Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast featuring real conversations with conscious objectors to the status quo. I'm your host, Nicole. On today's episode, Chris joins us for a vulnerable conversation about their journey into the liberation of polyamory and unfolding the matrix. Together we talk about the expansiveness of connection, the surrender and trust needed to find security and change, and how our identity shifts through relationships. This episode is exactly why I call this podcast Conversations and not interviews, because I was in a tough place during this time of my life and I recorded this episode with Chris a couple months ago.
I needed community, I needed other people in this world who could see me and the struggle that I was going through at that time. First off, I just want to say thank you Chris for holding this space for me. I know when you're getting invited onto a podcast, maybe this isn't what you expect, but I needed it.
I needed you, I needed community, and I needed other souls out there who could see me in that pain. I was really struggling with the reality of being in love with someone who is monogamous and just feeling like there's so much security in that space. Feeling like that's the safe space that I wanted to go into, but at the same time, feeling like stepping into that space was quite literally cutting off aspects of my self-exploration, aspects of my own self-identity. I felt like I was losing a limb, but I wanted the security and I love that person.
I still do love that person, even if we have decided not to embark on a relationship together. I was really having it, and I think you can hear it in this episode as I go back and forth between the experience of feeling so frustrated and scared to step into polyamory and to trust that I'm going to be okay even if I don't have the primary partner because we are our primary partners for that solo relationship. We all need community, that is for sure, but also being able to ground ourselves in our own self-love is a really radical act. That self-love comes from having other relationships that are able to hold you and see you in your pain and your experience like Christed here for me. I hope y'all feel connected to our shared experience of the scariness that is stepping into polyamory. Anyone who says this is easy has some really secure attachment that I don't have. If it is a struggle, if it is scary, I just want to say that you're not alone in that.
I think back to that episode with Dean, episode 84, about how we do a lot of scary things in life because it means we are living more. I just could not and I cannot cut off this aspect of myself that loves more than one person. I hope y'all enjoy today's episode and find some resonance in the beauty of polyamory and the struggle as we explore both sides of the coin today here in this episode together.
Y'all, tune in. So then where do you start your journey? Where do you want to begin the story? I've been thinking about that actually. I think I want to start with a little bit of a snapshot of where I am.
Let's do it. I'm a known individual. Where are you today? The place I find myself now is I am in three non-monogamous polyamorous relationships.
I currently live alone. I am married to my spouse whose first initial is S. They use they and them. I have been married to them since 2008. So it's been a long time since we started dating in high school, like high school, sweethearts, whole thing. I'm also dating a person who's first initial is A.
She uses her pronouns. We've been dating for four and a half years and she and I see each other probably the most out of all my partners. And we've really built a life around each other in a pretty deep way. And then finally I am dating a person who uses K as their first initial and uses she or her pronouns.
We've been dating for about a year and a half. And so all of those relationships really feed into my life in different ways. And I think part of polyamory that really spoke to me was the ways that I can really make space for those relationships and feel support from them in different ways. It really allows me to move through the world kind of charting my own course, but receiving support from all these different places at the same time.
So that's where I am now. I'm broader biographical details. I'm a teacher.
I teach at a private school and I'm 36 years old. I'm a gender. I use any all pronouns. I was assigned male at birth and I typically get coded as masculine. However, I've used she, her, I've used they, them. I've tried it for a brief period of time. I've tried neo pronouns a little bit and all of those feel approximately equivalent.
So whichever one gets used with me is the one that I kind of go with at the time. So that's where I'm at today. And there's so much context to all this. I was taking notes. So a she, her four and a half years, you live most of the time with and you've built a life with, I think is what I wrote down. And then married to us, they, and since high schools, that's been gosh, we got together in 04. So it's been 18 years. Yeah.
You passed the point where I have now spent more of my life in a relationship with them than before. Wow. Wow.
Wow. And then there's Kay. She, her one and a half. Yeah. Okay. I was taking notes over here.
I appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't want to forget anything. I feel like, especially with Polly people, we always have like a whole world too. Right. It's like, it's like, it's not just one.
Well, and it's a whole thing of just remembering the broader context of trying to remember all of the birthdays and the anniversary, not just your anniversary, you start remembering like your partner's meta anniversary and then start remembering not just the history of your relationship, like, Oh, how did I meet us? Okay, there's a funny story of how we were sledding and I ran them over the sled. But then also how did they meet their other partner?
Oh, well, actually, that's also. And so you end up with this deep web of connection and knowledge that really just, I'm an extrovert and I love people. And so feeling this web that's so much greater than I could ever build. Wow.
Yeah. In a monogamous relationship. Now, I think that there is something to be said for recognizing that just because a relationship is monogamous doesn't mean you don't have that web.
It just means that your friendships can branch and grow more fully too. I think for me part of what I've really embraced about polyamory was so I did not come to polyamory until S and I had already been married for a number of years. We were raised both very Christian. I will very cis, very straight, very monogamous, very Christian.
I actually started going to school to be a pastor, like hardcore, cis, het, the tiny white picket fence life, and pieces of that fell away slowly as, you know, you start really like heterosexuality and gender, but still pretty tied into that view of myself. But what always felt restricting was the idea that you build your life around this person, that this person should be enough for you and that you should have this eternal love and in the strain of Christianity we were in, it was very much this is your soulmate, this is the person that you'll be within heaven. And S and I always had a super strong understanding of like, yo, no, if our relationship ever kind of turns bad, leave. Like, we always had a view of our relationship as contingent, but still very strictly monogamous.
And I always felt a lot of guilt because I had attraction to other people and I wanted relationships with people and I had formed friendships and feel like I had to build this wall up around those friendships, like this far and no further. Right. And that always sucked. And I feel like I never really built the friendships that I could have when I was younger in high school and in college. And suddenly I'm in grad school.
I go back to grad school to get a degree in philosophy and love that. Yes. Yes.
Yes. I Have a BS. I have a bachelor of science.
