237. Relationship Anarchist: Momo

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Momo join us for another relationship anarchy research conversation. So together we talk about creating mutually pleasurable relationships, getting off the intimacy escalator, and stepping into an abundance of love. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday.

My name is Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing that psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, author of the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and founder of the Pleasure Practice supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships. Dear. Listener, I am so excited to be sharing another Relationship Anarchy episode with you.

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And the first question that I love to ask each guest is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:04:40] Momo: Um, so I am Momo, I am in my early twenties and live somewhere in Europe. I think apart from the work I am paid for doing mm-hmm. Um, I define myself a lot about or like through my activism.

[00:04:58] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:05:00] Momo: And through being a romantic non-binary and asexual relationship anarchist.

[00:05:09] Dr. Nicole: Amazing. Well, welcome to the show. I'm very excited to get to talk to you and hear all about your practice of relationship anarchy. Thank you. Of course. Alright, well, that first very big question. What is relationship anarchy? What do those words mean to you?

[00:05:27] Momo: To me, that means the philosophy of living relationships and sharing love in a way that doesn't prioritize the relationship based on the label it has or the nature of it.

So a pla relationship can be just as important or equally important as a sexual relationship or a sexual relationship, can be a lot less important than a platonic one. And to have the freedom to develop connections on an individual basis with people as well as in a fluid way.

[00:06:03] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:04] Momo: With how the relationship can change over time.

[00:06:07] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:06:08] Momo: And maybe at the beginning it was very, I don't know. Project based, for instance. Mm-hmm. Where I would work on a project with someone and then suddenly it became a lot more private and we would go on a holiday together. Mm-hmm. And see how things change and develop and allowing change to happen.

Yeah. But also allowing to have discussions on the meta level with the people of like, okay, so what do you want? What do I want? Where do we meet? What are our boundaries? And kind of regularly reevaluating those relationships.

[00:06:40] Dr. Nicole: Right? Absolutely right. 'cause change is the only inevitable in our human existence, right?

Uh, and so that means that our relationships will change, right? And so it sounds like, uh, a framework that is rooted in consent culture, right? Which is knowing that it's ongoing, right? And so the ways that you relate to this person can change over time, which means we check in over time of, Hey, does this way of relating still feel good to you?

If no, how, how can we change that? How can we still continue to find ways that are both mutually pleasurable for us, right? Mm-hmm. And so I hear that embrace of change over time. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And then also that deep embrace of the multiplicity of intimacy, right? Yes. Sex is not the highest form of intimacy.

It might be the trickiest form in our current culture. I hope we live to see the day of a different culture. Right. Um, there's a lot of skills there for us to learn, depending on where your starting point is. Uh, but it's certainly not the highest form of intimacy. Do you wanna speak more to that in your journey there?

[00:07:50] Momo: Sure. For a bit of context, I started working with Relationship Energy about one and a half years ago, and it was a very chaotic wild ride for him. Oh yeah. Which started off randomly meeting several people that are at least 12 years older than me. Sure. And who all. Happened to be somehow even interconnected with each other and me finding out afterwards that they're all connected to each other and be like, okay, cool.

So I ended up in this bubble here. Yes. Um, and them all being polyamorous as well and having these very intimate relationships with each of those three people. And at the same time, none of those relationships were sexual. Mm. And realizing, okay, so I have this connection with a person. It feels very intimate and I have no clue what this is.

Yeah. Or like how I could find a word to describe that relationship or that connection that I experience and being very confused by it. Mm-hmm. But I think from there on, I learned a lot about how intimacy can be a lot about emotional intimacy of like being vulnerable with another person and being able to share difficult topics or.

Also struggles that I have faced in that time. Right. Or I'm still facing nowadays. Or things like having eye contact in silence. Yeah. Which is incredibly intimate to me. Yeah. And so beautiful, but also absolutely not sexual. Mm-hmm. Um, but which also has led to misunderstandings because some people I know with whom I cuddle a lot, for instance, once they asked me, you know, for me, I contacted something that exists only in a romantic context, in this intensity that I have it.

And um, like, I know you are a romantic, so I'm confused by you having this intimate long eye contact with me. And I was like, yeah, no, this is not romantic at all. At least not to me. It's intimate. Yes, sure. But not the same thing I guess. And how it comes as well, along with a lot of care that is kind of beyond the heteronormative expectations of what can happen within friendships and or maybe also just acquaintances.

[00:10:13] Dr. Nicole: Sure, sure, sure, sure. So, yeah. Yeah. Oh, it breaks my heart to hear that someone would equate eye contact with romance and romance only. Right. As a therapist, I have such intense eye contact with my clients. Mm-hmm. Because I'm seeing them attuning to them. I'm watching, I'm present. And that's not necessarily romantic or sexual at all.

Right. It's deeply intimate and that's part of what's healing about it. Mm-hmm. But it's so sad to think that for this person, that's the only way they really experience that. Makes me, my therapist brain is like, Ooh, what was, what were their early attachments? Like, I'm already, I'm already thinking, you know, but coming back to the present moment, I'm like, wow, okay.

That's heartbreaking. And a reflection of our culture, which is so often disc disconnected. Right. And we see, um, whether it's eye contact for some or holding hands, snuggling, kissing, wherever we wanna get on that escalator, people see that as boxed in for just one type of relationship. You know, this. In our culture, the heteronormative, monogamous, you know, yeah.

Uh, relationship, right? And so to kind of deconstruct all of those boxes and really step into this more expansive world, right? It's a lot of, um, cognitive. Paradigm shifting work for folks. If you've been taught one way of this is what it looks like. They meet someone like you and you, you live so outside of the boxes, that it really disrupts their understanding of reality.

[00:11:48] Momo: Um, yeah. That, that has been definitely an experience. Like I have finished my apprenticeship, uh, two weeks ago, Uhhuh, congrats. And in like the process of finishing it, we had this, um, event at work where we were allowed to bring a partner and family and I was the only person to not bring parents, but a hoard of siblings and people I relate to.

Yeah. And, um, so I'm like in a German speaking country. Sure. So we have this term called, which is like a neutral term for saying a relationship person. Mm. And I use that term a lot, especially for people that I have a committed relationship with. Mm-hmm. So I would be like, well, this is one person. This is a bit young me, this is another person, a bits young me, and this is my brother.

And my boss looked at me, he is like, oh, that's a bits young, me too. And I'm like, no. I mean, yes, we're related, but no, not in our way. And my brain was just trying to process the information of a new word because it's not used a lot outside of polyamorous contexts usually. Okay. Or non monogamous contexts.

So, yeah. That, that was funny.

[00:13:02] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the grasp for language, right? The grasp mm-hmm. To understand, which is beautiful. It's a part of intimacy When we're in a, uh, a circle and someone says, who is this person that you brought? Right? People might use words like, this is my partner, this is my husband, this is my lover, this is my wife.

Whatever those words are mm-hmm. They mean something, right? And we're trying to grasp at understanding, essentially like, where's this person in your world? Right. And I don't know, I find it interesting. It's like, I'm trying to tell you that I fuck this person apparently. Right. You know, like, this is my partner.

