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90. How About Swinging Pegging, Prostate Orgasms, and the Bisexual Man with Cooper Beckett

Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast featuring real conversations with conscious objectors to the status quo.


I'm your host, Nicole. I tried to keep her hiding all strong hope. I tried to keep her quiet, but she's screaming outside of me. I tried to keep her hiding all shut up.


I tried to keep her quiet, but she's a wild, wild woman. Hello, hello, dear listener. On today's episode, we have sex educator and writer, Cooper Beckett. Join us for a conversation all about transformative sexual experiences. Together, we talk about the spectrum of non-monogamy, sitting with the scary questions, and having the license to be ourselves. Y'all, that last piece is so key for everything that I am hoping to do with this podcast, and I hope all of y'all feel is that you have the license to be yourself. I want you to know that there are multiple ways to do relationships, and that you get to choose what relationship works for you and the people in your world and the life that you want to craft. And I think part of that informed consent of knowing the different types of ways to exist in relationship with other people, that world is created through having conversations like the one that Cooper and I have, like all these conversations that we are having together on this podcast, opening up to share the parts of ourselves that are often shamed, and there can be a lot of negative reactions from society. So having this container where we can talk about them for the beautiful practices that they are, right? Kink, non-monogamy, enjoying things like pegging, all these things are wrapped up so deeply in the social taboo of talking about sex and relationships, that there's just not enough conversation out there to realize there are multiple ways to be yourself and to be in connection with other people.


So wherever you're at on that spectrum of monogamy to non-monogamy to pegging to no pegging, you know what, you're welcome here and you have home in this community. So I hope all of y'all enjoy Cooper's dynamic conversation with me today. He was a blast to have on the podcast and is so open, so vulnerable about all the pleasure that he has experienced in his life and it's conversations like these that are going to change the paradigm.


So y'all, tune in. So is there anything when you thought about coming onto the podcast that you were like, hmm, I really want to talk about this today? My main, you know, even even with the scope of the book, my main thrust conversation is about as men not being afraid to explore things that we don't see as manly.


Yeah. Literally, I had some of my girlfriends over earlier and I was like, I'm recording with someone with a book on pegging and I was like, we could talk about how men are afraid to explore things. And that might be a good avenue.


So when you said that, I was like, this is exactly what I was thinking was going to happen. I mean, I've been I've been a by slash queer guy in the swinger scene since 2008. So I know how difficult the swinger scene can be when it comes to any by exploration and they include pegging in that by exploration because, you know, but they're for gay guys.


Hmm. Yeah, but that's my main thing is that, you know, you can go to sleep after sucking a cock and not be gay in the morning. It's all in what you want to do again and again and again and again. So yeah, that's that's my my niche. And I would think that this might be something that you have personal experience with. Yeah, all of our stuff is right. We're obviously yeah.


So as a non professional and a non lettered graduate, you know, I am 100 % speaking from experience. Oh, man, I am hoping to change that pair and I'm too. Right. Like the lettered shit, like I'm working on trying to do that as well. So I'm continue to take inspiration from like people like you. So thank you. That's awesome. Yeah.


Would you be willing like wherever that journey starts for you? Oh, yeah, I can talk about all. Yeah.


Yeah, I'm ready. Oh, are we recording? Oh, oh, look at you. I know it's all part of the whole thing. Wow. Okay.


So I don't have to save things for later. Yeah, I was in a very white bread suburban marriage. I got married very early to a woman I met in high school. No, a woman I met just after high school.


Wow. She'd never been with anyone else. I'd been with one other person and we played out the traditional suburban thing. You know, we dated for a while. We graduated college. We got married. But then we didn't learn kids. So that kind of changes the dynamic, you know, that that's the first spot where we slipped off the rails, you know, the train stopped going down the tracks. And about seven years into our marriage, you know, that number seven, that it's not just a myth, the seven year itch is real.


Yeah. We both were talking to our therapists about wanting to fuck other people. And our therapist, we had the same therapist and I'm still pissed that she didn't say more than you should talk to each other.


You know, you, you, I feel like, I feel like she could have broken vertical and said, by the way, you two are saying the exact same thing to me. But anyway, we thought about it and, you know, we, what do you do when you want to fuck other people? You get divorced or you cheat, right?


Those are the only options. So we talked about getting divorced and we were having, you know, conversations about it. And it was just like, well, we don't want to get divorced. Like this is really it. You know, we just don't have a good sex life and we want to fuck other people.


And a friend, I was also a studio photographer at the time and I had a portrait studio and was doing a lot of art nude photography and a friend of mine who saw that art nude photography casually asked me one point, so are you in the lifestyle? And I had no idea what that meant. And, and so I asked for clarification. She said, you know, a swinger. And I was like, wait a minute, there are still swingers?


That's still a thing. And so fast forward about a month or two and we're having this conversation about getting divorced and I remember this, there are still swingers. And so I do do a little Googling and I find this video that was made by a, by a, you know, a couple who ran from Minnesota called, it was like your friendly neighborhood swinger. It was like a 1950 self-help video about how to get, how to become a swinger. And it just, it was the friendliest and silliest little thing.


And immediately it didn't seem like a scary thing anymore. And so my, she is now my ex-wife and I can talk about that, but it wasn't because of non-monogamy. So she and I are out to dinner. We're again talking about the divorce thing. And I said, well, we could always try swinging. You know, people say that you swing, you might get divorced, but if we're already talking about divorce, what is the worst that could happen here? Yeah, we get divorced. And we joined a website and within a week, we were kind of bullied into a date by a couple who who were like, they recognized our hesitance are, uh, yeah, maybe someday, you know, like a lot of newbies will do just like, yeah, sure.


Some point it's like, no, no, we're going to go out this weekend. So I, oh, okay. Okay. We can go out this weekend.


Sure. So within a week, we were doing what's called soft swap, which is oral with other people. And, uh, my ex had her first moments with a woman, which was enormous for her. And I feel like that changed her 100%. Like she became a literal different person.


Obviously not a literal different person. But over that first month, we started meeting this little group of people that turned out to be just really warm and open people. And, you know, we were both in our early thirties and we were exploring the way we never did in college or high school.


school. And it gave our marriage two and a half more years than it would have had without it. And, you know, ultimately, the reason we got divorced was the same reason we were thinking, you know, we always had, you know, the bullshit, the money discussions, the work, the time, it turns out swinging will only distract you for so long.


