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195. Following Abundant Pleasure After Purity Culture with Kelly Pastori

Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Kelly join us for a conversation all about embodying your right to pleasure. Together we talk about the transformative power of community, reconnecting with the wisdom of our bodies. And embracing the abundance of the erotic. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy.

I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Nicole, I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration therapy. And I am also the founder of The Pleasure Practice, supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships.

Dear listener, Oh, Following abundant pleasure. Wow, wow, wow, wow. Uh, you know, it's been a while since we have talked about purity culture on the podcast. Wow, what a growth journey, what a growth journey. We've been talking a lot about pleasure these days, you know, as you heal. You talk less about the traumas, you talk less about these pieces of our narrative that once weighed so heavy on my heart, uh, as someone who left purity culture and still sees my family, my Mormon family, in that culture, and Yeah, I think that if, uh, my younger self could see me now, I am confident that she would be praying for me.

I also think she'd be, like, massively intimidated and very intrigued and confused all at the same time. I'm sure my queer panic wouldn't even know, you know, I was so, like, There was so much cognitive dissonance going on, I probably couldn't have even fathomed looking at a human like me and my power now, so it's kind of funny to think back on that, and I hope you too, dear listener, are expanding in your sexual empowerment, so much so that you would be shocking or inspiring or bringing such curiosity to your past self, and I really hope as we continue down this path of pleasure, That we can all open our hearts and our chests more to really take that full deep breath and really exhale into the most erotic, empowered state of existence that you could fathom for yourself and that, as you continue down that journey of empowerment, that you are proud of yourself for every step that you take towards your pleasure.

Alright, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, You can explore my resources and offerings at modernanarchypodcast. com, linked in the show notes below. And I want to say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters. You are supporting the long term sustainability of the podcast.

Keeping this content free and accessible to all people, so thank you. If you want to join the Patreon community, get exclusive access to my research and personal exploration, then you can head on over to patreon. com slash modern anarchy podcast, also linked in the show notes below. And with that, dear listener, please know that I am sending you all my love and let's tune in to today's episode.

So then the first question I ask each guest is how would you like to introduce yourself to the listeners?

Kelly Pastori: Yes. My name is Kelly Pastore. I, I work as a psychotherapist. I live in Austin, Texas, um, but I worked partially in Chicago also. Um, I used to work at Agave in psychotherapy. I work a lot within the realm of the body and pleasure and sexuality.

And Helping particularly women, but also men too, who grew up in purity culture, um, surrounded by a lot of power and control dynamics and abuse structures. So that's a lot of my work. I work a lot with the body and. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The Catholics have the kinkiest of sex, you know, Yeah, I actually grew up Catholic, which is okay.

Threw away from that for a few years. Or non denominational religion for a few years and then, um, came out of it, but yeah.

Nicole: Well, I'm excited to have you on the podcast today to talk about these topics. Yeah, I've realized that in the direction of the podcast, I haven't talked about You know, religious trauma in a handful of episodes.

It's been a long time, which I think is part of a reflection of my own healing, right, when I'm bringing people into the space where it's not like that sticking point anymore, where I'm like, oh, I want to talk about this. I'm more like, oh, let's talk about the pleasure and the play and the get out of getting out of this experience.

But, um, having you here, given this is what you like specifically work in. I still think there's a lot of benefit to kind of like slowing down and talking about your story and your work. And I'd love to hear more of that. Cause I know that it's such an important piece for so many people that are still processing and deconstructing this.

I still meet people who are coming out of religion like now, you know, and I'm like, Oh, Oh,

Kelly Pastori: you know what? I also find so interesting. Oftentimes people coming out of religion and religious context will sometimes pre healed, you know, we'll move towards other groups or other dynamics that actually show very, very similar dynamics as the church.

So yeah, I was actually just watching a documentary last night at South by Southwest that was about a Kundalini yoga group. That was very, it was really wild around the grooming. Every, it was very, very similar to Church, um, abuse dynamics and it, it just is everywhere. If you are going up in it, you're going to find somewhere else to something that feels familiar.

And that's why it's so dangerous. I think sometimes too. Which I specifically, given my area of study, think about just like the relational dynamics, even around, you know, feminism, you know, like just, yeah. Yeah, there's the extremism, right? I mean, it's just, it's really easy to find it in different worlds. I mean, it's activism scene.

It's, it's, yeah, it's in a lot of different worlds. Um, I can make two sides of the same coin, which is kind of scary. Totally.

Nicole: Yeah, I was climbing yesterday. Um, I always climb on Sundays and it was, you know, Cute. We've joked about like in the community, just like, Oh, this is our church. Like, this is where we come together.

You know, like we're going to bring the doughnuts, you know, we're going to do the thing. Um, and it was funny. We were just, there's someone that I like barely know. And we were just joking about that. I was like, yeah, you're in the church, you know? And then you start dating. She had talked about how she started dating someone and that's what pulled her into the more like fundamental.

And I said, Oh yeah, me too. You know, and then they start saying, you're going to have to stay at home with the babies. And she said, Oh yeah. And then we start fighting and I said, yes, we do, you know, and, and just even someone that I barely know, we start going into the details of like the patriarchal nature of these relationships and like the gender roles being very specific of who stays home.

I'm like, I can only imagine how many more people have that similar story and are still in that story of just power dynamics and the relationships that are really reinforced through quote unquote. Biblical messaging.

Kelly Pastori: Yeah. And a lot of it being just a route to really disconnect us from our bodies, right?

And, and desires and authentic, authentic, authentic, um, experiences of who we are and what our expressions in the world are meant to be, right? Like, it's, it's a lot of what purity culture does demand is that You disconnect from what is happening internally. Yeah. So that makes sense. Yeah. Cause the body is flesh.

We don't want to listen to the body. The body is flesh. That is naughty. Yeah. I think it's interesting. Cause I think this even relates to. Medical dynamics also going into different, um, doctor. If patriarchy has really seeped into the medical system in a lot of ways of our bodies being women's bodies, not even being talked about really pleasure wise.

And the concept of autoimmune illnesses, all these things is that your body's actually attacking you, but really it's your body protecting you. You know, it's like the reframing of all these things is just. Our body is out to get us, we can't trust it, it's not safe, it's things. And I just, I think it's so rooted in so much of what we were taught in what the body is.

It's something to be afraid of. And I think that also plays into sexuality. Sure. Yeah. I was already just thinking about the teachings of like, you can't be alone in a room with That's what I was always taught. You can't, we are alone in a room with a male because you will tempt them so much and you will succumb to the desires of your body as if we have no control.

Right. It's just fascinating. Well, then you being the gatekeeper of a man's body, right? I mean, it's not even like. You don't have, you have all the control, so you better steward that, you know? Yeah. And then things like sexual anorexia and then sexual avoidance and all these different things that show up later on, you know, I've worked with a lot of clients who have really had a really hard time with their own exploration of desire.

And it's been so painful. Um, so it's, it's so traumatizing, you know, it's, I just, I just, I I'm glad we're talking about it because it can be a lot of people don't like talking about it.

Nicole: Yeah. Fair. Right. And I think it needs to be talked about, like you said, because it is dramatizing. And I remember like my first year assignment in grad school, I had to write a topic and I decided to explore like religious trauma and purity culture and all of this.

And there was just not enough on the topic. I struggled to find books that talked about like the actual trauma of this. Right. Which is why. I enjoyed so much of the conversation I had with Dr. Rachel Smith, right? I'm just like, wow, this is grooming. Like this created the situations where, you know, and, and just that narrative being so missing.

And so I think that I've, I've gotten so much feedback about how validating it is for people to have heard these episodes and to like, feel seen in the pain that they've experienced, um, which, you know, other people see as like religion and, and spirituality as a healing thing. But like, it, it can also be.

deeply traumatizing for many of us. And that's just not a narrative that has enough space. Right.

