. Yeah. But you've already completely merged with the universe.
What is left? It's just going back down to earth to be here in the creation itself, because there's all these spiritual paradigms out there that will have you thinking that the earthly realm or the samsaric realm is a bad and evil place. And that you are a sinful person for even being born here.
And at best, you can be like totally pious and then maybe you'll do better, you know, afterwards. So sad. And like, because feminine principle does manage this place in the form of earth, mother and landscape and fertility practice appropriation. And I do I do just have to pause the name here, you know, the guys teach this in all my spaces, the concept of woman in the tantras is gender fluid, non binary. Woman is all in the in the tantras, actually. So the whole like, you know, the problem is woman, womanhood, femininity, women, blood, taboo, you know, oh, that's all the problem. And so, oh, when you come to this earthly realm, earthly realm, evil, earth mother, evil, women, evil, wombs, evil, we've inherited them. We have this line of now, this is the patriarchy, you know, that now that's the norm. And what you and I are talking about right now is something totally abnormal and like off the, you know, it's so silly. Right. Just to finish up, because I don't know, maybe somebody listening is going to find this interesting.
I am somebody I know. This last stage is called Sahaja. And it's the transmutation of irritation. It's kind of like chaos, like irritation to spontaneity and equipoise.
Spontaneity and equipoise is every moment enlightenment. Could also say every moment and orgasm. But not the like physical orgasm that we associate orgasm with. Orgasm is only a matter of the body. But come on, have you not had an orgasmic conversation with someone?
Have you not listened to music or poetry or whatever that somebody's art that elicits such an incredible response in your body? They're just orgasmic. Have you had orgasmic dreams or just orgasms in your dreams? Have you, you know, like if you think about it, orgasm is much beyond like an intellectual conversation, you know, an experience of the spaces in between and that being so restful. And I just, I don't really think that orgasm is only subscribed to this one thing, you know?
So it's any wonder that our ancestors worship Yoni and worship Fallacy. You know what I mean? Like they knew what was up. Yeah.
Like they were playful with it. You know, I think of the shelling the gigs on the temple spaces and the Celtic tradition. I think of these these phallic traditions, you know, throughout the like Roman diaspora.
Those guys fucked all the time. Yeah. Yes. Yes. I'm not saying it was the healthiest of relationships.
Right. How did they do it? They were turned into their pleasure paradise. You know, also highly exploitative.
Yeah. You know, but like I remember climbing up this mountain and like remote remote remote area of Eastern, Eastern Nepal. Now we were, we were not Eastern.
Well, like central Himalaya like up, up, up, up, up. Oh, we caught us. Well, we get all the way to the top. And then, you know, at the entrance to the, this temple are these like indigenous fertility images.
One with a penis, one with a womb, you know? And I was like, this is so cool. The indigenous people here. Yeah, sure they adopted Buddha Dharma. They're caretakers of this amazing knowledge. And at the same time, they never lost sight of their indigenous values around fertility, creativity, sexuality, and the healthy expression of that. You know, you know, even in imagery as a point.
Right. Well, I think I said everything about these five flavors of the tantras. That same model is the five elements themselves and how they show up in the body is the yellow square in the lower pelvic bowl, the green or blue green circle of the water phase. And that's this creativity, creation, sexuality, energy we've been talking about from the middle pelvic bowl up to the heart. Then there's the red triangle of fire that sits from the heart to the head. There's the white sort of umbrella kind of looking structure in the head here. And then above the head is the black, blue black of the samadhi practices, the enlightenment practices. Right. And then it's like, yeah, but I said the order, when I said the order, it was yellow, red, white, blue, black, blue, green.
Right. But as it goes through the human experience, we move upwards, we move through one octave of the water section, that sexuality, energy on the way up. We experience our bliss outs, our enlightenment, and we come all the way back down. It's like the syllabus of the practices. Ah.
To the pelvic bowl. That's the flowering of this 64-pedal lotus in the form of the artistic expressions of life. And the fact that we can embody our life through creativity, through artistry, through psychric awareness, through harmony with nature and cycles and midstirality and all sorts of things, seasons.
And even through being here, live really fulfilled life. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. It was beautiful how you portrayed that with the going up and coming back down, back into the body. And I mean, again, thank you for sharing all this wisdom.
