259.Year 5 with Dr. Nicole and Dr. Lydia

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole. On today's episode, we are celebrating year five of the podcast, y'all. Oh my goodness. It feels surreal, like straight up. Who was the girl who started this podcast five years ago? Wild. Wild. Ah, if you listen to my episodes from back then. Wow. Um, dear listener, it's like. Reading your old journals, you're just kinda like, who is this?

What were they? Hmm. Interesting. Um, my voice was so much like higher. I was like, welcome to Modern Anarchy. I don't know. You listen to it, come back, you listen to it and come back. I do think it's every orgasm, like straight up, every more liberated orgasm. I go deeper. Like my, I'm in my body more and I'm just like, yep, this is my voice.

Hey. Hello. Hey. Hello. Hi. This is me. And so I'm excited to keep growing and expanding in this space and to be celebrating five years of the podcast to all my listeners who have been here from the beginning. Hi. I love you. Oh my God, thank you for staying with me throughout this whole journey and exploring and expanding with me.

It has been quite the Wild ride. Some of you have joined the Pleasure Liberation Programs. It's been so cool to meet you, to get to know that you've been tuning in from the very beginning and. I am so excited for all the places that we're gonna go in a lifetime. 'cause I, I love this work. I love getting to do my work with clients and I'm so, so happy to be here.

So I will be in this space for many years to come. And I, yeah, I used to do like, um, if you listen to the old episodes, I would always do like a commitment. Like, oh, okay, I've done this for a year. I'll commit to another year. Uh, dear, dear listener, I feel confident I'll be here for a lifetime. As long as I'm breathing, living, you will see me, hear me in this space.

And so I'm really, really excited to be bringing you this episode and we. The special thing about this episode is that I have someone in my community, someone I care about, someone hold space for me, for me to really unpack and talk about what this journey has looked like. You know, every week I'm holding space for the guests on this show, and this is the one time a year where I asked someone to interview me.

And so this year I have my good friend, lover, Dr. Lydia, and you'll enjoy this episode. She is such a warm and beautiful soul and did such a good job holding space for me to unpack all of this and has believed in me ever since We've met each other and we've been each other's biggest supporters, and I'm really, really, really grateful for her to come on the show and to hold this space for me and for all of you to get to meet one of the beautiful people in my community.

And yeah, it's a. I've cried about this, I've laughed about it. I've giggled and all of the range of emotions. And just Jay listener, please know I love you out there. You're tuning in. I love you. I love where your heart is at. I love where your soul is at, and I love the things that you're passionate about because I know you're passionate about pleasure, liberation.

There's a lot to do in this lifetime. There is, and we are also making. Waves. We are making some big waves in this space. So cheers to five years together and here's to a lifetime more. Alright, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and free resources@modernanarchypodcast.com, linked in the show notes below.

And I wanna say thank you to all my Patreon supporters. You are supporting the long-term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content free and accessible to all people. So thank you and dear listener, I wanna let you in on some very, very exciting news. I hired a very lovely queer human to help me with this next chapter of stepping into video production.

So I just wanna say, and a special thanks to all my Patreon members who are supporting the show because I don't run ads. Anymore. I used to at the very beginning and stopped, what about a year ago at this point? And that means that the show, this step into video editing, that is all done because of the Patreon supporters.

So thank you. Truly thank you from the bottom of my heart for supporting me and this movement and the growth because we need more pleasure, liberation, education out there. We need to be able to see the faces, the laughter of our beautiful queer community. And so I am so, so delighted to be bringing on a queer video editor and.

Dear listener, if you've enjoyed Modern Anarchy, if you have ever gotten something out of this episode, I would love to have you support the show. Please support the show. There is a $5 membership a month or $10, and I send a handwritten card 'cause what a wild time with technology and ai. I still love to write handwritten thank you notes to all my $10 Patreon members.

So if you have enjoyed the show, please consider supporting us as we step into this next chapter of creating more pleasure, liberation education for all of you. So thank you for sharing this episode with your friends. Thank you for tuning in. And thank you for joining me for the last five years together.

And with that dear listener. Please know that I am sending you all my love, and let's tune in to today's episode.

Dear Listener, there's a space already waiting for you where you are invited to let go of every old script about sex and relationships, and begin living a life rooted in your pleasure. Empowerment and deep alignment. I'm Dr. Nicole, and this is your invitation to the Pleasure Liberation Groups, a transformative, educational, and deeply immersive experience designed for visionary individuals like you.

Together we'll gather in community to explore desire, expand relational wisdom, and embody the lives we're here to lead. Each session is woven with practices, teachings, and the kind of connection that makes real transformation possible. And I'll be right there with you guiding the process with an embodied curriculum that supports both personal and collective liberation.

This is your invitation into the next chapter of your erotic evolution. Say yes to your pleasure and visit modern anarchy podcast.com/pleasure practice to apply.

Kinda like walking into a therapy session. Like I don't know where you're gonna take me and what's gonna happen, but I'm surrendering to the experience and trusting you. So

[00:07:23] Dr. Lydia: year five high five high Five.

Five years. Jesus. It's longer than grad school.

[00:07:32] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, I know.

[00:07:36] Dr. Lydia: I know. And like no one in sight when, so you have enough recordings to what? Go till next year. 'cause last year during your four year recording, you said you were a year ahead.

[00:07:45] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, I have have stuff through September right now. So next week I'm flipping to the camera with my first recording with Dr.

Marie Toin. And from there that should be released the end of September, maybe early October. And so hence where I'm like hiring the video editor right now. And then I have to make all the B roll and intro and stuff like that. So it's like a whole other baby that I. But I mean, I have practically five months to do that, so I have to just take a deep breath and be like, yep, five months is more than enough time to do that.

But it feels like, ah, like, I dunno, you know, like any sort of change process. So.

[00:08:20] Dr. Lydia: Totally.

[00:08:21] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Okay. Well, ready?

You feel ready to formally dive in whenever that is?

[00:08:29] Dr. Lydia: Let's go.

[00:08:30] Dr. Nicole: Okay. Okay. Well, so I'm handing over the reins to you. Okay.

[00:08:36] Dr. Lydia: Well, welcome. Hello. Welcome to Modern Anarchy Today. Your host is Dr. Lydia

yes, yes. I'm stealing the reins. I'm borrowing them. Please do. We're sharing the in community. Do yes, yes, yes, yes. I'm so excited to be here for your five year anniversary. I am just so proud to know you and so proud to gush about you and brag about you. To my friends, like to hear your voice messages with all of your updates and behind the scenes,

[00:09:07] Dr. Nicole: 10 minute voice messages.

[00:09:09] Dr. Lydia: 14 minutes.

[00:09:10] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Hello. Hello. Hello.

[00:09:14] Dr. Lydia: Yeah. Right. Yeah.

[00:09:15] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah.

[00:09:15] Dr. Lydia: That's just so exciting. How are you feeling? Like, is there any feelings coming into this five year? Does it feel like it's been five years?

[00:09:24] Dr. Nicole: It didn't feel like five years until I listened to the year one.

[00:09:28] Dr. Lydia: Yeah.

[00:09:29] Dr. Nicole: Which I usually don't go back 'cause it's, it's just mm-hmm.

Tough. You know, it's like looking at your old journals when you look back and you're just like, oh God, where was I? Like mm-hmm. What was I doing? You know? And so I usually don't go back. And especially when I have listened to even just stuff that's like two years ago, my voice is so different. It's so much more like, hi, I am up here.

Like, welcome to Modern Anarchy. Like it's not embodied. I mean, and I'm sure when I continue to age it will get even more embodied, you know, and like deeper and fuller. But yeah, going back to the year one today, I, it's like, I almost don't wanna talk about it 'cause the listeners might then go listen to it, but that's.

Just what it is. That's just how life works. Yep. It's just,

[00:10:15] Dr. Lydia: oh, wow. I wish I listened to your year one. I listened to your year before, before this, and even knowing how much has transpired over this past year, it's been so much like, I wish I, I wish I knew you.

[00:10:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:27] Dr. Lydia: Yeah. The listeners listening me and, uh, Nicole met through a training program in Chicago.

We were both doing psychedelic assisted psychotherapy together. And to have another queer person in psychology and polyamory and psychedelics, I was like, I don't think I'm gonna find another human like this.

[00:10:46] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:10:46] Dr. Lydia: Uh, I need to keep her close.

[00:10:48] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. And we have.

[00:10:50] Dr. Lydia: Absolutely. Thus the,

[00:10:51] Dr. Nicole: because you moved

[00:10:52] Dr. Lydia: voice messages.

Yes. 'cause then I moved away, moved to New York. I'm currently in New York and about to start my practice here. So yeah, it's good to have people in all the big cities.

[00:11:02] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:11:03] Dr. Lydia: That community.

[00:11:04] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But yeah, when you find values align people, you know, you keep those connections. I know, you know, I do all virtual work and so sometimes people are like, ah, the virtual work.

But like when you have a connection with somebody and that level of understanding that transmutes so much of the distance. So like, yeah, of course we've stayed in contact, you know, so many different shared identities. So many different voice messages of like, oh, I went to this sex party and did this and it was so high.

You know, like just like,

[00:11:32] Dr. Lydia: yeah.

[00:11:33] Dr. Nicole: So much of the good, good

[00:11:34] Dr. Lydia: to share it with. And I'm glad you mentioned that because I feel like in the past year you've gone kind of global.

[00:11:39] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:11:39] Dr. Lydia: You know, like your. Amount of countries have increased your across state lines. You know, you have people engaged in your offerings from all different states.

[00:11:53] Dr. Nicole: I know,

[00:11:53] Dr. Lydia: and I, I feel like that's just part of your expansion too, is, is crossing these state lines where people's like. I'm in this very small town and Right. I have no one to when I found you.

[00:12:05] Dr. Nicole: Right. Absolutely. And from the psychologist perspective, that's so much to hold culturally just in terms of trying to understand like, oh, okay, this client's in New Zealand.

Like what is the cultural context of sex over there? Like what is there, like, it's just so many other worlds to tap into, but in a subject like sex, it's one of my favorite things. Like literally today I was in the, um, my pleasure liberation group and we were talking about desires and cross-cultural research and how that impacts our sexual desires.

And so yeah, when I start having clients across the world, truly, like it's impacting my cultural consciousness around cross-cultural experiences around this. And so, yeah, it's been. Really fun.

[00:12:47] Dr. Lydia: That's so fun. Has there been anything surprising that you've learned recently? Like anything, you know, that I should know about the sex cultures in New Zealand?

Because that's, you know, something that I, I don't really know. I consider myself a pretty cross-cultural person from the cultural identities that I hold, but

[00:13:02] Dr. Nicole: totally.

[00:13:03] Dr. Lydia: I've lived most of my life in the us Like, I don't really know what the vibe is over there.

[00:13:06] Dr. Nicole: Totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and like, no clients have monolith in that way.

So I, what I do think is interesting in terms of today we were, when we were talking about cross-cultural research, I had recorded one episode, I think it was in the last year, um, with the, or maybe it was a year and a half, who knows? At this point, it's all just blurring into one big five year experience, um, with the CFO of Ashley Madison.

Do you remember this?

[00:13:30] Dr. Lydia: Ooh, yeah. I remember you sharing this.

[00:13:32] Dr. Nicole: Okay. Which was such a thing. 'cause I was like, do I wanna put this person on my shirt? Your face is like, says it all. But every single friend I had was like, it's a journalistic opportunity. Go like, do it. It's a journalistic opportunity. And so, um, he had talked about how the place in the entire world, you know, 'cause that company is also global, like mm-hmm.