Kelly Pastori: Yeah. I think you're so right on to that. The power and control dynamics are really, really scary. Um, I actually went to a grad school that shockingly talked a good bit about spiritual abuse and trauma. And so we did work a lot on stories of abuse and sexual abuse within the church.

The person who ran my school, Dr. Dan Allender was really, He's really immersed in childhood sexual trauma. Um, and oftentimes that's coming from religious contexts and different, um, churches. And so it's the grooming is really so, so evident in churches, um, and what people have gone through. Even now I have clients who are, you know, at Christian colleges and aren't afraid of their own experience and, um, Yeah, it's wild how it's still, it's kind of changing faced is what I'm realizing.

Purity culture is still here. It's just, it's turning into like narratives around sex positivity, um, in marriage. And it's just, it's, it's changing and it's still here. Um, very alive and very active. So it's just, yeah. Complicated. Absolutely. morphing. Yeah. To fit more of the cultural, I'm sure it will continue to morph right over the years beyond our lifetimE.

Nicole: Right. I just, um, Yeah, even for me, someone who's like processed so much of this and works around this stuff, I, I just always, you know, I don't want to put myself through a pathological lens of still suffering, but I'm always still curious. Like when I'm falling in love with men. How much do I idolize them?

How much do I put them on the pedestal? Because when I was younger, I was taught they're actually closer to God. And we listened to their divine authority. And I specifically remember experiences where I had desires, feelings, thoughts about specific dynamics of relationships. And I would like literally sit at the feet of the man and say, well, what did God say to you?

And so as I'm here now, years out, I'm still just wondering, like, yeah. Damn, like, how unconscious is that? Like, how much is that impacting my relationships now, where I'm maybe just, like, idolizing the man as, like, the thing, and then listening to him. Whoa, you know, and I have to really, like, take a critical lens to that at times, and be like, where?

Is that still here? Shit, you know? Hey, all right.

Kelly Pastori: I feel the same way, man. Yeah, it's complicated, right? But I do think it's actually even less brain, right? Like, I actually think it's more your nervous system responding. You know, I think it's like our bodies actually responding to whatever arousal structures or whatever.

Yeah. What we were told to be attracted to societal norms, all the things, right? Um, which is why I think so much of this healing work is actually in the nervous system and not necessarily just regulating the nervous system per se, because I think that's a big conversation right now in the world of somatics, but I think it's more so learning what your body's trying to protect you from.

Um, and maybe it needs to do a million jumping jack, a million, a hundred jumping jacks rather than. Meditation, you know, so trying to figure out what our body is trying to tell us is so important in this work, you know, yeah, right.

Nicole: And just to feel in general. I don't know if I was really feeling when I was a Christian.

Kelly Pastori: Oh, I mean, I think that's actually a really great place to be right? Like, yeah, because you're I don't know about you, but I was coming. I was in a pretty deep conservative Presbyterian background for a few years. I didn't I did not really grow up with religion. But, um, I mean, I grew up Catholic. My parents were kind of like, either you go visit your great grandmother at the nursing home, or we go to mass.

Um, so it's like more of a you know, Thing that we did rather than, I don't know, I wasn't connected at all. And then some Presbyterian friends found me, um, and that was actually really, it's not all bad in some ways, right? It was really helpful socially and other ways. It was really painful. Cause it actually just connected me to the feelings of self hatred.

I think I already had, I think it kind of being a reformed Christian. There was really easy to just say how much I also hate it. I could, I could join in on the hatred of myself because our bodies are. Bad. Our minds are bad. Change my thoughts. Like I need to change my thoughts. They're so bad. And so it was very easy to just go into that self contempt narrative.

And so, I don't know, I think there's something to that of. You have to make everything logic. Um, I think that actually moves us kind of into an interesting direction around white supremacy, too. And like, these 1 off groups, right? In America that are really, this could go a whole different direction, but I just think it's a quick pipeline to like, uh.

White supremacy. Um, right.

Nicole: Yeah. I talked a little bit to you earlier about how part of my family is Mormon and the Mormon culture has like a lineage to and I mean, of interpreting the Bible as saying that people of color are sinful and that's how they got that right that that's like a whole fucking narrative that they have.

What? So, like, that's, yeah, that's a connection for part of this, right? That there are absolutely groups that believe that.

Kelly Pastori: Yep.

Nicole: Um, crazy, crazy shit. Um, but yeah, just thinking about the narratives of self contempt.

Kelly Pastori: Yeah. So And feelings and how you're talking about feelings are bad. Typically. Yeah. In culture dynamics.

Yeah. What is there is a there's like a verse somewhere the heart is deceitful. I think that's what it is. Um, right. And that phrase, like, I mean, just thinking about that. How can we learn to trust ourselves if that is something that we're experiencing or feeling being told right.

Nicole: You can't, right? And it's just crazy, too, because the whole dynamic is like, you're so sinful, you're so messed up, you're so messed up, you can't do this on your own, that's why you need Jesus, right?

That math. And if any other person came to me and said, Nicole, you are so wrong, you are so fucked up, that's why you need to date me, because I'm going to make your life better, we'd say, Hey, that's like an abusive relationship. Like that person's really talking down to you and making you feel bad about yourself and thinking that you need them to be okay.

I mean, the paradigm, when we take it out of this, like. It's like culturally, particularly in America accepted narrative and we look at it for like a relational dynamic. You say, Whoa, what the Like that's not okay. So it's just it's really mind boggling. I think but the problem is once you're you're in it, it's such a deep worldview.

It's your whole paradigm. It's your whole reality. I was again, I was climbing yesterday and one of my friends is getting married and they practice polyamory and so on their wedding website, they had talked about their love story and having a polyamorous family and. I guess their aunt had called in and said like, I don't know if I can go to the wedding.

Like, I need to pray about this. Like, I really don't feel comfortable with your lifestyle. Do you feel comfortable with us being there? Even though we don't like, believe in what you do and we condemn this, like, you know, it's just wild, you know, they're like, I'm going to really need to pray for you. Um, It's a whole world view.

Kelly Pastori: It really is. Yep. Yeah. I mean, I think about the clients I work with and a lot are going through those types of fam, it, it, it's really traumatizing to feel. So, um, like you're living in one direction that feels right in your heart and then everyone in your life. Um, using a doctrine against you. Yeah. Yeah.

It's super complicated.

Nicole: Um, which, yeah, which is where I think about the power of community, right? Like, that's what got us into these spaces is having community where they all look at you and, and really reinforce this narrative and say, this is what's happening. And then also. So the power of community to get you out.

Once you have other people who look at this and say, what are they saying? Right. And your, your mirrors start to change and it starts to shift everything. Um, but I appreciate what you said of like the, just the pain of the dichotomy of feeling your authenticity, feeling your pleasure, feeling your path unfolding in one way, and particularly if you, maybe your family dynamics, friends going in this opposite way and the tension of that, and.

So much of the different conversations I've had around religious trauma and these pain points are that Many of us were in the religion and felt such a disconnect. I can really resonate with that of like, okay, I'm here I'm trying to believe this but God it's so hard like it feels wrong God, you know and then like the like steps it took to actually start following my pleasure and getting out of that being so difficult at the beginning

Kelly Pastori: Yeah, definitely staying connected to people is I think one of the like what you're saying is the community aspect is so huge.

You know, you're talking about your friends that you climb with and it's your church and all these things and, you know, aspect is so beautiful and the heart of it, I think, is meant to be a lot of that. And then. It changes really quick. I mean, I don't know. I don't know many religious communities in general.

I mean, I'm even a big part of yoga communities and I feel it's very similar. I mean, there are just, it's very group think dynamics and collective experiences can get really complicated and then throw person personal religion into it. And it can get really, People become really fragile, you know, and so what we want actually at the heart of it, I think is to be connected.