Yeah, the stuff that was already there. So we got divorced, it was fine. And, you know, since then, I was sort of starting to explore my bisexuality as I went in there, because I did see how dramatically it affected her, her explanation. And I had had moments like in high school, where I thought I was gay, because I was interested in not really guys, but I was interested in cock.


Yeah. And, you know, the only reason you'd be interested in cock is because you're gay, of course, you know, so that's that's the that's the loop that was playing in my head. But it was really hard to find people who were interested in that in swinging. In fact, our first couple, when I put by Curious and our profile said, you probably not gonna want to put that on there.


You will limit the people who will respond to you. I was like, Oh, I see, I see what we're doing here. Interesting. Expanded to a point, but not fully.


Exactly. So over the years, you know, I had a podcast with some friends called Life on the Swingset, and we started out as a swinging podcast. And then we sort of graduated into talking about poly and other sorts of non monogamy, as we all graduated into other types of non monogamy. So like, if you asked, asked me right now, what I define myself as, I would say I'm non monogamous. If you want more information, I'm sometimes a swinger, I'm sometimes poly, usually I sit right in the middle. But I am also the opinion that swinging and poly are very, very close to being the same thing.


Yeah, that's the difference. Well, I mean, ultimately, if you want to if you want to talk about the spectrum of non monogamy, just like there's a spectrum of gender, over on this side, there's they're swinging like pure bread swinging, which is we don't know names, we don't give a shit, we hook up at parties, and that's it. That's that's capital S swinging. And over here, you have, you know, capital P poly, which can be, what do they call it when it's poly, but it's a closed poly kitchen table sort of. I think like closed poly where we're dating, we're dating two other people and that's it. And but ultimately, when I started meeting more and more people in SR podcast grew, we would go to conventions and we would just talk to, you know, hundreds and hundreds of people in non monogamy. I didn't know any swingers who weren't developing at least strong deep friendships with people. And what is that if not a form of love? And I didn't know any poly people who weren't having casual sex.


And what is that if not swinging? So ultimately, I think we're all very close to the middle of this spectrum. And I really like the fact that when I meet someone, I don't have to say to them, I'm looking to fuck people and that's it. Or I'm looking to develop a long term relationship. And that's it, you know, I like to be able to get to know people and then we can decide together where they belong in my life.


And that has worked really well for me over the years, which, you know, I know a lot of guys have a lot of trouble in poly because let's just say the the apps aren't as kind to gentlemen as they are the ladies just like gentlemen generally aren't as kind to ladies. Yeah, not to reinforce the gender binary. Right, right. No, but it's a different experience. It's totally different. Because there's there's there's a whole range of social conditioning, right? When you see the polyamorous cis man, it's someone who just wants to fuck you is looking to fuck multiple people doesn't want any you know, there's like a whole narrative that is associated with what toxic masculinity can be. Exactly. Yeah.


And there are people in the poly community who just reinforce that like the harem builders and one penis policy people who are like, you can fuck me and only other women. Yeah, exactly. Because somehow that's okay.


Yeah, what the fuck? It's because they don't see women as as legitimate people. That's the only reason to say something like you can you can have sex with one man, me, and women, because women would never take you away from me because they're not people. Yeah, there's so much inherent toxicity in you know, we talk about toxic masculinity, like it's a it's an abstract, but it's it's insidious. And it's insidious in people who don't even recognize that it's it's there. And that's the real danger of it all. Well, and I think I experience it.


I think the second I see a man sometimes who expresses a lot of emotions and is very present and touch with that the second that my my dick gets soft, you know, didn't mean like, like, and then I have to that's a big feed for a dildo. Yeah, exactly. Right. And so then yeah, so then it's like, what's that? Right? Like, I think I think some of it, like, at least for me, it's like, as I even though I process all this, this is what I study.


This is what I do. Like, that narrative is so in our collective consciousness. Yes, as how we exist in this world that you're challenging a lot to try and think out of that. Like it's definitely a narrative I'm myself still swimming in this water, we're all swimming in this water. Yeah. Can I pause for one moment? I realize I kind of specifically gendered you and we didn't have that conversation. Yes, yes.


And I appreciate that. Are you are you she? She her?


Yes, this woman. Thank you. Okay, okay. Is it okay if I keep that on the podcast?


recording? Yeah, okay. I mean, if you if you think it's valuable, go ahead. I do.


I think it is because I think it's valuable because it teaches how to what do we do in those situations? You're right happens, right? Because like, I have that all the time to where I do that. And then you're like, fuck, and then you're like, yeah, you make a very good point till the end of the conversation or later, right?


So I appreciate I often will do that. Like after you know, I'll be sitting thinking about a conversation. Hey, I'm sorry, I fucked up. Yeah, compared to like, Oh, can we just pause for a second and acknowledge that and then the connections reestablished like, I saw you see me, we've re we've mended whatever that was and yeah, exactly, right. Exactly.


Yeah. So like, but yeah, this narrative is so thick. And I think like, to anyone listening who's thinking like, Oh, it's not me.


It's like, what? And it's not, you know, a lot of people will will try to we'll see it as a personal failing and try to say, Oh, it's not me. I'm not like that. It's like, Yeah, you are, but it's not your fault.


Right. You know, the reason we feel this way is because, you know, I like I rewatched the Bill and Ted movies last year, because the new one came out and I was really excited about the new one. I love the old ones. I had forgotten there are two fag jokes in it, one in each of the first two movies. And it is 100 % a product of its time, where two men would hug each other because they do genuinely love each other. But it's it's like the no homo of the era.


And it's, it sometimes takes me out, you know, like I can, I can overlook things that I see as products of the of the time. But that's what we grew up with. That's what we were fed. And we were fed that from every single available source. You know, even even when we consider that probably current men have no problem crying more so than like, you know, our parents and our grandparents, right?


But at the same time, we're still given that I mean, the here's here's the biggest one here, you know, like I'm on Reddit, and I'm constantly seeing this question. My boyfriend got soft while we were having sex. What did I do wrong? And I'm hurt by it. And you can bet that guy is also hurt by the fact that he went soft during sex. You know, and I'm someone who is neurodivergent.


So I have, I take a whole shitload of mind meds. And you know what? That fucks with my dick. And so like when I when I when I'm having that hook up conversation with people, I tell them, look, my dick is unpredictable. It doesn't mean it won't get hard and stay hard. But I just want to let you know that it has nothing to do with you. And I'm still going to enjoy it being played with the same thing with ejaculation for me.