The highest users.

[00:13:56] Dr. Lydia: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:56] Dr. Nicole: Could you take a guess?

[00:13:59] Dr. Lydia: I truly couldn't.

[00:14:00] Dr. Nicole: Utah.

[00:14:02] Dr. Lydia: Oh, I shoulda have made that. Guess you were blinking at me twice, right? You were like wink, wink, wink.

[00:14:08] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, think about my Mormon family. No, I'm just kidding.

[00:14:11] Dr. Lydia: Yeah. But actually there, well that just reminds me, you know, like how Grindr crashes every time there's a conservative gathering, it just goes to show like how the more you suppress, the more that comes out.

In, in the dominant culture and it's, it's so fascinating.

[00:14:29] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:29] Dr. Lydia: I mean, you, your testament to that, like straight out of Mormonism mm-hmm. And Christianity and all of these beliefs, you've really kind of pendulum the other way.

[00:14:39] Dr. Nicole: Totally. Absolutely.

[00:14:42] Dr. Lydia: Is there, is there a way where you would ever pendulum back or do you feel like you're just

[00:14:49] Dr. Nicole: No, and that's, that's sometimes people have asked me the same thing about monogamy and the non-monogamy question, like, do you think you could ever pendulum back? And I'm like, there's no world, like,

[00:14:58] Dr. Lydia: no world

[00:14:59] Dr. Nicole: for me personally, it just would never, at least where I'm at now, I could never step into that frame of that binary.

Do you know what I mean? Like, I know, you know what I mean? Yeah. In the sense of like, where is the line? Like is snuggling kissing on the cheek? Like where, where would we like draw the line? And then the emotional, like I just could never, just as much as like, I could never go back to a frame of a he, him, God.

Who has a Jesus that's blue-eyed and white. Mm-hmm. Like that could never happen again. Like a deep understanding of spirituality. Like, do I find myself in times of my life where maybe I'm having sex with nobody but myself? Like, yeah, maybe. But like going back into the frame of monogamy or Christianity is.

Never going to happen. I feel pretty confident.

[00:15:45] Dr. Lydia: Yeah.

[00:15:45] Dr. Nicole: Unless there's a brain injury. Shocked.

[00:15:48] Dr. Lydia: I'd be shocked. Yeah.

[00:15:50] Dr. Nicole: Just can't,

[00:15:51] Dr. Lydia: modern anarchy is actually not anarchy at all. So anarchy that you go back to society.

[00:15:57] Dr. Nicole: Some people have said I should do that for like an April Fools, like first 1st of April. Just being like, so we're going back, I'm actually waiting till marriage.

You know, like

[00:16:07] Dr. Lydia: I've actually recommitted myself. Yeah. No, but in that way I guess it's like not really a pendulum then I, it becomes like a new baseline, like a kind of expansion of consciousness where, 'cause the pendulum kind of brings back this image of like eventually swinging in an extremist way to swing back.

But. Yeah, that doesn't, it just seems like you're continuing forward.

[00:16:29] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I mean, well, and we, we see that with other like systems of oppression, right? I mean, I guess there are people who do swing back, but like the woman who goes and gets educated, it's not like you then go back to being like, I want to be repressed and never educated.

Having no frameworks for like, how the patriarchy impact like impacts us. Like that's, you know, like

[00:16:48] Dr. Lydia: once you wake up you can't go back to bed,

[00:16:51] Dr. Nicole: good, bad or otherwise. 'cause sometimes it is hard 'cause you're like, damn, sometimes I look, you know, that's something that I would always go through where I look back on the previous journey and be like, it felt simpler.

Like

[00:17:02] Dr. Lydia: mm-hmm.

[00:17:04] Dr. Nicole: But then like when you actually look back at that time, I don't have any skills, you know what I mean? Like, I don't have skills. Mm-hmm. The frameworks, the communications, like every bit of the difficult journey I feel like really is communication skills, insight, ability to name, desires to deal with rejection.

[00:17:21] Dr. Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to not have those skills. Like, it may be simpler, but it's probably not easier. Exactly. Like, I would say, like, you gotta pick your heart. You know, I, I chose my heart and that was the heart of emotional labor of going into psychology. Like maybe my heart isn't physical labor, you know?

Yeah. I don't come home like exhausted in my body, but I come home exhausted in my heart, and

[00:17:45] Dr. Nicole: that's the part then impacts the body.

[00:17:48] Dr. Lydia: But then I'm like lying down, like completely like not Yeah. I'm like, why am I so exhausted?

[00:17:53] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Well 'cause you just heard a range of things in that day and trying to attune to people.

It's, it's a, a work in that way of like what you hold in your body. I feel like that that's one of the biggest things that no one really tells you when you start this sort of therapeutic work. Right. Is like, Hey, so your nervous system needs to learn how to carry

[00:18:11] Dr. Lydia: mm-hmm.

[00:18:12] Dr. Nicole: All of this and keep doing it.

Every day. Yeah. And like to see the systems of the world and keep showing up for your clients with like a grounded nervous system.

[00:18:23] Dr. Lydia: Yeah. How do you like talk about sex so much in a grounded nervous system? 'cause it is such a touchy topic that even when you bring it up, there's nervousness. Like with a client, obviously I feel comfortable bringing up sex because if I don't bring it up as the therapist Right.

My client's never gonna bring it up.

[00:18:42] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:18:42] Dr. Lydia: Right, right. You know, and even then I find myself as I'm about to ask a sex question, feeling a little nervous in my body. Mm-hmm. A little exposed, needing to take a deep breath. Um, and also not wanting to show that discomfort to the client in Right. Because I don't wanna communicate.

This is uncomfortable. Right. I wanna communicate this. This is good, this is, this is healthy.

[00:19:03] Dr. Nicole: Right? Absolutely. And then they can feel that, you know, they can absolutely feel that our clients are super intelligent, like they can feel when you're kind of constricted and not really saying that. Yeah.

[00:19:12] Dr. Lydia: They're like, so like you having sex versus like something about your sex life.

You know, like that's an important part of any relationship. You know, we're in couples counseling, it's been six months and you haven't brought up sex. I'm about to bring it up.

[00:19:26] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:19:27] Dr. Lydia: But is there anything that, like you do, like, do you do like somatics, like after sessions? Mm-hmm. Or, um, yeah. How, how do you embody that without taking all of that home with you?

It's so intimate. It's so personal.

[00:19:39] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Well, I do take it home with me. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. And that's something that Yeah. You know, like where's the line between the professional and the personal and, and then if we come into the feminist lens of the. Personal is the political right. So like I just, I, there's a way of obviously like taking a break from your, your work and going back into the world, but the line between work and personal understanding of my politics is very blurred.

But that's not to say that I don't have very clear boundaries with my clients and how I show up. Like there are very clear boundaries of how that energetic exchange happens. Mm-hmm. But when they're telling me about the systems of the world and how that's impacting their sex life, it's not like I then just go watch a TV show and be like, cool.

So this is this other world. It's like, no, like the system's impacting them or what's impacting me and impacting you and impacting what's on this TV show. Mm-hmm. And so it's, it's all holding that, um, in terms of the comfort level, it's, it's gotten better over the years. I mean. You were a part of that in terms of when we were training together.

Remember I did a presentation on psychedelic sex therapy.

[00:20:44] Dr. Lydia: Mm-hmm. Loved that presentation. I You should make it available.

[00:20:48] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Redo it a little. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Spice it up. Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, I've, I've brought a lot of that into my pleasure liberation sex program. Mm-hmm. A lot of that, taking that into there.

Um, and I remember particularly because when you and I were going through the field of clinical psychology, it is not necessarily friendly to sex expansiveness. I, you know, exactly. You're shaking your head. The listener can't see.

[00:21:14] Dr. Lydia: It's not, it's really not. Yeah. I didn't wanna interrupt you, but it's really not.

Yeah. Like even in my training programs, I went through five years of grad school and didn't, none of my classes mentioned sex. Right. Even my psychology classes, um, diversity.

[00:21:30] Dr. Nicole: Uh, no say we at least had like a day, like there was one day, but like five years and one day

[00:21:36] Dr. Lydia: I was in a couples and family class.

We didn't, I didn't even talk about sex. We talked about like family structures and like authoritarian parenting, you know, those classic, but they weren't like, uh, you know, how often should you have sex? How do you talk about sex with your Yeah, yeah. It's just so, it's all things that you have to teach yourself.

And like even in that training program, which was super open, I would say, on like the list of closed-minded versus open-minded.

[00:22:03] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:03] Dr. Lydia: It was super open-minded as a practice for you were still the one bringing, you, were still the one bringing these topics to the forefront. And even our supervisors were like, oh my goodness, Nicole, we're learning so much from you.

You need to come back and do the sex podcast or the sex recording continuing to do this. Yeah. Teach, teach the future because we don't have. Trailblazer like you in, in the field yet.

[00:22:27] Dr. Nicole: Yeah,

[00:22:27] Dr. Lydia: you are now.

[00:22:28] Dr. Nicole: But yeah. Yeah. I appreciate that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The clinical site we were at was very open in that way 'cause they'd send me stuff about like sex, uh, particularly like sex and psychedelics and how that was helping people expand or stuff on sex workers.

And even then, I just remember so much in my body of fear, like just, and I, I think a lot of that comes from my Christian upbringing. And then, like you're saying, the training programs where we got the doctorate, not the clinical site, like, and some of the clinical sites I had before, the one that we were at.

We're way not safe around sex at all. Like way not safe around sex. Like that is not professional to bring up at all, which is wild to me. So I'm like holding that in my body as we're having these presentations. And I just remember like, just feeling so scared to do it and then being like, no, but this is my specialty.

Like I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. But like feeling terrified the entire time that like Sky Daddy or like the program director at some point, like I remember for internship trying to match for internship. Mm-hmm. I, when I was editing my episodes at that time in my life and I was sending out applications, I started cutting out moments where I talked about having an orgasm and other sorts of things.

'cause I was like, God fucking forbid that some training program director is gonna see this on me, Google me, find this, go and see. I talk about that and then I'm not gonna match. I'm not gonna end up getting through my do like the whole catastrophizing like, so I think it's like titration of exposure therapy and enough repeated experiences where I'm not.

Kicked out or dropped on the face of the earth for doing the things that I do. And like when you talk about clients and how that feels tricky, I feel really incredibly, incredibly blessed because having done this for five years, the clients that come to me are pretty fucking aligned.

[00:24:16] Dr. Lydia: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:24:18] Dr. Nicole: That's not to say there's not a challenging moment, but it's very rare that I have like a cis het monogamous man in my space who is judging home like, like queer people. Like that is very rare in terms of my business bringing in people because they're, they're not really tuning into the podcast. Sure. I get their comments on YouTube, but like, they're not really like

[00:24:38] Dr. Lydia: Yeah.

They're not your people. And I, I love how you've kind of created this attraction rather than promotion kind of thing, where you're like, the people that need me are gonna find me. Right. And I don't need to have, you know, 30 clients with anxiety because my calling in this world is to help the. Specific people that need like these skills that I have honed.

You know, if you're like a specific really sharp sushi knife, I'm not gonna use you to like chop my vegetables because. It's just kind of not what the tool is used for, right? Like you are best in those situations and I'm glad that these people have found you and it's just gonna continue to titrate into right.

More and more specificity,

[00:25:20] Dr. Nicole: right?

[00:25:20] Dr. Lydia: But to talk to your fear, I relate to that so much, and I was feeling a little bit of that coming onto this podcast. Mm. Because this is my first, um, kind of public thing, speaking as a doctor. I just got the title right.