And you make all the assumptions with that, right? Like, versus just like, oh, this is this. Human, and maybe we could get to the deeper level of how do you relate through a much larger conversation. Right. Um, when we start deconstructing the escalator, these labels get really murky of what we're trying to actually say.

You know, so I mm-hmm. I'll be curious as a society where we move in that journey, um, I really like the word lover to just be as expansive to people that I suggle or talk to or I have sex with or build parts of my life with. They're all like lovers of mine, right. And if people really need to know who I am fucking, or they really need to know who I am gonna, you know, partially cohabitate with, or who I'm building, these visions of other things, like maybe we could have that in a much longer conversation.

Right? Yeah. It's like, what does it, is it to them? Yeah, exactly. I must know your life. Tell me, I must understand you and all of it. It's like, wow.

[00:14:37] Momo: And I mean, the funny part is like, especially people who. Or acquaintances of mine who know that I'm a romantic and bisexual, they get super confused about me having several people that I also am kinky with.

Mm. Because sometimes I share with people like, yeah. I have like one friend I used to refer to as the kinky date person. Sure. Um, but apart from them, I have like a handful of other people I have experienced kinky things with or actively am practicing kink. Right. Right. And then people are like, but you're asexual.

Like, what, what, why? You know, like, yeah. But my sexual orientation doesn't equate with my behavior. Mm-hmm. Like, it doesn't mean that I cannot have pleasure in kinky and or sexual context. Sure. Um, because it's a spectrum, like so many things in life,

[00:15:27] Dr. Nicole: right, right, right. And so, but yeah, relationship anarchy being about deconstructing the internalized power structures to be able to design your own relationships, right?

These people have a internalized structure of what kink is, and they're thinking it as sex. I, I guess in that context, which I think you and I probably both know that it's not, it can be erotic and sensual and expansive in so many different ways. And so they have these, these. Views of what kink is, the power structures that are within that.

Um mm-hmm. And so it's hard for them to kind of see past those internalized structures to imagine this other world of possibility of relating that isn't just strictly in, in sex. And even that you could get into deconstructing, like, where does sex begin and end? And I could nerd out in that conversation for hours in this space, like what even is sex?

Right? Right. Like I could truly get into that for hours if we wanted to have that, like meta deconstruct the whole word conversation. But I do think that that is actually a key part of relationship anarchy. Like what are these words? And often, um, sometimes there's this space within the relationship anarchy movement to not use labels because it creates space for more freedom, right?

If someone calls me their girlfriend, it. Naturally, I don't, I don't wanna use that word. It, because of our social conditioning, which is not natural because of our social conditioning, it often has a slew of other assumptions tied to it, right? And so if you use something like, this is my friend, it kind of liberates our unconscious from those assumptions that are often tied into that.

And so I often see in the relationship anarchy space that preference for those sorts of labels, like friend over boyfriend, girlfriend, even sometimes partner. It kind of liberates us from some of that. Um, is that something that you've experienced in your life?

[00:17:27] Momo: Uh, yes and no. Yeah. Um, for instance, one of my mentioned when we started trying to talk or like, define our relationship because they were like, I need a label.

Like I, I can, I cannot have. This weird thing of in between and no clear name for it. And our amazing worker around was defined as an undefined relationship. Beautiful. If that works, be

[00:17:53] Dr. Nicole: beautiful.

[00:17:53] Momo: Yeah.

It, it, it, and I mean, the relationship is still ongoing, so I guess, um, good for us. Mm-hmm. But now she kind of refers to me sometimes as her girlfriend thing, and I sometimes refer to them as my girlfriend as well, but it's not like it hasn't really been a big thing for either of us.

Sure. Yeah. Uh, whereas in the beginning I was very, very aware to that word. Like I had one person who was somewhat relevant to my, in my life for some months, and they had accidentally called me their girlfriend. I was like, no, you, you don't call me that. I, I don't want to be put into that category in the context of that person specifically, because that person was.

Sis guy. And to, at that point I was still very, it cis female red. Mm-hmm. So it would also fit in this like heteronormative norm think. And I was like, no, I don't want that.

[00:18:54] Dr. Nicole: Right. Too confining.

[00:18:55] Momo: And I've had discussions with one friend who is like, between this, like, what is a normal friend and what is a partner?

Or like, where would you draw the line in between where they, for instance, shared with me that they, you call everyone a friend because of this liberation of like a friend being possibly everything from friends with benefits to friends with almost no contact to friends that you see every day at work.

Right. And I think for myself, I, I haven't really decided on the, this is the one approach I want to go for. Sure. Yeah. And it depends more on each of the relationships and also on the context where I bring these relationships to.

[00:19:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely right. It's the freedom to, as you said at the beginning, right?

Change is the only inevitable. So you might use this label today and in two years be like, Hmm, no. You know? Yeah. I think what's more important is to have that continued. Uh, conversation with whoever you're using that label with. Right? Hey, I refer to you as my partner. I'm curious, when you hear that label, what sort of assumptions does that bring up for you about our relationship and what sort of assumptions does it bring up?

For me, I think that's much more of a collaborative, consent based, expansive conversation about we wanna use this word and let's talk together about what that means and what's under that label, again, can change over time. Mm-hmm. And even the label can change. Right? And so, um, it's funny because it's, it's a word, right?

A word, but as human beings, we are meaning making creatures, right? And so these labels are. So important. You know, we can cry over these labels, right? And so the feelings that are connected and rooted to that are often in a question of where do I belong in your world? How important am I? What sort of expectations do we have, right?

And so, yeah, there's no one way to do that. I hope people can get into deeper conversation with one another about what those labels mean. And then often, yeah. Mm-hmm. Sometimes we have to code switch in different spaces. And so if I don't feel safe in a space, maybe I say this is a friend, right? To protect myself and that person, depending on what the space is, right?

And so getting into some of the fluidity and the political nature of this is a really important practice of relationship anarchy. Yeah. Yeah. And so we're kind of getting into how we practice, but that is the second question. So I'll ask you more directly, which is, how do you practice relationship anarchy?

[00:21:35] Momo: I think in the way that I have decided to freely love people in the way I want to. Mm-hmm. And that results to the fact that I have four people that I have a committed relationship with. Mm-hmm. Um, two of those being siblings of mine. Mm-hmm. And two of them being people I met somewhere somehow at some point in my life.

Mm-hmm. And with those four people I have individually, like defined what does commitment mean for us. Right. In that context, for me, for instance, one relevant part is that we have regular meta talks where we talk about the relationship and reflect, okay, how are we doing in this relationship? Do we want to continue, how do we want to continue?

Are there things we want to change? Or like, are there things that we're not comfortable with? And where we like also generally check in with each other. It's a bit connected as well to like. If you're familiar with the concept from the Multi Mori podcast with the radar talk radar,

[00:22:32] Dr. Nicole: yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

[00:22:33] Momo: It's kind of inspired by that as well. Great. And then I have in the words of a friend of mine, an army of friends,

um, where I have very, like, I think in general I practice my friendships with a lot of emotional intimacy. Mm-hmm. To the extent that some of my friends, I only see once or twice a year, if at all. But it's still like, there, there is this solid bond of us knowing if something happens, we can call each other and we will be there.