It's just unpredictable. The reason it doesn't bother me is because my emotionally I'm in the best place I've ever been. I've found the medication combo that works for me. And if my only thing to give up is a predictable erection, you know, I can take a dick pill every once in a while and I'll be just fine. Or I can realize that there are a lot of people who enjoy playing with soft dick. There's a lot of I've met so many women who like to suck on a soft cock and feel it get hard.


And that's just not something that you know, you're usually hard before that starts, you know, I feel really bad for myself in the past. That's a weird way of saying it. No, I hear you. I feel really bad for people who are way in their head and I understand the only way I was able to get here is through long evolution and pain. You know, the way I got out of my head about this stuff is the same way I got out of my head about your hot button terms like like rape culture used to freak me out. Until I actively processed it with other people and worked on my thought thinking of it and, you know, got woke to use the phrase that irritates the hell out of me.


But that's what it takes. And most people don't have the time for self reflection like that, you know, they have too many other things in there and the privilege of not having to reflect on yourself. And so I got to recognize my space in a way that I know a lot of people don't. And I call myself queer in general. But when I talk to groups, when I go to conferences, I refer to myself as a bisexual man, because a bisexual man is rare.


An out bisexual man is an important figure. And it's because, you know, as a society, let's just say around the time wild things came out. We all agreed that women kissing and fucking women was really fucking hot.


And I think we all agree that as a whole society. We never got there with guys. And because of that, and because of like the Swinger community, assuming all women are bi, and you better keep your bi guy stuff behind closed doors. It hasn't given guys the opportunity, because there's so much other stuff that comes with it, you know, there are if you if you take it up the ass, you're you may as well be gay or even in the gay community, telling me as a bi guy. Oh, you'll be gay in a few years.


Don't worry. You're just you're just exploratory sexual. Exactly. And I'm not like, I talked to Dan Savage about that. And he's like, you know, if you if you like eating pussy, you're not going to be gay in a few years. It's like, you know what, I do like eating pussy.


Exactly. And it doesn't take away from me enjoying sucking cock, you know, it's too. And I've doubled the amount of people I can fuck, which is amazing. You know, it's great.


Yeah, yeah. I feel like I'm filibustering you. No, I mean, I feel like I'm holding a container for a very important conversation. I think what you said is so spot on that there is not a lot of space for a bisexual man, because exactly what you were saying, like, it's funny, you're not filibustering because I'm thinking the same things you're saying, and they're coming out of your mouth and I'm like, yes, yes, keep going. Because yes, like, that's exactly what I was thinking was like, it's the no, you just don't really know that you're actually gay. Yeah, that's exactly what came to my head when you said that. And it's awful that that's a thing because it and you know, by women have the same shit coming from lesbians.


It's just a little different. You're not really in the girls. So really, the lesbian community is pushing by girls back to straight. Yeah, gay community is pushing by guys to gay.


And no one's really acknowledging the fact that there is another lane. Yeah. Yeah, of liking all of it. Yeah. Mm hmm.


Mm hmm. And I feel like, you know, I've this this is the one thing that has gotten me in trouble in the swinger community is I'm here. Well, I point out the fact that the reason straight men are afraid of by man is because they think by men will do the same things that they have been trained to do to women to get them to have sex. And what what has the world told us you have to do with a woman to get her to have sex.


Keep asking, be persistent, change that no to a yes. Right. And what would the most terrifying thing be to a straight man, a guy who could do that to them. Mm hmm. So it's 100 % that toxic masculine mindset. And as a by man, I don't just suddenly forget how consent works.


You know, the last thing I want to do is grab a cock that won't appreciate my hand on it. Right. Right. Exactly.


Why, why would I want to it's like I didn't suddenly just become octopus man. And it's, it's really disappointing. When I encounter that type of, I mean, it is homophobia, it's biphobia, all the right, right, right. And it's, I mean, it's, it's as bad as when there are straight women in non monogamy who are kind of pushed into being by, you know, they don't deserve to have to do anything they don't want to do. So it's, it's, I think the biggest lesson that we've learned about gender needs to be applied to sexuality, and needs to be applied to swinging is that the vastness of this spectrum is what makes it amazing. And the fact that we are all on it, like literally everybody is somewhere on this spectrum. That's what unites us.


Mm hmm. You know, and I always tell people it's like, we can fight each other if we want to. But the thing is they, the others hate us, all of us. And they're louder, and they're more powerful than we are. Yeah.


Therefore, they will pick us off one by one, one group by one group. And that's why I like I yell at the swinger community like you cannot ignore what's happening to the trans community. Yeah. Cannot ignore what's happening to any marginalized community.


Black, indigenous people of color. Yeah. Because we are all the targets of the mainstream. Yep. And they want nothing more than to get rid of us. Mm hmm. And the only way we can defend ourselves completely is if we all defend ourselves. Right. Right. Together. And the swinger community has one thing that none of the other communities have. The closet.


Mm hmm. Swingers don't ever need to reveal themselves. Right. Except other swingers.


You know, Polly people, if you're dating someone, you want to introduce them to your family. True. It's true. But as a swinger, you see it, this is a sexual trans, transaction.


You know, my parents don't need to know about my sexual transactions. Yeah. Honestly, really should they? That's not important.


But because of that, it allows the mainstream swinger community to hide in a way that none of us others can. Yeah. Yeah. I'm thinking about, you know, the app field, I'm sure. Mm hmm. Yeah. I was, I was on there and it's interesting to see that there are a handful of people that will say like, oh, I keep this private for professional issues and then don't show your face. And I'm like, interesting. I didn't really piece together how much that's probably a whole level of people personhood where like, yeah, where this is all kept very much so on the DL. I don't know much about the swinger.


I kind of like went straight to Polly. So like this is not, I don't know about this world of people. And, you know, the funny thing about the swinger community, and this is, this is what I find most fascinating about it is if you took society as a whole and just bisected, let's say, 7 % because that's the estimate of society that's swingers. Okay. Straight down. Yeah. That's the swinger community. So we have the, the Maga Republicans, we have staunch Christians, we have everything. And so on one side, isn't that cool that there is something uniting people? On the other side, when you point out to people, your beliefs are incongruous with the things you are doing. And thus, when you advocate against the LGBT community, and then you come to a party and you watch your wife fuck someone else.