[00:25:34] Dr. Nicole: Congratulations.

[00:25:36] Dr. Lydia: Coming out. Thank you. Coming out as a psychedelic psychotherapist.

Oh my goodness. My parents, they're never going to My immigrant parents, you understand? They're not immigrants, but yeah, have the same. Level of closed-mindedness that I I, my dissertation wasn't on psychedelics like yours. You, that was so brave of you. Mm-hmm. To just come out of the gate and say, this is what I wanna do.

Yeah. I was still kind closet about psychedelics and so I, my dissertation was really focused on the multicultural, sociocultural elements of being human, which, yeah, I think polyamory is part of that. It's part of your like diverse identity or minority identity. Even psychedelics is a part of that too, in the psychology field of another minority identity.

It's like, how many closets can I come out of?

[00:26:24] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and now there's documented research about the correlation between psychedelic users and more like sexually diverse, non-monogamous people. There's literal research that has connected the correlation between, I know. It's like,

[00:26:38] Dr. Lydia: I need that research in my life.

Where was that research when you were writing here?

[00:26:43] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, a few years. I was a few years too early for that one. But yeah, that would've absolutely gone in the study on relationship anarchy for sure. That's like, so connected. And even that would've been a great variable to ask my participants. Like, uh, have you done psychedelics?

And if so, how many? Like how many, how many years? You know, like.

[00:27:00] Dr. Lydia: And have you done them with intention? Right. Have you done them with integration? Because there's such a difference between doing them and going to a rave, which is, you know, super fun. Right? Super awesome. Really connects you to your people.

And then there's a difference between taking it at home with some journaling prompts and a dream.

[00:27:19] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:19] Dr. Lydia: You know, putting on an eye mask and really diving inward.

[00:27:22] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then the health of the community. I feel like that's the biggest thing I always come to is like, I couldn't do any of this work without the community.

Like you being a part of it, all the other people being a part of that, that like see me and the things that I'm doing and breathe life into it and like, support me when I send Yeah. The 10 minute, you know, voice memo about the sex party that I went to, you know, and like Yeah. You know, like, rather than like, what, what is she doing?

Yeah. So it's like every moment that I've had someone who does that, it cracks me open further. But I'm like, I was telling you before we got on, like I'm still really scared to do video. Like I am. Crossing over for this fall, and like, I am still like shaking at the thought of like, people actually seeing me because, okay.

Mm-hmm. So right now I have a, I have like a bun, right? Like, who, who cares? This is just a, I think you're beautiful. Thank you. That's sweet,

[00:28:13] Dr. Lydia: dear, dear listener. She looks beautiful in her tie dye, um, pullover,

[00:28:19] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[00:28:20] Dr. Lydia: Other BDSM tools in the back.

[00:28:23] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly. But that's what

[00:28:23] Dr. Lydia: I'm painting a I'm painting a picture.

[00:28:25] Dr. Nicole: It's important, right? But like, that's what's going through my head is like, I have, like, I've grown out my body hair. I maybe don't wanna wear makeup. Like all of this sort of like, you know, it's quote unquote dumb. Like, I'm happy to, I'm so privileged to be where I'm at, but like it's something that I'm actually processing through of like, what does it mean to be in front of visibility and have people see me and then be like, oh, gross, she grows out her body hair.

She's not wearing makeup or whatever. All the societal stuff is really like bubbling up when I think about. Stepping into that chapter and not just having the voice.

[00:28:58] Dr. Lydia: Yeah. And like body hair is up there with monogamy. It's like, who chose that? You know? But I, I still like, here I am, you know, ascribing to some things because they make me feel safe.

[00:29:09] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:29:10] Dr. Lydia: And I think that is something, you know, going, you know, focusing on our questions for this Yeah. For this episode. Like, how have you changed in the past year being kind of the focus and foundation stepping into this video thing is gonna be a huge shift. Five years of doing the podcast audio, feeling really comfortable in it, having a through, you know, editing casually on the couch, you know, by yourself.

[00:29:35] Dr. Nicole: Exactly.

[00:29:37] Dr. Lydia: And it, it sounds like there's gonna be a lot of changes, like, have you talked about. You know, wanting to kind of grow your, grow your pleasure team. Yeah. Whatcha gonna call yourself like your pleasure activists?

[00:29:50] Dr. Nicole: Totally, totally My team. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's wild. I, I just, I feel like I'm having a trip.

To be clear, I haven't done a lot of psychedelics recently 'cause I think my life has felt like such. Of one of, as of recently. Yeah. So I've just been like, you know, I'm really good. Like the sober thing right now is pretty intense already. Like I am actually really good. So there's been like such a slowdown in that area of my life as this is like really intense.

Um, to yeah, to be like

[00:30:21] Dr. Lydia: That's interesting.

[00:30:22] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. To be like hiring people and like cross. I'm sure if I did drop into a psychedelic trip, it'd probably really ground me really well. So like, I'm not saying, you know, like maybe it's an invitation for me to do that. Um, but like just, yeah, it's been so much to go from.

Truly like the, the school mode. Like you and I have been in that for five years of like constantly someone on top of our shoulders. I remember when we were waiting for our degrees to be conferred and just this like big feeling that at any moment someone could be like, well actually this one credit course that you missed.

Mm-hmm. Um, so no, not doctor yet. You know, so like, just that, that fucking weight of that for like so long and the pressure of that system, like being the ultimate definer of getting out of this point to then get out like. I, I know last year the title was like liberating my voice and I was like, dude, there's still so much more going on in terms of liberation, because I like wasn't out of the system.

[00:31:18] Dr. Lydia: Like, no, you weren't, you were still applying for your, you know, postdoc internship and matching. And I remember we were still anxious about that whole process and, you know, my degree was just conferred because of, you know, bureaucratic red tape. And yeah. That whole time I was in this state of anxiety and fear.

Right. And my, it's not that I limited what I said, but I definitely felt surveilled.

[00:31:42] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:31:42] Dr. Lydia: Whether or not someone was actually surveilling me. I totally, I do feel a lot more free knowing that, okay, well you can't physically take this away, even, you know, worst case scenario, like, I will always have this struggle.

[00:31:56] Dr. Nicole: Yep. Yep. Yep.

[00:31:59] Dr. Lydia: And so, you know, and, and then we're done with our internship. Yeah. And now you're stepping into your own offerings. Yeah. With people that really wanna be with you. Like there is a new level of freedom where nothing can be really taken away from you.

[00:32:14] Dr. Nicole: No, no. Which has been interesting. So now it's like, it feels much more connected to who I'm working with, like.

No one can fire me because I'm my own boss, which is like super great. And then it like really deepens the connection I have with my clients of like, you are employing me. Like we are in this together. Right? So it's like interesting, like

[00:32:35] Dr. Lydia: mm-hmm.

[00:32:35] Dr. Nicole: Um, like, like how do I be stewards of the resources that are brought to me in terms of the finances that are brought to me of people who work with me.

And then how do I continue to give it back to building this and building this as like an educational platform that can have more of a reach and these things like that wisdom of how to do that well when the money is coming so directly. 'cause when we're students, we don't, first off, we don't get paid at all.

We just go into massive amounts of debt. Like half a million dollars of debt. Like totally chill.

[00:33:01] Dr. Lydia: Oh my gosh.

[00:33:01] Dr. Nicole: Like, like straight up the biggest nervous system mind fucked to be like, yep, half a million. That's. Here we are. Yeah.

[00:33:08] Dr. Lydia: Yeah. If any, if anything is hanging over my head right now and it's a bureaucratic it's, it's the loans.

It's the loans. I wake up in the morning, I'm like, oh, I don't really have a boss. But actually, yeah, I do.

[00:33:19] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:33:20] Dr. Lydia: The money that I owe to the government.

[00:33:21] Dr. Nicole: To the government, yeah. That won't even give me an income driven repayment plan. Just waiting literally months and months of waiting and just. And the money that's given to me for my clients now, like, okay, so how do I funnel that back into this and this space rather than trying to pay that and the government and the whole thing, right?

How do I build this more and more? Like, that's the whole stretch of it, and it's been such a. It's been such a joy to like yeah. Be in that space now where I have more freedom and my voice can be even more like wild and, and, and not held back in that way. Um, and it's funny as like the more wild it gets, it feels even more grounded though, like, you know, like in terms of like pendulum swings.

Like, you know, there's that part where you're so restricted and then you get out and you're like, sex rah, rah, rah, rah, rah. And then there's like, okay, we've been talking about sex, like this is what sex here we are. Like, it's just, you know, it's a bit more grounded. Like Yeah, I'll talk about BDSM, the ball gag Molly four person scene at a play party.

Yeah. Like, but like, it's not so like charged of like, oh my god. You know, it's like, yeah, we had had this scene. Like it was cool. You know?

[00:34:25] Dr. Lydia: So, so it's still wild psychotherapy. Yeah. Yeah. Every time I meet someone in Central Park and they ask me what I do, and I'm a, and I say that I'm a psychedelic psychotherapist, I'm like, this is your exposure therapy, you know?

Because like one day you're gonna have to say this with your chest to your parents when they ask you what you do all day.

[00:34:43] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:34:44] Dr. Lydia: Um, and so, and it's been received so well. Everyone's always like telling me about like the newest research and I'm like, wow, thank you so much for sharing. You know? That's so cool.

Like, you know about that. So yeah. But every single time I'm held in that space, it just feels, it just feels better. So I'm sure like every time you have a really good session, you just leave,

[00:35:04] Dr. Nicole: oh my God, fired up.

[00:35:05] Dr. Lydia: Like, you don't even need to do any embodying work because you were just so in it that whole time.

It just continues to charge up your life.

[00:35:13] Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah. And the groups I do are amazing. Like the people that,

[00:35:17] Dr. Lydia: yeah. How are your groups? Tell me about your groups this year and how they've changed and how they've grown and Yeah.

[00:35:23] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. It's been really, really magical to bring so many people that have similar values around pleasure, liberation, and you and I both know the power of groups.

I think at least my consciousness five years ago had no idea of the power of groups. I, I would've came into this being like, um, I want to do one-on-one work and I would never want to talk about my sex life in a group space. But when you step into that sort of work, whether it's my non-monogamy group or the sexuality group, or literally any other group about these types of things,

[00:35:56] Dr. Lydia: psychedelic group,

[00:35:57] Dr. Nicole: yeah. You are going to have to release. Shame to say, yeah, this is what I did in my sex life, or this is what the psychedelic I did, or this is what my non-monogamy practice looks like. And the beauty is that we can heal in relationships. We get hurt in relationships, we experience significant things that can destroy and change and permanently alter, you know, but we can also heal in relationships.

And so when you are in a group space where you are actively talking about your sex life, something that, you know, Yalom, one of the like major group theory leaders talks about is like sex is one of the main pain points, top three pain points of majority of people. Which I remember reading that, going through group therapy as a class.

And I was like, okay, great. Sounds like we need to have a group psychology, like a group therapy course. Yeah. Like this on sex. 'cause like clearly if this is one of the top three, like

[00:36:48] Dr. Lydia: top three,

[00:36:49] Dr. Nicole: I know,

[00:36:49] Dr. Lydia: I agree with that actually. Yeah, it's, it's huge. But it's also like going into the young and the shadow sex has been pushed so far in the shadow, but at the same time is.

So part of the mainstream, it just takes, you know, it's just one of those things that they, like, take it from you to sell back to you in the exact way that they want you to have it. Yeah. You know, sex sells, obviously. Yeah.