I have a BS in philosophy, which I feel like is the most Perfect explanation of my life. Yeah. Yeah, welcome But I went back to grad school and there was this person I had a crush on I huge crush on them they Brilliant they were funny they were neat and I want to be friends with them And I was friends with them and I would come back from hanging out and we would have been reading this super weird dense Philosophical treatise and I would come back and I would stop saying I'm just like I just like them so much and S would just say Yeah, that's wonderful. Of course, you have a crush on them. They're cute. They're smart You enjoy hanging out with them. Why wouldn't you have a crush? because I'm married to you and as this response is just like Here's this thing that they were exploring their gender at the time and they as I was researching I came across this idea of polyamory and Reading some tumblr posts that they had found way back in the day Was the most freeing experience I could have I've ever experienced it was so liberatory so Beautiful to just realize that there is a framework where I can love S and I can Care for them and honor them and just want to build my life with them, but still see what's going on with this other person and care about them and see where it goes and just let that relationship develop not independently but separate from my relationship with S And I think That to me has been the biggest change since I started practicing polyamory is just That friendships can be what they will be it has been such a relief to be able to hang out with someone and to be able to Just kind of live in the space of I wonder what's going to happen I wonder If it turns out that we have one tv show We have in common and we love talking about it and we talk about that and that's the depth of the friendship cool Or is it going to be that?
actually We really resonate on a pretty deep level and suddenly I've been dating them for four and a half years Not feeling the need To pigeonhole those relationships not feeling the need to close off those There have been times where after realizing that I was polyamorous where I was in a single relationship and That's kind of the way that happens sometimes, but it felt so different being polyamorous but only in one relationship because It meant That was a state that was in flux that was a choice that was a position. I found myself Not a requirement not a binary. I am in a single relationship. I am out of a relationship. No, I'm always in relationships. I am married to s but then I'm friends with this person, but then I'm kind of intimate acquaintances with this person like mm-hmm Just The framework for being able to explore those relationships Just radically changed how I understand myself as a relational person Yes Yes, and at least I am resonating with you so deeply of like you talked about the wall Right this this feeling like I want to go deeper with this person, but I have to blunt off my connection my potential to love or what this person means to me and what we can explore together in terms of intimacy like Ugh to have to feel like you have to stop that.
I feel like sometimes polyamory gets this rap of being all about sex and being all about like You can have sex with multiple people at the same time like oh man and that is a piece of it at times at times it's not though and it is about Being able in so far as the partners that you're okay with and the conversations you have Being able to say I'm interested in this person. This person seems neat. Let's see which paths of intimacy feel right maybe My gosh, this person and I connect on such an intellectual level We read all the same books and we just want to talk until two o'clock in the morning about The philosophical discussions that not a single one of my other partners wants to hear mm-hmm But there is no sexual chemistry there. Yeah.
Yeah And polyamory embraces that and says oh wow that is a super valid relationship And you should sink as much energy as you want to that and it's not it's not a threat if when I was married Just to s and I was an octopus That would have felt like a betrayal that would have felt like I was giving away a piece of myself that should have been theirs Mm-hmm And instead being able to say no, this is another relationship It might take some time away from you because that is like the hard truth of polyamory is that time and energy are finite Well, not but absolutely. Yep. Those are things you navigate. Yep but being able to honor The ways that intimacy is developed across relationships is just revolutionary to me It's expansive, right That's the entire thing is It encompasses so many different ways of being and being in the world and being with people My friendships not my like friendships with a possibility of more not my None of those just my straight-up friendships. Mm-hmm.
You'll richer Because there is this lack of constraint the constraint is The things that I choose and they choose and we build together, you know, maybe it's the case that actually they're not open to much more energetic interaction. They really are only looking to Text once a week about the bear's game or something. I don't You know, like that's the that's what they're looking for is just the once a week thing Cool, and that's what their boundaries are. That's cool.
And that works for me. We build that really but if I find somebody that It feels like we want more I can explore that and we can explore that together until I find what feels good to me And what feels good to them? Yeah Yeah, yeah, it's like That's free love, right? There's this one poly song. I love that's got him free love.
Wow. We are the hippies A little bit. Shit There is this one quote from a poly song and it was like it's not indiscriminate fucking. It's indiscriminate loving I Don't know about that. I feel challenge me.
Yeah Oh, well, it's a song actually. I don't know but I like I think I think that there is this feeling that yes, of course that We are free But if anything I feel like I'm more discriminating now I wonder if I'm gonna yeah, you should tell me in what ways because I'm I'm thinking I understand but let me hear The fact that I can Have as many relationships and connections And they can look however I want at like as long as my partner is an eye and it's healthy and all of those things are cross I can build this life. However, I want I am not bound to a societal playbook I am not on that relationship escalator where I started dating this person in high school We are married.
That means that this is how this precisely goes. I can choose I can choose that yep S and I have been married now for 14 years If I could do the math right I believe 14 And we live apart and that is it was a hard change It's the best change that has happened to me In the past two decades beautiful change absolutely love it and I can do that because That's the change that works the best for us I am more discriminating because I am choosing it. I am the one that is living this life and so if I invest my energy in someone that is a positive choice that I'm making not just a passive acquiescence to societal demands sure yeah, absolutely. Yes 100 % so like you're being thoughtful in all of that and so it's yeah, it's not indiscriminate in that way I guess of like we are still very like thinking choosing these things and I think another thing that I recorded with one of my one of the close people in my world tn and they were talking about how like When you start to have so many relationships, there's also this like, you know, it's a little bit like you're you're just more connected So when you choose to take I mean take on a new relationship It affects your other relationships in a different way that might pull away energy from the ones that you've already established So then like in many ways it's not complete just like oh, let me just love everybody It's very much so like oh, I have to be conscious the fact that I already have these other relationships that have needs That I've committed to and willing to like stay with and so you're going to change all that dynamic just from coming in and it is such a give and take and a feeling of Recognizing that if that happens that if my dynamic with someone changes or my like a new Partner enters one of my partner's lives.
I get a new method the ways that that ripples through my life for better, for worse, for just equal change and having that experience, right? Feeling that in my soul of how this, I'm happy for them. I love being able to experience that and seeing that new relationship energy and just like getting giddy with them.
That compersion is such a heady high. But also just the growth that's required to just kind of step back, let it happen, figure out that freedom is so scary and so hard. And that means that if I find myself in that place, I am keenly aware of the ways that I am shaking my, we talked about a web.
I am shaking that entire web. Yep, absolutely. Yep, yep. Yep, yep, exactly. So it is beautiful, yes, expansive and intricate, right?
At the same time, very careful. So like that it is interesting how that works, right? That that that's the both sides of the coin, I think, right?
Of the dynamic of polyamory. I completely agree. And I think that that is one of the things that I love about it.
Right. As terrifying as it is and as daunting as it is, because I think one of my partners really expressed it well of in polyamory, she felt like she gives up control of her world. Yes, I'm with her.
He is brilliant. Okay, like, and it was such a powerful moment for me to sit with her as she grappled with the ways that by being with somebody that is with other people, you give up at stability of I'm worried about one relationship. I am worried about just my relationship with a that's all I've got to worry about. That's all they've got to worry about. You know, you have to worry about if your boss is being a jerk, you have to worry about if your sister in law is just planning a wedding and being just the work like, you know, you worry about those. One thing is what you invest your energy in. Suddenly, my relationship with a is deeply tied to my relationship with us.