And if we say no to something that the collective thinks is true, we're disconnecting. And that's a really stressful, painful experience, especially as a lot of us who were in this when we were young. Yeah. Being a part of a group is so, especially if we have family trauma, right? Like, especially if there's family trauma and we're to where we don't feel connected to our own families.

Then finding it outside can feel like almost euphoric in a way, you know, um, and like finally being accepted. And then you can't, there's not really any room to question what brings you all together, even if you don't feel like it's something that connects to you in general. I think it's so complicated, you know, yeah, it's true.

Nicole: It is just holding space for the weight of it all. Right. I, yeah. And I, I think it's always mind boggling to me to think about how like, oftentimes. The most abusive relationships people have are their family.

Kelly Pastori: And that's the. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's really interesting. I moved down to Austin about four years ago and Florida, so I'm from a more Southern expression of a community.

And so I moved to Seattle for grad school in my twenties and then I moved to Chicago for a few years and Mexico in between as well. Um, but I. Coming back down south has been a really interesting experience of being back in purity culture is a lot more systemic and I've been away from it for quite a while.

And it's. Been really interesting. We're integrating back to the culture here. Not even just not even religious circles, but it is so much more prevalent in every piece of culture here than I remembered or I'm used to. Yeah, even thinking about the laws that are being passed here and how the war really is at the heart of, you know, on women's bodies in a lot of ways and keeping women.

Right. Trapped and subservient. And yeah, I got to see that. I want to say she was the director of Planned Parenthood in Texas yesterday speak at a conference and she talked about how Texans go. We don't see things in a huge. In a, in a, we don't see progress in a really big way. It's like little by little progress because everything in the system here is against women in a lot of different directions.

So it just, it feels like that is so much part, a part of purity culture in a deep, deep way. So I don't know, I don't know how much longer I can live in Texas, but I feel like it's, it's so wild because it is so much more culturally relevant here. Yeah, yeah, and painful for people to leave. My clients in Texas feel a little different than my clients in Chicago, right?

Like, it's just a different experience. There's less safe spaces for people to explore. And there's, I mean, not as not less, you find them when you, when you need them, but it's just, you know, Yeah, it's, it's hard. It's really hard for a lot of people. Yeah, totally.

Nicole: Totally. I hear you on that. How long can I live in Texas, right?

Um, when I go to Utah, right, I visit family out there and I can feel the culture. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you can feel it. I can feel the stiffness in the bodies. I can feel the restriction and how people dress, right? If I'm even just like out, you know, it's it. This is a part of the purity culture conversation. But if I'm walking down the street in traditional queer aesthetics, you know, I got my docs, a beanie, you know, whatever you get looked at, right?

If I was holding the hand of one of my like, female partners, I'm going to get it. Looked at if I'm kissing like,

Kelly Pastori: Oh yeah,

Nicole: it's not safe. Right. Let alone that, like when you're walking around, maybe you see that billboard that's like abortion will send you to hell, right? And you're just like driving down the highway, like, Oh, okay.

Okay. Okay. You know, like there are just so many little tiny messages that are so prevalent in those cultures that it is absolutely, in my opinion, hard to. live in that compared to in Chicago where I don't see that on the streets, right? And it's much more, I can walk through boy's town and be gay and flamboyant and like, feel like I'm just your average queer, you know, walking down the street.

And I don't even think about it in ways that the second I go to like, yeah, Utah and I feel that you're, you're even just literally anywhere outside of Chicago, like anywhere, literally outside of it. Cause Illinois is super conservative. Once you get out of this bubble. Uh, yeah. You feel that. I feel the stares.

I feel the condemnation when I get looked at. It's not safe.

Kelly Pastori: All right. I mean, yeah, it's wild. It's why I think you said something so important around your body feels it that fear, right? That's a nervous system response. And that over time creates so much disease in the body. Um, and so we wonder why women struggle with more chronic illness.

I think it's like 70 percent more than men's bodies in America. And so I just, I think there's something really interesting to that of how the societal pressures and the societal roles that women have to deal with, um, and which all kind of stem from puritanical dirty culture in a lot of ways, even went to the gynecologist a few weeks ago.

And I, I don't love being on birth control at all. It's just. And she was like, I really, I really recommend you get an IUD. Like you live in this state, you need, you know, and it just, even the conversation around birth control here is so different. I'm a white body too. And so I can, I have more privilege than most people here.

Um, this is a minority led state. And so it just is, there's so much happening in that realm that is direct result of what we're even talking about, you know, um, it's wild how it's just in politics here. Yeah, really?

Nicole: And if they give you an I.U.D. I hope they do give you some medication for that. That's a whole other thing where you don't get any pain medication because you're supposed to just be chill and or my experience with three perforating my uterus.

Woo. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. Until someone finally said they did an ultrasound, they're like, your uterus just isn't shaped well for this. It seems like you've found that out. And I was like, yeah, IUDs later because the hormonal stuff didn't work for me. So then I, you know, I tried to do the copper IUD in it and you know, just even talking about that, the amount of times where I felt like I had, um, I've talked about this on the podcast of like, oh, like.

It felt painful. Like something was wrong, something was wrong. And, um, they're like, no, that's normal. Like, that's pretty normal. No one ever checked it. And then I later got a scan like literally years later. So like, just imagine all the sex that I was having with like a literal perforated IUD going, this feels weird and wrong, but they said it's normal.

You know? Right.

Kelly Pastori: The disconnect to find out your body, right? Yeah. Like you're being told something is normal, but you knew internally something was off. Right? So like that. I think that is just so much of what we're talking about of like that disconnect of. You were used to, I mean, in the church, you were told that what someone knew more than your body, right?

Or more than you about your body.

Nicole: Yeah.

Kelly Pastori: So you were used to taking orders from someone who was in charge and in power, who was supposed to know more than you, you know, um, which I think also happened. I mean, well, if we're going to get, I think about therapy and I think so many clients I've, I've, I've seen have had these horror story experiences with therapists and it's like power dynamics.

It can be anywhere. It can be everywhere. Um, Yeah. And so, yeah, it just makes me think of the doctor's worlds. And I, yeah, I ended up, I had really bad Lyme disease when I wasn't 23, right after college. Um, I think was actually a manifestation of a lot of trauma, emotional trauma in my life, but, um, it was, it was two years misdiagnosed for, um, Forever.

And it just, it was really confusing because I actually think that I was looking at doctors as gods in a lot of ways to try and help my body. And I, and really what ended up working the best was me understanding what was going on and how I felt in my body more than what was being To me to do so.

Nicole: Absolutely such an important conversation. Yeah, totally. My, uh, mentor, Dr. Dubose always talks about it of as the therapist living on quote, unquote, Mount Olympus, you know, like having all the answers. And so that's immediately what I think of is that power dynamic. And you're right. It directly transfers over.

And for me, this is, you know, I know we're talking about earlier before we started recording about the implications of our clients hearing this and stuff. And I think that's where I like to be full bodied and messy on here. I say dumb shit all the time, you know, like I am just a human. Oh my God, I'm wrong.

I, and even when I start off my like first intake sessions with clients, I'm like, I hope you can tell me that you disagree. I hope you can tell me that that was wrong. I upset you like anything to kind of try and normalize that. Cause it is such a power dynamic that, um, can create a lot of the same problems.

So I think if you're working with clients who specifically come from purity culture, if you're working specifically with women or fem clients, because of, even if you didn't go to purity culture and religion, you were specifically in America, grew up in a. Patriarchal context where puritanical beliefs colonized this land, right?

And so like, we are all implicated in that and that is all deep in our psyches. And so I think that's something to specifically think about when you're starting dynamics with clients. Right.

Kelly Pastori: Yep. Yeah, definitely. Because I mean, again, safety is found in our bodies first, and we often don't know what that feels like.

