226. The Psychedelic Dose of Non-Monogamy with Moss Herberholz

Dr. Nicole: [00:00:00] Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Moss join us for a conversation about the paradigm expansion of psychedelics and monogamy. Together we talk about learning from our jealousy. Shattering the Madonna and the horror complex and pausing to integrate growth. Hello, a dear listener and welcome back to Modern Anarchy.

I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration therapy, [00:01:00] and I am also the founder of the Pleasure Practice supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships.

Dear. Listener, the psychedelic dose of non-monogamy. Wow. I have taken that drug and it has expanded my consciousness to ways I could have never predicted. You dear listener, know that I work with psychedelic assisted psychotherapy and that psychedelics are non-specific amplifiers of our cognition.

Non-monogamy is also a non-specific amplifier of your attachment and love, and. All of the feelings that come with relationships. And when I recorded this episode with Moss a year ago, I was writing my book, the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide, which is a free ebook that's available on my website, modern anarchy [00:02:00] podcast.com.

If you wanna read it, download it, share it with your friends, it is there. Online. I am a therapist, and part of that training is the years that I spent in community mental health and the need for free resources in this movement. And so please go check out the book, please share it with your community. And I am really excited to bring episodes like this where I'm getting into the praxis of those ideas, being able to talk to other therapists like Moss about the applications of psychedelic use, like set and setting intentions, all of that, and applying that into the paradigm expansion that is non-monogamy and are.

Culture. Ugh. There is so much good stuff in this episode, and I know you're gonna have so much fun diving into this juicy content, sharing it with your lovers and your community, and dear listener, I can promise that I will be here with you exploring these concepts, the [00:03:00] edge of our movement here every Wednesday for many, many years to come.

Ah. Alright, dear listener, if you want to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and free resources like the psychedelic jealousy guide on my website@modernanarchypodcast.com, linked in the show notes below. And I wanna say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters, you are supporting the long-term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content free and accessible to all people.

So thank you. If you wanna join the Patreon community, get exclusive access into my research and personal exploration, then you can head on over to patreon.com/modern Anarchy podcast, also linked in the show notes below. And with that, dear [00:04:00] listener, please know that I am sending you. All my love and let's tune in to today's episode.

Okay. And the first question that I ask every guest on the show is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

Moss: So usually what I tell people when I meet them is, my name is Moss, like the green stuff. Some things to know about me are that dancing is my favorite thing in the world. Hmm. My life's purpose is to bring more joy into the world through my work as a therapist and helping people connect to their joy through my own experiences of joyful self-expression through the clothing that I wear, my personal fashion, as well as my, the flow art that I engage in slack lining, fire, spinning, singing, performance, and beyond.

So those are the things that are most important to know about me as a human being.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Cool. Well, I'm excited to have you on the podcast today and get to talk about [00:05:00] pleasure and liberation and relationships. I think we're gonna have a really fun time.

Moss: Can't wait.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. So I know that when we had connected, we had talked about polyamory.

And I'm curious if you could take me back to the beginning of that journey. Where does it start for you? Where do you first hear this word? And, and yeah. Share the story please.

Moss: So, for me, my non-monogamy jo journey, my polyamory journey began in 2014. Uh, I was an undergrad at uc, Santa Cruz, living in this beautiful, uh, intentional community called the Trailer Park, which is a on-campus trailer park where students live in community with one another.

And I had a friend of, of mine mentioned to me this idea of polyamory. Mm-hmm. Um, as something that they were considering exploring for themself in their life. I remember my initial response to that, as maybe is familiar to some of your listeners is, oh, I could never do that. [00:06:00] I'm way too jealous and possessive.

Right? So that was my first initial take was like, no, no. That's like, there's no way I could do that because of my understanding of jealousy in my life and the role that plays in my relationship to it, as well as, uh, my understanding of love, right? And through conversations with that friend. I came to this understanding of how polyamory and non-monogamy in general could be this beautiful, wonderful, magical opportunity to change my relationship to jealousy, to change my understanding of love in my life.

And as somebody who really wants to learn and grow and challenge myself, uh, I'm a big proponent of like challenge by choice, right? Sure. Choosing the discomfort that I wanna experience in order to expand my comfort zone. Mm-hmm. Um, I saw in that moment polyamory as a beautiful opportunity to do that, to learn rather than avoid my jealousy at all costs and see it as this [00:07:00] horrifying monster that dominates my inner world.