[00:23:05] Dr. Nicole: Beautiful. Yeah.

[00:23:07] Momo: And then there are some friends that I see regularly. Then there are some friends that I see irregularly, but I have phone calls in between some friends that I'm kinky with, some friends I'm sexual with some friends. I'm both sure or neither. Um, and. Within that context. Also kind of allowing myself to experience love in a lot of various ways.

Mm-hmm. I am part-time, very active in the Case Computer club, which is like, I don't know if you've heard of it before. Mm-hmm. No. Uh, anarchist Computer Science in Nerdy Hacking Group. Cool. Um, like it's quite big in the international frame. There's like about 15,000 people Wow. Who are connected to that at least.

[00:23:58] Dr. Nicole: Okay.

[00:23:59] Momo: Uh, and there are like big events happening over the year, like the Congress in December where up to I think 15 people, thousand people can come. Wow. That's what, yeah. Um, and then you have like other events happening throughout the year where like between 50 and 500 people show up, uh, at one of those gatherings.

For instance, I had an encounter with a person. Who I ended up talking at a campfire and we ended up talking until 5:00 AM and cuddling and also having these moments of like very intense eye contact. Yeah. And them being just genuinely happy, having their head on my lap and me like stroking their head and it felt so loving.

Yeah. And then also knowing that it's okay that this connection in that moment is very intimate and very loving and beautiful. And it's okay that tomorrow I will leave, I will go back home and I'll probably never see that person again. Sure. Or like only like in three months at another event if they happen to show up there again.

Right, right, right.

[00:24:59] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. So embracing intimacy in the moment when it's there, allowing it to unfold for each individual connection of what speaks to you and that person in the moment. Mm-hmm. And I really appreciate you talking about family as a part of your committed relationships because before we had started the recording, you asked me how did I get into this research and what spoke to me and I had said.

It was a part of my sexual liberation journey and healing from trauma, and so I came in from the polyamory lens, and so I saw relationship anarchy as an extension of that, doing it in non-hierarchical ways, and getting into my dissertation, I had one of my participants mention how they did relationship anarchy with.

They're children, right? And so I was like, right, it's not about sex, right? It's about all, all relation. Oh, you know, I had such a myopic lens on it. 'cause I was coming from polyamory world, right? So to hear, I'm sure there are some listeners who hear that, and I'm like, what? Like you have a commit? What? You know.

But I think this is a part of the discussion that needs to be had, is that relationship anarchy is not about the sexual relationships, right? It's not about that as the highest form of intimacy. And so when you take that off, it means that we're looking at all of our relationships, including our sibling biological bonds or children, all of that, right?

And how can we examine the power structures that are so implicit in our world and in our unconscious to liberate ourselves from that? That's all relationships. And so I love to hear that part of your committed practice is with your siblings as well, and that in those relationships, there's a lot of intentionality and reflection of.

Do we like how we're showing up, what's going well? What do we need to change? Again, it sounds like an ongoing consent conversation

[00:26:47] Momo: mm-hmm.

[00:26:47] Dr. Nicole: About the relationship and the fluidity of that. And I mean, that's, that's really powerful. I think so many people could benefit from bringing that level of intentionality into their relationships.

I, I keep saying that in my career. I have two big goals right now. Maybe I'll get more, uh, but right now I'm like, I wanna end rape culture and I really wanna invite the world to reflect on the fact that we all have multiple relationships. Mm-hmm. And that as the starting point of our discussion about relationships and healing and community.

[00:27:22] Momo: Yeah. I think there's like several stories in my head right now. Mm-hmm. Sure. Yeah. Um, the first one I would go back to with the relationship with my siblings. Mm-hmm. Um, because I, I just think it's a very beautiful thing. Yeah. Um, one of them actually like. They also practice non-monogamy. Um, and it's kind of funny because the two of us kind of shifted to the non-monogamy around the same time as well.

Mm-hmm. I kind of got into it because I, I had been in a four year long monogamous relationship at first mm-hmm. With another cis man. Mm-hmm. And during that relationship, one of the constant issues he had was that I was platonically cuddling with my siblings and or close friends. And to me that didn't make sense because I was like, yeah, but I've been cuddling them before I met you.

Sure. And I will continue cuddling them. Sure. And I don't understand why, why that is an issue to you. And from there on we kind of discovered the non-monogamy together. Sure, sure. Um, so yeah, that's one thing. And then on the story you mentioned with people being surprised about or like realizing that relationship anarchy is not.

About sexual relationships or only sexual relationships, right? Is how often when a stranger who has no idea about relationship, he asks me, okay, well what is this about? The first thing I say is the philosophy of believing that you have a connection or relationship with everybody. Like I have a relationship with a bus driver.

Sure. When I get on the bus, the relationship consists of the consent that they drive me to from A to B, and I will get off, right? And I will be say, friendly and say goodbye, thank you, and get off and leave the bus. Right? But there was a connection or a relationship of some sort, or I have a relationship with my coworkers.

I have a relationship with the training person from my company who was in charge of me for the last year, and that all these relationships matter. And like, oh my God, one of the things that upset me the most is when people come and claim that they've never had any relationships in their life. Right?

Yeah. Because I'm like, yikes, no. Yeah. Maybe you didn't have good relationships. That's very likely. Maybe you didn't have healthy relationships, also very likely, but you must have had some sort of relationship, whether it was with classmates, with teachers, with friends, or non friends with bullies. Even if like that, that was a relationship too.

Not a healthy one, not a beautiful one for sure, but it is relationships. Mm-hmm.

[00:29:57] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. I mean, humans, when we are born, cannot thrive immediately on our own. There are definitely other species on this planet that, um, become much more independent, faster than the human species, which takes many, many years before you can even, you know, be able to thrive on your own.

And so any person. On this planet right now, you've had a relationship before and most likely continue to have multiple Now even the person that lives in that cabin, in the woods, in the middle of nowhere, that is completely by themselves. You know what? They probably have some sort of companion, whether that's a pet, and even beyond that, you know what?

They have a relationship to the natural world. What a concept. Which also has wisdom, right? Exactly. And also has wisdom to impart. And even then, like you know, the um, language that you use to have your concept of self is still formed from the connections of all the other people who created that language.

And that language also shapes how you conceptualize. It's like the se for hypothesis, whatever, blah. Your language creates how you. Think, right. So even those labels you were talking about in German, right. That conceptualizes the possibilities and the English language. There's, you know, friend, best friend.

Cool. Got it. Great. Love it. You know, like we just, there's often not that spectrum there. Um, and so yeah, I'm, I'm just hearing, you know, the importance of no one is an island and understanding that and then unpacking all these different social norms around, um, intimacy. Right. Hard for some people. Again, snuggling is something that you would only reserve for a romantic partnership.

You can even thinking, uh, think about spaces where like kissing on the cheek is a normal part of an interaction of a hello goodbye in some cultures mm-hmm. In America you might be called cheating if you do something like that. Wow. You know, and then in even some other cultures, um, contact of any sort of physical contact between people of different genders is considered, um, taboo and inappropriate and wrong.

