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127. Every Breath Can Be an Orgasm: Intimacy, Social Justice, and Somatics with Caffyn Jesse

Nicole: The first question I like to ask is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

Caffyn: Well, you know, I'm like an old person, a queer person, a sex worker, um, a sacred intimate user of illegal drugs and, uh, sort of basically an outlaw that I've made, you know, kind of all the paths that have And, uh, sort It's been so important to me and key to who I am in the world, have been kind of outlaw paths.

Yeah, I mean I'm known as a, like a teacher of intimacy education and somatic sex education. And I'm pretty much, like I retired from that. I have an online program that I I offer teaching through, I'm no longer teaching in the somatic sex education program. And with that, I felt free to be more open about, you know, kind of my explorations in linking somatics and psychedelics that have been important part of my life over the years.

So that's just kind of part of my new public voice is that I'm really interested in. In that weave and, and that exploration, which I'm just, you know, sharing a bit more publicly.

Nicole: Is that where you'd want to start? Part of me wants to ask, like, what's your story to getting here and have the space? But yeah, we could also start with somatics and psychedelics and kind of hop in there too.

Caffyn: Yes. I, I don't know, you know, for, for many years now, I've, I've been developing practices with just with my friends where I do weave somatic practices and the erotic together with like fairly low dose psychedelic medicines, and it just it seems to have yielded just like amazing. Portals to like joyful ways of being and, and, uh, enhanced intimacies and a sense of being able to be more, uh, intimate with, uh, more than human world.

And so I've just started now that I'm retired, just kind of making that public and sharing that more with, uh, with others. So yeah. Any questions you have are welcome.

Nicole: I mean, let's start from the beginning of that. I mean, what does that look like? What have you seen? I have my own personal experiences and thoughts with it all, but yeah, I'd be curious what you've seen in your work.

Caffyn: You know, I do think like there's so many dangers and yeah, I'm going to be doing a webinar. Thank you. in the fall about, uh, you know, where I talk to people that are doing these practices more with clients, which I'm not really doing, but, um, you know, and someone that really had a bad experience where they didn't feel able to guide the experience and, you know, like a psychedelic can put you in a place where you don't feel expanded capacity that you don't really have.

And of course, this is no different than what I've been working with for years, just in working with somatics and the erotic. You know, we're working with the same endogenous neurochemistry as the molecules of the psychedelic medicines work with. But, you know, just as Somatic practices and somatic sex education can, you know, help us have these big somatic openings that help us see who we want to be, you know, can resource our neurochemistry by, by orienting us.

I mean, like yourself, I came from a background of trauma and a queer person and like this constant cultural messaging that, you know, sex is bad, I'm bad, like, you know, You know, where sex has to take certain forms that were like completely horrible to me. Like, we're constantly experiencing that, you know, the ongoing trauma, let alone the, you know, experiences of sexual violence and that, you know, somatic practices.

ecstatic practices and psychedelic medicines, like they give us these portals into other ways of being and seeing and yeah, just I understand something of the, the actual science of it, the neurochemistry of it, and how, how they work with our neuroendocrine system. And I don't think people, you know, we don't have to take psychedelics, we can do Create the same kind of ecstatic somatic openings with masturbation or, or breathing.

And, you know, for some psychedelic medicines or specific medicines really, really help. So, and for me, that's certainly been the case. They've been like, just. Wonderful resourcing experiences. And part of that has been developing a community of practice where I can talk about it and integrate it and make mistakes and try something else.

And, and that's been so key. And I think if we only do our psychedelics in the sort of dominant culture paradigms where you have like a therapist and you have high, like high degree of control and you have Yeah, You know, basically the kind of enclosures of capitalism and colonialism around the medicines, then we're not going to really tap the tremendous potential in them.

Mm hmm.

Nicole: Mm hmm. Exactly. Exactly. So what has that looked like for you? Like what has the medicine helped to open?

Caffyn: Oh, like, um. Intimacy, like real beautiful loverships with multiple partners that where we're just like, oh, creating something like an us that could not be if we hadn't converged and been guided and assisted by psychedelics is like, so, you know, what forms of erotic joy can we explore?