I could. Get to understand and learn from my jealousy and get to see it as a really important, helpful guide in my life that points me towards the things that I am afraid of that points me to mys insecurities. Yeah. And helps me to understand the things that are important for me to communicate with the people in my life.

Mm-hmm. And so that was like this really exciting possibility that was presented to me through these conversations. Along with that was this understanding of, of love, the, the limitlessness of love. Mm-hmm. Right. And while there are limits to our time and our energy, right, there are limitations in our lives.

There's no limit to the amount of love that I experience in my life. Mm-hmm. Um, that I love my mom with all, all of my heart. I love my pets with all of my heart. I love my friends with all of my heart. I love the more than human world with all of my heart. Yeah. And I can love people in sexual and romantic relationships [00:08:00] with all of my heart without.

Excluding others from my heart. Yeah. So those were the things that kind of inspired me to decide, you know what, I'm going to try this thing that sounded impossible or just preposterous to me at first. Uh, and I'm so grateful that I did. Yeah. Because now here I am, uh, almost 10 years later, it was actually probably about around this time when I had those conversations.

Wow. So a day decade in, I can report back that it was well worth it. Mm-hmm. You know, lots of difficulty, lots of challenge along the way, lots of pain and suffering and struggling and stumbling and messing up and messing up again, and yeah. And it, it was in the service of getting me to a place in my life that is so magical and wonderful and freeing and liberating.

Yeah. In terms of my understanding, and at this point, my understanding is beyond sexual and romantic relationships, I really identify with a lot of aspects of relationship anarchy. And something that I appreciate about relationship anarchy [00:09:00] is it takes. The lens farther beyond sexual romantic relationships.

Right. As a friend of mine, uh, mentioned to me recently, polyamory can exist within relationship anarchy because polyamory is specifically is, is limited in certain ways because it's focused on sexual romantic relationships. And we can expand the lens to understand relationships in general and like what those relationships can include beyond just the sexual, romantic aspects of relationships that we choose to include.

Yeah. Those aspects of it.

Dr. Nicole: I hear you. Yeah, totally. There's monogamous relationship anarchists, right. It's more of that.

Moss: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole: Dismantling of the pud, romantic and sexual over platonic. Like what does it mean to actually value all of our relationships and get to design all of our relationships for unique individual relationships in a community?

I mean, like, those are things mm-hmm. That I think all people should be thinking about. So I, I hear what you're saying in terms of aligning with those values and [00:10:00] Yeah. What a journey. I'm sure your 10 years have been my years and it have been a while journey. The first time, um, one of the, the person I was dating at the time who mentioned it to me, I, I looked at him and said, if you loved me, you would love me and only me, I will never do this.

Mm-hmm. And like walked away. Right. You know, so like all of these narratives of what love meant, and I particularly came from a very purity. Culture, one person for whole life, purity ring sort of thing, so mm-hmm. Quite the journey of unpacking all of that. Right. And so I, I definitely resonate with you in terms of the pain and the tears and the questions, but also the pleasure that has come from that journey.

There has been a lot of hard work that we have done to unpack these things. And so that pleasure feels like, you know, I rock climb and that's like my movement practice that feels really good. And rock climbing is scary and hard and difficult and takes a lot of training, but man, when you [00:11:00] get to that top, it is so good.

And through many of the years of getting to a space, I've just realized that there is no top though in, in non monogamy. Right. And polyamory. It's just continual learning, I feel like, of how to, how to practice love. Right? Like, what does it mean to actually be in loving connection with multiple people and all people.

Yeah.

Moss: I think I would like, I hear you in terms of, it's a constant journey of growth and learning, and I hear you say that it's not, there's no top. Yeah. And also I, I would maybe just disagree that there are, there are these really wonderful, magical moments that Sure. It feels like we're at the top of a mountain.

Yeah. And just like with rock climbing or any sort of movement practice, it's not about climbing one mountain and then being done. Right. Right. It's about continuing to. Climb the next one and the next one. Mm-hmm. Have a new experience and a new experience and pushes yourself further in that journey of learning.

How do I use that, that new technique that I'm working on, how do I Yeah. You know, um, bring the challenge one step further, [00:12:00] which is something that I also relate to in, in my movement practice of like Sure. Part of what's keeps me interested in it is that growing edge. So Yeah, I hear you. In regards to like that constant journey of learning and also within the context of relationships.