So another woman? you are a fucking hypocrite, my friend, and you deserve to be exposed. I don't know, I took a hard line there. I'm not sure I'm talking about that. Yeah, for sure.


I mean, I think your passion is so right that like it's so, so hypocritical. I think, yeah, how do we bring those people into awakening? That's the question, right?


Like how do we do that? Because in my head, I'm thinking about these people and these apps, these people that are so in shame of the aspects of themselves that they can't show it to the world. Like that's actually a very scary place to be, right? That you, I mean, yeah, when you're actively supporting organizations and other stuff that are directly harming people of color, trans people, LGBTQ, like there is a level of responsibility that we have the righteous anger to be like, fuck yeah, you need to be held accountable for that bullshit. And then at the other side, it's like, ooh, what sort of shame are they going through? To feel like, yeah, ooh, that makes me sad for them.


Yeah. I mean, you see that all across the repressed society. You know, I grew up Catholic, so I am not immune. OK, so there we go. We both know how that just fucks you right the hell up in terms of how you feel about yourself, your sexuality.


And it causes things like. I don't want to sound like I'm only targeting Republicans. I'm with you.


But I kind of am because it is the Republicans who show up in the airport bathroom trying to fuck some guy while legislating against gay rights. And I know that's because of shame because I understand that shame. I've had that shame. Yeah. I've had the I'm on a chat room talking to some guy until I have that moment of clarity that freaks me out.


And now I'm not talking to that person anymore. You know, it's I get it. Yeah, but at the same time, it needs to be forced out. We need to expel that demon of shame because that is actively ruining everything. Honest. Yeah.


Yeah, I mean, that's one of the best questions. What is the thing that brings up so much fear, so much response in you? That is always the thing that is inside yourself that you have not looked at yet. So when everyone starts freaking out about homosexuality and pointing the finger at that stuff, I say, OK, well, what's inside you?


Yeah, tell me about your dream where you fucked your best friend because I know you had one. And this is not to say, you know, that all all homophobic people are secretly gay because I don't believe that. But I do believe that it is a reaction to something they feel about themselves that they have not processed.


Yes. And processing that is so important. And that's why I feel like the journey. That's why I am so lucky to have the journey I've had.


Because I fully acknowledge, you know, as a cis white guy, I had the privilege to go on this journey. And not everybody has it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But at the same time, I did the work. Absolutely.


And the work looks like exploring yourself because, you know, when I said that I went into the white bread, suburban marriage, you know, what happens when you get married? You're done. That's you're done growing. You're done changing. That's it.


Because why do you need to? You've done it. You've succeeded. And I thought I was done as a somewhat shamefully interested in dick, suburban, like I thought that was it. You know, I'll just shamefully be interested in dick for the rest of my life. But ever since I opened up and that one question that how about swinging changed my life in literally every way? Nothing I have now, nothing would be here without that question. Because everyone I've met, everyone in my life, every friend I have, my partners, everyone came from that decision.


And it just takes a willingness to strip yourself there. And look at the things that might terrify you because I was terrified. I was gay. And not because I didn't want to be gay, but because what if I was so wrong about myself? What if I thought I was straight forever?


Was really gay? That just fucked with my head. Yeah, that's a scary question to ask.


Yes. And we need to sit with those scary questions. And when I when I talk about, you know, Paging is sort of like the gateway to that discussion. It totally is.


I see where you're going with this. Because Paging is a thing, you know, to define Paging. Paging is it was traditionally a woman with a strap on fucking a man. We have sort of expanded that to be anyone with a strap on fucking someone in the ass.


Because we want to be super inclusive. The key, though, is it's often a role reversal. You know, men are used to fucking and women are used to being fucked. And that's not to even get into the things like top and bottom, Dom and sub.


It's the role reversal of simply changing that status quo. Because, you know, I've been married a lot of times. You just do the, you know, missionary position until you come and then you go to sleep. That's that's not only bad sex lives. That's most sex lives. So any upset of the status quo is going to change your your perception.


Yep. And the the biggest question I get, you know, we get whispered this question, but what if what if that makes me gay? And it's like, well, first of all, nothing will make you gay, either you're gay or you're not, you know, and at the same time, you may be further down that spectrum than you thought you were.


Right. But you're not going to just suddenly, you know, have a dick in your ass and be like, oh, I'm gay, right. And if you do, wouldn't that be great because you realize something fundamental about yourself, yes, that you're gay, because you are gay. You should be. You would want to know. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So important.


Yeah. But, you know, everyone who's afraid of this, like, like as a bi guy, I tell people, you can suck a cock tonight. You're at a party with with guys and there's a guy there and he's like, oh, that's a pretty nice cock. What would happen if I sucked it? You know what?


Nothing. Unless you suddenly change your entire perception of your sexuality, nothing, you can suck one cock in your life and never again. Or you can realize how much you like doing it and now have a new, awesome, sexy thing you can do. It's it's just we're we're hardwired to be afraid to explore this shit. And that's what's really sad because the but to anyone who has explored it is one of the most awesome, sensitive parts of the body. And believe me, as someone who's had a prostate orgasm, we'll wait for that.


Bust pass. As someone who's had a prostate orgasm, I can tell you it is amazing to be able to come over and over and over and not have to worry about one ejaculation and two, the awful moment of clarity that comes after ejaculation. You know, and I see this on Reddit all the time. It's like because. We are hardwired to be done after ejaculation. You're supposed to go to bed so you can wake up the next morning and go out and hunt the mammoth. That's what happens after you ejaculate. And because of that, like I personally, I don't want to speak for everyone, but I, you know, if I'll be jacking off and come and that's like, well, I probably never need to do this again because I feel like in that moment.


So you never ever need to come again because. There's something weird in our in our DNA that does that. And I feel like there's a similar thing.


That goes along with but play. You know, I've had situations where I've enjoyed thoroughly being fucked in the ass, but then had a weird level of shame crop up. And not because I've ever thought anal sex is bad. It was almost like it was ingrained. It was it was a deeper thing.


And in talking to other men who enjoy but stuff, I'm not alone there. That that happens. And we don't know why that happens.


You know why? Because no one fucking does any research on fun sex. They only do research on, you know, this sex will damage you.


You shouldn't do it. But they're never putting any money toward the prostate being a place of pleasure. Right, absolutely. Well, I like to call this some real feminist research over here.