Yep. And grappling with that and making peace with the fact that you are no longer the soul celestial bodies and a binary system orbiting each other, everything is moving is such an act of surrender and trust and so when we come back to that like indiscriminate and talking and discriminant loving, you can't like you need to trust that the people that are moving through this system with you care. I'm so afraid of that. That is so scary. That is so scary. What do you mean?
Why? Because I like the security of like someone's going to be there like and you know they're not going to end like I get it. Like I know you can leave and stuff but like knowing that they're going to be there where like and I know like it's I guess trusting into the web right. It's trusting that like I'll be able to hold myself and be in it but it's like there's some sort of like safety kind of like you know your partner was saying of like level of control of like when you make this monogamous commitment. It's like for sorry I shouldn't say this in a bad voice right when you make the monogamous commitment. I just kind of demeaning when you make them an agamist commitment. It's it's for life right so then it's like we're going to be there versus like oh there's this reality that like you could really have a game changer our amount of time together could change and my relationship with you is dependent on all your other relationships with people like it's really embracing like the like full reality of changes and inevitable and this really complex way. The new show right yeah when you're in a monogamous relationship, you know who's going to pick you up from the airport exactly exactly exactly tiny thing it's.
Yes, yes. And you know hey turns out that they actually had a long day at the office and whatever whatever. Yeah that feels so different that actually I can't pick you up at the airport because I have a date night with this other person that. Yes, that's so different. I had coven and no one was there and I felt so like fuck.
Oh my god. Yeah I same. I was quarantined and before that, like I was living by myself but I right before quarantine hit, I had started living solo. And it was scary but you know I'm a member of two different gyms I've got my job I've got my relationship you know I'm kind of.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then quarantine hit and suddenly you're locked into this tiny at a studio apartment and just utterly isolated and then I got exposed I never tested positive but it was that same thing of just. Who's there for me who's going to go walk to Walgreens to go get the cold medicine.
I had to walk. Right like. There is the trite answer right that polyamory enthusiast give of yeah trusting in the web of. Yeah I don't know who can pick me up at the airport, but my odds are three times better that someone. That's fair that's fair that's fair. But it's not the same and it's not as given as comfortable. Right and here's what I feel like I'm coming to like, even if that's the world and I have to take that risk like. I can't take the the blocking of love like that first what you were saying of like coming to other relationships and feeling like I have to hinder my capacity for intimacy with people like I literally cannot take that paradigm I am not aware of. Okay, emotionally in this paradigm of me existing in the world like that.
And so it's like, if I'm not okay with that I kind of have to take the risk of like I hope I can sink or swim in this dynamic like fuck you know like I don't have a choice anymore. The difference from retirement right like, who am I going to get old with who is who's going to be the person that helps me when I'm in a wheelchair when I'm 80 years old you know it is entirely possible that my. spouse would have also been in a wheelchair or would have died before me or a million other possibilities, but it is so terrifying to give up the shirri and it's imaginary it's the imaginary.
I know I know because we could die at any point. Yeah, 100 % or like it turns out that your monogamous partner was a jerk the entire time like right that that has happened a couple times, or you get divorced you get divorced at 60 because. Suddenly you have different you know it life happens right, but to voluntarily give it up and to make that choice is. I don't think that it's a thing that the community always grapples with super openly of what would you give up when you take that leap. Yeah, I think that's what I've been sitting with of like what what you give up when you take that leap and like how, how different it feels when you're moving through the world and how your sense of self feels different my sense of self feels radically different. And I know you mentioned that earlier too about like all these relationships you know expanding your sense of yourself through that.
To me that is the thing that I really relish is being able to bring different pieces of myself to each relationship and to have the freedom of the person that I am with s is a different person that I am with a just because. s has a larger extended family and I am like I was an only child, their siblings are my siblings. We grappled with some family bereavement a while ago and I experienced that in such a visceral connected way because we have such a deep history. Their mom baptized me right like that level of just connection and history and all of those things isn't something that I can just create isn't something that just happens.
But then I like my relationship with a is one that they're the ones that had the incredible realization about like giving up of emotional stability and just the emotional literacy and the emotional connection that I have with her is breathtaking and beautiful. Yes, yes. And I get to inhabit that role so fully there.
Oh yeah. And I am the most intellectual, weird ultra nerd with K that I can't and like my gender is different in those just because yes. Yes, non binary uses they them and so when I'm presenting masculine and they're presenting pretty masculine. I feel gay, because yeah, I'm presenting as if I'm in a same sex relationship and so I move through the world in a very different way.
Whereas my relationship with a I am her boyfriend. Like that is just how I exist in that dynamic and I love it. It feels really nice. It feels lovely. It feels comfortable. It feels so caring. Do I know what it means to be a boy in that relationship.
I don't know. She is super good about acknowledging the ways that I am not a man. And we've gone out when I'm wearing a dress and makeup and all of those things and I always have my nails painted. But our gender dynamic really does fall into a pretty boyfriend-girlfriend dynamic and that feels wonderful.
It feels really light and it feels really comfortable. Yeah. But then with Kay, I came into that relationship really embracing being a gender and she's really only ever used they, them for me and any of her partners only use they, them for me. And so just going in with that freedom, with that expectation that I do not exist, I am her paramour. That is the term that we use because it is explicitly gender free and just existing in that space with her feels different. And it's not a thing that I could create in a monogamous relationship and just being able to relish and explore and delight in the freedom of gender explorations.
Yes. I think that I mean, I have not challenged my gender in the same ways yet. So I'm listening and like hearing all this expansion that it sounds like you're having between like the different dynamics that are created with the other people, right? And I think at least from what I know about relational cultural theory for my like psychology orientation is also that we are who we are because of our relationships, right? Like if you think about yourself as at the center and then like concentric circles creating Venn diagrams, right? Like who you are is like the overlapping circles of all of these relationships. So yeah, you step into one and you feel an aspect of your gender highlighted here. You step into another one, you feel it highlighted here and all this comes to make who you are at your core.
Like we're never actually separate from the relationships. That is true of everyone. Like as you said, that is just part of psychology insofar as the person I am at work, right? I'm not deep in the closet at work. You know, there's only so deep you can go when you have your nails painted, you'll wear some rather androgynous clothes and you explain that your spouse use the bath that I'm not closet, but I don't expose other pieces of myself.
And the person that I then am at work is different than the person that I am at the climbing gym that I go to because there there's none of that hangups. I can just let my queer flag, fly as high as I want. And so that's true for everyone. Yes. But when you have multiple intimate relationships, you can build such a repertoire of selves to explore and to inhabit and to just play that is hard to accept access otherwise.