Right. Or just even thinking about a person.

[00:32:21] Momo: Sure. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like I have a friend, or I used to have a friend who is very, very dogmatically Catholic. And from her perspective, like even thinking about another person in a potentially sexual and or romantic way. Would be considered cheating on their current partner.

Yes. And I was like, but you're not acting on it, girl. Like, well, there's a difference between thoughts and action.

[00:32:54] Dr. Nicole: Well, Momo, I would tell you, for me, you asked again like how I got here. The trauma comes from me all the way back from purity culture. And so I too was a part of that belief system where, uh, okay, the literature of the Bible would say that if you've thought about murdering some, um, if you've thought about hating someone, you've already committed murder in the eyes of the Lord, right?

And so if you think about lusting, you've already committed it. And so I too was deeply in that paradigm and I. It's extremely hurtful, I will say, as a therapist, because it creates such paranoia of your thoughts, right? It's important, like you're saying, to acknowledge that as human beings, we're gonna have hundreds of thousands of random thoughts and we are not attached to them.

That paradigm makes you feel very attached to them, and so the amount of, mm-hmm. To be a good Catholic, Christian, whatever fundamental religion, fill in the blank there, you have to thought monitor to such a level that I would. For myself, put the beginnings of my anxiety right there. Uh, and as a therapist, I see that now.

Um, and so yes, absolutely, even in some cultures, the thought which, which breaks my heart because when we think about desire being a neuronal pathway, right? We think about the neurochemistry of that. Um, when you really shut down that. Pathway and then you start to step into your sexual life and you're even in married in that context.

Say you're doing the marriage, heterosexual, monogamous thing, you've shut down that neuronal pathway so much that it's hard, you know, like it's, it's important to keep that active. Like what are the things that we are fantasizing about, desiring and craving? The more you flex that muscle, the more you're able to tap into that and create that in your life.

So, woo, I could, I could speak on that one for a lifetime and I probably will because that is the source of my trauma. So, woo. Yeah, exactly. That's how I got here. This really, the beginnings, right, is lots of pain and suffering and now trying to help other people not suffer as much. Yeah, and so we're hitting on some of the practicalities of how do you practice relationship anarchy.

I think something that I've been seeing in my own life as I live deeper into this practice is when you have this abundance of community around you and love in so many different ways, there are so many skills that we need to learn about having relationships across that stratification of proximity and life sharing.

Right? It's really. I'm not gonna say it's easy 'cause a lot of our time and culture we spend. No, no, that's not easy at all. It's actually incredibly hard because we don't practice that. Um mm-hmm. But if you think about like a prioritized relationship at the top peak, right? There's still a ton of stuff to process of like how do you show up in that relationship?

But even if we try and think about all the other relationships when we're taking off the lens of monogamy, which puts it at the priority, like you have to learn all these skills of how to deal with rejection, desire, communication of that desire, and then again, rejection it throughout that process of finding like where to orbit one another.

'cause it's not just this one person who's your everything and all this stuff and all of that. It's actually a stratification of so many different connections and the skills to learn how to deal with that desire, naming, rejection and fluidity, humbling, humbling.

[00:36:24] Momo: Yeah. And then there's insecurity kicks in too, right?

Yeah, absolutely. And other people's insecurities and Oh my God, yeah.

[00:36:34] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Mm-hmm. So, uh, a big journey to keep learning in that. And so I'm curious for you, if we move to the next question, why do you practice relationship anarchy? Why is this important to you?

[00:36:47] Momo: Primarily because it's a big resource.

[00:36:49] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Okay.

[00:36:50] Momo: Yeah. To me, as in like with this abundance of love and knowing that I am supported no matter what, like I had some really difficult times in the last couple of years.

Mm. And especially when I shifted to Relationshipy, I noticed that I was less scared of asking friends for support. Sure. Because I would know, okay, I can ask five different friends and. Chances of at least one of them having time and capacity is quite high. So in that way, it's a resource. And also the knowledge of, for instance, last weekend I had to go visit someone, which was very difficult for me because I have a very difficult relationship with that person.

And then I had the option within 10 hours to find people that could a physically meet me and hug me afterwards, or that I could call Yeah. And have like event with mm-hmm. And or in the end, someone spontaneously ended up crashing at my place anyway. So I was like, okay, I will come home and there will be another person I could snuggle.

I can hug them and we can talk about things if needed. Yeah. So really having this abundance of love is such a big resource for me on one way, like the psychological, uh, dimension, but also in the physical. One of, I know if I have a difficult or more difficult time where I struggle to get groceries, for instance, or I struggle to cook.

I can invite people to either come and cook for me Yes. Or to cook together because that makes it a lot easier for me. Or when I have to cook for someone else, it's easier for me to cook than if I have to cook for myself. Mm-hmm. Um, for the context I live by myself as well. Sure. So, um, in theory or like in theory I live alone, but in reality I don't really live alone because I have a lot of people visiting or like coming over.

Mm-hmm. So that was one part, and it's also very liberating for me. Yeah. And on the third part, which is kind of connected with the liberation as well for me, is also the healing aspect because I myself, uh, have experienced trauma in my childhood and in my teenage years and in my adult life. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Um, including sexual trauma as well. Mm-hmm. And having this freedom of. Experiencing as well, kinky relationships with different people in safer contexts. Sure. And with very different people, like people who are trans or artsy, but very educated on things. Um, people who are queer, people who are not really queer but interested in doing queer stuff.

Yeah. Um, but generally like this broad spectrum of experiences that these people bring with themselves and that they help me create spaces where I can discover and rediscover things, and also rewire things in my brain is very healing. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, I think that's the three parts. Yeah.

[00:39:58] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. It is such a liberatory practice.

I feel like it's one that will never have a completion point, right? There's no end point that we're gonna get to being like, I finish it, I've done it. I'm here. It's over. Right? It's, it's, it's much more expansive than that, right? Like what are all of the power structures, all the systems of oppression that are present in my reality, in my community, and then in my unconscious assumptions of relating, right?

And one of those is often the, I. Whew. I don't wanna say long lineage of capitalism 'cause it's actually much more recent of a concept when you look at our historical nature, right? So when we

[00:40:39] Momo: mm-hmm.

[00:40:39] Dr. Nicole: Look at, um, the privatization of property, right? And how that created this desire for monogamous control and passing down lineage where often Romans was found outside of the monogamous, passing a property down lineage, right?

But that whole paradigm with capitalism often says that. The resources should go to your blood and your family and your blood and your family and all this, right? And so part of this anarchist concept of mutual aid is really redistributing our resources across our community and not just this patriarchal lineage of bloodline to pass down the property, right?

Like what if I actually shared all of my resources to people who I am not blood related to or not, you know, monogamously married to, right? And so I hear you tapping into this much more expansive network of folks who have that value of sharing and showing up for people and not just the people that they're fucking and not just their own biological children, right?

Mm. What if we had much more of a community view? What a better place would that be? I like to see that world. I like to work for that world. It's so important. Yeah, definitely. And so for you and for myself included, I'm sure many listeners who are tuning in, right, it's about that discomfort at first to reach out, you know, and say, Hey, will you watch my cat for the weekend?