[00:37:10] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:37:11] Dr. Lydia: The, the most, all of the work that people do, like all of the baby Botox, that's becoming like really popular.

You know, it's like if sex is part of mainstream society, but yet you can't even talk about it with your therapist. Like it's this, it's, it's this dual sense where you're like, oh, I, I wanna act sexy. I wanna dress sexy, I wanna have this sex appeal. But I also am not able to talk about it and share about it in any meaningful way, in connection, in fear of getting rejected.

Right. And the only way that I know how to do this and not be rejected is if I follow the way that society says it's okay to be sexy.

[00:37:48] Dr. Nicole: The cognitive dissonance of that is exhausting, like truly cognitive dissonance.

[00:37:52] Dr. Lydia: But I love what you said about like healing in relationships because it's like if someone comes in with years of relational trauma, you're not gonna heal that with a one-on-one connection.

They're gonna be like, okay, well I trust you.

[00:38:04] Dr. Nicole: Right?

[00:38:04] Dr. Lydia: But everyone else sucks. And like that's a place where a lot of people get to in therapy where they're like, Nicole, obviously you're awesome, but you know, that's it. This, this like encapsulated, how do I integrate now this amazing therapy session in with like my small town that I live in?

[00:38:19] Dr. Nicole: Right, exactly. Exactly, exactly. Like. Some of the feedback I've gotten from group members through this cohort, like one member was like, we were talking about consent or something, and she was like, I don't really know what to say, but I'm realizing that I need to raise my standards. Ooh. And I was just like, yeah.

I was like exactly what to say. We could stop the course right here. And you've already gotten the like intangible magic of this. Or like someone else in the other cohort was like, um, I'm just learning so much from all of you and every time I come into this space, I realize that there's even more I can ask for.

And I was like.

[00:38:58] Dr. Lydia: Yeah,

[00:38:58] Dr. Nicole: I was like, again, magical life moment, like mm-hmm. Everything I could ever want is to like have that intangible right there of like, okay, I dream of more. Or like, um, we were doing like desire talks today around like communicating your highest and hottest desires and like actually communicating that in the group.

Granted, this is like week eight of 16, so like we've built Yeah. We have felt safe. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Trust in the foundation. And so people were sharing all their fantasies and, and people were like, wow, I really wish I had more of the expansiveness that some of you other people have in this space.

Mm-hmm. And it makes me wanna step into that. It's making me grieve this, it's making me go even through that. So like yeah. In a one-on-one group therapy, first off, your therapist is not gonna be like, here's my sex fantasy, first off, you know? Yeah. Let alone being in a group space where everyone shares their fantasy and you have that moment.

[00:39:51] Dr. Lydia: Did you share yours too?

[00:39:53] Dr. Nicole: No, I, because I, I've held the space of like, container holder now I thought about it 'cause like, in an anarchist perspective, like I totally could share my container, but like, what I think about the fact is like, that's what you and I are doing right now.

[00:40:05] Dr. Lydia: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:07] Dr. Nicole: Like, I have the platform, I have the space.

I think if someone asked me directly like, Hey, Dr. Cole, what's yours? Would you share? Like, yeah, fuck yeah, I'd share. Like, that's fine. Yeah. Like, you know, and like the first, we do yeses at the beginning, which is like something you said yes to or no. 'cause no is important too that week that you're proud of what you enjoyed out of it.

So why e And then the yes is what you're seducing into your life, so Right. So that's like our opener is the Yes. And you can also say a no because we love when someone says a no. And that's an important,

[00:40:36] Dr. Lydia: that's a boundary.

[00:40:37] Dr. Nicole: Yep. And we love that too.

[00:40:39] Dr. Lydia: You, you always say like the, the strength of your Yes. Is equivalent to the strength of your No,

[00:40:44] Dr. Nicole: absolutely.

[00:40:45] Dr. Lydia: Yeah. If you can say, no, that's not for me. Right. Then when you say yes, you're like, yeah, that's definitely for me.

[00:40:52] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. Exactly,

[00:40:53] Dr. Lydia: exactly. Yeah, I was, and I was curious about that because as a group member, I'm just like, you know, compulsively curious as an individual, thus. You know, psychology. Sure. I would definitely like turn to the group member and, and, and shift the dynamics and be like, what about you?

I would always ask my teacher, you know, like, you wanna know about me? What's a fun fact about you?

[00:41:11] Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. Which I'm happy if you're my student. Like, happy to do that, happy to do that. You know what I mean? And like when we first started the groups, you know, like I will always do a demo.

Like, okay, so this, yes, for me this week was like, maybe it was, you know, using additional lube than I thought was previously quote unquote acceptable. Or having like eating my, you know, girlfriend out at a play party and we enjoyed blah, blah, blah blah. So like I'll set the container with that, but that's like the only time I've done it.

And then let the group, you know, 'cause I have this whole platform, you and I could talk about my Yes. Of this week right now. Like it's a, you know, there, there is a big power in. So like I wanna create space for other people to have their voice and they do. Um, did I tell you that they do personal presentations?

[00:41:52] Dr. Lydia: No, it's, oh, that is like a power point or something. They're like, they,

[00:41:56] Dr. Nicole: yeah, yeah, yeah. They, yeah. They have 30 minutes to do a past, present, future of their sex life. And then in the non-monogamy group, their non-monogamy life.

[00:42:05] Dr. Lydia: Wow.

[00:42:06] Dr. Nicole: 10 minutes each is the recommendation.

[00:42:08] Dr. Lydia: They come in with like notes and telling the stories.

[00:42:11] Dr. Nicole: PowerPoint. Narrative. Stare PowerPoint. Yeah. Photo art. Art, yeah. It's all, it's all free flow at that point. You got 30 minutes with the group.

[00:42:18] Dr. Lydia: And from a narrative perspective, that is just so amazing. I know there are so many different, it's like, you know, equ, finality, you know, like all of these different things kind of come to the same point and it's like, how do you tell your story?

What do you tell yourself when you sleep at night? Totally. 'cause someone that could be engaging in the same behaviors as you're engaging in could be telling themselves at night. You know, I'm a bad, bad girl. I like can't be monogamous. I'm like cheating on everyone and God hates me. You know, and you could be doing the exact same actions as someone that's like, I'm like living in my truth.

I'm embodied. Right? And like my sexuality. And so hearing someone come in with their stories that I wonder, I would love to hear, like if your story even changes over time, you know? Oh, I'm sure it does. Like if you were to make a PowerPoint of like your time in highlighting different things, highlighting different pain points that maybe aren't even pain points anymore,

[00:43:12] Dr. Nicole: right?

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I had a episode come out where I was guessing on another show and it was called Girl Boner Radio, which is like an amazing name. Hey, the click gets engorged

[00:43:26] Dr. Lydia: on the radio,

[00:43:27] Dr. Nicole: the click gets engorged, right? Like the click gets engorged. Um,

[00:43:33] Dr. Lydia: Clit Engorged Radio,

[00:43:34] Dr. Nicole: Uhhuh, Uhhuh, Uhhuh.

Um, and like she really held my story and it'd be like, 'cause you know, some, sometimes. You know, the depth of the conversation is a reflection of the people in it, right? Mm-hmm. And typically the space holder. So like sometimes when I've gone on other shows, they keep it at this very like, more theoretical, like, what are you doing with your client?

Sort of work. And this conversation got me like, like really deep into my story. And so, yeah, I was talking about like coming from Christianity, losing my virginity and crying in the bathroom, having my sexual assault, getting an abortion, going into therapy, what it was like to be a sexual assault counselor, like doing all this, like stepping into all of that, right?

And like, yeah, when I look back on that, it's like, whoa, I, you almost kind of forget it's your own life, you know? You're like,

[00:44:19] Dr. Lydia: yeah,

[00:44:19] Dr. Nicole: that's another story, right? Oh no, that, oh, well that interesting. That is mine. Interesting. Because just so much has changed.

[00:44:28] Dr. Lydia: So much has changed, and even in like this past year, you know, stepping into more group work, stepping into more offerings that you're engaging in, like this value you created, you know, so many resources this past year that you didn't really have

[00:44:42] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:44:43] Dr. Lydia: Even a couple years ago. Like all of the clickthroughs that you have now. Yeah. Those are all new. Yeah. You've since published in this past year Yeah. Or all those things. What are you the most proud of or what are you proud of this past year that you said yes to or even proud of that you said no to? Mm.

Um, similar of how you went in your group settings, you know? Yeah. Are there, well, how are you calling in eroticism with your yeses, with your actions in this past year and is there anything that you're like, yeah, that's that's the past me, like that's the narrative that I'm no longer writing.

[00:45:16] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. The narrative I'm no longer writing is, is, uh, I wanna say this confidently and I'm a human being so that I can't hold it all the time, but is self-doubt. Like, I just like, just stop. Like, so I've been working with Jessica Fern as my mentor, which is like the most mind melting.

[00:45:36] Dr. Lydia: Mind blown mind.

[00:45:38] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:45:39] Dr. Lydia: Alone. Wait, let's talk about that.

[00:45:41] Dr. Nicole: Totally.

[00:45:41] Dr. Lydia: Me. Let's talk about that. 'cause that's new.

[00:45:43] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:45:44] Dr. Lydia: Yeah. That's new. Within the past year.

[00:45:45] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:45:46] Dr. Lydia: When did you start?

[00:45:47] Dr. Nicole: Oh God. Like last, just this last fall? Like, yeah. After graduating. After graduating. Because yeah. If me, if you and I, when we were sitting at our psychedelic training and I was like, Hey girl, I'm gonna be with Jessica firm.

We've been like, what? Like in what world? Like in what world? Like that's the, you know, one of the like texts of our movement. But like, in what world is that gonna happen? Um, yeah. It's been really. Really joyful and really, really helpful. And like she's been, yeah, she's big on narrative therapy, so that also really helps me in terms of some of those pieces in terms of narrative therapy and being able to like, expand in that way.

Um, but yeah, I think really letting go of fear, like she's helping me to kind of, and I know this is simple, and we can say this to both you and I, right? Like, you and I are gonna be in this field for the next, as long as we're alive, 50 years,

[00:46:43] Dr. Lydia: 60, 80, I'm, I'm cutting down on sugars. We're gonna around, we're gonna be around,

[00:46:52] Dr. Nicole: this is a part of me that's like, faster, Nicole, faster, faster, faster, faster, faster, faster.

And then Jessica's like, well, yeah, but next year when you do this, and then in a couple of years. And I'm like, oh yeah, you're right. Like, I am gonna be in this space.

[00:47:05] Dr. Lydia: Yeah, it's, it's a marathon.

[00:47:08] Dr. Nicole: Exactly.

[00:47:09] Dr. Lydia: She's helping you to slow down and she's also helping with the business aspect or creating a platform, reaching your public, you know, reaching your audience.

All of these things are important things that they also don't teach you in grad school. No. You know, a lot of people are just like, okay, I'll, I'm, I'm gonna be a therapist now. But there's so much creativity and expansiveness in what you can do now with all of this knowledge and how you can use it to help people on their own and how people can then help themselves, like, print out your offerings and bring them to their own couples counselor that isn't you.

[00:47:46] Dr. Nicole: Totally, yeah, totally. The compass of consent one, is it, like, the pleasure wheel is cool and I also really like the compass of consent for non-monogamy stuff. That's been really fun to make that in the last year. 'cause uh, for the listeners who don't know, it's, it's a free download. Everything on my website is free in that sense.

'cause you and I have both worked in community mental health and we know how important that is. Like that is a. Yeah. Important part of the revolution.