What forms of being in the world can we evolve that only we could? Do just like the two of us because like this feeling of wanting to be the unique one I am and to love the other for the unique one they are like in these kind of the dynamic of queerness. I've been working a little bit one on one with people again in a new model where people come and work with me and it's just, it's been amazing just to like, like these unique.

Beings that we are can gather and like, what can we co create and yeah, somehow the psychedelics really resource that for me and I think you know that because they, they get us out of the default mode network of our regular thinking patterns and give us that access to a wild mind like a more creative mind.

They do help us understand like, like our traumas and the ongoing traumas don't have to. define us, like in the sense of being reactive, being fearful, you know, like, like they can shape us and we can choose something beyond them. So intimacy, well, I have, I have this little thing, intimacy, ecstasy and integrity.

And to me, like all those three things can support one and just like the psychedelic medicine. And the somatic practices together that I feel like they give me enhanced access to each one of those quadrants or whatever, one third of my little thing. Yeah. That's rhyming with what you've, you've experienced here, your nodding.

Nicole: Oh, absolutely. Right. I mean, it depends, maybe on the psychedelic, at least, like, you know, something like cannabis feels very different than M D M A versus Ketamine versus p. Mm-hmm. , I mean, all these, I mean, maybe they're all same multiple doors to a similar level of consciousness, but they've all felt different.

Right. Yeah. But like Totally. Yeah. That absolutely. opening of the heart, right? To, to feel sensation more and whether that's intimacy or even like touch or anything, it just really opens up a level, hence the risk to it, but also what the reward here and these high risk, high reward states when you're being intimate with another person.

I mean, it's been transformative and, and every time I feel like it cracks my heart open a little bit deeper, you know?

Caffyn: Wonderful. Yeah. Mm. Yes. And I feel like the key is like evolving our intimate network so that we, you know, we can actually do it for each other with each other, you know, and be the safe enough, brave enough spaces for each other to, to keep evolving these practices.

Nicole: Yeah. And I guess part of this is maybe the intention setting, right? Because at least, you know, I'll see in my work with clients, like, I mean, when the intention is to process trauma and other heavy things, like that's what comes up and it can often be a difficult experience where really heavy memories are coming up at that time.

So that's not, you know, that joyful ecstasy moment. So maybe it's about that, like intention setting of going into the medicine with that experience of wanting to focus on intimacy and connection and the sensation.

Caffyn: Well I feel like trauma is not separate from that, right? It's not separate from intimacy and it's like woven into our experience of the world.

Yeah. It's going to come up.

Nicole: It's hard me because it's like a, at least one of the words I like is the, um, non specific amplifier. Right. So I, and I also want to hold space for the reality that when you're on the medicine, it can take you places that you did not expect that you needed to go right. Like that is a full reality and also the, the ability to set intentions and redirect the focus.

Caffyn: Yeah, I tend to work with, like, quite low dose psychedelics, so that... There is some greater element of choice.

Nicole: Sure. Sure. Yeah, that's a huge piece of that, right? Like, we talk about psychedelics, but you have to talk about like the dose scene of it, which can radically change the experience.

Caffyn: Yeah, that when working, like, with trauma and traumatized people, like.

Having more choice and I, you know, sometimes I want to choose to go like deep into a medicine experience where I need a guide and I need, you know, I want to be taken like, like this to surrender. Sure. But in the kind of practices that I am. Teaching and modeling that, that are different is just more low dose and, and more, there's just more choice and, and, um, having that experience of choice and efficacy and, you know, with an expanded consciousness, I feel is.

Helpful. Mm hmm. You know, and the other might also be helpful. Certainly I like to do it a couple times a year or something, but, but this is more sort of a, a regular monthly practice or something.

Nicole: Yeah, would you be willing to share what that looks like? Because I think. Part of my like larger political hope is that, you know, I'm learning a lot in school.