Instead of looking at our bodies as being something being wrong. I mean, fear showing up. It's actually like your body protecting you, you know, we're trying to be like changing the narrative on what our bodies are trying to say. It's not all bad. Fear is not always a bad thing. Anger is not a bad thing.

These are all things that are so important that it's trying to invite us to know it more.

Nicole: Yeah.

Kelly Pastori: And to, to show us something might be off, right? Yeah. Three IUDs later, I'm sure your body is okay. You know, like doctors like, you know, that is, uh, I hate that experience for you, but thank you.

Nicole: Yeah.

Kelly Pastori: Yeah. Because I have one for the first time and I'm like, wow, this is

Nicole: some people have great experiences.

So maybe it's just my uterus. So don't, don't listen, but my advice is if it does hurt, get a scan, don't listen to that bullshit and check and make sure it's in the right spot. That's all I'm going to say, right? Because I do know people who have had it and it works great. It's lovely and amazing, but it is just certainly not for everybody.

Kelly Pastori: And Hey, so what do you use that now? I'm curious.

Nicole: Condoms.

Kelly Pastori: Yeah.

Nicole: Yeah. Which I had to get over the, like, the, like, for me, like, I don't actually notice any difference. It's more of like the existential narrative of knowing that, like, it's there. And I love the, like, raw, raw body. Um, experience, but like, no, I mean, I, I have sex with condoms and I don't notice and I have the best orgasms when I'm not worried about getting pregnant.

You know, I'm like, yeah, this is so good. So liberating. Although I did just see some research about this. Um, it's not available yet, but some research going on about this, um, contraceptive called Adam, which is, uh, instead of, did you heard of us? Yeah. Um,

Kelly Pastori: I'm Yeah,

Nicole: it's like instead of the vasectomy and cutting the tubes, they go in and put a gel that blocks the tubes from releasing the sperm in the ejaculate.

So, and then if you want to get it reversed, you can insert another, um, sort of solution that dissolves the gel. So it's really, yeah, I know. So I'm like, God, how many years did it take for science to get even here? You know, it took a lot. Way too long. We spent way too many years working on the hormones and the things compared to a simple procedure of gel.

Damn. I mean, it's not even available yet, but I'm excited for future generations who will have that and could not go on hormones, could not do the IUD and all this other stuff. It was something that simple for like, uh, the penis and just like, damn, whole new, whole new world.

Kelly Pastori: Yeah, you know, actually I was on it.

I was listening. I went to this conference panel situation yesterday and there was a few, there were a few doctors being interviewed and a couple of urologists and they, this panel was about women's pleasure actually. So it was really interesting. And they were talking about how they're used to working with men in the urology department.

And. Uh, they would ask them like, okay, what do you want? Like, what do you, what do you want help with? What do you want? What do you want done? And they always would know exactly what to say. Nine out of 10 of the time, I mean, nine, 10 times. And then would always people who. Experience the world as men would always know with penises what they want.

And, um, as soon as they started working with women, they started realizing, I don't know how to help you. Like, I've never taught how to help you as a woman, how to have sex where it doesn't hurt. Or I have not, I haven't known how I wasn't taught this in school. I was taught to like tree ed, but I wasn't taught how to work with a woman's body.

And so this conversation was so fascinating because These doctors would say that they would ask the women what they wanted and very few women knew how to say what they wanted when they would come into the doctor's office. And so kind of the conversation around advocating for your own experience of what you want.

And again, that's. Work that people have to do therapeutically or emotionally in order to get past talking about sex in the therapy room or the doctor's office or whatever it is, but it was just such a, I mean, it's a fascinating conversation listening to yesterday and coming into this conversation with you today around that world and the medical system just as big or patriarchal and, um,

Nicole: Yeah, I think about like the orgasm gap, right, where lesbian couples have way more orgasms than heterosexual couples.

Woo! What does that say, you know? Um, to like really dismantle that narrative of the, like, female orgasm being so elusive. No! It's just the way you're having sex, my friends, right? And the paradigms and the expectations. And when I go back to thinking about, yeah, like purity culture, right. I was surrounded by people who, yeah, again, disconnect to the body.

You feel that desire. It's sinful. It's fleshy. Do not experience that. God forbid you masturbate you whore. Right? Like, Um, so much, so much to play with and kink, but with my friends at the time, you know, like they ended up all getting married to pastors, right. And reinforce this narrative of like, yeah, you give to your husband.

Your body is something you literally give. How fucking terrifying. Not. Oh, wow. We're co creating this pleasure together. And then even outside of purity culture, like every single scene we see in media is the male in these heteronormative examples leading, right? The male leads, the male pursues, the male do this, does this.

And so then as the female bodied person, like I'm receiving, I allow them to do, I allow them to do blah, you know, it's never this like. Empowering. We don't see that dominatrix on the scene that leads. Right. And so for me, it is absolutely been a wild journey to like change my friend groups to get to spaces where I'm in such a sex positive community that we're sitting at brunch going, what are your fantasies?

What are your fantasies? Oh, how can we work together to make that happen? And then for me even to have this experience where, um, to celebrate like matching for internship, I, um. I got some of my, um, women and female friends together, or my women and femme friends together to have a scene at a dungeon, right?

And this scene was literally me and all of them. No boys, no penises, none of that, right? And when I was laying on that table in the dungeon, I kid you not, the feelings that were going through my body of like, God, I feel like I'm at a spa. Like I am just relaxing. I'm literally doing nothing. I mean, I'm like, I'm just purely experiencing.

I'm purely experiencing. I let go to say like, these people got me. I can just let go. And I just felt like I was drunk at a spa being completely sober. Right. But like, I was Just what a journey to get from a space where like I literally submitted to men to having this like completely all femme women experience where like we're just in our power and our fantasies and now we're looking at what do you want to do right like the men aren't even in the picture you know I still date men too but like it just didn't to have this freedom is so empowering.

Kelly Pastori: I think there's something to that. I love that. Thank you for sharing that because that's such a I love that. It sparks my memory to think about like how I've moved through my own body through some of this stuff too is when I was in grad school. I had such a difficult experience with my body. I mean, I was not growing up, which also is very much disconnecting you from your own body.

You know, all those worlds just kind of go hand in hand. I'm tall. I'm like five, 10, five, nine, and have always been somewhat of a bigger body. And so there was always a lot of complicated dynamics of being in my body from feeling not desirable. And then feeling like, how does my power show up in my body?

But a big part of my story was move. It was going into naked spas in Seattle and, or Russian run naked spas. And that was a huge part of me recognizing my body and being safe in my body in a space where You're seeing people's bodies with mastectomies. You're seeing people's bodies with, um, surgeries all over their bodies, tattoos, all the things, you know, um, I remember being the youngest one, probably a couple of my friends and I would always, whenever those body dysmorphic or just having bad body days would go, would we be like, okay, we need an Olympus day, you know, like having to go and experience your body in a safe way.

It just changes things. It changes your ability to be alone in a room with another body that's naked. Um, that's a nervous system regulator in some ways, you know, you have to move through a lot of discomfort in order to be in a space like that. So I do, I love that experience of the dungeon because it's very similar in some ways around your body feeling safe in a place that's technically dangerous.

Like, am I allowed to feel safe in my naked body? You know, um, that's kind of what started me working with. Creating a boudoir business like a photographer to help people get comfortable in their bodies. Um, I haven't done it in quite a few years, but for a few years, I really dove into it. And I, it was amazing to be able to be a therapist and work in that realm also creatively and help people be in their bodies.

And by the beginning of the session, it was so different by the end of the session, you know, body in a room, you know, um, so I don't know. I just think. Our bodies carry so much story and it's learning how to be safe with other bodies is such an important piece, especially when you've been harmed by other bodies and religious vulnerable context, right?