I bring people on the come over and tell me their truth and I share it with the world. So you tell me exactly how good that orgasm felt. It lasted for 55 minutes. Admittedly, I have not had one like that since. Yeah, tell me about it.


Well, let me ask you, if this is okay. Do you have squirting orgasms? I have, yes. Okay. Was it difficult for you to have your first one?


Yeah, sure. Then after that, was it easier and easier? I haven't explored it as much. So in some ways, no, I haven't explored it.


I've had this few times and haven't explored it again. So what I, this is just my observation as a cis guy cannot speak for vulva havers. Right. But I have seen people who have their first squirting orgasm and then really go after it. And then it starts to happen. Not with the G spot. Like now you're rubbing the clip and you're squirting. Now you're just getting really excited and you're squirting. So I look at that as these are neural pathways being rewritten. Because your body's like, Oh, this feels good. And this feels good. And they're really close to each other.


So let's just connect them. So I'm the same thing with my prostate orgasms. Nice. My prostate orgasms are like a shuddery thing, you know, like I get really intensely jittery, you know, and I'll, I'll clench and release and clench and release.


Powerful. My current partner, the first time we had sex, she fucked me with a dildo and I had a prostate orgasm and she thought I was having a seizure. She was so freaked out. Call the ambulance. Yo, she was about to do it. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.


That's amazing. And so now it can happen from any touch, you know, it can happen with a blowjob. And because no one's going to tell you what you're having is not an orgasm.


Right. You know, so there's all this discussion about, can you have a G spot orgasm? Is that a thing? Is it P?


Is it not? It doesn't honestly, it doesn't fucking matter if it feels good. Yeah, I'm a man to that. Yeah. So I'm having these orgasms and you know what? They don't need a hard dick and they don't need ejaculation. And isn't that awesome that I can do it without those things and then it can just keep going.


So anyone who's not trying, you know, like, like I get it, but play can be scary. And if you're only experienced with something in your ass is your proctologist sticking his finger up there. That's not supposed to feel good. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no.


Nothing about that is supposed to be sexual to you in any way. So he tries to do it as quickly as possible. And there's nothing good about quick anal. Right, right, right, right.


Yes. So I advise people when they're thinking about anal is don't think about being penetrated because if that's the scary part, that's the scary part. You know, what's what's amazing is you lube up a thumb and just rub it around your anus.


It feels amazing. And you do that in combination with a blowjob you start to make these connections. And then when you feel more comfortable and you're with someone you trust, which is very important, then you move on to a finger, then you move on to a toy. Don't leap in to getting fucked with a giant dildo because you may not be ready. And that may take the whole experience. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.


Absolutely. It takes time to build that up. And like you said, to build different associations to this act and to what it might mean for you. Like you said earlier about your sexuality, you know, I think for me as you're telling me this experience about your prostate orgasm, like I just want to ask the question.


I know that you're going to answer, but I have to ask every good like this. Did you feel alive? I did. Well, no, I honestly, I lost time. Okay, well, let's talk about that. Like talk about how fucking alive you felt.


It's crazy. No, it's like, it goes along with feeling done. Like I feel not when you have a new pleasurable experience at, I think I was 35 when it happened, maybe, maybe a little older. That it's unbelievable because you never like, and honestly, I was chasing the prostate orgasm, which is a day. You know, I'd heard people talk about it.


I didn't know anyone who'd had one. Right. But Tristan Teremino assured me that she had made someone come with their prostate. So I believe her. There's hope.


Yeah, there's hope. And then I was lucky enough to have have a friend on this. So we do an annual trip to Mexico. You know, and I had a friend on this trip who was willing to put a butt plug in and she said I'm a professional and I didn't know what that meant. Turns out she was a somatic sex worker. I didn't know that at the time, but she manipulated that butt plug until she found the spot. And like afterwards it's like, okay, was that a prostate orgasm? She's like, yeah, that was a prostate orgasm.


Are you fucking kidding me? That was, of course, that was a prostate orgasm. It is so amazing to discover new things about your sexuality. You know, and we're so afraid and we're so shamed. And that's what keeps us from exploring and exploration is what keeps us young. You know, that is what will, when we're in the nursing home and people are writing stories about all the old people fucking, we want it to be very cool.


I want to have some old woman fucking me in the ass with a strap on in the nursing home. Absolutely. Because otherwise it sounds like a nightmare. Right. I heard the STDs are very common. They are. They are. But at that point you don't care as much.


I guess that's true. You're dying. Go out swinging.


Use protection that everyone do. Yes, 100%. Yeah, exactly.


It's funny that they have that going on them. I mean, I think for me, it's just so like, that's such a moment of expansion for you, your sense of self, for your sense of pleasure, for your sense of connection to other people and what they can give you in terms of pleasure. I mean, wow, like these are the moments that we feel the most alive to feel like we're learning so much more about ourselves.


And there's so much that we haven't even like figured out yet. And I would say right around that experience was when I really took a different view of the people around me, the people in my life, and that, you know, I, I recognize that I love these people. I'm around, you know, whether we have a romantic relationship or not. There's love there.


Yep. And we need that. We need love. We need, we need affection. We need touch. Yes.


And our world has made us, has made that a difficult commodity because of all that is assumed to come with it. Yes. You know, if you're, if you're in the suburbs and your neighbors with this other couple, you can't say, Hey man, your wife is hot because it's a, it's a, it's a negative connotation. You know, it's like, Oh, I want to fuck your life.


Yep. And you might not, you might not mean that you might just want to come, you know, talk about how sexy that, you know, is great attraction and it's amazing. And so to be able to have relationships like that. And, and I really found it in the queer community, honestly. And I say the queer community because I mean literally everyone on that spectrum I was talking about. And people who even identify as straight, but fall into this, you know, bouillabaisse of sexuality, the exploration, because they are the ones I want to talk to. They are the ones I want to have relationships with, no matter what kind of relationship they are. And they're really the reason I'm no longer part of actively part of the Swinger community is because the Swinger community doesn't understand them. And I get it.


I do. But I did a, you know, Naughty in New Orleans, the big Swinger convention. So it's the biggest Swinger thing in the United States. Yeah, happens every year, about 2000 swingers in a couple blocks in New York. So I did a class there, which was about what swingers can learn from the LGBTQ community.