I talked to all these amazing people on the podcast. Like how can we bring this information to be shared publicly in a free space, like a podcast, right? So that millions of people can have access to whatever we're talking about. So I'd be curious if you could share a little bit more about like what that practice looks like.

Caffyn: Well, I have a, like a number of different practices that I do and I have tried to share them freely through, um. An online program that I offer, right? But, uh, like, say one would be the welcome home practice where we take turns taking, like, say, in a group of three, you know, or not the sort of regular dose of MDMA, three MMC, maybe some mushrooms, just depending on, you know, the people and what's.

Their medicine choice of the day, but, um, where, where we can still dialogue with the medicines, but also dialogue with one another, then we might come together and take turns bringing some part of us that's been really hard to hold. And so maybe some like, really uncomfortable parts, um, like pompous ass part of us that people have really hated or some.

You know, very traumatized part or some wonderful and amazing part that people just haven't been able to hold because it's like too big and shiny for people and just bring that part to. To be held. And so we would take turns like dialoguing with that part trying to feel where is it in the body. What does it feel like in the level of sensation, vibration, temperature, color, and, um, Really try and, like, flesh it out as a somatic experience, rather than having an interpretive, like, head experience of it.

And then once we really get to know it at the somatic level, it's like, if that part had a voice, what would it say? How would that part like to be touched? And, um. So really to welcome that part of us that's been so unwelcome, you know, maybe some part, you know, like, say, suicidality. It's like, oh, I struggle, like, with suicidality.

I just want to get rid of that and be happy. But instead, I've had friends, like, Just like, okay, tell me where that is in your body. Let me hold it. Like, they're not trying to make it go away. They're just, like, trying to be with it. Like, help me be with that part of me that's just, like, always ready to end it.

And get to know it. Let it feel held. Let it feel pleasure. Like, what does it have to say? You know, what it was there for. And Yeah, that has been, like, so profound for me, where I just don't have to feel anymore that I'm, I'm loved, like, only for the, the good parts of me, right? But that these other icky, horrible parts that I've wanted to get rid of, and other people have wanted to get rid of, can actually show up and be loved.

Nicole: Yeah. Very powerful stuff. I don't think I've talked about parts work on the podcast yet. I work and train and with the place, um, that does the psychedelic work that works from an internal family systems perspective. So frequently hearing about parts, but I don't think I've ever had someone actually talk about it on the podcast yet.

So I'd be curious even, you know, you talked about it.

Caffyn: My lovers that I. Yeah, my lover said I work with her drawing on the internal family systems and I'm, I'm more coming from the archetypal psychology stream and we weave them together and, and yeah, that, uh, idea that all, all the parts of us can be welcomed and integrated, like.

You know, we might not want them always driving the bus, but they all have something to say and be part of the council of ourselves.

Nicole: Sure, sure, sure. So then in this sort of one that we kind of started to talk about, this would be a situation where you have. To other people with you there, and you're starting to talk about maybe a part that is speaking or like, yeah, what does that look like?

How do you identify which part or is it a pain point? Or like, where do you go?

Caffyn: Well, we usually come together with, you know, something we've been struggling with and we. Don't create a part out of it and have these embodied experiences. And then like the medicine, you know, is an important part of it because it just, it gives us spaciousness around our routine thoughts and habits and like our reticence around touch and connection and intimacy.

And, and so, We can have these, like, profound embodied experiences of being held in all our parts. And that's something I started doing with my loves, Tricia Bowler and Michael Haynes. So I should give them credit. They have a whole teaching called, uh, Being Held. And, uh, and we've been doing that together for many years.

And it's, it's really... Yeah, becomes sort of a key part of like the way I want to love and be loved is, you know, like a, an attitude of stance towards all my, my difficult parts and unworthiness and everything. It's just like, well, yeah.

Nicole: Yeah, I mean, say more because I think a lot of people will have various parts of themselves that they absolutely hate and are shamed, you know, feel shame about.

I'm curious if you could flesh that out for someone who would probably resonate with the way that you've been able to accept and love those parts.