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. So much. I want to respond to there. Cause yeah, I have been harmed by male bodies. So the idea of having that sort of scene with multiple male bodies, we're working on that one, right. We're working on that one. Um, but yeah, just the culture of. of having the space where you can see other bodies.

Like there's King's Spa out in Chicago suburbs. I went with my friends. Yeah, totally. Um, and it was, yeah, it's such an experience to have it normalized. Oh, look at all these bodies. Wow. Okay. My cellulite, this thing over here, this roll over here, like that's super normal. Great. Right. And like the empowerment that comes with that.

And again, I think about the puritanical nature of space. Specifically American culture, because in other countries around the world, there are nude beaches, right? And so you could have that sort of experience growing up where you see all the beauty of different bodies and sizes and shapes and experiences, um, that tell our history, right?

Our lines, the scars, all of that, that we really don't get in America. Cause. You're indecent, right? You're indecent. Cover yourself up, right? I remember specifically the pictures of the, um, female women that were literally getting arrested on the beaches of Chicago for wearing a bikini, right? Just like, I don't know how many years ago.

That was less than a hundred years ago in Chicago, right? And around, you know, American culture, right? Just so much of that is completely right here. Yeah. When I think back to my own journey of empowerment through this, like, uh, boudoir was definitely a part of it. I remember I did that from my boyfriend at the time.

It was like, I'm going to do this for my boyfriend, of course, rather than my self, damn it. But at the time that was the touch in. Right.

Kelly Pastori: Exactly. Whatever gets you there, you know?

Nicole: Totally. So that was super empowering and to have that and um, I actually did burlesque. That was really empowering too, which was funny because I had won it from the uh, volunteering as a sexual assault counselor.

They had like a raffle of all these different prizes cause I would have never, like I always wanted to do burlesque, but I would have never taken the leap, you know? And so to win it in a raffle, I was like, damn, I gotta go now, you know? But both of those things being huge moments. You're right when I think back to it of, of being in a space with someone where I could have my body and be pure, right.

And have these like naked photos and to like strip on stage and like have that empowerment of knowing other people are watching me and playing with that. Those are definitely huge parts of the journey to get to like have a dungeon scene where I feel super comfortable with a bunch of people watching, right.

Kelly Pastori: I want to be seen, right, like to be seen in your expression, like is just a really powerful thing.

Um, yeah, uh, and really, I think creates new. It's the beauty of neuroplasticity, right? Like our brains new experiences and then kind of can expand rather than feel like they're contracting and trying to stay small.

Like, it's like, oh, no, no, no, I can actually. Like, what happens if I show, bring my chest forward or what happens if I can stand up straight or, you know, like our buddies tell so much of a story. So I love, that's very cool that you've moved into those directions.

Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Better orgasms. That's what happens when you can stand up straight and open up that chest, right?

Kelly Pastori: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Because there's a sense that you deserve pleasure, right? There's a, it's like a, it is a sense of you being in your body. That's great. From a place of worth of like, Oh, I think that I'm allowed to experience this. And I think I'm actually meant to, my body is built for pleasure, you know, rather than it being built for fear or contraction or whatever it is.

Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole: I still I'm unpacking like constantly the dynamics of giving and receiving, right. Of like, To receive that scene where I didn't, you know, what I was giving back was my pleasure and them getting to be with me in that space. Right. But I didn't like, give back. Some sort of reciprocity that I, I still struggle with in a lot of relationships of like, Oh, if someone does this to me, I need to give back.

And like, they go down on me. I must go down on that, right? Like this sort of math that I think do specifically, it stems back to me originally from that dynamic of purity culture of you're giving your body to your husband, right? If they do this, you must do that. So I had recorded an episode with Betty Martin and the wheel of consent, and it still continues to sit with me and like.

In my perspective, I am not free in this body until I can receive, until I can receive sexual pleasure and not feel obligated to give back. I'm not free.

Kelly Pastori: Yeah. Wow. Beautiful. Yeah. It's so true. And man, I've worked with like 50 year old clients who still have a really hard time receiving, right? Yeah. Um. Yeah.

Thank you. And I do too. I mean, I'm on my own journey as well in that, but it's really like, I think it's a jerk. I think being in a female body in this country specifically, that will always be part of the conversation, you know, if, if you date men, um, because if this has not just hurt women's experience of sexuality, it's also hurt men's.

And a lot of us are kind of just wobbling through it like baby giraffes, you know, where you're like, Oh my God, I'm falling on these tall legs. And I don't know how to use them sometimes. Cause there's so much language now around sexuality and all the things, but yeah, I think sometimes we can overcorrect so much that it kind of can feel again, logic on the other end of, instead of experiencing just presence and pleasure, I feel like I've been trying to, um, but then in this like.

Journey of trying to just experience pleasure in the slow moments.

Nicole: Yeah.

Kelly Pastori: Can I just like wash this dish and like, and can that be erotic, you know, feel really good. Because I think slowing down is a huge piece of my experience. My mind moves very fast and thanks to mama or whatever, you know, therapist. So being in my body is like a very important part of slowing down and feeling experiencing pleasure in the bedroom, but also in my day to day, you know, really just down.

Instead of having to mobilize and I think what you're saying is around the give and take of pleasure is it's a need to mobilize almost, you know, of like, oh, I need to get out of this feeling because it's really hard to stay in the moment of experiencing someone seeing me in pleasure. I mean, that's an extremely vulnerable.

We talk about trauma is vulnerable, but I actually think being seen in pleasure. Really vulnerable.

Nicole: Yes. I love looking into the eyes of a lover, like purely deadlocking eyes as I come so hard. I feel like that's so vulnerable. It's so raw. Like, right. Just like you are seeing my raw face and expression and all that.

And like this, ah, so powerful. It was radical to me to like talk to some of my friends who are like, I've never had my eyes open when I come. And I'm like, what's like, I get it. You know, I get that, but like, damn, like so powerful. Um, but yeah, I appreciate what you said of like, of can I. wash this dish and find the eroticism of it.

That's why I really like that word erotic, right? Like we're trying to get out, cause I know like earlier I was like, yeah, when you have your chest open, there's more orgasms, but it doesn't have to be orgasm focused. The more that you get out of that, the more you typically have, right? Cause you're, you're, you're in your body, you're experiencing all the different levels of pleasure that can come from just purely washing a dish from taking the sip of tea.

Like the more that you can connect to that experience. The more erotic you're going to feel in your life generally, because you're just really slowing down to connect to your pleasure. And I think that's like step one. And even with Betty Martin, the wheel of consent, I was thinking about, um, she talks about like giving touch for the other person versus like taking touch.

And that sat with me so much of like how often when I am like, Let's take it outside of, like, sex, right? Say I'm just giving a back scratch. Where's my brain at? And as I'm scratching the nails on their back, am I thinking, Ooh, I hope this feels good for them. I'm scratching here. I hope that feels good. I hope that feels good.

Versus, Ooh, their skin feels nice on my skin. My nails are feeling good as I'm going down there. Like your mindset, where are you focused at? Cause those are two different experiences just in a backscratch, let alone when you're actually in the fluid dynamics of play and eroticism.

Kelly Pastori: Yeah, I love that. The sense of mutuality, right?

Rather than it being a give and take or this is your moment and this is my moment or this is, you know, it's, it's so much less separate moments than experiencing pleasure in both moments. You know, I love that distinction.

Nicole: Hmm.

Kelly Pastori: Yeah, I really love that.

Nicole: And I think for me, a lot of my like, uh, first beginnings into queer sex were what helped me so much was like, um, I just remember having sex with people who would use strap ons, and it being such an experience to be like, Oh, I'm not gonna let this strap on penis cause me pain, because the point of this experience is literally for, like, we're both experiencing it, right?