[00:48:09] Dr. Lydia: Education is Yep. You know, public on ProQuest, even though you had to pay to make it public,

[00:48:14] Dr. Nicole: $90 paid. I paid $90 for my research to be public on a pla Fine.

It's on my website for free too, so whatever, you know, but like on ProQuest Yeah. Yeah.

[00:48:26] Dr. Lydia: But for new listeners, you have all of these offerings that it's taken blood, sweat, and tears.

[00:48:30] Dr. Nicole: Totally.

[00:48:32] Dr. Lydia: So valuable. You know? Totally, totally. To, to have these and, and to create value, but you know that it's just gonna come back to you, like everything.

Right. Is everything that you're sewing. Yeah. To have one of the people that I consider a foundation in this field working with you so closely is, is also a relational point. You know, what I really liked about deconstructing, you know, colonization in the way that we even introduce ourselves. It's like, oh, I'm a, I'm a sister, I am a daughter, I am a student of Jessica Fern.

You know? Right,

[00:49:04] Dr. Nicole: right.

[00:49:05] Dr. Lydia: Even all of the, you know, Freud, Anna Freud, you know, they all work together.

[00:49:09] Dr. Nicole: Totally.

[00:49:09] Dr. Lydia: You know, like everyone was like a, everyone basically was a student of Skinner, Ericsson, all of the other big names in the field, and they're all connected. Right. And, and that's how this grows is through mentoring.

[00:49:22] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:49:22] Dr. Lydia: So it's amazing that you found your mentor this year because that's a huge. That's a huge step. Yeah. You were being all alone like year one. You don't even have anyone hold this space for you. You were like, oh, Nicole, whatcha thinking about year one? It's like, thanks for asking that, Nicole. That's a great question.

I haven't thought about it. Nicole,

[00:49:40] Dr. Nicole: literally don't listen to the year one shoot up. Me just being like, Hmm. Yeah. So I'm talking into the void, like who's listening? It's like, oh God. Yeah, dude. But yeah,

[00:49:51] Dr. Lydia: moving self doubt because people are listening.

[00:49:54] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And so much of our field is handed down through relational wisdom.

Like that is so fair. Like, and for someone who's not in the field, you know, when you're going through school, sure. You know, you have your teachers and that sort of thing, but you go through supervision during your clinical work and that's like a once, you know, once a week you meet for an hour to talk about what you're going through, what you're unpacking and what you're learning and all that sort of stuff.

Right. So like all of this stuff is passed down. So that's why Yeah. A lot of people in the field will say like, this is who I trained under, these are my mentors. These are the things, right. 'cause you learn through that relational wisdom. And it was interesting 'cause one of my friends, my first, my first meta more, you know who this is?

Aw. Um, yeah. She's like, that's so cool that you're working with Jessica. Don't tell her anything about your personal life though. Like, definitely keep the personal and the like professional separate so that she looks at you in a good light. You know, not to say that my personal life's a mess or anything, but like, just there's a, you know, a line, but she works in a different field, like a completely different field.

Mm-hmm. Right. We're like in our work. Part of what our work is is that as a therapist, you can only take your client to the depth that you have gone yourself.

[00:51:04] Dr. Lydia: Absolutely, absolutely. And. With the supervision that I've had, and I'm still gonna be under supervision next year as postdoc.

[00:51:13] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:51:13] Dr. Lydia: It's like the level that you can be honest with your supervisor and tell them, Hey, like I think the reason why I'm having trouble with this client is because I know exactly what they're feeling and I have been stuck by that same roadblock, and it's actually triggering me because I'm, some of this roadblock still has a cognitive dissonance inside of me.

Like they're making some good points. Yeah. You know? Yeah, exactly. And I'm sitting here with their points like, huh, I guess we're both stuck here.

[00:51:42] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah,

[00:51:42] Dr. Lydia: exactly. Because I haven't gotten over it myself.

[00:51:43] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Right.

[00:51:48] Dr. Lydia: If, if I met Jessica Fern, I tell her everything about my life I'd, I'd send her the 20 minute voice message.

Like, Jessica help girl.

[00:51:58] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I did cry this week. I did. I did cry this week with her, which was like, was was a point, because we were talking about visibility, we were talking about visibility, fear of visibility, all of the things of what it means. Like I'm going to my first conference in May to present and like that.

Even that's terrifying. Like yeah, the podcast has like thousands of listeners, but like, I don't have, I don't have experience standing in front of thousands of eyes.

[00:52:21] Dr. Lydia: Yeah. Not yet. But let's talk about May. What, what is your topic like then?

[00:52:25] Dr. Nicole: Um, psych, like the set and setting of erotic liberation.

[00:52:31] Dr. Lydia: Okay, let's go.

[00:52:32] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. So it's like psychedelic pleasure. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm gonna be, um, Southwest Love Fest reached out to me and asked me to come present and it's like, I guess a more like non-monogamy focused mm-hmm. Sort of space. And yeah. I'm gonna present on, you know, which is a building off of literally the psychedelic sex therapy presentation I did with you and, uh, that original training site of how do we apply the frameworks of set and setting that help us to mm-hmm.

Have a solid psychedelic experience into our sex life or into, for this example, non-monogamy. Yeah. How do we use that to set up a good container for non-monogamy of whatever type you're doing? Um, so yeah, I want to be able to walk out on that stage and be super confident. And then there's the more realistic part of me that's still, when I get in a circle and I introduce myself, you know, when you like, know when your turn is and then your heart just starts fucking hounding.

[00:53:29] Dr. Lydia: Yes. Oh, it's just a physical thing. It's that fear. It's horrible. I hate it. Scene of being and as someone that has been, you know, rejected, I mean, who hasn't, right? Right.

[00:53:38] Dr. Nicole: Exactly.

[00:53:39] Dr. Lydia: Especially when you come from any kind of minority identity, any kind of differentiation from the norm. Accepted ideal, um, right.

It's. It's like, you know, what is, am I safe here?

[00:53:52] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:53:53] Dr. Lydia: You know, am I safe here? But I, I loved what you said about self-doubt and just stepping into authenticity, because when I listen to your podcast, the things that resonate with me the most, the things that I latch onto, and then it's almost like impossible for me to forget, are the times when you're so genuinely authentic and so out there, like I, I doubt that every listener is gonna be as open as you.

Maybe some listeners are listening because they're like, wow, how honest can you, like, whoa, you know, like, I would, you know, you can waterboard that information out of me. Here she's willingly. Sharing this and that level of bravery.

[00:54:30] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:54:30] Dr. Lydia: Also kind of lights the way to showing people that you can be brave too.

Yeah. You know, you don't have to do what feels safe because you can be safe being the most authentic, crazy, you know, coming hard, crying, hard version of yourself.

[00:54:46] Dr. Nicole: Right, right, right. Which is wild because like, yeah. So year one I, and I had shared this with Jessica, when I'm thinking about being more visible and going out, I start therapy 2017, right?

Mm-hmm. And I am, my original framework is everyone hates me until proven otherwise.

[00:55:07] Dr. Lydia: What a schema.

[00:55:08] Dr. Nicole: What would you say, Dr. Lydia, what would you say to me?

[00:55:11] Dr. Lydia: Um, it's like everyone's guilty until proven innocent.

[00:55:16] Dr. Nicole: I've been hurt. You probably,

[00:55:18] Dr. Lydia: yeah. You've been hurt. Aw,

[00:55:20] Dr. Nicole: right.

[00:55:20] Dr. Lydia: You've been heard your little kids like everyone's hates me.

[00:55:24] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly.

[00:55:25] Dr. Lydia: Hate everyone.

[00:55:26] Dr. Nicole: Talk about defenses like duh.

Perfectly safe. You already hate me. You can't come at me 'cause I already know you hate me. There you go. Yeah. You're over there. Like it's just very, so

[00:55:36] Dr. Lydia: the walls,

[00:55:37] Dr. Nicole: yeah, I've done a lot of work on that. I do not feel that way currently. I do not feel that way at all. Right. Like that is nowhere near where I'm at, which is a testament to how much shit could change when you just keep going and going and going at it.

But like that's not an easy beginning to any of what I'm doing right now in any place at all. Like, no,

[00:55:56] Dr. Lydia: it's the most radical beginning that you could possibly have.

[00:55:59] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:56:00] Dr. Lydia: And I think that's so beautiful because you know, energy can never be created nor destroyed. So, you know, if you come into the world with your challenge kind of given to you like that is also the source of.

So much power. You know, I, even speaking from my own experience, like every time that I have something that is truly, truly so painful, after crying about it for, you know, a week or two, I'll think to myself, wow, what an opportunity to have empathy for those who are, are experiencing this.

[00:56:31] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:56:32] Dr. Lydia: You know, what an opportunity to cry with my clients who are hitting these same roadblocks.

You know, I'm so blessed that I, I have this to cry over because now when people come to me, I'm like, huh, I really feel you. Yeah. I really, really feel you.

[00:56:48] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It sucks while you're in it. Like when you're there and you're just like, why is this, why am I feeling jealous? Why am I feeling insecure?

Why am I feeling like the world is going to collapse? It's not, not a fun place to be, but you're right. Like when you get to the other side, because every moment like that, every emotion is a wave. It's always gonna crash on story onto the shore, right? Like there, there's gonna be a moment where you come back to that regulation and that grounding, and then yeah, you gained a lot through how you rode that wave, whether you took a big wipe out and learned not to do that again, right?

Mm-hmm. Or if you rode it all the way through and made it out and had a great fucking fun time with that. Mm-hmm. But you learn a lot through that. And so yeah, it's like, um, it's thickening, thickening the capacity of what we can hold in terms of feelings and emotions, complexity, and thickening our narrative at that same time.

[00:57:39] Dr. Lydia: Yeah, but it comes in waves like you said, you know? Is there any of those things that still show up in your life? I mean, I'm sure like it's been 10 years since I've lived with my, my original family, but I still find that my family of origin impacts the way that I love. I'm like, I should, it's been 10 years, girl.

Like, you gotta relax. You know? Like is there any of those things that you feel like are still showing up? Any of those pain points or any areas where you feel like you still need to learn to have compassion for yourself?

[00:58:08] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Uh, yep. Absolutely. What a great question. What a great question that I decided we would do every year.

What a great, wise question.

[00:58:19] Dr. Lydia: Oh, wow.

This question that I just came up with, I just, you know, weasel it in there.

[00:58:26] Dr. Nicole: Totally. Um, yeah, I think learning to trust is a big one for sure, because I'm like the eldest daughter. You know, eldest daughter, first generation college student, first generation doctor. Yeah. You get it.

[00:58:39] Dr. Lydia: Eldest daughters reunite. Here we are.

[00:58:41] Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah, here we are. I can do everything myself. I actually have to do everything myself. No one else can't rely on anybody. I can do this all myself. So like, yeah, even the idea of like, you know, so like even the process of hiring a video editor to step into this next phase, because I'm realizing, wow, with all the offerings, the teachings, and the conference, like I cannot hold all of this myself, so I need to start trusting people.

Oh my God. So like I felt like I've been having morning sickness through this like pregnancy birth, because I'm just like, I'm like, can I trust people? I do it the best, like I do it the best. Like no one else could do it. And it's like, Nicole, other people have these skills.

[00:59:17] Dr. Lydia: Well, morning skills is such a beautiful analogy because you're also pregnant, you're pregnant.

You have five months, you're actually four months into your pregnancy. You're gonna give birth in five months from now. And you know you're in here. That's funny. And that's a trimester accurate timeline. You're having more sickness. It's horrible in your second trimester and you're having a lot of cravings, maybe calling in more things.

[00:59:43] Dr. Nicole: Oh my God.