Absolutely. I think the first dynamic you're talking about is this situation where at like at work, right? There's this reality that like if I bring out these aspects of myself, I might be discriminated against. I might lose connection with these people.
I might lose my job. These are very real things, right? So like in that relationship, it's like we cut off parts of ourselves to maintain relationships, right? And like with a power dynamic of work in a capitalistic game, like, you don't really get a choice here.
Like you're going to have to cut off parts of that. Like unfortunately, right? Like we should be better, but this is what it is, right? And like so in that, yes, it creates a different sense of self. And I think what is really, I love hearing about your story is though, like when we come into a space of like when you're fully safe to bring all parts of yourself, right? Because in this poly world, no one's asking you to compromise who you are. No one's asking you to fit into anything. You're just being yourself. Yes. And in that world where you feel fully safe, you recognize that like I see different parts of myself highlighted in all these different relationships because it's like, it's a created chemistry dynamic, like, right?
Like, and you're at the center of all those ones and that's you like in a safe place, the bad places we can talk about how that needs to change here. Wow. I think that is such a beautiful piece of the experience is just, I am too big of a person to fit in a single relationship. I'm a lot. I know I'm a lot and I love doing a lot.
That's a given. Okay. I don't mean it in a bad way, but I do mean it in a way of I want to experience the most I can out of life. I want to be a deeply, I'm sitting down and I'm reading a 2000 page genre fiction thing and I want to find somebody that I can just dive into that with. But I also want somebody that I can do powerlifting with and just Jim Brough out with.
I also want somebody that will go to the weird, like experimental theater black box, super niche, all of those. And if I found somebody that had all of those, how wonderful is that? But if I don't, why, why wouldn't I want to find ways to celebrate the fullness of who I am? Yes.
Absolutely. And even if you did find that person that had all those boxes, like, you're still restricting off more love. And especially at least one thing that's big for me is like, I'm still restricting off my sexual identity, right? Like say someone, he meets all those boxes, say they like, because I feel like that's where I've kind of been like someone who meets all those boxes, but like wants to know me.
I'm like, there's still so much of my sense of self and like sex dynamics that is experienced through different people. And like, he's very dumb. I want to be a dumb too.
Like, what the fuck's going to happen there? Are you going to let go of your identity to become a sub so that I can have that? Like, I think sometimes that's what monogamous is asking like couples to do, at least for me, right? Like you need to come into this other identity that might not feel authentic for you because I need to express my identity, which is multitudinal, right? So like, do I just like cut off that sense of self to be in our dynamic and make it fit here? Like then I'm losing a whole part of my sexual identity.
I think that that is a fascinating piece that I hadn't really considered before where there are pieces of ourselves that are defined relationally. Yes. Yes.
Cannot be experienced that cannot necessarily be experienced in a monogamous context. No, that's not quite right. Yes. I think I think you are unless they're willing to like change, be amorphous and like their senses. Like I really like I don't know how to process this like right like he's a dumb. I want to be a dumb too. Being a switch and what's off being a switch is yeah, I think it is there are certainly things where you my interest in weird fiction.
Uh huh. It is not defined by an other. Whereas being a don is defined in relation to someone else. Yeah, you're right. You're right. Exactly. Yep.
And so part of monogamy is that those pieces are necessarily differently expressed compared to I can be interested in genre fiction and you cannot and that doesn't change it. Yeah. Whereas. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sitting with you on that too. Yeah, exactly.
Foley. This is then my conundrum, right? Like what do you what do you do with that when you're you're part of self then is being cut off? I don't think you can I think and then you're asking the other person like lean into a sub sense of self and like maybe they just don't and like that's also okay. Right. Like I shouldn't be trying to force someone to enter into a whole new thing that doesn't feel safe for their sense of self. Like what? And I think that there is a piece where this is the polyamorous piece of me that says it is hard to imagine a partner requiring me to be a certain way to fulfill their needs. Now that's that's unfair in certain ways.
My partner is requiring me to be trustworthy. Yeah. Yeah.
If I'm not trustworthy, they're not going to be in a relationship with me. Right. Right.
They're going to require me to respect them. Yeah. And I think that's totally fine.
Right. But if I found out that I absolutely love tap dancing, cool. The idea that I could not explore that piece of myself because of a relationship feels like chopping off a limb to me. My experience of it is slightly different because to me it's not an act.
It might be violence, but it's also just almost inexplicable. Me liking tap has no bearing on S. Yeah. They don't have to come to a single concert. All I'm asking for is the space to do this thing. Right. And monogamy is saying you can't like, like I'm just the problem with this.
Right. After marinating in polyamory for a while, you start being like, Like, why the fuck should I listen? Everyone's boundaries on that are a little bit different as far as what you think your partners can be related to, can have connection to. You know, maybe my partners wouldn't be okay being in a relationship with me if I took a base jumping. Just because they're like, I cannot actually be in an intimate relationship with someone who is in constant mortal danger. Like, I just can't. Like, that's a boundary, but to longer your in polyamory, I feel like the more you're just like, why is it your concern?
Yes, I think that's another thing I've been coming up on. Like this space of polyamory where we're not asking anybody to compromise their sense of self. We're not being like, well, you have to fit into this because either this is the puzzle fees that you fit into of like right here.
And so you can't base jump anymore because that's too much stress for me, like, right? Like there's a little bit more like freedom where we don't ask people to try and fit into this role. Or at least that's me as a relationship anarchist.
Like, right? Well, I think that there is this dichotomy between compromise and compromising the self because a lot of polyamory is compromised and finding out what works and saying like, actually, hey, Thursday this week doesn't work because K has a meeting and so the R date not got moved to Tuesday. So can R, you know, like compromise is kind of the name of the game.
Yes, yes. But at no time is it, you're too, you're too much. You're too much of self. You, not what you do, not the things you do, not you are too much. You need to change.
That is a much bigger ask. And that's one that I feel like it happens through time in relationships. Like I am a different person because of my relationship with A on different person because of my relationship with K, I'm a different, but being shoved in those boxes, I do not relish that idea. No, and you shouldn't. Like we should never, and I love that you like, yeah, caveat of that, right? Like there is so much compromise in healthy good relationships, but like not a compromising of your sense of self and your self actualization, right?
Like we never look at someone else say, you can't do that, you know, like, yeah. I think self actualization is the key piece of it, is that in polyamory, I get to be me. And I get to, I get to be the full expression of myself. And that is a self that waxes and wanes and moves through my relationships and the world constantly trying new things, retreating from old things was really into this hobby. Now I'm not, it like polyamory gives me the space to be able to explore that. I think, to be fair, I think that there are ways that monogamy can do that. You are free to choose and you are choosing to just be in this one relationship.