Caffyn: Well, say, um, you know, we all have this part of ourselves that feels like so unworthy of love. Like, normally, like, if you go into a conversation with that part, like, I say, Oh, I don't deserve to live.

I don't deserve to be loved. And people would offer you a contradiction of like, Oh, well, of course you do. You know, you're this and you're that, and you're fantastic and you're just fine. And you're so lovable, you know, so the person might be. Reassured by that, or you know, that might be what they wanted.

But if I go to my loves with that complaint, they'd go like, Oh, really, tell me more about this undeserving part of you. Like, what do they feel like, you know, where, where are you feeling that in your body? And then, like, I realized through those kind of It's like, well, of course I'm undeserving, like, where did this whole idea of deservingness come from anyway?

And why not experience like the grace and the magic of aliveness and like the random luck of it? And to, I mean, how can we experience grace if we're all think we have to be all deserving of that? I mean, that is preposterous. Anyway. It just, it gave me a whole new, I don't know, way of inhabiting the world and the course sort of struggle for worthiness.

It's just like, well, I'm not worthy, so yeah. So let it go. I don't need to be mm-hmm. .

Nicole: Yeah. Whose definition of worthiness am I trying to live up to? Right. That's always a fun one to really like, yeah.

Caffyn: Sit with like hierarchical notion that there's some that deserve and some don't. And you know, there's this kind of.

Register deservingness. It really is a weird idea, yet it's so core that you know that people would think it's so unloving like not to contradict that statement of unworthiness.

Nicole: Right. And it's so dependent at least I think on like the relationships you have rather to like society at large. Right. And the close relationships you have around you.

Right. Like, That sense of worthiness, I feel like is so predicated upon like, am I accepted? And so, you know, growing up queer, you know, not being accepted by my family, right? Like that can do a lot, not being accepted by society that can do so much to like create that sort of narrative unworthiness. And so I always love to ask clients too.

I'm like, yeah. So what standard, like who said this message and where, and like identifying that and then being able to let that go can be really transformative.

Caffyn: Yeah, yeah, there see you're already doing that.

Nicole: Yeah, I'm changing the community right? Because if you stay in that community, it doesn't like it.

you're still going to be ostracized. Like, at some point, that's when chosen family, right, of queerness becomes really important. Yeah. Yeah. And I know, too, you had mentioned that ecstasy is a key important for social change. I'm curious, what does that mean for you?

Caffyn: Well, I feel like, um, you know, so much of our understanding of What we want, what we want to see, what we want to create in the way of social change is like because of all the unsafety that we experienced that we're, we make safety our most important goal.

And. I, you know, there's been a lot of wonderful work through somatics, through somatic abolitionism, Resmaa Menakem's work on undoing racism at the somatic level, about really stepping up into courageous resistance, um, like really going beyond. The, you know, retreat into safety and pushing into more like, like, courageous embodiment.

And I just feel that's so important. And I want to just add that. even like beyond courage and resonance with other humans and everything, there is the realm also of the ecstatic, basically when we go into our, you know, expanded orgasmic response, however, whatever that looks like, or feels like, and, you know, people have very limited understandings of what what orgasm is, but I experienced like the Orgasm in many different ways, but it's like at the outer edges of our, our nervous system where we basically that far from equilibrium that we kind of cascade into orgasmic response that can land us then in a sense of being done and feeling satisfied.

And I feel like that. Move like into like out from safety into courageous resistance into resonance with other humans and into an ecstatic response of like beyond our individuality into the place where individuality dissolves and we feel like connected with with all of life. That's kind of a. primary movement of amplification of the nervous system that we can all become proficient enough at and practice, practice it every day in many ways to feel ourselves moving out past the realm of safety into these expanded capacities.

And that just feels like key to social change movement to me, because if we're always just Just trying to stay safe, it's like my safety, your safety, over here, over there, like, it doesn't work. Yes, we need our moments of safety, but not to make safety like our go to goal. Yeah,

Nicole: I would say we need a pleasure revolution, I would say.

Caffyn: Yeah. Well, I'm signing up for that.