[00:59:44] Dr. Lydia: It's wave of like needing compassion and to be helped.

[00:59:46] Dr. Nicole: Dude, dude, like it is wild. It is wild.

[00:59:51] Dr. Lydia: Gestational, you know, you have something, it's kicking. I'm gonna like feel your belly in four months and I'm gonna feel like it's kicking. I feel it's like ready to pop out. I hope it's a natural birth.

[01:00:02] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, me too.

[01:00:03] Dr. Lydia: It's a natural

[01:00:07] Dr. Nicole: me. Too. I am doing all of the prep work I can to have it be as natural, as smooth as possible. Like I am only hiring queer people if I'm just being honest. Like that is part of a huge part of it, of like, yeah, I want people in the ecosystem who have the same values and the same things, right? So like it is trying to be as natural as possible.

And so it has just been such a process to like, yeah, learn to trust people, to step into that and trust that the people will keep showing up. Like in, in the year one, I had always said that just as long, just as long as one listener is here, I will keep making this show. Which is so wild because you just habituate to whatever stage you're in with the creative process.

So now I look at like other big podcasts and then I feel like I'm just the small minnow that like has nothing at all, but like, you know, that framework that I had at the very beginning of like as long as one person is here. Yeah. What more do you need? Like you are changing the life of one person. What more?

But like it's really hard.

[01:01:07] Dr. Lydia: Well, that one person will then share your podcast with their partner and then you know that one person will maybe change the way that they parent their children and right. Integrating non-monogamy just in relationships, but also in the way that we allocate resources with our friends and we prioritize relationships and integrating all of those things in a way where it's not, I mean, yeah, like sex and relationships are your bread and butter, but what isn't about sex and relationships, I really struggle to find anything.

Anything reality tv like,

[01:01:40] Dr. Nicole: yeah,

[01:01:41] Dr. Lydia: not reality tv, like life, like buying something at the bodega. Like literally everything in the world is about society and how we interact with each other and, and sex and relationships.

[01:01:52] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 'cause it's about being able to understand what's happening in your mind, your body, your desires, and communicating them with the world and receiving that in interaction.

So yeah, that's been, um,

[01:02:05] Dr. Lydia: y'all share a nervous system. You know, if someone on the street is screaming at their kid, everyone around them feels bad, is feeling a little bit more nervous. Especially in relationships. Like I, I heard this thing that's like, you don't share emotions, but you share a nervous system with the people who are in your community.

Like if you were having like, the worst day of your life and like really struggling, and there have been times where you called me and you're really struggling, like those days, like I'm, oh my God, more high wired, you know, I'm like, oh my gosh. Like I'm, I'm holding this for you too. And I just, I, I'm trying to stay regulated so we all stay regulated.

[01:02:38] Dr. Nicole: Right, right, right.

[01:02:39] Dr. Lydia: We all are calm.

[01:02:41] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:02:41] Dr. Lydia: And that's just like, in a bigger sense, like what you're doing, you're like regulating people through themselves and then they can like, make a more regulated world, even just one person. But you have, it's grown so much. Yeah. And this past year has seen like also a lot of, a lot of growth.

Yeah. It has in your podcast and it's just, it's kind of like accumulating in a snowball effect. It's just gonna keep going.

[01:03:02] Dr. Nicole: I know. That's the wild part. That's what I tried to just sit with. I'm like, okay, got it. Just keep going. Just keep swimming like Dory, just keep swimming. But I do distinctly remember many a times like phone calls with you.

Like I am distinctly remembering a day where I was walking by the lake and just like devastated. Devastated by a relationship that shall not be named in this year. And just devastated, devastated, just everything around me crumbling, and you are just on the phone. I would, was it like two and a half hours of me just blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And then,

[01:03:42] Dr. Lydia: yeah. And that's, and that's what you needed at the time. And like to have it to be held in that space and like to know that I love you and I Yeah. Don't see you as any less of a strong person. If, if anything, I, I see you as so strong as being able to mm-hmm. Share and be honest and be vulnerable about those things because Yeah, there's so much of, as an eldest daughter, you know, when I'm going through stuff, sometimes I'm like, oh, I don't even wanna share this with others because I don't wanna wreck their nervous system.

Right. You know, I don't wanna be the one bringing in. Turmoil to other people's lives. But you know, that's just the, how life is sometimes. You just have to be honest about where you are and what's going on. Yeah. Or else you become, those walls just keep going up. Mm-hmm. And you're, you're starting to go backwards,

[01:04:25] Dr. Nicole: right? Right. Absolutely.

[01:04:27] Dr. Lydia: And that's, you know, not where you wanna go. You wanna keep going forward and being honest and, you know, crying. And have you ever cried on a podcast that you've, you've

[01:04:36] Dr. Nicole: released? Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. When was the last one? Recently? Oh, I don't know. In the last one recently. By the way, there is a podcast somewhere.

I don't know where in the thread somewhere. Um. This is before I even knew you. This is when I am dating someone who is really monogamous. I'm, I am right at the edge of like fully committing to non-monogamy.

[01:05:04] Dr. Lydia: Mm-hmm.

[01:05:05] Dr. Nicole: And we break up because of that difference. Wow. And I come onto the intro and I'm like, we broke up.

And if that's just what it's gonna be forever, then that's okay because it's just not aligned. I'm like straight up crying in the intro. I don't know which episode 'cause I'd have to like home through each one to find it. But I know I did that once of like, just straight up because like my exist, I loved my existential professors.

[01:05:32] Dr. Lydia: Mm.

[01:05:33] Dr. Nicole: I loved how real, how authentic. Mm-hmm. How much they'd be like, yeah, I'm a human being and this is what's happening for me. It felt so, it's just so magnetic in that way that like, I've always thought like, okay, how do I shatter? 'cause us as doctors, we have such a like. You know, the listeners can't see me, but I really like pulled my face back to be like, doctors are professional.

I remember training the psychiatry residents that I did for my internship year where dear listener, I was like helping train psychiatry residents in therapy because they do therapy with no formal training in therapy. So I was training them, which is wild, wild, wild. I think they do that with nothing. But then we get like five years of it and then it.

[01:06:16] Dr. Lydia: Yeah. And then like they somehow are the, you know, source of information like that is the gold standard of knowledge, even though

[01:06:25] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:06:26] Dr. Lydia: Yeah. That's a whole, they're just learning it from one didactic.

[01:06:28] Dr. Nicole: Totally. That's a whole other book.

[01:06:31] Dr. Lydia: So would you ever go to teaching because I could see you as a cool existential like professor.

I, I taught a family and child class and Oh boy, did I talk about polyamory?

[01:06:43] Dr. Nicole: Oh

[01:06:43] Dr. Lydia: yeah. Did I talk about queer families? Did I talk about raising children with more than two parents? Sure. And my college kids were like, you can do that. Is that legal? I was like, yes. It's illegal. Yeah, yeah. You can do whatever you want.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You can be married to one person and currently, and I don't really see that changing anytime. Soon. So that's like a, a huge kind of barrier in the poly communities that there's only one really legal parent that can show up and, and take the kid to the hospital. Mm-hmm. And know that information.

But these are all questions that because of that position of power, I was able to bring in. Like, I just imagine because you as a professor, how radicalized these kids would be.

[01:07:26] Dr. Nicole: Totally, totally.

[01:07:27] Dr. Lydia: That. Are you just like super against. Higher ed, which I totally understand.

[01:07:31] Dr. Nicole: That's kind of how I feel.

[01:07:33] Dr. Lydia: It's like no more's,

[01:07:34] Dr. Nicole: there's no amount money never getting back.

No. Okay. What I do see is like right now I have a couple of clients who are like professional mentorship clients. They're either coaches or healers or therapists that I am helping like build their own offerings, helping them to have like continual supervision and support, kinda like I have with Jessica of like, here's what's going on in your caseload.

I would love to do like a pleasure centered psychology. Certificate or something, something, something training program like, that's like we, I'm, I'm really loving what I'm doing with the groups right now and speaking and doing this. Mm-hmm. So like yeah, definitely down the line. Like for sure.

[01:08:13] Dr. Lydia: With Dreams For the Future.

[01:08:14] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:08:14] Dr. Lydia: Dreams for the future.

[01:08:15] Dr. Nicole: Yeah,

[01:08:16] Dr. Lydia: for sure. Maybe not be five to six. We'll see. But I could totally see that as, you know,

[01:08:21] Dr. Nicole: so fun.

[01:08:22] Dr. Lydia: You know, I could see you as a supervisor and someone in their podcast one day being like, I'm working with Dr. Nicole, can you believe that she's my mentor and she's telling me that I need to be more vulnerable.

Yeah. And I hate it. And we cried in our last session and. I really trust her so

[01:08:39] Dr. Nicole: Well, that's, yeah, that's part of the work I'm doing because like, there's so many, like one of my clients like, you know, trying to like find out like who is she working for? Mm-hmm. Like who's her person? Who's her? Mm-hmm. You know, what's her transformation arc that she helps people go through?

Like that's a very vulnerable thing. And any, any healer in this work knows the me search sort of edge of all of this, you know, in terms of like, the things we are curious about and research are deeply connected to us. So it's like, yeah, when, when, like I, when I help people who are doing that sort of work to help them to really craft that, it's so personal, it's so personal, professional, like just right there.

And I, and I love that work and it's so deeply charged and I really love doing it. Um, so yeah, I would love to keep doing that in the future years and have that sort of container as I build more of a team where I could like do that sort of stuff. So it's, yeah, we are, we are. Rolling and I am having fun, and I think one of the biggest things I have to do is take breaks.

I, and I know I said that in last year's year four, because I, I briefly tuned into that one, and I, I said the same thing of like, relax and take breaks. And I, I don't think that. I don't think I really listened to that advice. I really sped up. Okay. Yeah.

[01:09:50] Dr. Lydia: Alright. So that, that needs to change. That needs to change because if you're gonna be in this for the next 80 years,

[01:09:58] Dr. Nicole: I know,

[01:09:58] Dr. Lydia: you know, you can't burn out now, but i, I, I love hearing about your dreams and I, I just, it, it feels like another fantasy space, you know?

Mm-hmm. Like looking at like reflections and looking at how much you've grown in this past year, stepping into mentorship, expanding your groups, expanding your global presence. Yeah. Um, and you know, I'll have people now, when I say your podcast, people will be like, oh yeah, I've totally heard about that podcast.

Top 10% is Spotify. Yeah. I'm plugged in. Modern Anarchy. That sounds super familiar.

[01:10:27] Dr. Nicole: That's funny. That's funny. Yeah. I actually, that did happen. I, um, 'cause I still teach yoga. One hour a week. I love it. It's my only, it's technically my only in-person offering. I do it all right. Because, oh wow. Everything else is virtual.

Yeah. But my, my one in-person offering, um, and so one of my yoga students, he is a lawyer in psychedelic work, which is really cool and was like a nice alignment, uh, just of the universe. And he was like, yeah, Nicole, I was in this like lawyer group, this lawyer consulting group, and I think it was like Minnesota, was it Minnesota?

I don't know. Somewhere. I'm in this like lawyer, uh, consulting group and someone was. Talking and it was like a vulnerable share where everyone was going around in a circle and this person was talking way too much for what is appropriate in that face. And I was like laughing with him. And he was like, and then they shared that they're stepping into non-monogamy and they have this podcast they've been listening to called Modern Anarchy with Dr.

Yeah. Straight up. And he was like, oh, I know Dr. Nicole. And they were like, what? And he was like, yes, she's my yoga teacher.