You both sit there and say, hey, you know something? If the right person came about and everything and the stars aligned, I could see encompassing myself in this change. But right now this is where we are. And as a contingent series of events continuing through time, yeah, I can see, I can see being a like a solo poly or being in a single relationship while being polyamorous, but that still feels like polyamory, right?
Right, right, right, right. Well, cause like, I mean, my thought process through all this has been like, you could be a monogamous person that has deeply platonic relationships with other people. And when I mean like deeply, like relationship and our key deeply, right? And like, then at that point, what we're talking about is really not is like sex, right?
Like in a life commitments, right? Like, so really at the core of that is like, I can love my friends or whatever words I want to use to label them, but like I just can't fuck them, okay? So then at least for me, it comes back to like, even in a monogamy world of like, I'm gonna co-combine my relationship with you and live to the end of life and have all these deeply full relationships with other people. I think I could do that, like build really construct with one person and have full relationships with everyone else. But then I hit this point where I was like, but that means you can't have sex with other people.
And that's really what that means is like, are you fully satisfied sexually just with one person for the rest of your life? And I'm like, I don't know if I can be because of the earlier question of the like dom sub question of like cutting off sense of self. And I've experienced that in terms of like connecting with other people of different genders. Like I feel like when I connect sometimes with someone of a specific gender, it brings out a certain side of myself. When I connect it with a different gender, it brings out a different side of myself. And so then I feel like I'm cutting off parts of myself when you're asking me to just pick one. And then my sexual identity is like disconnected. And I really, I did not want to comment on what you're going through, because I do not have the full context.
Yeah, please do that. But I think that part of what I hear in that is, it is attempting to separate sex from all these other kinds of intimacy. It's saying that sex is fundamentally different than platonic and emotional. And I feel like that is either not true and eventually the emotional polyad, like emotional, you are sexually monogamous, but you're emotionally polyamorous. That eventually the emotional polyamorous actually won't be okay either. And that's, like actually, yeah, you're not having sex with that person, but you still hang out with them three nights a week. Yeah, it's too much for a monogamous relationship.
Yeah, I'm not having sex with them, but that's too much connection. So, it's either not true or if it is, then I just feel like sex is wonderful. Sex is great and it is incredibly passionate and valuable. But if that is the thing that you, that is the hard line for you, that's the only thing that matters, then I don't understand what you think friendships are. Like, if all you care about is whether someone else is fucking me, then you don't understand how full of a person I am and the ways that they have access to me, right? Yeah, in terms of love and like intimacy that you have with those people. If you're not threatened by the connections I have with people, then why are you- Yeah, threatened by sex. Why are you threatened by the sex?
Like, either it's not true and you're gonna be messed up later or it is true in which case, like something's weird now. Yeah. You're not actually taking the connections I have seriously enough. Right. Yeah, and some people do put blocks around that, right? That's where people have like the boundaries of emotional cheating within monogamy where they're like, you actually can't have any close friends of the opposite gender, right?
Cause it's all heteronormative in that lens, right? So like, then that's kind of where some people do go of like, you can't even emotionally, like forget the sex, you can't even emotionally connect with someone of the opposite gender. And to me that is a thing that I felt, right? Like that is a thing that I felt with beginning of my relationship with as was feeling like, I liked this person too much because they were my philosophy program and S is an amazing person and has grown to be able to have philosophical conversations but it is never their idea of a good time. And I felt like I was cheating on them because I just had these beautiful conversations. I had this beautiful connection, like I did have a crush on them, you know?
But it was that connection. So I just feel like you have a fluid bond with only one partner. Okay, you know, like conversations about safe sex talks about all of those things. I think that there are nuances in the discussion where you can with somebody else create boundaries about what feels good to you, what risk profiles, what kind of things, you know, actually this kind of thing, I only want to experience with this other person. I'm choosing that this is the only- Yes, and that's beautiful. In your example, you're saying like, the only Dom I want in my life is this person.
That's really wonderful. You're saying, this is what I want with this person. I think that, you know, building those up and cherishing those is really powerful and really important. Absolutely. But them being imposed instead of celebrated feels restrictive. Yeah.
There are definitely ways that you can view them as ways to celebrate and access yourself. I wanted to run a marathon for a while. Like that was a thing that I wanted to do and I started training for it and I like really hit it hard. And that meant like 12 mile runs on a Wednesday night and so I did nothing else.
My weightlifting, my swimming, my climbing, all of those cut out pretty hard because I had this one goal and I was trying to build towards this one thing. And so hey, actually, I want to build this relationship with someone and in order to really build this relationship that I weigh that I want to, the time that I want to sink in this person, I am not having these other kind of relationships. I'll have friendships. I'll have whatever.
But saying, ooh, I want this so hard that I'm not going to open myself up to those other things. That's beautiful. I can't imagine it for myself right now, but you know, I'm 36. We know that it's going to be like in 20 years. Oh, no, maybe I will find that place that I'm just like, no, this person, this is my marathon training. This is the thing that I am giving up all of it for. And that's gorgeous. But even, and yes, yes, I hear that. I hear that I am with you. And yes, like I am. And like this is why I happen. It was like, maybe I'm monogamous. Maybe I do want monogamy like shit. You know what I mean?
Like, I like that. And I think as a psychologist, I'm like, I could spend my whole life trying to truly be in relationship, good, good, good, close relationship and understand with one person. And they have all these other friends because like, that's really hard to do with just one person.
Honestly, the more I study psychology, I'm just like, holy fuck, you know. So like, I think I could connect with someone to that level. But then even in that paradigm, that still means that your sexual identity self is with that one person. Like, it's not like friends where I can just be like, oh, like, I have friends where I get my relational stuff with a mix of people, but I have one primary.
It's not the same way with sex. It's not like, oh, I have one primary, but I also kind of play and dabble on other sides of myself, my identity with other people. And I think at least this is my personal dialogue where it's like, you get kind of caught up in that where I like, I never really thought about who is my sexual self. That's why I think it's interesting when you're talking about gender, who's your gendered self and how we notice like it comes out through different fucking relationships and I can't just have one.
Once you start recognizing the ways that the self is manifested through those relationships, your sexual self, your gendered self, your personality self, I am a different person in these relationships. And you can do that. You can do that in monogamy. You can, you can still explore yourself, but it does put a block on where they can go and what they can feel like. You know, I think that there are definitely times where I had to realize that I was overextended, that I was in relationships that I could not care for myself or the relationships I had, and I had to make some pretty hard choices about what Right.
felt good and how I could care for myself and the people that I needed to. Right. And so, you know, I think that there are times where you can close up a little bit.