A lot. And I was surprised the number of people attending, but I got so much pushback from it, because I feel like the LGBT community has figured out love better than straight people. Because there is so much need. need for love right now, like with everything that's happening. This is a dark fucking time. And the more we love each other and the more we treat each other with love and respect, the better chance we'll survive this. And it's not to say love people who are actively fighting against you. I don't believe in that.


Foundries are healthy. Yeah, I have family members who are MAGA people. Thankfully, they're not my immediate family, but I don't want to see them. I'm sorry. Yeah.


I just don't want to interact with them because I don't want to have to tell them, I don't want you in my life because I will. And honestly, part of I credit Trump with me. So I have, I have two identities here. I have my non monogamy persona, my sex educator persona. And then I have my, this is with my parents, friends. I'm this guy over here. Okay.


Yeah. And when Trump was elected and when all this shit started coming out about the LGBT community and how the restrictions were going to happen, every time something like that would happen, I would post on Facebook, by the way, I'm by, by the way, I'm non monogamous. I came out more and more and more every time something like that would happen because I wanted these people in my life who were hating on queer people. I wanted them to know I saw them and I am queer. So fuck you and take it back or I just don't have to see you anymore because no one needs that bullshit in their life.


Why should we just because of a blood bond? Yeah, everyone's like, oh, well, we don't talk. Here's the other reason I don't like the swinging community. They don't talk about politics. And they make that a point. Oh, we don't talk about politics. Everything is political, especially when you're queer. Your life is politics. So you not talking about politics means you don't want to be confronted with your hypocrisy.


And with what you're doing to my community. Right. That's what I don't like to talk about politics means. Mm hmm. And I get it. It's harder than ever to have meaningful relationships with predominantly older people because they do have different mindsets. And again, I get it.


Yeah, but I shouldn't have to explain to my liberal uncle why it's okay that there are a lot of shows featuring gay people on TV. Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah. But I will. And that's advocacy. Right.


Being an ally. Right. And I'm thinking the same thing about people of color to write the people who say I don't see color, right. And then they're like, it's like, but you do. Yeah, and then we get all the bullshit people freaking out about Ariel as the Disney. Oh my God, she's black. I mean, and the best thing I saw about that was you're right. Ariel shouldn't be black.


She should be translucent and horrifying because she lives in the bottom of the ocean. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's what Ariel should be. Yeah, it's just like, oh my God. And so my thing is, I just want to be clear. I don't think Ariel should be translucent and horrifying.


And I think that that awesome black girl looks like an amazing Ariel. Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. But it's like these different levels of just like not understanding that by not saying anything, by not exploring this, you're complicit in the same problem. And you're, you're continuing to be a part of the problem when you're not looking at that in yourself. And I think what's been interesting for me then is like, okay, as someone who has family that's in that mag, you know, supporting Trump or other people in my life who maybe aren't, you know, where, where they maybe should be in terms of loving other people, right? Let's be honest.


How do we keep those people in our community in a way that I have boundaries that it doesn't like completely like become this teaching relationship, but also have other people in my community that fill up my cup so that I can pour back into this other relationship that maybe takes a little bit more patience teaching time because the answer is not to be like, I'm not going to talk to anybody in that space, right? And we're not saved. We're not sorry.


And again, savings not the right word, right? But like, I know it is, it's a fucking cult. It is bringing people awake, right? Like just that, at least to these things of supporting LGBT, you know, LGBTQ and people of color and trans people. I mean, the, the non, the nominogamy question that's for people to figure out on their own and what they want with their life and sexuality. But these basic things that you're not supporting, like we got fucking people and treat them like people, you know, like real people, not commodity people. Right. And so how do we keep those people in community to do that work without it being so much so that we're like, I won't talk to you at all, but like in a way that doesn't.


Well, that's the hardest thing, right? Because you do. I mean, I'm not going to speak for you, but as a self proclaimed educator, I do feel the call to talk them through and talk them down. At the same time, as a mentally ill person, I need to recognize that I can't talk most of them down, and it only fucks me up when I'm trying, because they're not changing. And I go home thinking less of them.


You know, so I, I totally agree. We need to try. But at the same time, we also, we're fragile. I don't know anyone who's not neurodivergent in some way, honestly. Is that a function of the community? You know, I've often thought about this, like, like, I know so many people who are non monogamous who are queer, who are also disabled, and have been disabled for a long period of their lives.


And I think about this. It's like, obviously, correlation and causation are two different things. But if you have a normal life, and I'm using air quotes around normal, you are more likely to have a normal adulthood, where you grow up and get married and have kids and be part of your church and, and you know, populate the species, that is quote normal. But if you have an abnormal life and an abnormal life can have any number of factors, it can be about a divorce early on, it can be about a disability, things that take you away from that normal quote track. You are more likely to look at other options.


Yeah, because the normal option doesn't feel good to you. It doesn't. It's not enough.


Doesn't have enough space for you. Yeah. Yeah. And I think we're seeing a lot of kids, and I say kids, meaning young adults, 18 year old kids. I say this is an old man. They're not, they're not doing what their parents did.


Oh, yeah. I've got so much hope for them. I've got so much hope for this younger generation. They'll be all right, assuming the world is still around. Yeah, yeah, I hear you.


Because they don't even, they're not worried about Swinger or Polly. They're just open. Yeah. You know, they're not worried about monogamy because they're just dating.


They're just exploring. I know so many young trans people. Why? Because they were given the license to be themselves. You know, and that is the kindest thing we can possibly do is if people are not hurting other people, and I need to caveat that, to be themselves, to be what they're into, to explore their likes and dislikes. Yeah, to have space.


If they're not hurting other people. Yeah. I just keep adding that in because that's an important factor. It is. It is.


It is. Because I've been asked, well, so you support pedophilia. like, no, you jackass, that's not the same thing.


I'm sorry, someone even asked that, yeah, wow. It's important conversations to be having. I think these are important conversations, and I at least am so much so resonating with you.


I know for you, it was this question of the swinger, right? Do I do this? And then this whole crazy mind fuck of expansion that it just set you on. Woo, I am on that road with you. Oh, it's amazing. Holly Amory, and it is, oh, I also have this time where I'm always like, damn, did I take the matrix? Like, did I open it up? And like, do I kind of want to go back though? Cause it's like, it was a little easier back then, and there were more people. Oh yeah, it is not easy by any means. And that's the, you know, like people who would denigrate our lifestyle, they don't understand how fucking complicated it is. It's not easy just cause I can fuck who I want to fuck. You know what that means? You dated people in your life.