Right? And to say that not just to your romantic, sexual, or whatever partner, because you think that's the person I can come to with all of this request and vulnerability of that request, it's actually what if I lean on all of the people in my network and find out who could meet me there, right? That takes a lot of vulnerability for some folks who feel like the only way that you could have that level of care and attunement is in a romantic sexual.

Box partner, which is also like very heartbreaking when you think about our understanding of community. It's like you can have a thousand friends on Facebook or Instagram or whatever, maybe I shouldn't even say those names. You can have a thousand friends on social media, right. And, uh, not a single person to watch your cat when you're gone.

Like, we're in a very isolated space, which is heartbreaking. And the amount of suffering and, and pain that, that leads to for our mental health is profound. Right. And so I, I hear you tapping into a different frame of relating, which includes resource sharing and that concept of mutual aid.

[00:43:11] Momo: Yeah. That just reminded me of a story where I asked a friend that that is like more of this, like I see them once every few months.

Maybe once or twice a year. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Friend. Yes. Um, where I needed to transport my motorbike from. A place behind the mountains, far, far away to where I live now. Uh, and I was like about a five to seven hours drive. That's really, and I told them, Hey, I need to transport my bike. I haven't driven my motorbike in one and a half years, so I don't feel safe going by myself.

Would you feel comfortable to join me and like sit on the back? Because it has like two chairs and I have like a second helmet, I have a second jacket, I have a second pair of trousers. So I have like protection gear that you need. You just need to wear like high boots, like hiking trip boots or something like that.

So your ankles are protected. But everything else I got you covered. And they were like, sure. Yeah. And I was like, oh my God. Like you literally trust me with your life. Yeah. Yeah. That person had not been on a bike for longer than 10 minutes in their entire life before it. Wow. Yeah. Seven. And they went on that drive with me for seven hours and we got home safely and I was just like, okay, like this is a love, like this is just a confession of love.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And the amount of trust and yeah, just love in that way. That is so beyond

what, for instance, my parents would imagine friends could be like Right. Is is truly. Amazing.

[00:44:46] Dr. Nicole: It is amazing. I love that for you and then also the heartbreak for all of the past generations who couldn't fathom that level of multiplicity of love and care. Oof. But looking forward to the future here, you know?

Yes. How beautiful and the vulnerability of that ask. Right. I think some people, it's just an ask. It's not that hard. Just ask them to go on the motorbike. Just ask them to watch your cat. And it's, it's hard in a society where we're getting so digital and, and the ideas of rejection, you know, are, are getting harder and harder to work through these like basic human skills, truly.

Right?

[00:45:27] Momo: Yes. And at the same time, I realized that actually often when you do take that leap of asking someone, the chances of them being responsive is quite high. Sure. Like I, I have a friend in my life who is like, yeah, Momo, you, you just. Have this amazing network of amazing people who love and support you and who is like amazingly queer and cool and polyamorous, but I don't, yes.

I don't have those people in my life. And I'm like, yes. But also that network doesn't just appear from nowhere. Like this is built on me also having invested into those relationships of having checked in on those people and having built a relationship to some extent and also having taken those leaps of trust of asking them or like being like, Hey, I'm struggling with this.

Could you help me? Mm-hmm. Um, which was very, very scary for me in the beginning. Right. Especially post breakup when the four years long monogamous relationship, which was very intense. Yeah. And the like cut of not having any more. This one person where I would constantly share a lot of things of my life with.

Right. But at the same time, I think this is something I would want to give other people on their way to like. On one hand, check in with themself of like, what do I want and what do I need and where would I like to have support? Mm-hmm. And then asking oneself. Okay, so who could I ask for support? Yeah. Um, I don't know, like you are probably aware that the mutual aid context comes from the disability justice movement.

Sure. Mm-hmm. And anarchy generally? Yes. Yeah. And anarchy as well, but like kind of interwoven in that way? I have, or I'm currently reading the book, um, the FUT is Disabled. Mm-hmm. And in their geo author references as well to the concept of pot mapping. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that one from the like Sharing resources, bay Area Transformative Justice Collective, which is basically like making a graph of Okay.

In the middle there's me and then there's like different people who I could ask for support and like writing down what they can help me with and what I could help them with. Mm-hmm. Which doesn't have to be the same, um, value. Like for instance, I don't know, in my pod I could have one person who would come get groceries for me and in exchange I would listen to them about emotional stuff.

[00:47:54] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:47:55] Momo: Like that's the support I can give them in return. And then you have bubbles with people that are not yet pod people. Um, but people that you could establish a relationship with or that you could talk about, Hey, I would like you to be a PO person for emergencies in my life. Would you like that too?

And how could we do that? Where you can like build those conversations. Then you have the communities that you have around yourself, like the collectives of like the activist collectives, anarchist groups, um, I don't know, reading circles, whatever. Mm-hmm. The different local communities that exist in your place, I guess.

[00:48:35] Dr. Nicole: Right. Sounds very relationship anarchy, relationship anarchy, smorgasbord, designing, connection, support feels all very intentional ways to be in community, to share resources and ways that are outside of the capitalistic structure of energy exchange through money. Right. And so, yes, it's so profound to be seen these more expansive ways of relating in your community and yeah, I think that so many people.

We need that kind of circle of love and care. And I find that to be one of the richest resources truly in our world, right? There's a certain level of money that is needed under these structures to survive and have the basic necessities of living. And then when you're there, the community of people that you need becomes so essential for your quality of life.

And so that friend who says, I don't have that, right? Like, that's a real pain point that often contributes to significant mental illness in terms of, um, the DSM words of anxiety, depression, all these other words that I tried to scrub my mouth of, and, uh, really coming back to a lack of community and difficulties with the nervous system, right?

And so. The thing is though, with, I would imagine that community that you're in, kind of like my communities, uh, there's always that space to invite more people, right? Whenever I go to a potluck or an event, they're like, bring your community. And so if that person says, Hey, I don't have that. You do. Well, great.

Come to the next potluck with me. Come meet all those people. They're very nice. Introduce yourself and start showing up, right? Like it's, uh, often I find these spaces are not such hard closed doors of you're in or you're out. It's much more open and fluid as long as you, um, come in with good intentions and have values.

Right. It's a very open space in that way, at least in the communities that I've ran through. Yes and no. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Ideal. Ideal.

[00:50:39] Momo: Um, I mean, one of the people that is like part of my committed relationships mm-hmm. Is disabled with like strong social anxiety as well. Sure. Um, and them needing several or like.

They just need certain access helps. Yes. And at least from our experience, like, I don't know, kink meetups or like pooley meetups, they do have certain barriers as well. Mm-hmm. Like they often meet up in cafes. Mm-hmm. So you need to have money, right. You need to be able to afford going to those places. You need to be able to afford a train ticket to go to those places.

This person in my life, they need to have a support person who can go there with them. And for at least the first three or four meetups, they will not be able to talk much by themself because of their social anxiety. So yes, in theory, they, they are open spaces and people can come and like meet new people, but at the same time they also struggle with accessibility.