Sure. But to make a commitment that that's where you're going to be forever is, you know, I commitment means that it's going to continue forward right. But the thing is I commit to is I commit to respecting my partner. I commit to loving them.
Yeah. I cannot commit that I will always be the exact same person. I can commit that I will always respect them because I that is who I am. Yeah. But to expect me to be the same person day after day week after week year after year.
No, I mean, and you I think what we can commit to is that we're going to change right like that's almost like the one thing we can commit to. Sometimes I feel like I've seen too much of the matrix, do you know what I mean. I mean, it's possible, but what do you I just like I can't like I can't go back to these like like I know so much now about like, I will OK, at least, at least I know I keep coming back to sex like and and I hope you were equally enjoying the exploration of this conversation.
OK, absolutely. Well, because like there's a part of like so much of like, and fuck it, you know, this is right now this is exactly where I want to be in my life. OK, like this is exactly what I want to be doing in my life right now is this and talking about sex and relational identity. Like I've always wanted to be here.
So thank you for being in this space with me. There's just never been like a lot of conversation about who you are as a sexual being right like this has been controlled so much, at least, especially as a woman over in my gender identity has been so much of like it's a partner dynamic it is this it is that versus like, who am I sexually and what am I sexually and that realizing that does come out in different people like that's a conversation that I've never even pondered of like, am I cutting off my like my sense of identity by only being having sex with one person. I think it's beyond that even because the idea of a sexual self is in some sense. I don't want to say illusory but it's the self is a combination of other things because the sexual self that you are with one person today is not the sexual person you will be with that person in three years.
Yeah, yeah, sure. Like, you're going to find out that actually both of you are into some things that you did not know you're into actually find out that actually this thing that you thought you're both into only one of you are into and the other one kind of like, what's up with it and just like that dies out of your relationship, you know, like so that sexual self evolves over time. Right. But then it's also through polyamorous relationships you start realizing that it doesn't just evolve over time it evolves in relationships and dynamics. You grow in relationships. And so the person you are in a given relationship is going to be different in a different relationship it just right. Right. And I guess my thing about the matrix then is like, so my sister is Mormon right.
She never had sex with anyone other than her person, you know her husband. Yeah. And she's happy and I'm all happy for her like life in the world that she's living in this is existential void right. And the meaning that she's found in the world, but like she hasn't questioned all of these things expanded the potential of like even the world of having sex with multiple people to have all that and like, in that way I'm like, oh shit like I kind of open up so much of the matrix that like I can't go back to that world of like one person forever kind of energy because I've questioned so much and learned so much about exactly what we're talking about of how you're expanded through relationships. And I'm like, oh shit like I could never go back to being in the matrix and actually like be as satisfied because I've expanded too much here.
I think not a bad thing just saying I feel like I've grown too much. That is super true. I think the piece that I always struggle with is, you know, the matrix the allegory of the cave the whole thing. Yeah, the aligarity of shit. Yeah, you realize that these things are not real.
Yeah, you find the truth reality, all of those things. Well, I don't. There's a piece of me that's like, I was incredibly happy when I was when I thought I was syshet monogamous I thought I was I didn't think I was happy I was I exactly so much you are happy. And I don't want to say that the person I am now the happiness I have now is better because I exactly I don't know if I am, but I can't say I can't go back to that one. I don't I'm not saying this one's better.
I'm not saying the person I am now is better than the person I was then I like this person more because I grew into this person, regardless of it's better regardless of it's bigger regardless of it's more enlightened whatever things we sometimes fall into at the very least I can't go back. Exactly. Yes.
Yes, it's not a judgment right like my sister is living a beautiful life you were happy she's happy like. Yeah, and right and I think it's very important of not using it being like a judgment of like somehow we know more because like we don't you know what I mean like we don't we have no nothing more about what it is to be in this existential void. I don't know that's that's why I was trying to find another metaphor for it because like the allegory of the cave has like such like, you know, negative connotations where it's like you're still in the dark if you're down there right so then it's like we don't want to say that. That's right but I guess the major because also negative because it's like then you're living in a fake world. I don't know what kind of metaphor it is that like to use of like once you've expanded that once I've stretched this far I can no longer go back to like this then. Yeah, because all of our metaphors are all like a hermit crab out growing it show. Yeah, which is negative. It like all of those things are saying that it's growth and it is growth, but real talk, your sister I imagine has grown in her love for her husband she has learned how to celebrate that how how to exist so deeply and so beautifully in that relationship.
And to say that we all grow some every day, we grow in a different way. Yeah, but I don't think that she would want to go back to the, I hope to the marriage that she had when she just was a newlywed like I hope she says I couldn't. I could not go back to that to like to. Yeah.
Right like, she can't go back to that hers has been more of a straight line blossoming yours has winded and wound its way around. Yeah, what a storm. Okay. Gah Lee knows I have gone some places.
Woo. It is important to say that your growth is, as long as everyone's happy, like happy healthy and all growth is beautiful and something to celebrate right. And it's not something that you can prune back without some real serious trauma. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. So maybe just different paradigms. That's kind of a word I've been throwing it around of like, you see the world how you connect the meaning you make of it in a radically different way just like when someone's religious like right like, that's a different paradigm of how you exist in the world right and it's hard to ask someone who's like in a religious setting to just be agnostic like, and once I've gone to the paradigm of polyamory it's really hard for me to go back to a paradigm of like monogamy. Well, and I think it is especially hard real talk. The clue is in the way that you phrase it.
It's not. I'm stepping into monogamy. I'm stepping forward into this new back. If you said I am so excited to explore this new piece of my life I am so excited to see what it's like to build a relationship with the knowledge and skills that I have gained like oh my God, being this aware this experienced this in touch with who I am and bringing this full self this enlightened fucking being into a single relationship how how fucking beautiful is that but that's not what you feel right because the sex I'm not I'm not fucking kidding like it's real like I am so real about this of like I Because I guess I'm like I'm pushing because I'm like yeah That's exactly where I was like in this lat these last couple of like processing of me was like I'm happy to be in a monogamous Relationship I've done all this processing. I study relationships for fuck's sake right like I'm ready to do this But like that still doesn't answer the question of your sexual identity like oh I think that that then points to the fact that it still feels like Because as I was saying you're like how wonderful to bring this full self into this relationship Yeah, it sounds like you don't feel like there is space for the full self like It sounds like you feel like you're having to renounce part of who you are and that Not I Just didn't know this was a part of who I was do you know what I mean like I didn't know I needed this I didn't even know Until I had sex with other people that there was other sides of me to even explore Yeah, yeah Seeing the ways that you need that freedom the ways that that freedom feels like an intrinsic part of who you are yeah that's the thing that you worked really hard to build you worked really hard to gain and Yo when I talk about realizing I'm polyamorous is liberatory I I don't think I could give up that part I could I could have that take different shapes I could have that look different ways I could make space for that in so many it could look so many different ways depending on where but I can't give that up I can't I cannot imagine Losing that piece of myself Yes Yes, and that is what I have been saying to myself too of like no relationship is worth losing yourself If you lose yourself, then you're not in a relationship someone else. Yeah, yeah, exactly Yes, because exactly what you're saying of like cutting off those sides of yourself and yeah, right when you were saying it to me I was like are you saying it to me? Are you saying it to yourself?