Nicole: I am ready. I'm curious, what does that look like in praxis? Like, what, where do we start? You know, I'm, I'm, I'm trying to engage with you, and like, what would I start to do if I was trying to step into this?

Caffyn: What do you do? Like, what is your ecstatic practice already? What are you doing?

Um. What do you mean by that? Well, like, are you, um, you know, having great sex? Are you, um, masturbating? Are you using your breath? Are you exploring medicine work? Are you jumping in the cold lake? Are you, you know, like, going on roller coasters? Like, scaring yourself, thrilling yourself. I mean, eating an ice cream can be an ecstasy.

It's, it's... It's like going to like ultimate extent of maximum reach of your nervous system into like the thrill and pleasures and all the ways we do that singing. There's just many different ways to connect with the ecstatic and just like those feelings. that we have. I mean, it can be activism. It can be like being in a movement, uh, out in the streets, um, carrying signs, being part of, of a group, or being alone, like a leading, leading something, or standing alone, getting lost in art making.

There's many ways where we kind of access an altered state of consciousness where we, you know, are able to feel this kind of transcendent sense of belonging to something larger than ourselves. You know, everybody has different ways to do it, but we're all already doing it. It's like we, we don't know or like get that this is important and that this is a shared thing.

It's part of like, like our, our practice of being the full humans that we are. Mm. Mm hmm. Does that make sense?

Nicole: Yes, it does. And I, I loved the examples of like the vast ways that you can connect to that level of pleasure and ecstasy, right? Dancing, sex, right? For me, it's also rock climbing, right? Or I went to the beach and I walked along the sand and I played in the sand and I let the sand go.

I'm going to like, play with nature. I did a little bit of an eco sexual conversation with someone a few episodes back. Uh, right. So like all of those pieces, and at least if I'm hearing correctly and thinking about this with you, it's that like, those pieces and that energy, that life energy is also what allows us to be more active in social change.

Caffyn: Yeah, and to be active in a way where it's just not all oriented to separation and safety, but where it's oriented to like feeling ourselves in this web of life and death and and feeling like that. The pleasure, the satisfaction that like the expansion of like these outer reaches of our nervous system and that like when they study the neuroendocrine system it's that those times of like savoring satisfaction and savoring this like extensive I've gotten to some place that some expanded place.

That's where the neural rewiring happens. So when we want to become and embody something other than capitalism and colonialism would have us be, you know, like fearful, reactive, isolated, you know, showing up in our separated pod for, for work and play and like without ever feeling like I am part of this.

biosphere, this weave of wonderfulness, that it's just, to me, it's just a key resource for the ongoing work and, and in becoming what we You know, what we want to embody.

Nicole: Absolutely. And I think that, yeah, more people stepping into that, it's, it's counterculture, right? Like choosing your pleasure in our society is counterculture.

So quickly people start to say like, you know, when we're fighting for social change, like we should be upset and angry and it's true, right? At the same time, like most of us who are probably listening to this podcast have a tremendous amount of privilege. And I think that if we stay in that anger state, like it's also like ignoring the gift that we do have in our privilege of this world to like, enjoy the pleasure that is possible, right?

Like I, it's just such an interesting idea that like to be someone who's acknowledging their privilege in this world means that you have to be like sad and like always angry about the way the world is. It's like, I, I, I at least here. You know, from other countries, like people who look at the U. S. and be like, what the hell are y'all complaining about?

You know what I mean? And I think there's just like such a nuanced answer to like recognizing the immense pain that goes on the world and the immense pleasure and the pleasure that you can step into and how radical that can be to change the world by staying in that space. Yeah.

Caffyn: I mean, I have a little exercise that I like to do about that.

I'll just hold. Yeah. And I mean, going beyond too, that, that window of tolerance. I, I just recently put out a, a little movie on that, of beyond the idea of the window of tolerance, which is kind of like the, like between freeze and fawn and fight and flight, kind of tolerance window. But yeah, I want us to go like way beyond tolerance, like let's get deeply intolerant, push away the powers that be and become like deeply empowered.