But the strap on is to give me pleasure, it's part of the experience, right? But like, there was some sort of dynamic going on in my head around, Penises where I would be like, Oh, I'm in pain, but it's giving them pleasure. It's giving the penis pleasure. Like, oh, okay. Like, let me just set aside my pain here to getting into queer experiences of having that dildo and them being like, I'm not, I'm not experiencing pleasure.

What is the point of this? And it just like radically changed everything of how I looked at it. And I would almost want to gift that experience to so many people to literally have penetration that's not connected to someone so that they could like literally get out of the space of giving, of giving, giving, giving, especially in pain.

Kelly Pastori: Yeah, that makes so much sense. What a good distinction. Yeah. And, and, you know, it just makes me think about like, I know this is kind of basic, but the idea that like so many people still struggle with the idea that sex ends with like ejaculation, right? I get caught in that oftentimes too of remembering that like, Whoa, wait, no, this is such a mutual experience that it doesn't, this is like not the ending moment.

Like we don't have, we're just so obsessed with needing something to be over. Sometimes I can find myself in more protective states when I'm feeling like that. Looking towards the ending for someone else to just end it for me, or, and it's like this very interesting experience where I think it just lives in my body sometimes still that that idea that someone else gets to determine the experience.

And I still think that is very purity culture oriented around the male experience.

Nicole: Right. Giving comes back to a paradigm where you remain pure so that you can give your sexuality to your husband.

Kelly Pastori: Right. Right. And even, I think there's so much, you know, I don't know if you, in Austin, there's a very large wellness community here.

And a lot of people are like the, I think it can be helpful sometimes like talking about masculine and feminine, feminine dynamics, but like this culture. Of wellness and is obsessed with this right now that it feels like it's, it's actually showing up as purity culture. I see so much of purity culture within this, like, wellness,

Nicole: the divine, the divine masculine and the divine feminine.

Kelly Pastori: Yeah, like, um, that's what it's being rebranded as. Yeah, there is in a lot of ways. Um, cause I, I of course believe in these things. I mean, Of course we have divinity within us and, you know, but like the, the play of it all. I mean, I guess we want to make sure it's all play, of course, but it feels like there's more rigidity in what people are trying to define as what is sexuality and the giving and taking just made me think of that though.

We're breaking it down to just like, to be so. Boring again, you know, um, right. Cause

Nicole: yeah, cause I mean, it comes back even, I think to that framework of like. Sex is penetration and ends with orgasm versus eroticism. And I'm feeling the eroticism of washing this dish, right? Like that, those are radically different paradigms.

And I think it does come back even right to a puritanical culture where sex is for procreation, right? Like sex for pleasure was not taught in the puritanical Bible, right? So we have this. Um, shameful, pudental nerve scientist, shame, uh, let's, let's, let's put the shameful sex in the private space where this is where you do that and it's for procreation, right?

So we have this expectation of sex being this like literal act for that versus, wow, like I'm connecting to my eroticism in so many different ways. There's ways to play with the body. Pleasure of my body that aren't even linked to penetration at all at all at all. I don't even need that right like It's just radical different paradigms of understanding where eroticism plays into your life versus like and for me It's like deeply connected to every day like the erotic is is here every single day And and for me, that is how I connect to the divinity, right?

Like oh What a powerful moment to be with a lover or lovers and looking into their eyes as they look into mine. And I'm literally experiencing the most orgasmic of pleasure that is possible in my body. I mean, the universe is so vast and large that if there is a God, I think they are happy that I'm in pleasure .

Kelly Pastori: I think so too. I think so too. And I think that's the, I mean, I think that's the other side of the coin of like pleasure was not something. That you're taught is a good thing, right? Coming to this other side of seeing divinity and pleasure. Totally. It's an amazing thing, you know? Well, right.

Nicole: Because the Puritans literally left to come to America because it was not strict enough. Like, they literally left going, We need more work, more hard work, less play, less pleasure, more hard work, in service of God. So, like, God damn it, America. You know, like, if we look back to those roots, like, Yes, of course pleasure isn't centered because literally our colonized bullshit over this land and all the death that we caused was literally in service of this god of hard work and less pleasure.

Kelly Pastori: Yep, yeah, I think, yes, definitely. The puritanical work dynamic, man. I mean, it's going against cap or trying. I feel like sometimes I'm trying to get all my clients to quit their corporate jobs because I'm like, yeah, you are not meant to work as hard as you do. Populistic culture, it just tells us that we are meant to work and work and work.

And I think that's so much of where eroticism gets stolen in our world, especially in female or in my body. If I. And when I find myself in tight places, or if I'm if my body starts feeling tight, I know I've been working too hard. Um, But there's been that capitalism has a hold on me, you know, it just starts kind of seeping into I'm not doing enough I'm in the scarcity mode rather than being I'm okay Like I actually can go for a slim this afternoon after work and right I can, I can take a day if I need it or, and I just think we're just so not attuned to that.

We're not attuning to our own bodies and we're attuning to things outside of us, you know. Totally.

Nicole: Yeah. I mean, the Sunday scaries, that felt sense, right? How are you supposed to have a good orgasm when you feel the Sunday scares? You know, how are you supposed to have that when all day long you've been, you know, staring at a computer screen, like running business for large capitalistic structures and your, your shoulders are up by your ears and you're exhausted when you get home, right?

Like that is not, and it's always wild to me to remember like the Haymarket riots and like, that people literally had to die for us to have a five day work week.

Kelly Pastori: Right. Right, right, right.

Nicole: What? You know, like, this system where we're at now, I hope, I don't know if it will happen in our lifetime, many people with enough privilege have this, right, of that four hour work week, blah, blah, blah, right?

But like, God, I just hope we do get to some sort of structure where people don't have to die to get us to less days a week. But like, I think people forget that this is constantly an evolving situation that we can all actively work towards changing literally because the people in the past had to do that literally for us to get here now.

And this is not over. Like, these systems are still actively pulling us away from deeper relationships and more pleasure. And so there's still activism working. In terms of changing these structures from even a five day a week, and for some people, that's lucky, right? Some people work multiple jobs, right?

So then it's just even worse.

Kelly Pastori: Yeah, systemic, you know, it's fully systemic and, and so complicated.

Nicole: Right, which, which is why I feel like it's ridiculous. We love Dr. Ruth. Like, she was a pioneer feminist of her time. But when she would say like, Oh, I talk about sex and I don't get into the politics. I'm like, You know, like pioneer for time, you know, but like, oof, like really missing a whole level of this conversation where you're like, you, I don't think you can talk about pleasure, orgasms and sexuality without talking about how, yeah, your 9 to 5 job, if you're lucky, is messing up with your ability to experience pleasure, right?

Kelly Pastori: Right, right, right. And that's a conversation. Some people are just aren't willing to have yet, you know, and we have to trust their own processes, you know, but I think, yeah, it's, it's been really, I'm just, I'm thinking about the purity culture recovery groups that Dr. Rachel Smith and I lead. And it's just really interesting because we do.

The first couple sessions with people, we do, we are kind of naming this, um, the systemic effects of what's happened within our, within our culture. And, um, some people tend to push back on that some, but people are always. People always recognize where they've been harmed and that sometimes it's a new realization for people.

And, um, It's fascinating, you know, to be in a group of people and to, to realize that it's touched everyone, capitalism, purity culture, all of it. Um, obviously those people are in that group because they are, they know that often, or maybe have an inkling of it. But. I just I feel so lucky that we get to work with those groups of microcosms of what what we're talking about in capitalism and purity culture and all these different things.

Sure. Sure. Yeah, and it's complicated too, right?

Nicole: Because depending on where you're at in the system, you. If the more privilege you have, the less you'll feel the pain of it, right? It affects all of us, but the less you'll feel and you'll be like, I don't know what's wrong. It's totally fine. I've, I've worked hard.