You know? I'm sure a lot of this is all like that same like yeah, you know I think that that is the liberation is like connecting to this deep expansive part of yourself and knowing that like I Have to stay here because this is where I feel the most alive This is where I feel the most connected to the world connected to other people even what you said at the beginning of this conversation Right connected to the fat cat. I see you Did you see her meowing in the bed? Oh, I heard her meowing and I celebrate her voice as an independent agent I celebrate you too, baby You're connected to the possibilities of what a relationship could be in the world, right? Like that's what you're cutting off.
That's huge, you know Well, and let's be frank. You are always cutting off some possibilities, right? Like I cut off the possibility of moving to Singapore and Being an investment banker. I have no skills for that. I have no interest in that and you know I also cut off the opportunities to have certain relationships There's certain kind of relationships that I'm just not interested in and not gonna pursue and not gonna have right and so It is not that polyamory says I can do everything right it says I can but I'm not going to I'm going to choose Which one of the buffet? In front of me Kind of relationship person I can choose I can and I don't choose all of them because that's not how it works That will give you a tummy ache and it will cost a ton when they would do it by the pound like you know Shit, yeah, I love this moment. I'm rolling.
I'm rolling. Yeah, you cannot do it. You cannot you have to choose Yep, but the thing is when somebody says ooh, actually I see you took that you can't have that What do you mean?
I can't what do you mean? I can't have that. Yeah a respectful way is you can't have that and sit at the table with me I'm super sorry like blue cheese Blue cheese, I love but like somebody says yo blue cheese smells like feet I don't want to the table and I'm eating so if you get that you don't sit at my table.
Hey Mm-hmm. If it sounds like that's kind of where you're at is this person saying you can't sit at the table with blue cheese with me Yeah, and You know it comes down to saying You know even if right now, I don't want blue cheese because I've got like I've got a steak Yeah But you're telling me that if I want to sit with you even in the future I care Yeah Yeah And I think this is the you don't have to compromise in your identity here, right? I think that's where it comes back to because like yeah We did clarify about like you do make compromises, but it's like it's that freedom and expansiveness to be like Yeah, if you want to eat blue cheese go it's okay.
Just eat at a different table We'll hang out after for dessert like that's great, you know, like it's like okay cool Yeah, that freedom of just no you could be who you want to be you don't do them with me or you need like you know But I relish the fact if you want to sit with me for this part awesome. I really man we share soup like pros love it But man, oh man saying that you are not allowed to sit somewhere else You're not allowed to take this thing that that doesn't really Once you can pick whatever you want from the buffet Yeah, yeah Yep, yep and writing my dissertation part of like what I always try and I mean part of like a lot of it was like Oh, like what is monogamy and defining the boundaries of that right and like it's hard to find a definition of monogamy because it can be so Expansive to some people and likes like more restrictive to other people some people call like emotional cheating, right? Some other people are a little bit more expressive with that But like addicts core then there's always like no real definition of what monogamy is because it's kind of so fluid depending on what you Call monogamy so like my monogamy is better understood as a a Concept of what you can't do with other people And that definition when I found that hit me like a brick where it's like yeah, it's not about what we do together It's what you can't do with other people and that's the best way to kind of understand monogamy that is Encompassing enough to actually cover all the ways monogamy is used in our culture. So it's more yeah, what you can't do with other people that is such a simple and Beautiful but also deeply troubling definition just because My partners cannot do intravenous drugs with Unclean needles with other people like you know, I do have my boundaries except if they do that would not necessarily mean they can't it Just means that my relationship with them visa v bodily fluids will change right recognizing just the breadth of what that many means in monogamy and The loss of agency.
Yep, exactly. That's what I wrote about to in my dissertation about how like relationship anarchy specifically right is like a relational autonomy like it comes down to that rather than like Restricting like what you can do with other people like part of it is you have the autonomy To enact these things right obviously again, like we said the web, right? Like you're in a web You have to be very conscious because you have all these pieces that you're trying to build you have this beautiful garden, right? It needs water and needs time energy But in that you still have the freedom to say I want to do this Can we make this work in our world somehow and still maintain my connection? and if a one-time encounter of whatever level of intimacy that is like you feel full Freedom to go to whatever that capacity is and that like autonomy Man when I think about losing that autonomy like it literally feels like this is heavy Right, but like when I think about my sexual assault Like it feels like that level of like pinning down relationally of like no like you cannot Do this with other people and like I feel relationally pinned like oh my god well, and I think that conversation of You know, I'm in a relationship with this person and I am not okay with him doing this And so then we navigate that together, you know, I'm not okay with being in a relationship What's the person that does this you want to do this? How do we how do we make it work?
What what compromises how do we approach this and it's that it is two Autonomous individuals having a conversation about how to proceed Monogamy feels like it closes down that conversation because It just says no like that's just not how that works despite the fact that everyone decides what monogamy looks like as you said right not me a broad definition right, but very Heuristic the paradigm you view it through is that there is a right way and a wrong way and Maybe you change it a little bit, but there is there's a right way for this relationship to work There is no right way for my relationship to s with s to look like Yep, yep. Yep. Yep. This is why I like relationship anarchy because like you can be a monogamous relationship Anarchist I've talked about this on the podcast So, you know, but like that's a potential though the real key of that is that you are not following Inherent levels of how to exist in that relationship You're creating it together and so if it feels good to be like yes It that sexual fidelity is something I want to practice then like hell. Yeah, that's all great for you But like it's coming down to that like relational piece of like we're choosing to co-construct this together This is what we want And I think for you My limited time with you I can see you having a conversation about What sexual fidelity would look like in a polyamorous relationship in a yeah anarchy framework of just like oh This is really hard for me, but it's a conversation. I'm willing to at least entertain But it is hard for me to pin down what's the difference between relationship anarchy with sexual fidelity and monogamy because there is a huge difference between those from my perspective.