In our weirdness, our queerness, our fight for social justice, and an end to what is, in terms of economic systems, and then belong to your longing for what you don't have. And that is a very vulnerable place. Have the courage to belong to your longing, and like, really visualize what you long for. Grasp it in your hands, and then bring it back to you, bring it back into your body, and just feel, feel yourself.

Put that in your body, and have it inside you. know what you want.

Nicole: That's a hard practice for a lot of people. I think if you would have asked me that a couple of years ago, I'd look at you and say, I don't know what I want.

Caffyn: Yeah. I mean, it's a vulnerable practice, right? Because that wanting what we don't have and then that bringing it into our body.

But it is also part of the, the rhythm of, of ecstasy, like to, to learn to embody what we Want to be instead of just like pushing away what we don't have, which to me this is important. This is wonderful. Important part of the movement. Be with the outrage and the indignation. Yes, then also be longing and belonging to your longing.

Nicole: That yes, and absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I'm furious all the fucking time, right? And being able to like channel that and honor that I would say has been a crucial way in which my intimacy and my sexuality has absolutely Right? Like, being able to tap into rage and then channel that, man, my whole life and like sexual power has like exploded with that rage.

And I think that that was so, at least for me as someone who's a woman, like that was so tapped off for years, right? Of like, be nice, be the good girl, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know what I mean?

Caffyn: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Very powerful work. Yeah. And play.

Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. And the way that those come together, then.

And allow, because I think the more people that when you're in that state of pleasure, right? You're able to do more because the opposite is the, you know, trauma response, right? That fight, flight, freeze, fawn to the larger systems that be quite literally, we can not, our body can not exist in that state for long enough to make the larger change that we're dreaming of in the world.

Caffyn: And I mean, going beyond to that, that window of tolerance. I just recently put out a little movie on that of beyond the idea of the window of tolerance, which is kind of like the, like between freeze and fawn and fight and flight kind of tolerance window. But yeah, I want us to go like way beyond tolerance.

Like let's get deeply intolerant, push away the powers that be and become like deeply empowered. In our weirdness, our queerness, our fight for social justice and, and, uh, an end to, an end to what is. In terms of economic systems.

Nicole: Yeah, and you've seen more of that than I have. I'm curious from your perspective, what do you see these days that I probably don't even know as a young little person coming into this world?

Caffyn: Well, I don't know. I see a beautiful emergent movement that so much, you know, trauma is happening and the terror of the imminent end of the biosphere. With that, I feel like this powerful movement rooted in queerness, BIPOC led thinkers, writers, teachers. healers that I just like, everywhere I look, there's new voices, profound wisdom, just like, incredible somatic practices, and I feel like So thrilled by what I see emerging, I mean, at the same time, not to diminish the incredible violence of, of the present day.

So, yeah, but I just, I feel like I want to witness and, uh, and affirm that this is happening. Do you, you're nodding, you, you see it too, you feel it too.

Nicole: I feel it in my bones. I mean, and I think we at least see it on the internet. Like, you know, their access to these ideas. that were, you know, you couldn't access in the past because of the powers at the top that controlled the narrative of what existed in life.

And so maybe you heard about these ideas if you were in a niche little community, but man, when the internet comes out and now these ideas can spread like wild. Fire. I agree. I like, I feel it, you know, and I'm sometimes people push back on me. So I don't know if I'm being too optimistic, but like when I see the younger generations and when I see the access to all these ideas, I'm like, things are changing, things are moving, people are coming together and there are more of us than there are the people at the top.

And I think that's going to start to move and shake the ground.

Caffyn: Yeah. It really feels powerful. I really appreciate you as a young queer person, just embodying that going forward into the future. I couldn't have dreamed up, but it's like, like I would, the thoughts that I had been trying to think and the, I don't know, it feels like companionship that I've never had throughout my life in terms of like intellectual excitement.

And, and it's, well, So much is happening. So I'm glad you feel it too. I'm grateful. I'm deeply grateful. Yeah.