And in my head, I'm hearing like how much, when people say Tantra is sex and salad is that, how much, just from this conversation alone, that is a gross reduction of the whole practice? It's cutting out because it's not even the totality of that blue-green phase or that water. It's not even the totality of it. So it's super reductionist, but that's what happens in the marketplace of ideas. That is what happens with the imposition of capitalism. That is what happens with the commodification of spirituality because these things aren't really meant to burn you on a healing path.
And I don't want to knock that because there's people out here like creating experiences for people. Yes, they label them Tantra. They're not really Tantric in a traditional sense, even though they might be able to quote some kind of lineage or affiliation. Yeah. And at the same time, someone could enter those spaces and find healing. Yeah. They can find instruction.
They can find tools that help them. So I don't knock it, but when asked to speak about what something is, I will always rep the truth of the matter as I have practiced it, as I am a lineage holder of that. Yeah.
The duty to demystify and clarify. But as a person out here in the same grind that everybody else was in, because no, I'm not in that phase of my life where I'm in that cave meditating anymore. I sure think about that time.
Yeah. I want to hear about that time. I wasn't there anymore.
It was great. I didn't have a care in the world. I stepped into the fleas and the spiders. Then I learned that I could just meditate in my apartment.
It was great. So this was a real cave, not a metaphorical cave. No, these are all real caves. Yeah.
The Himalayas, old, wet, full of fleas and spiders. Wow. But no, I've understood and even, you know, my teachers instilled in me this view that like, people will gravitate towards what they need at their residence and their need at that time. And so it's super annoying that the Indigenous tradition, known as Banthra, rarely has a chance to tell its story. And that what's promoted in the marketplace is pretty far from what it is, at least in the Thamthrich example that we were starting with. Yes. Eradicism, you know, Thamthrich sex, partner practices, or just, you know, I think of queer Thamthrich spaces, you know, that are professing that they're about teaching, but folks also might, I'm not saying they're all like this, but you know, a couple examples I'm thinking of are actually exploitative settings. And then people are coming into the settings and they're seeking. But then what they found was this like no quality budget Charleston model.
That really hurts to see. But I've noticed that even if I try to dissuade folks from something being possibly disingenuous, if that's what they're, if that's what they want to go for, that's what I go for. So, well, that's a little complex and problematic that like people may be drawn towards something that's actually really harmful. And sometimes you're able to intercede and sometimes you're not.
People are drawn towards something that isn't necessarily authentic, but they get something out of it. Right. You know, and, and then there are thunder teachers out here teaching real thunthricks things. They are rare. They're very rare. Right.
Very rare. I don't teach thunthricks. I just teach thunthricks theory. Hmm. Because I've noticed there would be no point in giving any practices unless a strong, strong, strong framework was built. I hear you. We're at that Kria stage practice.
We're at that building the vessel, making the vessel sound. Why? Because this system has us out here broken, you know, but I also want to name the power of intuition. I want to name the power of tuning into your own naturality within. Thunthricks all about naturality. Thunthricks all about like this wisdom is housed within you.
Here are just these practices that can help you access it. Of the thought that we are transforming into a new system that is a self-guru model from this prior system, that there were always intermediaries between you and your enlightenment, your realization, your ascension, like whatever, whatever it is, whether it was a priest relationship or anything like that, you know, or a teacher or a guru or a gatekeeper, you know, an initiation model, the dhampa dhampa is, you know, an initiation model. I think we're actually coming into a new era in our human evolution and we are evolving past the guru model. Mm hmm. And we're arriving into the self guru model.
Yeah. Now, that doesn't mean we're totally abandoned to figure it all out. Now, what we need is really strong community. And in that community, what we have is the bodhisattva guru, the spiritual friend. They're in the path with you. They may be a few steps ahead. But what they are is a really good listener who helps you in your self validation.
Because you can achieve your illuminations and enlightenments, your insights and your healing outside of a formalized practice. Yeah. You can through the bond of a loving relationship, healthy boundaries, and of course the practice of consent, you know, explore with self with others, ways to reclaim your body sovereignty, including your sexual sovereignty, and to challenge these modes of these colonialist modes of imposition. We've named them in the form of gender, in the form of colonial and imperialist systems, in the form of the economic imperialism of capitalism, in the form of religious imposition superiority, in the form of pseudoscience of social Darwinism, you know, dividing us into a totally false construct of race, or the constructs of class, social dominance, you know, like, I believe that our ancestors held on to these gems for us. And even though the guru model is waning, which is why there's so many shudders out there. It's another reason why.