And there also is a lot of ableism and there also is a lot of racism in those spaces. Absolutely. And depending on where you are, you also have ageism, you have queer phobia in the way of, or, or like. I have myself also experienced places where I would go that were o officially queer, but then people would be confused about me being ace.

Mm sure. Or a romantic and asexual and me, and having to justify why I would exist in that space or why I would be there. Mm. And I would be like, okay, cool.

[00:52:08] Dr. Nicole: Right. A lot of labor on your part.

[00:52:10] Momo: Yep. Yeah.

So in theory, yes, but also no.

[00:52:15] Dr. Nicole: Right, right. That's the, uh, the gratitude for where we're at and the need for even more work, right.

Which is the reality mm-hmm. That all of these spaces, like we were saying, right, that lifelong practice, there is always gonna be work to make these spaces more accessible, more open, more equity, right. To be able to meet all different types of people. Right. And so as we dream of that. Uh, another world is possible, right?

We are actively doing that work, and I think that's an important invitation for all of the listeners. And whenever I'm trying to talk about relationship anarchy and other podcasts to talk about. Yeah, check in with your circle. Is it all one ability? Is it all one race? Is it all one age? Is it all one?

Sexual orientation? Right? Check in with that. What's going on there? All one class, right? Like, we can go to all the different isms, right? And like those, that's an essential part of relationship anarchy, to be checking in with your community and examining those factors because those are the internalized power structures and you're unconscious if you're not looking at it, right?

And so I appreciate that reality, that yes, there are those spaces and also there's still so much more work needed to make these spaces more accessible. It's so true. Yeah. Deep breath for that one. Yeah. And so I'm thinking the next question is, how does relationship anarchy impact your practice of intimacy?

Uh, I think

[00:53:48] Momo: I kind of mentioned that in the beginning of this conversation. Mm-hmm. Yeah. A bit with like, it broadening my perspective on intimacy. Yeah. A funny little anecdote is, uh, where I met a friend of a person that's close to me and to the friend. I kind of explained what relationship energy means and how I practice and like experience a lot of intimacy with a lot of different people.

And this friend looking at me like, wait, what does intimacy mean for you? Yeah. Because for me, that's basically sex. And then me realizing how much I am in my own bubble. Yeah. Where it has become so normal that intimacy is such a broad thing of just. Feeling very closely related to a person. Maybe that's a better rephrasing of the word that doesn't include sex, or it doesn't have to be sexual.

Yeah,

[00:54:35] Dr. Nicole: absolutely. That's a, I'm not sure if Esther Perel coined this term or not. I will need to do some research on it, but she always talks about intimacy as into me, you see? Right. So the ability to be seen witnessed the vulnerability of that. Right. The eye contact, right. Hearing. Mm-hmm. Uh, and so it's something that I experience with.

All types of relationships. Platonic, sexual, biological, right. Ideally, we all need more intimacy to be seen. Really. It's almost, uh, it reminds me of the conversation about the erotic right, which I think about writers like Audrey Lorde and expanding beyond the view of the erotic is just. Sexual Right. And much more of life force passion and sensual embodiment.

Right. And so yeah, I think this is really the heart of relationship anarchy is these words and the meanings and the way they show up in our life and expanding them, getting into the nitty gritty and really looking at how we often have boxes or very narrow ways of understanding what it means to be in an intimate relationship, and then deconstructing that to see so much more, right?

There's a lot of fear of that, like what is intimacy if it's not this right? But when you deconstruct that box, you get this whole white canvas of ways of relating. It's no longer that paint by numbers. It's the full white canvas. Which can be scary 'cause it's like, wow. Mm-hmm. That's a lot. That's a really big canvas.

Where do I start? Right? But also what beauty, right. To expand the possibility. And so that frame shift is, is truly something that I've talked about as almost like the huge saturation, right? If you thought of intimacy as just sex, right? And then we break down that box, you almost turn up the saturation of color to start seeing all the intimacy and all these different areas of life.

And, and I hear so many relationship anarchists speak to the joy of that, of like, wow. Like I thought it was just this one thing and this one relationship, and actually it's everywhere. How cool, right? Mm-hmm. So there's a lot of gratitude that comes forward with that.

[00:56:45] Momo: Yes. And like also the, I I, I really relate the part of being seen Mm mm-hmm.

As being, uh, a component of intimacy. Yeah. As in also. Last week I went on a holiday with three other people who are very important to me. Um, who themself. They, they were all connected by me, kind of. Mm-hmm. So we, by jokingly also called it Momo's Holidays because it was like, yeah, it's my holiday. You're all here because of me.

Sure, sure. It's like your birthday. Yeah. Um, but over the days they started to relate to each other and there was so much love. Yeah. And one of them was like, yeah, I don't think I've ever been on a such a loving holiday in my life before. Beautiful. Where it was like, there were moments of me brushing somebody else's hair or me giving a massage to someone while the other people were also present in the room and witnessing it, or mm-hmm.

Then giving me a massage in return. Yeah. Or like someone could cooking for us because everyone else was exhausted. And, and like the cooking being an act of love as well in that context. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That was really beautiful.

[00:57:52] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And the joy of that in your body when you feel that sort of loving open space, the energetics of that are very healing and expansive chest opening in that way when you feel safe to express yourself and and be in that loving circle and moments of connection.

And yeah. The next question is gonna take you in a bit of a different pathway, but we'll get back to the joys. We'll get back to the joys. The first question are, what are the difficulties? What are some of the hard things that you've learned in your practice?

[00:58:25] Momo: The first big struggle for me was dealing with my own stigma, especially with the fact that the way I got into relationship energy was through three people who were 12 to 14 years older than me and me feeling very weird about hanging out with people who are significantly older than me in a regular time context.

Yeah. But then also seeking those conversations with those three people about power dynamics in our relationship and the dynamics that come with me being significantly younger than them. Mm-hmm. At least biologically. Yeah. Speaking and then deconstructing that actually the age gap is in, in and of itself is not the problem, but the power dynamics.

And as long as we are aware of that and consciously talking about that and reevaluating how the power changes and develops in that relationship, that it's okay. But that was one of the first big struggles. Then I also struggled a lot with stigmatizing myself, which starting to have sexual relationships with several people at the same time being like, yeah, I'm such a slut, and like, yeah, I'm a slut and it's okay.

Right. Yeah. Lifelong journey. Yeah. What's the problem with that? Yeah. Um, and kind of embracing that, and I think a struggle that is still ongoing for me is. Especially when I am connected to so many different people on different levels, uh, I tend to lose myself because I am very aware of what everybody else needs and wants and is insecure about and what they potentially would like to do in the future.

[00:59:59] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[01:00:00] Momo: And where I'm checking in a lot with those people, what they want and what they need, that I sometimes forget about asking myself, what do I want? Sure. And where are my boundaries and what are the things I want to do? And what are the things where I'm like, ah, actually I think it's one tr that that's too much traveling for me in that month.

Mm-hmm. And then sticking to myself and my boundaries. Sure.