It's like that, but exponentially bigger. Yeah, and you work on jealousy. And when that shit comes up, you work on it, and you talk about it, and you explain what I need. I have to tell you what I need. Maybe that's security, maybe that's more a time, whatever that is. So that is not an easy bro, let me tell you.


Not at all. To figure it out, what the fuck do I need? That's a whole path and a whole journey I'm still figuring out every day. And I always say to people, you know, if you choose monogamy, that's awesome. Yeah, absolutely. Because it shows it. Yes.


I was monogamous because I didn't know I had a choice. And you don't have to be open forever. Yes.


You know, if you go on this journey and you want to have sex with people, or you want to have multiple relationships, and then you realize maybe this isn't right for you, you can start shutting that down. That's okay. Absolutely. It's just make a choice. Be active participant in your future, rather than a passive observer.


That's the consciousness of it, right? I'm able to see that there are different options. I have the relationship escalator book over here. Oh yeah, oh yeah. I mean, that's all of what we've been talking about, where it's like you start on that, and then it's like, oh, it means this, and we're doing that, and we're going here, and we're doing this. And like you said, one of the first steps for you was that you weren't going to have kids.


That's right. And then, right, when you start to add these other things that get off even the relationship escalator of like, yeah, LGBTQ, disabled, trans, all these other pieces, you really start to ask yourself, well, what does my future look like? And there's no other narrative for that. I'm still waiting for my polyamory love story, okay? I've got some music that I connect to, but where's my like polyamory love story? Yeah, the media is not great for it, but Short Bus is the movie where non-monogamy solves everything. Oh really, Short Bus? Okay, yeah.


It is amazing, and I highly recommend it. Part of the reason people are afraid of exploration and non-monogamy is the change. You know, if I'm in a marriage and I explore, what if I discover something new? What if my partner falls in love with someone else?


That's the big one, right? What if my partner falls in love with someone else? They're gonna lose me, yeah.


You know what? Monogamy is not Saran wrap around your relationship. Monogamy is not holding you together.


No, no. Because your partner could find someone else literally anywhere at any time. Yeah, and in terms of our evolutionary biology and sexual drive and... We're built for that.


Yeah, unfortunately, yeah, that is the reality. So you have to recognize that your relationship is about choice. You are choosing to be together, and you're choosing that every day.


Yes, and that's beautiful. And the moment you stop choosing that, maybe you shouldn't be together. Because honestly, divorce isn't a failing.


No. You know, relationships end. And the biggest thing that we all have to recognize is the narrative of happily ever after means the only winning relationship is death. Because the only way it's successful is if one of you dies.


Because you made it to the end then. And that is bullshit. Yeah, yeah. And something that nobody thinks about. But isn't it wonderful as a poly person to be able to have a relationship that lasts a month or lasts a year and recognize I got all this out of this relationship?


And you know what? We're not on the same page going forward, but that does not negate any of the things I got out of this relationship. And therefore, it's a success. That is success. Absolutely. And even further, is there a way for us to de-escalate the relationships that we don't have to completely stop it? Sometimes, I mean, obviously, sometimes you need space. There's a lot of pain. And that's hard.


It passes through. But it can be a thing. You know? Yeah. The key to that is being kind.


Yeah. Because I've had relationships where it's just not working for me. And but at the same time, you don't need to end a relationship.


I have a partner who, because of work and the pandemic and family things, we don't get to see each other very much at all. Right. And that sucks.


Yeah. But I don't need to end that relationship just because we can't see each other because you know what? There will come a time when we can again. So why don't I just recognize that that relationship, that part of the relationship is in a sort of hibernation right now.


Mm-hmm. And even if it doesn't come back to what it was, you know, I don't have negative feelings about what it was. It's so valuable to be able to look at the good. And I understand we are programmed to elevate the bad, to be the, oh man, that was fucking crazy. And that person was a nightmare. Yeah.


And I've been that toxic person too. It is, it's much easier. And I'm not saying we're all at fault on things, you know? Because a lot of people will listen to that as like, but it wasn't my fault. It's like, that's fine. It doesn't have to be your fault.


It doesn't make it exclusively their fault. Yeah. And sometimes people are assholes.


You know, there is also that. Sometimes they're cruel and assholes and you don't need to love them through that. Like I'm not, I'm not Jesus over here saying, turn the other cheek. I might be, I'm so sorry. I'm not like the hurt people or hurt.


Well, it's my psychology nature because I'm like hurt people, hurt people. So like, the asshole is inside. So like shit, you know, I am kind of there.


Well, I'm going, I'm going with the, for my own mental health. But that's exactly boundaries. I need to not be around you. Yeah. Yes, yes. Boundaries is an act of love. Like I can see where you're at and you are harming me and I am no longer going to talk to you.


Yes. Because it is not safe, but I love you and good luck. You know what I mean? Like, I will go along. I will, I will go along. Yes. That's my inner psychology stuff. No, I appreciate that. Yeah.


But it's so true. I think what you're, you're heading on is this ability to hold multiple layers of reality, right? Like it was good and there was pain, you know?


And this was a relationship that ended and it was good. And like being able to hold that yes and is a completely different paradigm than like, they suck blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, no, can we be able to sit with all of it? That like they are a human in their own pain too, but I need to have this boundary in space, you know? Like I don't talk to my ex-wife anymore. Sure.


Because of who she is post our relationship. Yeah. And that's fine. But at the same time, I do treasure our relationship. And I see the value that it gave my life. Right.


Because again, that question wouldn't have been asked without our relationship. Right. And so it's, it is difficult. All of this is difficult. And all of this requires us to not just be sitting idly. We have to be active, emotionally active, you know? As a person who doesn't exercise, I won't say we have to be active. But emotionally active is essential. Yes. And that emotional activity requires us to ask of ourselves, well, what about this?


What about this? And not everything is for us. Non-monogamy isn't for everyone. Swinging isn't for everyone.


Pegging isn't for everyone. But if we never ask and we never try, we honestly don't know. Yeah, is it informed consent at that point? If you don't know. I would say it's not that's why when we do research we got to tell all the people about the benefits Yes, right and the risks.


Yeah, okay. Yeah, so I think a lot of what we've gotten from our narrative is this is the risk This is the bad but like we've never had a benefit, you know, like hey There's this option and it could work for you, right? I also think it's funny when you're talking about like the different pieces of the LGBTQ and Disabled and also like I feel like there's this big presence of therapists Just throwing that out there don't know what that means Yeah, I've seen a lot about people and how to do relationships. It's interesting like I feel like I keep also a lot of Nerds.