[01:11:36] Dr. Lydia: Oh my God.

[01:11:38] Dr. Nicole: And I was like, that is. Wild. Uh, yeah. Hi. You know, and so the first one's like, I need to come to Chicago and take one of your yoga class. You know? I was just like,

[01:11:49] Dr. Lydia: wow.

Traveling for your in person yoga class.

[01:11:53] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. Yeah. Yeah. It's very fun.

[01:11:56] Dr. Lydia: Well, do they know they have a celebrity teaching yoga?

[01:12:00] Dr. Nicole: Uhhuh, Uhhuh Uhhuh. It doesn't feel like that when you've dated the staff and you have your history. Any good listener of the show? I know I talked about that chapter of my life.

It does not feel like that in any way, shape, or form, but that's good. It's humbling. It's good. One looks at, at humbling. No one looks at me like that in that gym. I just like walk in. Very chill. Very normal. Very normal. Well, that's good.

[01:12:19] Dr. Lydia: You gotta keep yourself humble. You know? You, you can't fly too close to the sun.

[01:12:22] Dr. Nicole: No,

[01:12:22] Dr. Lydia: but I doubt that that's really your problem. I think that with this, all the self-doubt and all of all of that, like, I don't think that humility is really

[01:12:32] Dr. Nicole: No.

But I think it's confidence, if anything is a little bit more confidence to walk out on the stage and be like, I got this.

[01:12:38] Dr. Lydia: Yeah. Oh wow. I'm so excited.

For, for your may offerings as well. Is that gonna be recorded? Like, how, how am I gonna be able to Yeah. Are you gonna post what you, what you present? Are you gonna have slides?

[01:12:50] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, I'm definitely gonna, I'm definitely going to, um, record it. I don't know if I'm just gonna release it on Patreon or if I'm gonna also have like a link on my website.

I haven't figured that out yet, but I am going to record it. I also need B roll for the video, like all that stuff. Mm-hmm. So I'm, I'm building in public. Here we are. You know, so just figuring it out. But yeah, that's, that is on the agenda. That is on the agenda, yeah.

[01:13:14] Dr. Lydia: That's, it's part of the dream. It's part of the goals.

[01:13:18] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:13:18] Dr. Lydia: And becoming like a public figure and having people. Tune in to not only your offerings, but also as just like who you are as a person. You know, I have this key chain that says we are, but uh, an amalgamation of all of the coolest people we have ever known.

[01:13:33] Dr. Nicole: Aw.

[01:13:33] Dr. Lydia: And I find that whenever I find someone that I don't just appreciate the way that they think, but I appreciate the way that they live.

[01:13:40] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:13:41] Dr. Lydia: And I would be like, I wanna live a little bit more like you. Mm. Those are the people that. Then stay and watch your career. Yeah. You, to the people that just don't want you, what, what you're giving them right now, but they wanna see how you progress and walk alongside you and you know, the wrong, like you're walking all of these queers home.

[01:13:59] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. And those are the people in my groups, like straight up when we did the introductions of why we are here, some of the people, like, I have been listening to the podcast for the last five years, and I'm like, oh yeah. I was like, oh, well, hi. You've seen me in a lot. Like, hey, like, like let's do this.

You know? Um, yeah. And I, I have your sticker that you gave me, it's on my like monitor here. Mm-hmm. It says, your kindness can change the world, so. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Thank you for a badass sticker. It's, it's important and it's on my desk every day.

[01:14:28] Dr. Lydia: Yeah. And I'm like, you know, imagining. 'cause I like love to fantasize like in the future, you've done like many of these groups, you have this like community of people.

Yes. Like posting something where all of these people can then come together.

[01:14:40] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:14:40] Dr. Lydia: And I mean, you know, some kind of retreat or some kind of offering and to be in community that would just be so amazing to be like, oh my gosh. Like we were in that group two years ago. Since then, I've broken up with my partner.

I dated people. I'm actually single right now. And I'm like really just figuring myself out and at a completely different space that I was and just to check in. With that group, because I've been in several group offerings, um, for different things and to connect with those members and like a group chat outside of that and to check in right with those people.

It's so beautiful.

[01:15:12] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I run alumni groups specifically for that, for folks who have done it.

[01:15:16] Dr. Lydia: I was gonna add, I didn't wanna put another thing on your plate.

[01:15:19] Dr. Nicole: No. Yeah. I already have them. Right. So like, I already have them. I do them. And what is in the future is having like an in-person Yeah. Chicago immersion where we do like a full, there's a dungeon.

I'm ready to rent. Like I know the dungeon. Mm. I know the people I'd like to fly out to help facilitate an immersion and a weekend and,

[01:15:38] Dr. Lydia: mm.

[01:15:38] Dr. Nicole: That's, that's a huge thing too. 'cause a lot of people in the groups were talking about like play parties and just like. How do we find more places that are more queer?

More queer and bipoc specifically, you know, in terms of like just diversity of, of play parties. 'cause it's often very like white and very heteronormative at times. And so like, I'm like, yeah, I would love to help facilitate more of these spaces and these things. So that's definitely. Definitely the next,

[01:16:02] Dr. Lydia: and if they got around just to create them, you know, having just moved to this huge city, I am still trying to figure out where those, where is it kind of underground communities are and it's like, I don't have Nicole here.

I have to send you here. Like, I have to start creating these spaces.

[01:16:17] Dr. Nicole: Well, when's your coaching website coming out? I keep telling you this.

[01:16:20] Dr. Lydia: Oh my goodness. Let me pass this exam next week. Yeah. And then, and then I'll really have the people off my back.

[01:16:27] Dr. Nicole: Totally,

[01:16:27] Dr. Lydia: totally. I really, yeah. Dear listener, I'm, I'm taking the EPPP, also called the E Triple P, and after that, I will truly, truly be liberated.

[01:16:39] Dr. Nicole: Be done, be done.

[01:16:40] Dr. Lydia: Oh, small year of supervised work, but

[01:16:43] Dr. Nicole: yeah. Isn't that the biggest mind? Fuck, it's like five years, the doctorate, then the post. Oh, and then another year oh seven. Oh God. And then, and then just continual ce It is just, it's a, it's a never ending membership to the,

[01:16:56] Dr. Lydia: it's a never ending membership.

And then like you never graduate from therapy.

[01:17:00] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly. The psychodynamics, maybe the Ccbt folks, the C, some of the CCBT folks graduated after one year, even like 10 sessions, you know, like the psychodynamic folks, we are in there. For a lifetime.

[01:17:12] Dr. Lydia: We're in your dreams, we're in your home. It's like kitchen table, but it's like with your therapist,

[01:17:18] Dr. Nicole: straight up the psychodynamic people.

Yeah, for sure, dude. For sure.

[01:17:22] Dr. Lydia: Yeah. It's so beautiful though. It, it's been so wonderful to be able to hold this space for you and just watch you speak about yourself because you're always holding the space for other people and it's so beautiful how you, like you said, like the depth of that connection is how deep you go and you definitely push, push the people that you Yeah.

Speak to, into, into depth that you are willing to go to and you're showing them, I'm willing to go here. You wanna come here with me?

[01:17:49] Dr. Nicole: Yeah,

[01:17:49] Dr. Lydia: totally. And they're always comfortable and they're always like, yeah, let's go.

[01:17:52] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I always do a consent talk before we dive in about like, is your personal life on the table?

Like how do you feel about that? Mm-hmm. I try to like contain, create that container. And it's funny like in terms of just judgment and perception, I feel like when we were doing this episode, I was thinking like. Something's gonna be like, Dr. Nicole is so full of herself, she brings her friend Lydia on here, and all she does is just talk about herself.

And it's like, ah, fuck. That's like actually the point, like this is like once a year, like once a year.

[01:18:22] Dr. Lydia: I mean, this is once a year. Once a year.

[01:18:24] Dr. Nicole: I do once a year. I know. So then I was like, I had to like literally while we were recording, do that mental work of like, I've told Dr. Lydia that the second she's ready for her own episode, I will hold her and we will go for this container.

This is actually the point, you know, but like, that's the judgment thing that you like, it just creeps in. Like the person who's like,

[01:18:44] Dr. Lydia: she's so, you're always the helper. It's hard to be,

[01:18:46] Dr. Nicole: yeah,

[01:18:47] Dr. Lydia: it's hard, the receiver. But like you said, you know, like you can't always be like giving in sex. It's just not, it's not gonna be pleasurable if you're not gonna sit there and receive.

[01:18:56] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:18:56] Dr. Lydia: And you really need both because if you don't receive, then even when you get what you want, it won't feel satisfying. You'll get what you want. You'll be like, but I want more.

[01:19:04] Dr. Nicole: Right? Yeah. You have to be held. It's all about. Balance. Absolutely. And I forgot to tell you, the last question you have to ask me is about the normalizing.

What's one thing I wanna normalize? I forgot to put that on there. 'cause that's the question that always happens,

[01:19:19] Dr. Lydia: Nicole?

[01:19:20] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Yes. Dr. Lydia. What?

[01:19:23] Dr. Lydia: Yes. Yes, Dr. Nicole. Okay. Last question. Yes. What is something that you need to normalize more in the coming year? What are you calling in and what are you de-stigmatizing? Desing?

[01:19:38] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I think it's funny because every time that someone else has done this on the show, I've said they've passed the anarchist check and that's when they deconstruct the concept of normal. And like,

[01:19:52] Dr. Lydia: ooh,

[01:19:53] Dr. Nicole: yeah. There's so many people who have just been like, as an anarchist, I don't agree with that.

It's blah, blah, blah. You know? And there's something about that that feels very aligned in the here and the now because. There are so many things that are considered, quote unquote normal, that are not signs of health. And I think that's really one I wanna hold is like normalizing that normality is not health.

Like if you look at our world and what we see

[01:20:20] Dr. Lydia: mm-hmm.

[01:20:21] Dr. Nicole: That is not necessarily health. Like there's that quote that it's no sign of health to be well adjusted to a sick society. So if you look at something, I didn't do that, you know, that's someone else I wanna, yeah. Okay. Uh, respect to Yes, totally is respect to who it comes from.

Um, 'cause we, especially as clinicians, right, we look at data and we're like, oh, this is normal. But that is not a sign of our health. That is not even a sign necessarily of the person and often a sign more of the system that they're in, right? Mm-hmm. And so when we see like this amount of blank is normal, that is actually not necessarily something we wanna just sit with, right?

Like it's, um, you know, the female orgasm disorder that's in the, the DSM, which mm-hmm. There's a lot. We could go down a whole other episode on that, but it was 42% of women, somewhere in the ballpark between like 40 to 50% of women at some point will struggle with this in their life. Mm-hmm. And so when you're looking at a female orgasm disorder, somewhere between 40 to 50%, you could say statistically that is pretty normal.

[01:21:18] Dr. Lydia: Yeah.

[01:21:19] Dr. Nicole: But in no way, shape, or form am I going to say that that is a sign of health and in no way, shape or form am I going to put that on me or any other femme or woman because it's a reflection of the fucking society that we live in and the amount of repression that we have lived under, because this is not okay.

So yeah, it's normal.

[01:21:41] Dr. Lydia: Mm.

[01:21:42] Dr. Nicole: But it is not health. It is not, yeah. And like you could just extrapolate that to, so like the lack of healthcare, the student, like you could just, yeah. Every single fucking thing that we see in the world right now is like,

[01:21:52] Dr. Lydia: it's normal to not get paid for four years doing therapy, but it's not healthy.