Nicole: And I know earlier too you had mentioned that we have such limited ideas of orgasm. I had written that down in my little notes over here. I'm curious if you could speak to that a little bit more.

Caffyn: Well, um, people always come to work with someone like me because they think they're not having orgasms, they're not having good enough orgasms, they're having too many too quick. Or, you know, people have this idea, like this reified idea of orgasm and what it is or should be. Usually I like to just get them to start paying attention to the orgasms that they're actually already having, and just like deepen in awareness of those.

You know, how do we honor that? How do we focus on that? And, but, however, you experience orgasm, you see, the orgasm in a way is something like trauma, because it's like you, you have this very, uh, challenging experience of your, of your neuroendocrine system, where, where you're challenged to the, the limit, and then orgasm is basically, okay, I've reached the limit, and that's That's that, and so it'll, it'll take you out, it'll take you down again, back to equilibrium.

So it's like, okay, there's as much ecstasy as I can feel, as I can get to today, let's pay attention to it, let's, let's really notice it. What does it actually feel like in my body, in my being, in my soul, in my, my mind, in my... Pelvis. And, um, yeah, I'd like to explore how you can have an orgasm just with your breath, with your imagination, and just use some of these tools of like breath, sound, movement, imagination, touch, to pay attention to the orgasms that were that we're already having and give value, giving them, them space to exist.

And yeah, does that make sense?

Nicole: Yeah. How would I identify the orgasms I'm already having that maybe I'm not even noticing?

Caffyn: Well, you can basically experience it with every, with every breath. We can just, just notice that like with the in breath we, we take in, take in, like expand our aliveness or more, more, more.

And then like hold at the top of it in breath. You're just feeling like this abundance this like maximum tension fullness. And then just, you get to the point where you just like you can't hold it anymore and then you just let go.

Nicole: You'd love my yoga class.

Yeah, I make them do some like, uh, like Navasana little core work at the end, like right at the end, right? Like, I'm like, okay, let's do this. Let's do this poll. Give me more like squeeze, squeeze, squeeze, squeeze, squeeze, squeeze, squeeze, and relax. And the amount of times I've thought about how that's orgasmic, maybe not genitally, but like

Caffyn: Yeah, that's an orgasm.

Like, just every single breath can be an orgasm. Yeah. It's just like, how much do we want to pay attention to it?

Nicole: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And dare I say that that, that's the oneness, right? And that, at least for me, in that moment when I am orgasm. I mean, there is such like, I feel just radical pleasure and I forget the sense of self and you're connected to that oneness.

And I think that's the divinity of that experience. Can I call that my religious practice? I go to church and I pray every single day.

Caffyn: Absolutely. It is. It's like, like, that's what we're actually doing. Like we're the Taurus of electromagnetic energy that that is us, that we just like let go of the edges of it, and we just, okay, and we just kind of flatline and become one with the biosphere and the earth's electromagnetic field.

I mean, this is what, what we're doing with every orgasm, and so that time then spent savoring, like, in the shavasana, in the satisfaction, post orgasmic bliss, is a time of like profound Prayer answered, or an answered prayer, right? Like, we are one.

Nicole: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Absolutely. And if I could give that experience to people, what a different world we would have, right?

Because, at least in my past, and I know so many people that I've worked with, it's like, you have that orgasm and then immediate shame. Oh my God, oh my God, what just happened? Cover the, you know, didn't happen, didn't happen, didn't happen.

Caffyn: Yeah. Wasn't big enough, good enough, too soon, but, it's just like, yeah.

But if you just, if you start just practicing like, Oh, every breath is an orgasm, then you have like a genital orgasm during sex. Hopefully you're just going to enjoy it. And you know, whether there's another one down the line or tomorrow's, it's going to be better. Great. But enjoy the ones you're actually having.

Nicole: Yeah. We could tune into the gift that breath is. I would bet you that those orgasms are going to be even better.

Caffyn: Now, this is not for everyone because you know, when people have been deeply traumatized. They've had that forced upon them, right, like that experience of the obliteration of, of themselves into just like having to surrender the edges of themselves.