Air quotes. I've worked hard. You know, we all have worked hard, right? I love, I love the metaphor of the, um, the, uh, running the laps, right. Where it's like you did run the lap, but you started with a significantly head start. So yes, you ran the circle, but you started with a headstart. So yes, you worked hard, but this system's not fair.

Right. And depending on where you're at and that you'll. feel that way more than others. And then I do like the concepts of thinking about, um, Stockholm syndrome, right. And just how we get kind of normalized to this level of treatment going, this is normal today. They didn't hit me. They just, you know, added extra hours onto my work week and didn't pay me for that.

Like, that's fine. That's fine. You're like, Oh, that's not fine, actually, but we are so normalized that this is what everyone does that we don't really have any alternative to kind of like see, which is what happens in abusive dynamics, right? You don't have any other alternative.

Kelly Pastori: Right. So if you grew up with any kind of abuse or trauma in the home, you come to church and sometimes that normal, that can feel really normal to have someone in power who has done a few wrong things and, you know, Oh, but we believe in forgiveness.

And so we'll forgive them, you know? Yeah. It's just a hot bed for it in so many ways.

Nicole: It is getting better, I think. I think so too.

Kelly Pastori: I do. I really do too. Power of the internet. Yeah. Yeah. Which I think has been really helpful for a lot of people to have language for things and, you know, which can also be so complicated sometimes too. Yeah, there's a lot. I have kind of stumbled upon some purity culture or not pretty culture.

What's it called? Like religious influencers. Oh, yeah, but there's like another side of like a lot of purity culture people, but then there's a whole nother side to it. Yeah. People talking about why

Nicole: I won't even name them to give them airtime, but I've definitely watched down a handful, like a handful of like, um, Christian influencers and then like other therapists reacting to them.

Kelly Pastori: Oh yeah.

Nicole: On YouTube you can find a lot and then I can just go down rabbit holes of that. And then I just, they're, they're actively. So everything I'm talking about my world, right? Like this, this world of erotic play and it's so. Beautiful to be in a space where my community all, you know, for the most part, I have a lot of different friends from all different walks.

My family is certainly a very different walk, but my close, intimate circle is all of the same like value system, which is what freed me to be where I'm at now. Right? But. And then I get to the space where I'm like, well, why am I even still doing sex education? Like everything's kind of like, and then I'll watch one of those videos of like the Christian influencer and be like, Oh damn, I forgot.

Like, there's still so much going on. Right. And so like just the beauty of getting into your community and feeling that freedom, but then just remembering, wow, yeah, there's still actively so many people, but I do believe in the benefit of again, like, yeah. Um, I always bring up the stat of like Margaret Sanger being arrested in the 1920s for talking about contraception.

You and I would have went to jail for just talking about the IUD at the beginning of this conversation.

Kelly Pastori: Yeah, definitely. Things have changed so much. Yeah, I know. And, and so it will hopefully keep changing and keep getting, you know, we'll get more information and more knowledge and more conversation around this, but still it is so, it's so new.

I forget that sometimes I'm so lucky. I'm so glad that we're a part of this generation to where we are able to kind We are able to talk about this freely, you know, um, a lot of places still can't talk about it that much, you know, it's still do get punished with it, especially across the world in different ways, you know, this conversation wouldn't even exist, which is hard.

Um, I do feel lucky I feel lucky we're in this place.

Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. My, uh, dream is to ride that line straight down the middle between the Madonna and the whore and just rock the world with that one.

Kelly Pastori: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Women's pleasure. It is something that will, I just, I cannot believe how politicized it is now.

Um, I, I didn't realize that was what it was going to come up against living in places like Seattle and Chicago. It's just. a really different experience here. So it becomes a little more dangerous and I can feel myself wanting to shut her down a little bit with it. That's obviously the reason to kind of keep it open and to keep talking about it.

Nicole: Totally. Totally. Yeah. I hope you keep listening to that. Cause that's such an important piece too. I think about like of, yeah, that's one of my biggest things is like, you know, I'm not telling everybody. I mean, I am talking about it publicly on a podcast of like these experiences I have, but for. Deeply political reasons because I think that the more we have this conversation, the more we end rape culture, right?

That's another thing that coming back to purity culture when you don't talk about your experiences You don't know that this is like not okay that someone's doing that right and the more that I can talk about like Oh, I had this experience at the dungeon, right, and it was beautiful. I felt like I was at the spa.

I hope we can create more normalizing of that. So that way we get out of the silence of purity culture and have the space to also talk about our fantasies and our dreams, right? Not to just get out of the trauma, but to actually dream and get to that space. And so I think that these conversations are deeply political, but in moving through the world, you do have to be conscious of who you're talking to.

One, because you can't just drop that on everybody. Cause it's. Depending on where they're at, like, you know, my kinky sex positive friends, like, that's a normal Tuesday conversation to someone who's not in this world that is actively triggering and activating and they'll feel very uncomfortable. And so you kind of have to, like, be very conscious as you kind of move through this world with double think of, like.

Who are the people I can talk to about this? And so for, for me, when I am trying to make relationships and kind of gauging that I do check in with my body, because if I say, Oh, I had that scene. And then you looked at me and said, Oh, that sounds gross. How dare you? My next response would be to cave inward as a protective response, right?

I would. You know, bring my shoulders forward. Oh, oh, okay. Okay. Okay. So I think being able to tune into that body response of when do I feel like I'm caving inwards to protect myself and getting small versus the relationships that pull me out into my like big, like we were talking about earlier, like chest forward boldness, right?

That is something to think about. Extremely pay attention to so much.

Kelly Pastori: So, yeah. And I mean, I think, like, another layer of that is often with abuse, right? People see that light and, you know, and the dreams and the excitement and all these things. And that's where people become vulnerable to abuse. Oftentimes, right?

It's because people want abusers want that. They want that. They're jealous of that. They're they're wanting. What's the word to kind of like eat it up in a way. So oftentimes that place can feel so vulnerable to be so to be so open and to be so dreamy and to be so hopeful, right? Hope will kind of kill you sometimes people really will eat that alive if you're not with safe people.

So again, like what you're naming feels so important around knowing who you can talk to those things about or to it. who you can talk about these things with. Totally.

Nicole: And let's even be honest, like just the whole culture of women against women past me would have looked at me and been like, who the hell does she think she is?

I really hate her. Like, she thinks she's so liberal. Uh, you know, like from a place of jealousy and unprostitutes, that's been enlightening to like, Oh, when I get jealous of another woman or person in general, what does that say about me? What do I think is not possible in my own life? That is so activating for me because that is something that still comes up naturally, right?

Especially in non monogamy when you're in metamorphs fun, you know, so like to just watch that stuff. Like, when does that come up and where is that coming from? Because that is a hundred percent how I would have looked at myself at where I'm at now. I'd be like, who the hell does she think she is?

Kelly Pastori: I love that. I love that because it's such an invitation, you know, to be like, Oh yeah. That's some of my unprocessed stuff. Yeah, yeah, dating multiple people is, and being in relationships with multiple people and polyamory is. Very tough.

Nicole: Oh, it's a we didn't even touch on the psychedelics, but there's a psychedelics right there You want some ego death for you?

You'll have multiple times of looking in the mirror there

Kelly Pastori: Right, right

Nicole: Yeah,

Kelly Pastori: yeah

Nicole: Well, I want to hold some space too. I always check in with every guest just to take that collective deep breath together

And see if they're okay Is anything else that you want to say to the listeners? Otherwise, I want to close down with two questions for us.

Kelly Pastori: I don't think so. Yeah, good. I love that body check in.

Nicole: Good. Yeah. Okay. Well, then the first question I want to ask is, given that you did have such a journey coming out of purity and religious culture, I would love if you could take a moment to connect to your younger self.

And I'm curious what you would want to say to her.