[01:00:20] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Absolutely, man. Yeah. I feel that one, having all of my lovers together in one space, being like, are you okay? Are you okay? Are you happy? You good? You happy? You good? Mm-hmm. Good. You good? It's like, all right, I have a self too. And that for me definitely comes back to my biological family roots that I continue to unpack in therapy every week.

Yay. Yay. Um, right. And so it, it's interesting how the multiplicity of relationships can highlight other spaces where you've held multiplicity, maybe like family dynamics, right? And. Man unpacking the sexual narratives. What a, what a cultural journey of power there. There's so many systems there that are so deep within all of our unconscious that make it so hard to embrace that with joy and freedom and liberation and pleasure.

And so that feels like, again, for me, a lifelong journey of unpacking all of that stuff that is in there. And I love unpacking it. I love nerdy, now, I love creating this podcast because that's all of what we talk about is like, how do we release that shame? Because where did that come from? Historically, we did not.

Practice monogamy biologically. When you look at all of the different species, it's actually very rare when, even if you wanna go the evolutionary route in terms of what are we most like Bonobos, they have sex for social pieces. Now, that doesn't mean to say that you can't have sex with one person. There are periods of my life where I have, right.

And there's beauty in that too, right? But the fact that when we wanna move into the other. Space. There's so much shame and weight and difficulty. That's a reflection of a lack of liberation. Right. Um, even in like, uh, a good example I think of that is even like the feminist movement that has worked so hard for years to say that you don't have to have kids to be a good person.

Right. And even today there are still people grappling with that. If I don't have children, am I meaningful? Am I a good person? Am I failing? Right? And we're still having to fight for that liberation to say that the other side is okay. And so until we're in a space where you can be as slutty as we can possibly imagine without guilt, like there is so much liberation work to get into that space.

And that's not to say that that's the space. It's perfectly great to have kids, perfectly great to not have kids fuck one person for, for the rest of your life. Great. I don't care. Fuck as many people as you want. But it's the liberation to make that choice that many of us don't have because of the social systems and the pressure.

[01:02:57] Momo: I think. Something that like reminded I I was just reminded of, um mm-hmm. On the weekend I rediscovered old diaries of mine. Mm. From when I was like 13. What a psychedelic trip and

[01:03:08] Dr. Nicole: whoa.

[01:03:09] Momo: Yeah. It was really funny because I found one entry from like a summer camp where I like was with other teenagers and I wrote in the question whether it's possible to be in love with at least two people at the same time.

And I was like, um, yeah, yeah. You were on the path.

I started asking a good question at the. Good time already. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Glad I wrote that down.

[01:03:39] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I have so much joy for the future generations. I know there's lots of questions about where all our world is moving, especially in America. So glad you're not over here. Mm-hmm.

Uh, it's okay over here. Um, and, but generally speaking, the cat is out the bag to a certain level of degree. You know, the, the seventies liberation with birth control and changing the paradigms of sex for pleasure and all of this, right? Mm-hmm. The younger and younger generations, I think they're gonna be asking more of these questions, especially when there's content like.

This podcast, there's people like you, there's people like me who are living this. It's definitely gonna spark even more of those questions from a younger age. And I'm so excited to see how far they take the torch in ways that you and I could not even imagine because of our cultural context of our age and generations and what that creates for us.

And so I'm so excited for them. Which I think is a good segue into our next question, which is what are some of the joys of relationship anarchy for you?

[01:04:36] Momo: I think that adversity of connections. Mm-hmm. And being able to discover all of those things that are so unimaginable or have been unimaginable for me.

And I'm pretty certain that, I mean, I'm, I'm still very young. I am not even 25 yet. Like I'm, I'm below that age somewhere. Sure. And I already have such intimacy and such a variety of relationships and connections with people. Where I am, honestly, very excited to see what the future still has to hold for me.

Yeah. In that regard. Mm-hmm. Because I'm pretty sure that I haven't seen everything yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Confident in that one. Mm-hmm. Um, but I think, yeah, that, that is definitely a big joy and also experiencing intimacy in a lot of different ways. I think that that's another big joy. Absolutely.

And the freedom of choosing what I want to do with my life and with my relationships, and how I want to live those relationships.

[01:05:46] Dr. Nicole: Right, right. The expansiveness of it. All right. The possibilities are truly endless when we're having these sorts of conversations and, uh, when we're deconstructing all of these assumptions of where we're meant to go, the possibilities are endless of all the other ways that we can create life and structure and meaning making, and it's, you know, you gotta find good people to do that with, right?

That's a key part about similar people who are on that journey wanting to do that same thing, right? Because that's a really key component of this is, um, the possibilities are endless when you're in community that has that same value structure. And I, I love to hear that abundance of opportunity that, you know.

I, I personally in my relationship find so much security in knowing that no matter where we go, there will be a conversation. It's not this harsh breakup and over and done, we're gonna have lots of conversations, which can be exhausting at times. We gotta draw boundaries. How long can we process all this hours?

Right? And so setting boundaries at that. Yep. Yep. Learn lessons, right hours. Mm-hmm. Um, but the fact is that we will continue to reorient rather than break up. We will continue to find ways to be in connection. Right. Um, as long as we're not actively. Hurting each other. And then we can get into conversations about restorative justice and what all of that looks like.

Right? Um, but we are actively committed to that process of finding ways that are relating, that are mutual, right? And that gives me so much security because there's not gonna be this moment where they just run out the door. Why would there be when there's that open conversation? Sure. Maybe they get pulled to a job opportunity or maybe there's some other part of life that they get drawn to, but that coming back to that space of joy for them, if that's really what they're called to, right?

And to support our partners from that, um, selfless way of supporting their own spiritual development To quote. Bell to mention bell hooks and the work that she's done, right?

[01:08:00] Momo: Mm-hmm.

[01:08:00] Dr. Nicole: Like, I find that to be so, uh, secure and love and loving and expansive. That, and deeply erotic for myself. Uh, but all of that, I, I, those are some of the things that I wish other people knew about relationship anarchy.

And so, for our last question, I'm curious, what do you wish other people knew about relationship anarchy?

[01:08:24] Momo: One thing that is really important to me in that context is the knowledge that, especially in relationship anarchy, people actively choose to stay in those connections. Yeah. Yes. Um, like, uh, my godmother when I had a call with her and like.

Disclosed to her that I was living in a polyamorous constellation. She was very worried. She was like, yeah, but I really don't wish, like I, I'm scared that all these people will break your heart. Oh. And I was like, I mean, honestly, the chances of them breaking my heart is red low. Because before it gets to that point, we will have so many conversations about, like, like you mentioned before, like there's this commitment and this decision to practice consent, not just in a sexual context, but like in the, I'm consenting to this relationship level where it's actually truly beautiful, that I know these people have chosen to stay in my life and I have chosen to stay friends, right?

They have chosen to be my pen or whatever, and that I can trust these people to continue having this sort of relationship. And if they, things change, and for whatever reason they don't want to have that, I can trust them to tell me that they want change or that they want to. Mm-hmm. Break up the relationship.