And so what does Norm, like, what does normalization even mean? Like, this goes to the question of like, should you even normalize anything? Right? Like, is this even like a valuable thing to do or do you need to know the mean, so you could know how much I'm deviating from the mean? Like sometimes like I know that I'm.

Not, you know, I know what, I know what average is and you know, obviously I'm not average. Yeah. It's, I know like how much I'm deviating from like what a normal, like a, an average person would see. I, I think there's a difference between like average and normal. Like, I think like normal has a connotation of better, or, you know, growing up my parents were always like, why can't you be normal?

[01:22:42] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:22:42] Dr. Lydia: You're like, so weird. Yeah. You know, and I would be like, of course I'm weird. I'm queer.

[01:22:47] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:22:47] Dr. Lydia: You know?

[01:22:48] Dr. Nicole: Exactly

[01:22:48] Dr. Lydia: Right. I'm non-binary. I'm, I'm poly, I'm, I'm, I'm different. Right. But with biodiversity, like we know that biodiversity is important. You know, we know like the, the pain and the problems that happen when there's no biodiversity.

So then like why is neurodiversity, why is sexual diversity, why is even like psychology, diversity. How is that not the new normal, like biodiversity I'd consider is pretty normalized,

[01:23:15] Dr. Nicole: right?

[01:23:16] Dr. Lydia: So is that maybe where we're going?

[01:23:18] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I mean, ideally, yeah. We, we step into a world where we hold more nuance and complexity and so yeah.

It's, it's who's ever defining what is the norm, right? It's like, um, kink is whatever is taboo for you. Right. Which is constantly ever evolving. Mm-hmm. Like the BDSM test has non-monogamy as one of the kinky things that you can test high. It's like that doesn't feel kinky to me. You know, having done this for so many years, like that is not.

Inherently kinky. I just am not mono. Like this doesn't feel Yeah. You know, but at the beginning when I never like being

[01:23:50] Dr. Lydia: like, oh, I'm gay, that's kinky.

[01:23:52] Dr. Nicole: You know? Right. Well, in a certain time period. And certain cultures and certain parts of the world. Oh, yeah. And certain, yeah, absolutely. Right. So like I think the, the heart of the question was always like, what's that universal thing that ties us together that we want more people to know is acceptable?

And we hit on that in so many different ways in terms of like fear, self-doubt. Mm-hmm. The need for community to regulate and be seen, right? Mm-hmm. Like. This shit's still scary. Like, don't let anybody fool you. You know? Like it was even, it was even like literally, like, I think it was, um, was it Nick Jonas?

Like literally I saw a me like a reel the other day of Nick Jonas on the red carpet having an anxiety attack.

[01:24:31] Dr. Lydia: Like, oh, Nick,

[01:24:32] Dr. Nicole: I know exactly. Not the Jonas brothers. You know, like, you're just like, yeah, like that's normal. Like humanness. Mm-hmm. Like you're in front of the lights and the cameras and it's like, I think that was the heart of the question of like, what is, what's normal?

[01:24:46] Dr. Lydia: Yeah. Calling it all in, calling in humans as normal.

[01:24:48] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly.

[01:24:49] Dr. Lydia: Maybe, maybe expanding the umbrella is like normalization as just everything is normal. Everything, you know, maybe not everything is average, maybe not everything's the mean, the mode, but everything is normal. Everything is your own bottom line, like.

For a vegan, it'd be like normal to eat tofu every day.

[01:25:08] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:25:08] Dr. Lydia: And that's their normal, but like, do I need to normalize tofu so everyone eats tofu every day? Like No, but to the vegan, I'm like, you too are normal. Yeah. You're part of us.

[01:25:20] Dr. Nicole: Totally. Yeah. You get your mean media mode.

[01:25:22] Dr. Lydia: You're a lot of humanness and a lot of like, I don't need to be a certain way or do a certain thing and just be human.

Yeah. And how much of that is just like, so, like, so much narratives, like still, I still struggle with this like, and at, and starting a new job, so I wanna come in as a human. Right. But I also wanna come in and, you know, I don't wanna be too crazy. Right. They, they just met me. I don't wanna be like, Hey, let's talk about sex and drugs.

[01:25:47] Dr. Nicole: Right, right.

[01:25:47] Dr. Lydia: I'm like, we got hired.

[01:25:49] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Is this safe? Right, right.

[01:25:52] Dr. Lydia: Is the safe. Is this safe? But they do, they'll, they'll have, um, ketamine offerings. That's great. And so great. So I'll be expanding their integration program and doing things like that. And so for them, that's already part of their normal umbrella.

Yeah. So I come in and talk about that. They're like, okay, this is, we're accepting you 'cause we already mm-hmm.

[01:26:11] Dr. Nicole: Are there. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. I'm excited for your website to see your offerings, Dr. Lidia very, very soon after you crush this e Triple P as you name your mean media and mode because you're ready for the statistical part.

You're ready.

[01:26:25] Dr. Lydia: I'm ready.

[01:26:26] Dr. Nicole: 2% Percent. The stats like 2%.

[01:26:29] Dr. Lydia: Never gonna use

[01:26:31] Dr. Nicole: I know that's the worst part

[01:26:32] Dr. Lydia: There is so much information in my brain. I wish there was an existential,

[01:26:36] Dr. Nicole: oh,

[01:26:37] Dr. Lydia: portion of it. I wish there was a philosophical, like, existential offering of, of these things. But instead it's statistics and that is really where the norm, you know, a t squared against the normal distribution that when you say normal, like that's.

But I, I love in like the way that like everything. Everything is human.

[01:26:59] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:26:59] Dr. Lydia: And what is more human than sex and relationships? Yeah. We would have no society if we didn't have empathy, if we didn't have desire, if we didn't care about what people thought about us on the street. I'm always trying to decentralize, oh, you know, not everyone has to like me, but yet I like still get out of people's way when they're walking really fast because I'm like, oh.

I don't wanna be in your way. Like, I'm trying to make life easier for the people around me because I know if I just stand still, like, you're gonna hate me and I can't deal with that.

[01:27:26] Dr. Nicole: Isn't that the New Yorker way though? To just like, totally not move, like somehow

[01:27:30] Dr. Lydia: the New Yorker way is to move. If you're, if you're in the way, like, Hey, I'm walking here.

That's the New Yorker. Put a bad rep because the, the cultural consciousness is up here where people are like aware of everyone on the street.

[01:27:43] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:27:43] Dr. Lydia: So you're, you got it. You're not here. Got it. If you're like not aware.

[01:27:46] Dr. Nicole: Got it.

[01:27:47] Dr. Lydia: And you like, don't get outta the way, like that's when you get yelled at.

[01:27:49] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

'cause I'm from LA so it's like we're chilling on the beach. Like this is very,

[01:27:55] Dr. Lydia: you're driving and fun,

[01:27:56] Dr. Nicole: you know Chicago now, but different, but like yeah. The New York mentality that you're in. Whole other world. A whole other world. But

[01:28:03] Dr. Lydia: yeah. What's normal here? But what, what is really amazing about the city, the New York City that I've noticed is that like everything is normal.

Yeah. Crying on the subway is normal.

[01:28:13] Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah.

[01:28:13] Dr. Lydia: Like shouting on the phone is normal.

[01:28:15] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:28:15] Dr. Lydia: Like meeting someone at a crosswalk and then them becoming your best friend is normal. Oh. Finding someone that you like talked to on the train and then. You like, leave and never talk to them again is normal. You know, I dropped my AirPod on the train and I was getting off at the next stop and everyone's not talking to each other.

Right. It's New York. No one looks at each other and I kick out my other AirPod and I'm like, I have 30 seconds before my stop. Does anyone see an AirPod? Immediate? Everyone looks on the ground. Aw. Someone grabs it to me, they pass it through, they, I pop it in my ears and I walk out.

[01:28:47] Dr. Nicole: Wow. Wow. Yeah. The collective energy is still there.

Yeah.

[01:28:52] Dr. Lydia: I just gotta find my people.

[01:28:54] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, once you're done studying, you certainly will. You're in the Yeah. You're in, you're exactly where you're meant to be in this exact moment.

[01:29:03] Dr. Lydia: Absolutely. And it's, it's just so beautiful. We're just in, we're just babies. I'm so glad we met during our training program.

Yeah. I get to see some of these ideas form in real time.

[01:29:15] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:29:15] Dr. Lydia: You get to, you know, you would come to me with like, Hey, I, I think this is like a way that I could expand my offering. And I'm like, cool. And then like three weeks later you're like, Hey, I did it.

[01:29:25] Dr. Nicole: I straight up remember being with you on the floor, being like, how do I put this on my website?

And like, literally the two of us being like, well, I think if we add that, then like just straight up trying to figure out how to add it on the website as

[01:29:38] Dr. Lydia: mm-hmm.

[01:29:41] Dr. Nicole: How exciting. See, that's the joy. That's what I love about relationships is like the growth that you go through with people when they're like, remember when you, yeah.

You're like, ugh. Yeah. Actually

[01:29:52] Dr. Lydia: it's like when I'm like holding your hand and you're like giving birth, you know? Yeah. I'm like there

[01:29:57] Dr. Nicole: totally.

[01:29:58] Dr. Lydia: That, that's an experience. You can't,

[01:30:00] Dr. Nicole: thank you.

[01:30:01] Dr. Lydia: You can't let that go.

[01:30:02] Dr. Nicole: Thank you for birthing with me today. I'm really, really grateful. It's nice to get to sit back.

[01:30:07] Dr. Lydia: Oh, it's so nice to be able to, to hold this space for you and, and to hear more about your experience and all of a lot has changed.

[01:30:14] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:30:15] Dr. Lydia: In this past year.

[01:30:16] Dr. Nicole: I know.

[01:30:16] Dr. Lydia: And a lot has grown and it's just gonna, I mean based on like how year one to year two went and then year two to year three, it's like every year it's like more and more growth.

[01:30:29] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely.

[01:30:30] Dr. Lydia: Who knows?

[01:30:32] Dr. Nicole: Who knows, who knows what. We'll be there together is what we'll do.

[01:30:36] Dr. Lydia: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And so all of all of you dear listeners.

[01:30:42] Dr. Nicole: Totally.

[01:30:43] Dr. Lydia: And I'm the alumni group. Oh my gosh, what? Good group of humans.

[01:30:47] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[01:30:49] Dr. Lydia: The stellar orbit of constellations of all these humans and their little lives and

[01:30:53] Dr. Nicole: honored

[01:30:54] Dr. Lydia: just orbiting around each other and, and having these like greater stages of change.

[01:30:58] Dr. Nicole: Honored. So beautiful, honored, and people will look forward to your episode, Dr. Lydia, whenever that is. Wink, wink, wink. Whenever you're ready.

[01:31:06] Dr. Lydia: Wink wink coming soon.

[01:31:09] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly. Exactly, exactly. Well, thank you, lover. Thank you. Thank you.

[01:31:14] Dr. Lydia: Aw, this is amazing. Thank you, love.

[01:31:19] Dr. Nicole: Dear listener, thank you so much for tuning in to Modern Anarchy.

Thank you for sharing this episode with your. Friends with your lovers, with your community. Truly, it means so much to me, and I am so grateful that you are here. If you are wanting to release jealousy in your nonmonogamous dynamics and step into a compersion. And pleasure filled connection. You can read my book, the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide for free on my website.

There you'll also find so many other free resources, including worksheets on how to clearly communicate and set commitments and boundaries within your non-monogamous dynamics and other ways to practice clear communication about your sexual desires so that you can step into your most pleasure filled sex and relationships.

So head on over to modern Anarchy podcast.com to find all of those free resources, and I look forward to seeing you next week.