Kelly Pastori: Hmm. What a lovely question. I think being able to tell her that she will be free, you know? Mm-hmm. She'll be free and it'll feel so, so good. You know, that she'll be okay. And I think there's a lot of fear of that for a long time of not being okay or something is wrong, or you know.

Mm-hmm. I feel like liberation is a really big piece of what I want her to know.

Nicole: Yeah. Powerful. Give me the chills. Yeah. And there'll be lots of tears in that liberation and lots of moments of confusion.

Kelly Pastori: Fuck, Yeah. I'm sorry. I don't know if I can say that, but yeah, it's really hard. Yeah. Yeah. But I do, I feel, man, yeah, uh, there will be much more space.

In the heart and mind than I ever thought possible. And that's really cool, you know, really painful, but the more that you can, I always love that concept of how deeply you can go with pain. You can actually go to with joy and love on the other side. So it's kind of, there's just more room for things for grief and pain, but there's also a lot more room for joy.

It's a goodness. So I'm a believer of that. Yeah. Yeah. I say that back in the day. I think I maybe would have said that, but I don't think I believed it. Now I'm at a place in my life where I believe it.

Nicole: Yeah. How are you going to see more light if you don't have the dark for the contrast, right? And I'm, I'm always saying on here, like, if you can't cry, I don't know how you expect to orgasm.

You know, like, I don't, I don't, I don't know. You probably can, but I'm just saying there's more depth there when you start having that. Sob, deep cry with your partner and also the deep, you know, joy. I mean, that is so connected. Absolutely. And as you were talking about the liberation, I just remember, um, episodes.

I remember immediately what comes to mind is my episode with Kathy and Jesse, who was a somatic teacher, elder, um, woman in her late years. I don't know what exactly, you know, but I just remember asking her, like, do you have any advice for someone who's younger? And she's like, no, Which is wise. I love that.

Like, I'm not going to give you any advice. But she said, uh, it gets better. The pleasure gets even better. And I just remembered hearing that of like, God, that even is a narrative we don't have a lot of, right? Like this, this expectation that your sex dies after your birthing years or whatever, compared to someone being much later into their life saying, Oh my God, the orgasms, the pleasure gets so much better.

better as you age, right? And so I'm really excited to like, live into that and be a part of, you know, the next generation who is really embodying that.

Kelly Pastori: Um, yes, yeah, we didn't even touch on that ageism, but being a woman, being a woman in an aging body is very different.

Nicole: Totally. Totally. I'm starting to think I have wrinkles and I'm like, damn, those Botox fucking commercials.

Kelly Pastori: I know. Why do they keep doing that?

Nicole: Damn it. I got into an age group and they're like, here we go. Time to push that. And like, how are you supposed to have a good orgasm when you feel like that? Oh, it's so bad. It's we could, we could run down a whole nother rabbit hole of all of that. The, like the, uh, the feminine wash for the odors down there.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Kelly Pastori: So from your own body, you know,

Nicole: Totally. Well, the last question that I ask everyone on the show is. What is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

Kelly Pastori: Oh, I love that question. What I wish people thought was more normal, I, something just comes to mind around like bodies.

Like their, their flesh is normal. Their roles are normal. This colorations are not, you know, like their bodies. I think that's really what it comes down to for me is that. I've spent so much time in my life thinking my body was not normal. And yeah, I had a boyfriend tell me my body is not the typical female body.

That was something really work on for a lot of years. There's not a typical, you know, there's not a typical body that was really something to work from for me. And so I think I think about that a lot and I can encounter that a lot in my practice with people thinking their bodies are not normal and there's no normal.

You know, we get to be who we are.

Nicole: Yeah, which I'm so sorry for that comment because you know how many years that sat there.

Kelly Pastori: Yeah, it did, but it's not there anymore. You know, it, well, it is, I guess, but we're integrating it now. Yeah, it's an integration, but I just, I don't know. I think that it's so, I see it all the time.

I think about it often because of how much comes up in my practice, you know, right, right.

Nicole: And it's absurd. Like we can look out at a tree and we look at the leaf and we don't go. This is the leaf and the epitome of the leaf and the only leaf that is good, right? You can look and see all the leaves have these different like colors and shapes and lines.

And so we like understand that in nature, but forget the ways that we are nature, right? And have this beautiful smattering of different things. And so like, yeah. Yeah. If you're in America, finding the beauty of a spa where you can go and, you know, like a Korean spot and go and see other bodies. Right. Just to be able to have that sort of normalization, um, is so powerful.

And, or if you can find a dungeon space to see other bodies in movement in play so that you can hear that person queef on the table and be like, Oh, like that's normal. I don't have to shudder. Or have a fart on the table, right? A whole other thing. You don't have to shudder and feel like your whole world has just collapsed.

And you are no longer attractive because your body is doing natural body things. Oh, but you know how deep that goes. You know, you know.

Kelly Pastori: Yeah, right. That's the thing. It's like, it doesn't even come true. Like half these things aren't even true. What we've been taught. I just, it's making me think about, like, when I was studying a lot of bodies in grad school.

Right. I don't know what era you grew up in, but I grew up in the nineties and that was when the most idolized female body form was the waif. That was like, what was like socially the most beautiful body in, um, the culture at the time and the waif. It's like a drifting away of a body, you know, if like, you could just like push it and it falls.

And I just think that really society just has so much to say around what leaf color is the best. You know, the best or what discoloration or whatever is happening, you know, on your body that if you grow up and your experiences, that is a different, but that body is the desirable body. Then it just changes your whole mind and body shifts to what, Oh, I am not this, or I am that, or whatever it is.

So there's so much societal programming and all of it. Um, but, and it changes what other people are attracted to too. And. Yeah, media transforms what we are drawn to. So, yeah,

Nicole: I remember back in the day, if you had like a full body, it was a sign of your wealth, right? That you were not a worker and that you were royalty.

And that was what was preferred to like, yeah, what you're talking about in the nineties and the thigh gap and all this like, Oh my God, it's so culturally laden, which like, there's it. I'm excited for my career here. Wow. How much content will I have for the rest of my life to unpack? Feels endless.

Kelly Pastori: I know.

I know. Oh my God.

Nicole: And I, and I do think about like just the radicalness of, um, like that laugh I just shared with you, right? That like full bodied air laugh. And I think about the liberation of literally our voices and our bodies for that sort of stuff. Because back in the sixties, it was this, hi, I'm a woman.

And this is how I talk. I hold in my chest so, so, so tight because I'm a really feminine, delicate creature. Yep. So like literally just the liberation of us being able to like, ha, you know, like that's powerful. Right.

Kelly Pastori: It really is. Yeah. Yeah. I love that.

Nicole: Yeah. Well, it's such a joy to have you on the podcast today.

Thank you for joining us

Kelly Pastori: Thank you for having me. Such a treat to get to talk to you.

Nicole: I want to hold some space for you to plug where you're at, how people can connect with you, if they want to work with you, where would you want to plug?

Kelly Pastori: Sure. Yeah. The group that Rachel and I lead is a purity culture recovery group.

And, um, you can go to our group practices website, Agave for that information. My name is Kelly Pastore and Dr. Rachel Smith. Also, um, I do take clients in Texas and Illinois and do some consulting and coaching throughout. Yeah. The world, so wherever you want to go, my website is Kelly pastore. com or Kelly consulting and consulting.

com.

Nicole: Great. Great. I'll have all of that link below. And just a big thank you to you. You know, I record a lot of these different episodes and at the end of the day, like my ability, even in the space to feel comfortable is a co created dynamic where like, you've made me feel safe enough to like go and hit the points.

And so I really appreciate you holding that space for me too.

Kelly Pastori: The same. I feel the same. I really appreciate your space with me.

Nicole: If you enjoyed today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast. And head on over to modernanarchypodcast. com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode.

I want to thank you for tuning in, and I will see you all next week.

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