And so that's why orgasm can be like a real trauma trigger and trauma can also trigger orgasm. There's a neuroendocrine continuity there that has to be worked with carefully. So, you know, for some people tuning into that orgasmic breath, it's just like way too much too fast. So it's just everyone, we just come at the right pace and what's the right pace for you.

And it may not be, you know, you might savor the orgasm of like looking at a flower or watching a sunsetter. You know, it doesn't have to be sexual or, or genital. I mean, our breath happens to be massaging our genitals from the inside all the time and can be like an inner lover giving us an orgasm every minute.

But, you know, that might be like way too much too fast for someone. So yeah, it's just like, what is your right pace? And there's so many ways. To experience our guests.

Nicole: Yeah, you're doing such like truly divine healing work when you're working with people in that space.

I love that laugh with it too. Yes.

Caffyn: Somewhat wicked laugh.

Nicole: Oh, it's good. I know that laugh. It's good. I know that laugh. I want to hold a little bit of space as we come towards the end of our time in case maybe there was something we didn't hit on that you really wanted to talk about. So otherwise I have a closing question I ask everyone.

Caffyn: Well, I should try and maybe say that I've put together an online program of my life's work, which is, yeah, which people could check out at intimacyeducator. com. Yeah, it's just kind of on the arts and science of sacred intimacy and like working with erotic massage and touch and genital mapping and working with trauma and all the things that I've made like my life's work.

So, just want to, I did want to try and mention that. So, absolutely. Thank you. Now, what were you going to ask, Nicole?

Nicole: I want to ask one question, too. Is there anything that you would say to your 20 year old self in terms of intimacy and sex and pleasure? Like what would you say to that younger self?

Caffyn: Oh, it gets so much better.

Nicole: Woo! I love that! Because that's not the narrative,

Caffyn: the narrative is the dance. It's still getting better for me, like way better. Yeah. Hell yes. I love that. And, and that every year I'm just like, oh, wow, more? Ah! Ah! Ah!

Nicole: I love that. I love that.

Caffyn: It's going to come, Nicole.

Nicole: Well, then I'll ask the closing question I ask all of my guests, which is what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

Caffyn: Not being normal at all.

Nicole: Hell yeah, that's the right answer. It's the secret right answer. Deconstruct the question.

Caffyn: Well, that punishing regime of normal and like the whole idea of pathologizing sexual dysfunctions and like, oh, it's like, so, so brutal.

It's like the whole idea that sex education is about normalizing stuff. I, I hate that. I'm just like, I want to resist the regime of normal like this.

Yeah. It is not what I aspire to. I want your, your whole wild weirdness and

Nicole: I welcome it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think about sex addiction too? Just curious. Cause people throw that one to me too and I'm like, I don't like that, but what do you think?

Caffyn: No. Yeah. I mean, I think that it's, uh, you know, if we have behaviors that feel compulsive, I enjoy, like, working with that by...

Gaining in capacity to like in a, in a realm of infinite variety, like, like where all choices are supported. But, you know, that those compulsive behaviors, compulsive feeling behaviors are a way that you're keeping your sexual energy alive. And for that, I want to thank you because the world needs your sexual energy.

So, yeah, I don't want to. They mean like that feeling of, oh, I really want this to be different and this feels compulsive that that's something. Yeah, that's a good reason to to work with someone. But what you'll learn, hopefully, if you go to the right sex educator, is that keeping your. erotic energy alive in whatever way you have been in this world that wants to kill it and crush it and put it in a box is wonderful.

And there's a gazillion other things and gradually you'll, you'll figure out and develop capacity to make other choices if that's what you want.

Nicole: I appreciate you sharing that and your perspective. And for coming on the podcast today, thank you so much for sharing all of your wisdom with the listeners.


Caffyn: Thank you so much. It's a real honor. So appreciate what you're doing.

Nicole: Of course.

If you enjoyed today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast. And head on over to modernanarchypodcast. com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I want to thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.


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