Hold it on. So this is what I hold the space for in my teaching spaces, is about a rehabilitative learning experience, literally rehabilitating your capacity for learning through your body sentience, through the body mind, the very wise body mind, the rehabilitation of intuitive and psychospiritual gifts and powers and abilities, and the cultivation of deep, deep restfulness so that we can be rested enough to access these vibrations, these resonances, first and foremost, healing resonance. So, you know, I'm advocating for a sexual expression that is healing, expressive and playful. I'm advocating for good boundaries and always the practice of consent, advocating for lots and lots and lots of self exploration, once personal pleasure paradigm. And yes, I acknowledge that sometimes restrainment can be fruitful when we want to be able to observe a pattern or an operating software in the body.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was resonating a lot with what you were saying of the inner healing wisdom of letting go of the guru and shifting that paradigm as someone who navigates in a different space as a psychologist and training. And you talked about the importance of community. And that's also, you know, how I was connected with you from Valerie Ray of I'm training at that site at sauna where like the whole, you know, mantra or slogan or whatever we want to call that if community is medicine. And it's actually been very interesting, right, as a psychologist of like, how do you not enact harm when that whole model is actually taught in the opposite direction of what you're saying, right, which is like, the psychologist knows more, the psychologist sees this and you don't know what you're speaking about, let me show you what you need to flipping it into a completely different model of inner wisdom, inner intuition that knows what to heal.
And so it's been interesting being in that community space, which is shifting even my paradigm as I train here, right, which even in their model, they're, they're teaching me by meeting me where I'm at and slowly doing it exactly, right. And a lot of what they have even spoken of in that space is like, when we think about the body and how the body like naturally heals from a scar, right, it's not like we have to tell the body to heal. And what if we understand our psyche in the same way, right, of like, naturally, we have this inner wisdom of what needs to come up and be processed and know how to kind of like plants naturally turn towards the sunlight in the same way in our own existence, you naturally turn towards what you need.
And so a lot of that was resonating with me in terms of like how we were connected in this conversation. And yeah, understanding just changing these paradigms of knowing that in ourselves, we have way more wisdom than structures like psychology and other sorts of outside influences are trying to tell us. I mean, yes, and some more yes, something that I think about with what you're saying is instinct and intuition are on the same spectrum of experience and instinct is can be very much related to our survival programming, our reptilian brain, our fight or fight, the pathetic nervous system response. And, you know, considering the dimensions of this conversation today around, you know, how are intuition and sexual energy, because I mean, I want to call it like sexual creative energy, because for me, it's one and the same. Yeah, you know, but how is intuition connected? Oh, my gosh, creativity, sexuality, energy. She use the intuitive power.
Yes. You know, and the intuitive power is the, the compass that we need to navigate the healing experience where we have body autonomy, album with medical industries of all sorts, including the psychotherapy industry, medicine's youngest and least developed branch is that there is no space. In that model or spirituality or intuition, unless your practice is transversal psychology, and that's the premise of transversal psychology.
There's, there is a dimension. There's a space in that healing approach for spirituality or intuition, for the, the cultural pieces that come along with that. I mean, what's up for like BIPOC people having this stuff in these white psychotherapy spaces where there's no room for your cultural paradigms, because your cultural paradigms can't be separated from your spiritual paradigm.
But since there's no room for spirituality in Western psychotherapy in the style of, of young and Frank, then you have to leave all these, you know, so it's the colonialists. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah.
I'm with you. I'm at my training. I'm at my school trying to say that they're trying to force me to conceptualize within a framework for like assignments to get through school to get this degree.
Right. Like where like I have to conceptualize through just one theoretical model in terms of psychology. And I'm like, where is the spirituality in any of these as someone working at sauna where I'm doing ketamine assisted psychotherapy altered states of consciousness. Yada, yada, spirituality. And that's just not even in the framework of what my whole doctorate in teaching is.
And so for me to even step out of that, I'm breaking the system in that. So it's just, it's wild. Well, you named it.