Oh, I I also fell into that And a lot of banned people and a lot you don't see as many footballers It's it's very interesting if you look at it purely from a sociological What's the bucket? Yeah, it is it is I Like to go with Hedwig and the angriance they call them the misfits and the losers Mmm, we are the misfits and losers and in short bus they say for the gifted and challenged We are Yes, yes, and I think acknowledging that we're broken is huge You know us because all of us are broken. Yes Society right and we are we need to recognize that in ourselves because that's how we become I Don't think we can ever become whole but we can become more and we can become better We can improve and we can be better for each other. Yes, you know because that's That's essential And recognizing the growth and change in life is also essential like people are different like my Relationship with my primary nesting partner is different than it was three years ago because there was a fucking pandemic And that changes you changes inevitable. Yeah, and Against change you'll never be able to stop it so embracing change and Recognizing that we are growing and we're on a path and we'll see where that goes.


I Think that's the only way to really be happy like actual happiness Yeah, I'm thinking about the Buddhist metaphor of you know, like when Dealing with change right you're in the river and we're clinging on to this rock and as we're clinging we're facing the Water coming straight into our face and we're just drowning in it But we're like this rocks right here and I Here and just drowning in it versus just like letting to go on your back and just swimming and letting the river take you Like a lazy river down with it, you know, but the thing is like it's always like I want the security because the rocks right here I'm man. Yeah, that's what I know Yeah, I'm still dealing with that in some ways, right? We all are so it's like how Whoo, how can we let go and trust especially trust the web of at least for me? That's been my biggest thing is learning to let go of I've been struggling with someone who was monogamous You're at your hit me at a really strong point in my life.


I'm hitting this This point where non-monogamy is now no longer a negotiable aspect of dating. Oh, yeah At a certain point you either are all in Or not, okay. Well, I hit the all-in moment I went through the dark night of the soul Man, and so like learning to let go of that rock of like that is it's scary to trust that it's gonna be okay No, and it will It will yeah Because we're all looking for the same thing. We're all looking for Connection we're all looking for love and we're all looking to get fucked We're all looking for the same stuff and expansion psychologically and to care and have community I think when you're talking about that bucket some of the other bucket pieces that I would throw in are like theater people No, no, oh, yeah, and then all of my spiritual yogi Like myself I think that's those are the buckets I'm sitting and so it's been nice to find like your tribe in that too and he won't It helps a lot. Yeah I'm feeling like a good Combination do you feel like there's anything still lingering before I come to some closing questions with our time here?


I like to hold a little bit of space. I feel like we could talk for a long time Feel like why don't you head to the Rap well then the one question that I ask everyone on the podcast is What is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal? Oof, I think I think just questioning yourself You know, we all are so afraid when we start to question and that's that's every aspect of what we've been talking about When you question is monogamy right when you question Am I Interested in in guys am I interested in women? questioning is not only Happening to everybody, but it is important to happen to everybody and I Don't know anyone who hasn't gone through that and the people who say they haven't I A lot more to go and they have a lot more to go so the questioning is valuable and The more you write it. It's just that metaphor was perfect for it the questioning is letting yourself go and that takes So much bravery and that takes communication if you're in a relationship Don't just let yourself go communicate about it Because letting yourself go in a relationship often looks like cheating and you shouldn't do that Right have the conversation if your partner does not want to fuck other people and you do have the conversation And if you can't come to a decision Get divorced That relationship because if you're not on the same page You should not be together Right and if that is a calling to you to get to your death bed one day. I'm wonder what if is not a good place to be in your life Unfortunately, that's the the really tough reality is as much as these relationships feel good if you have that inkling Yeah Resentment will only grow if you don't explore that it's oh and I see so much of that like again The reddit chat rooms are full of this in the sexual room like I want to experience something but I don't know how to and I'm 60 and You know what? 40 years of not talking about something does not make it any easier to talk about It was hard with seven years of not talking about something Just you need to communicate Everything yeah, and it will get easier to do The more you do it. Yeah growing those muscles in that.


Yeah. Yeah, and that you're not alone Man is there so much deep work to explore here in terms of this Like yeah, I mean this is why I get excited about sex and relationships Talk to a third and get a good one who's not going to condemn you For very real reality you want because that is a thing Yes, obviously if a therapist has a bias towards Monogamy and if they haven't checked that on their own then they can do real harm in the therapy room of making people feel bad to Explore these things so it is a very real reality since this it you know all these things are minority communities you need to have Someone who is at least aware of the bias because the bias exists in the culture And if the therapist has not checked that then they might be enacting out harm on their clients 100 % This has been so fun. I love when I get to people who on same-lay-winks. It's so good.


You just kind of get to flow It's so good. Oh Is there anywhere you'd like to plug for your work for yes, I connect to you to find more about So you can find me pretty much everywhere at Cooper s Beckett I am very ranty and political on Twitter's but not as much on Facebook and Instagram So just you know go at your own pace I have Six books now I have yes Congratulations my my life on the swing set is a memoir of my first five years in nonmonogamy and Talks about things like exploring and opening up and the transition between swinging and poly I Have two novels about nonmonogamy Approaching the swing hilarity and a lifeless monogamous If you're a horror fan, I have two horror novels about a queer nonmonogamous ghost hunter yes and The pegging book is coming out. It's been pushed back a little bit. It's coming out the beginning of November But you can find that everywhere Hopefully and it's it's a it's a very cute little non-threatening book and you know what if you've ever considered pegging And you're afraid to bring it up to your partner Just just hand them the book just put the book on the back of the toilet Oh my god, look at this book. Have you heard of this? I heard on a podcast them talking about this book. Here's this book You say that but literally my friend before here before we have this conversation She's like I'm gonna take that that podcast recording and send it to my I In the book we talk about that broad city episode If you if you're interested and you show that to your partner and Then at the end you like what do you think? Exactly exactly exactly good little conversation It's great. Yeah, well, this was such a pleasure truly. Thank you for coming If you enjoyed today's episode then leave us a five-star review wherever you listen to your podcast And if you're a part of the anarchist community and then follow us on Instagram or nominate a guest for the show by sending in a letter to Modern anarchy podcast at gmail.com. Otherwise, I'll see you next week

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