Right. Which has happened as well. Yeah. Like I had a flatmate with whom things escalated really horribly. Mm. And it ended up with her moving out and us not talking to each other ever since for an entire year. Mm. And that's okay too. Yeah. But overall, there is this choice, which gives me that safety in a way as well.

Yeah. Because if I compare it to my mono Gamma's relationship I had before, I think to some extent we also stayed in that relationship for a good deal of those years because it was a convention like we had already been together. We started having plans of moving in together, then we moved in with each other.

We lived together. Right. So it felt like we would have to continue because that's what happens. Yeah. The escalator and. Now I just know that no, none of those people who are in my life or who are important in my life feel obligated to stay in my life. And that we all do choose to love each other and to continue this what we have.

And that, that is very strengthening.

[01:10:54] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. The security of that, right? Yeah. Grandma.

I know. I told my, my grandma was like, when are you getting married? And I was like, I don't think I am. And you know, like, I just don't. And she's like, but what do you mean? Like, how are you gonna have security? What about health benefits? And I was like, grandma, I'm a doctor. Like I don't need this. Like, I don't.

I don't need this. And on top of that, I have so many student loans. I don't know if this is the best financial thing to legally mm-hmm. Like I have a lifetime of paying them off. First gen student. So fun. Um, but yeah, there's just such a paradigm shift as you're pointing to with generational divides.

Right. For her, for my grandmother, there's a certain view, and I mean. We can remember that women couldn't have credit cards until 1970. We can remember that marital rape was not illegal until 1993 because women were property, right? And so we can have a little bit of cultural understanding for where they're coming from and what they're thinking and how they're trying to keep us safe.

And also recognize that that is not the world we live in anymore. Right? And so we're doing a little bit of updating for them, hence where I'm so excited for those younger folks, as long as the world keeps moving towards a space of liberation, right? To see where they go with that. Because, yeah, there's so many possibilities here that we can tap into when we start to remove these expectations around relationships.

And so I think more people need to know that it's not just chaos, right? It's actually deep commitment and the security is found through that embrace of fluidity and change.

[01:12:44] Momo: I mean, there is a lot of chaos in the beginning, I think at least Right. When you're learning how to, and I'm still learning. It has gotten better, but I'm still learning.

I'll not say I'm done, ever. Oh gosh. I mean, like when I started practicing relationship energy, like I think about eight months in, I was like, okay, I think I got this. Like I started to learn how to navigate all of that, and then I was like, no, I don't think so. Right. The ego act, I think this is gonna be a constant struggle.

Yeah. But, um, I, I like with time people learning those skills Yes. Of like, what, what do I need? How do I want to maintain relationships and connections? And with that as well, the stability and safety comes. Mm-hmm. And I think maybe one thing I would want to share with other people is that there is a lot of educational material out there.

Like there are books, there are podcasts or videos. There are tiktoks, yes. And especially if someone doesn't know many people in their local community or space, because maybe they live in a rural place somewhere. Nowhere between the mountains. Yep. Um, or on an island, I don't know. Yes. Um, if you wish to practice relationship energy, you can have access to these resources.

Mm-hmm. And not be afraid of educating yourself because that, that as well that there is so much knowledge that helps you navigate all of that.

[01:14:10] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:14:11] Momo: Which is very valuable.

[01:14:12] Dr. Nicole: Yes, absolutely. There is so much. Right? It's, uh, that need for more always. Yes, please give me more. Yes, I need more of this content. Um, and there is already a lot out there, right?

I tapped into a lot of that in my dissertation of just the plethora of community resources that exist, as you said, often in social media spaces or on someone's website, right? Mm-hmm. There is a full community here that is global, truly a global movement, right? And that's a really important piece of this.

And so I think that's why it's so profound to have a podcast space like this, because a lot of that media, you know, it is written right? And so it's so powerful to have a dialogue together where we can get into not just the words of it, but also the lack. Like these moments where we can see each other and giggle of like, oh yeah, the ego death of thinking.

You got it figured out in eight months and then realizing, you know, you have some complex web of relational stuff and you go, wow, I still have a lot to learn, right? Like that laughter that we share and that is harder to see in the text and in short form media, we don't get into some of the nuance that we get to get into for a long conversation like this.

And so that's why I'm always so grateful when someone like you, like, you know, signs up to like, join me in this conversation. 'cause it really is a powerful movement. Space because people get to connect to you and your wisdom and your, your journey. And so I'm so grateful that we had the time to be able to like really dive into these concepts together and, and talk about this practice that is so, so, so, so meaningful, right?

And I really hope that people like continue that lifelong journey of exploration with these power systems and that you can find relationship anarchy content often, um, outside of even the name relationship anarchy, just studying relational skills, community building, studying powers of oppression. All of that is the heart of relationship anarchy too.

So we don't always have to just look for the labels. We can also look for those ideas elsewhere. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, it feels like we're coming to the end of the time together, and so I'll take that deep breath with you, uh,

and I'll check in and see if there's anything else that you wanna share with the listeners. Otherwise I can guide us towards a closing question. I think closing question is fine. Great. Okay. So the one question that I ask everyone on the podcast is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal to say, I love you.

Ooh, yes. I agree.

[01:16:55] Momo: Yes. Yes. I think that, that, that's something I have introduced into my circle of friends. Mm-hmm. Or like where I have normalized this. Yeah. Um, where at the beginning people were a bit confused because I would say like in German you have this thing of like, I like you. Which you can be, can be expressed in different ways verbally.

And then you have the I Love You, which is often very connected with this like romantic, sexual, more like relationship idea. And at some point I was just like, fuck this. I just tell my friends I love them because I do love them. Yeah. And some of them were wary, struggling with it in the beginning and like being confused about it and being like, yeah, but you know that I, I mean I like you, but it was like, yeah, I know, but I love you and that's okay.

You don't have to say, I love you too. Like that's fine. Right. But just normalizing that. Mm-hmm. And then hearing back from them at some point that they have now normalized that in their other circles as well. Yes. And how they appreciate that because it brings so much love and joy into their life. It's like, yes.

[01:18:05] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Right. The ripples, the way we transform one another, the way we expand Yes. One another. Right? Yes. So good. And, uh, why not spread more kindness, care, love, and to say that and to then even yeah, have that deeper conversation of what does I love you mean? I think that's a profound one, right? Mm-hmm. To have both for the person that is uncomfortable, right?

So that we can make sure we're on the same page. 'cause there's some feelings coming up. And also the one that's like, that's great. You know, I, I'd love to get into like, what I love you means. Right? And I think that's sort of the heart of relationship, anarchies, deconstructing language, getting into it, and then creating the meaning making.

And we can also let you know, we don't have to deconstruct everything of course, but I find so much joy in that I find so much joy in getting to the nuance of what love means and finding even more language for that. And so, mm-hmm. I think that's a really powerful invitation for me and for all of the listeners to say, I love you more.

Right? To spread more of that energy in the world. Yeah. Mm. Well, it's been such a joy to have you on the podcast today, Momo. Thank you for trusting me, and thank you for coming onto the show. Thank you for the invitation. Yes. And for having, yes, of course. Of course. If you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast, and head on over to modern anarchy podcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode.

I wanna thank you for tuning in, and I will see you all next week.