So I got to say it. I think it's most ridiculous thing ever that like psychologists are going and taking weekend workshops in micro dosing, so the five in and then working with their clients. I think that is the most ridiculous thing ever. And it's so colonialist. It's taking the medicine practice of indigenous people and putting in the hands of people who haven't even journeyed with the plant medicine themselves. But because it's going to expand their business practice is going to make the money they're like, and I can, I can do it, you know, depending on your state.
I think it's so ridiculous. What I want to be very and am very supportive of is the use of civil science micro dosing for all sorts of mental imbalances and specific healing circumstances. But in the hands of whoever, you know, as a trend, distinct also Ketterman.
I have so many clients in my healing practice that have utilized Ketterman at some point in time. And I'm also not real sure about that one either. Not really sure about, of course, I've seen the data also. I've read the papers.
Amazing results. I've also seen people become debilitated as a result of using it. You know, so this whole experimentation thing, you know, of a chemical medicine is reckless to say the least, you know. So I don't know how this relates to our larger conversation, but I'm on it all really. It's in someone. I know that for sure. It's all related to our experience, you know, and I'm, I hear you on like it is, I don't know how to work in the system and to make it change for the better. Right.
It's really tricky. And I think I also know of like Kettamine clinics where there is not even the setup of a therapist who work with you on this sort of stuff. It's very much so a medical model of like, Oh, you have this.
Okay. Come sit for the infusion one hour, get out and there is no processing of it, which is even scarier. Like, right?
Is like, they're so scary. And that is actively legal, at least in Chicago. I don't know where you're at and actively happening. Right. And so it's even scarier to think about that, right? Of like even taking it step out of just like, yeah, letting people, here's the medicine, here you go.
Kind of in the medical model of like, take it and you'll be better. Yeah. So I don't know how. That's super scary.
Right. I don't know how to work in the system, make it get better and also not even like contribute like you're saying to the same experience of even like colonializing like the medicine itself and doing these practices that still engage in capitalism and like other sorts. I really have no idea yet how to work in the system, survive in a capitalistic world, not make it worse, but also do healing all at the same time. But I'm trying. That sounds like a whole different conversation. It is. Absolutely is. Absolutely is.
But yeah, one solution at a time, maybe. That is an interesting conversation. I have many thoughts on it, but I will confess my fatigue in this month. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, then. There's a sense of completion here. Good. Good.
Good. Well, then let me ask you the closing question that I ask everyone on the podcast, which is what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal? But I would like everyone to know that their sexuality is an indicator of their health and have the tools to explore that in every age and stage of life and body expression and whatever it is as your body presents that you have access.
I mean, I kind of have a wish in there that just everyone was able to have access to the supportive teachings, theory and practice to support their healthy sexuality, their healthy creativity, bolstered by restfulness. Yes. Yes.
Yes. I really want to thank you for coming on the podcast. I know this was more so of a teaching of me sitting back and listening. And so I want to just thank you for your time and energy sharing the wisdom with me and all the listeners that will hear this episode. So thank you. Yes. Thank you for having me.
I trust that this conversation can be generative for both of us and the folks that will listen and to just give us some good reminders there as we dismantle the chain. Yes. Yes. Is there anywhere you want to plug for people who want to connect to you and your teachings and are resonating?
Oh, yeah. So I'm always cooking up unrestful healing rehabilitative spaces. My website is yogawithyoli.com. All in word. Instagram is at Yoli Yogini. Y-O-L-L-I.
Y-O-G-I-N-I. You can come on retreat with me in Mexico in February. It's all about resting and healing. You can hang out online with me. I do ancestor spaces. Sometimes I do some of these like cultivation of your practice workshops and aspects around the space holding of business and like how we do this.
Exactly your question. And then I get to do fun collaborations with other friends. So you can find me in those places and spaces. Sometimes I'm in Chicago, Illinois, Turtle Island. And at the moment I'm on an ancestral journey visiting places where the bones of my ancestors rest. Beautiful.
And I'm currently in North Africa. Beautiful. Well, yeah, thank you. Thank you again for sharing all that. And I'll make sure that I have your website and everything right below.
So you can just go directly to it. If you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast. And if you're a part of the anarchist community and then follow us on Instagram or nominate a guest for the show by sending in a letter to modernanarchypodcastatgmail.com. Otherwise, I'll see you next week.