But I think a lot of people don't don't conceptualize what that difference is. Right, right, right. Because I think one of the beautiful thing is the show has changed me, right? Like, I've connected with some people who are in dynamics where they have like one main partner, but they do kink play with other people that doesn't have fluid exchange. Okay, like that's a monogamous world you could I could maybe entertain like you were saying of having that conversation, right? Of like, what does it look like to have sexual fidelity with also like, you know, a little bit more of other pieces that allow for that, right? You know, and like, so yeah, 100%, I think it's possible and I love getting to hear other paradigms of how people live in this world just to like show examples of like what we can do to live in these worlds with different ways.
I don't know. I just feel like recognizing how those feel different and what makes them different to someone that's aware of it to someone that's lived with that freedom to someone that's lived with that autonomy. That is a different mindset.
Yep. And this is what I haven't been okay. I'm okay. Like I'm functioning right but like in like in terms of relational sense of self, like I'm I'm crying a lot. Yeah, because you've built a thing you've built a thing that matters to you. The thing that gives you life and now you're kind of just sitting on the edge, kind of right. Seeing you know enough, you've lived enough to see you what happens if you take that leap and that's a really daunting place to be.
It's trusting the web though. Your partner right like that's the other piece that you come back to. So you dive in right because and that's kind of this is why I said I have this kind of where I'm at right and like I appreciate you holding all this space of having this conversation. I don't really know what the podcast is ever going to look like but sometimes I think it's beautiful when I come in and just be a messy human because I have to think that there has to be other people who are like in that same space of like trying to do this and equally being confused and scared and like if I can just be vulnerable at least like what I'm going through maybe I'll save someone else the same like journey of this whole psychological dilemma that I currently sit in.
Okay, you are simultaneously too optimistic and not optimistic enough just and let me explain why let me explain why. I'm listening. Because no one will ever be in your situation again. You are an utterly unique human and while there are pieces of your story that other people can glean and say oh so that's how Nicole thought about X, Y and Z. Oh, that's what somebody that is in touch with this thinks through.
Cool. The odds are against a person that has written a dissertation on relationship anarchy while also doing this exploration. You know I don't want to say you're a niche audience if that's what you're pitching towards.
I think our past members are going to be pretty low. Just as a note. But so no I don't think that like necessarily you're going to save someone that but here's the thing.
This is modeling how do we talk about this how do we understand this how do we how do we process hard icky complicated fucked up shit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that that is universally valuable. You know maybe somebody does lift your lived story carte blanche like a whole cloth love that perfect good for them that in so delightfully easy I'm happy for them. Yeah. But instead people get to see what does it look like when you find yourself torn what does it look like when you find yourself not loving any way out they will be in a spot where they're torn they will be in a spot where their relationship as is at a crossroads. Yeah.
Everyone is unique and no one's going to have that same thing but they will connect at that moment at least what I heard of you said of like like of what it feels like to be low and what it feels like to be at least for me what I've been talking about it has been like off gravity like just feeling like my gravity is off feeling like something is so like just not right in my sense of being you know. Yeah. Yeah. And in some ways I'm feeling the sense of like oh Nicole you fucked up like the podcast you're supposed to be holding space for Chris and you're supposed to be asking about Yeah. I know I don't put any rules on the show so I don't think it should be right but like I feel that moment right now so I just I guess I should be saying thank you for holding space for me and thank you for sitting in this dilemma with me. I would first of all want to say if I had been thinking about this as a podcast the entire time about us as like sages doling out wisdom and you interviewing me to glean some type of insight into the human condition.
I would have been utterly terrified. Not my jam. Yeah.
Instead of having the freedom to just talk and bring who I am into the space for us to just kind of see what emerges is kind of kind of what I want out of life right. And let me tell you it was good for me. I don't know how you feel but I feel really good. I needed this you know.
This is exactly what I was looking to get out of it so. Good. Good. Good. Good. Good. And it was for me too and I think that's also and yeah we're modeling good relationships good connections holding space having fun.
Yeah. I always like to like hold a little bit of space at the end in case there was something that maybe you were just like we never hit on this that you wanted to talk about I know we hit on a lot so but in case there is anything that you were just like damn we didn't talk about it and I'm not going to sleep tonight. No I can talk a lot if you haven't noticed so there's there's always more I can talk about. I feel like I was able to press the fullness of my being the pieces of my story and I felt like I brought my authentic self to the video and let it all out so. You so did you so did and I think that's why it connected with me so much and resonated with me and moved me in so many ways because I could feel how true these things are to your being you know and your experience in this world. Recognizing the ways that polyamory allows me to be my full self is just such an earth shattering revelation that I have never been the same after and so being able to sit in a space with somebody else who has been in the emotional fucking minds of figuring the thing out. No that's that's fucking great. That's exactly what it is that expansion of yourself. Yeah, it hits it hits and I this is going to be one of those like some of those moments for the universe to shows up with what you needed at the right time and so I say thank you thank you.
Yeah, like that was the last class you were teaching and everything else I know pretty wild stuff. Yes, yes, absolutely it always it always happens right that's what I keep like all that fear of trusting I'm always like the universe continues to somehow show up the more I just like follow the things that naturally bring me life so I'm like okay. Okay, I'm listening and listening. Well then, to wrap up our time together, there's always one question that I ask everyone on the podcast. And that is what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal. Loving people. It is natural to see other people and to welcome them into your heart. And we build it up and we're scared of it. It's normal.
It's natural to let people in. And I feel like the more that you practice that the easier it is I feel like the more love I give the like it starts to grow in that way. You start recognizing it's not just the thing you do with one person it's not just a thing you do with your parents it's not that love is love can look like so many different things it can. It's loving when I tell my students that they're not allowed to throw things and hurt people that's loving. It's loving when I connect with a friend after I know they had a hard day. All of those are connection. All of those are relationship. And that's kind of insofar as I've ever found a meaning of life. That's the one I give a shit about.
I got some post it now I'm looking for somewhere that says God is love. Yeah. I was like if there ever it really is some sort of metaphysical anything it's it to me it's that exactly what you said of like seeing the love and all of the relationships and trying to connect more to that and then feeling that purpose of like connection through that love I mean.
That's what matters to me. I have had such a great time and I really enjoyed all of your philosophical brain like seriously that is the wavelength of me so like yes this has been amazing so thank you so much. Thank you so much for opening this space for me. If you enjoyed today's episode then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast. And if you're a part of the anarchist community then follow us on Instagram or nominate a guest for the show by sending in a letter to modern anarchy podcast at gmail.com. Otherwise I'll see you next week.