There are absolutely moments of these totally. These beautiful, uh, peaks. Right, right. But that's not the point. That's not like, that's not what I got into it. I wasn't because I wanted to get to a place and be done, it was because I wanted that. Right. Continual journey of growth and learning.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, totally. I think that that's something in my own journey and with some of the clients from the pleasure practice when I work with them, like people who get, you know, they're like, oh, there's so much more to do, so much more to unpack. I'm still struggling with this and I, it's, it's sometimes helpful to like pause and also have people look at how far they've already come.

Like that one thing that you couldn't fathom doing is now so normalized in your dynamic, but they're still constantly looking up of like, well, I still haven't unpacked that. And I'm like, yeah, but do you see all the other stuff that you have done? Right. [00:13:00] So I think it is so important in this process to like get to those moments and look around and be like, wow, this has been quite the journey.

I am actually here now. I'm not in that space anymore. And so to celebrate that plus that. That deeper understanding of like systems of oppression and how deep those go into our psyches. Like I think that I'll be still i'll, I'm confident. I don't think, like I'm confident that I'll be on my deathbed one day still unpacking the ways the society is deeply pulling us away from community and pleasure.

Right? Like that feels like a never ending practice that that has so much to give back both to me and and my community.

Moss: Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. It's been quite the journey and I think I, I particularly find a lot of benefit with the psychedelic lens to understanding these things. I, I wrote a guidebook on grounding in moments of jealousy.

I think that's often, like you said, the big thing that [00:14:00] people start with is, I could never, I'm so jealous and

Moss: mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole: I, I remember growing up in a very puritanical culture, I was taught that, you know, it was very gendered and heterosexual, like, boys and girls cannot be alone in a room together. That is forbidden.

You'll just self combust into like sexual erotic destruction and sin. You know, like you have no self-control. It's a really problematic narrative when you think about it. Um, and then when I was dating people, monogamously, even outside of the Christian puritanical culture, I would freak out the second that my, um, boyfriend at the time would say, oh, I'm gonna go get coffee with one of my friends.

That's a woman. I'd lose my shit. Like mm-hmm. In, in a monogamous, committed, safe relationship, uh, because it felt like emotional cheating, right? All these words mm-hmm. That I strongly disagree with now. Mm-hmm. But, um, at the time those were such strong, like feelings of jealousy. And so I think you're right.

Most people when they hear this, they say, I could never because of jealousy. And so for me, you know, [00:15:00] the psychedelic world. I could never do acid 'cause it melts your brain that's gonna fuck you up. Right? This world of like the, the, the stories and the narratives of what we say about drugs and how culturally laden they are and how then culturally laden our dynamic is of love and there then there's the people who have never tried the psychedelic and say, I could never do it 'cause it's bad for you.

And then there's also the people that. Try the psychedelic and say, you know, that's okay. I've explored it, I've done it. I've tried swinging. It's not my thing. Right. There's the people who do it for a long time. Love the high doses, the multiple orgies, the full experience, like the whole thing. Now, other people that like small doses, right.

But I do feel like there's a lot of work to do in the initial space of the person who thinks that acid is gonna melt their brain. And a lot of work to do in the initial space of thinking, I could never do non-monogamy. I'm too jealous. Mm-hmm. Like, like there's a level of cultural space that needs to be created for the reality that it's possible.

It's more than possible.

Moss: Yeah. And I think the systems [00:16:00] in that are currently in place, the systems of power, uh, in our society are intent on keeping us within the current paradigms. Right. Like the, the, the understanding that monogamy is the only appropriate type of relationship and you cannot think about leaving it, uh, you know, just as the racist.

Classist war on drugs. Mm-hmm. Um, has been intent on controlling people from its very beginnings explicitly. And because in part, because of the threat, uh, of people kind of stepping out of the current paradigm and challenging it, you know, in both in the 1920s, the initial racist war on drugs, you know, there is the conversations around, oh, Chinese people or black people will forget their place and sleep with white women.

Right. Then, like the idea that they're gonna challenge the, the existing paradigms was very threatening just as with the more recent racist classes to war on drugs that was initiated by Nixon. How it was explicitly [00:17:00] focused on controlling people who were challenging the existing paradigms, such as, uh, the anti-war protesters that were using psychedelics and stepping out of the paradigms that they were existing in.

So I think both with non-monogamy as well as with psychedelics, as you're mentioning, it gives us that opportunity to step out of the existing paradigm. Yeah. And therefore think about and understand that paradigm mm-hmm. From a new perspective in order to question and whether or not it's something that we want to continue in.

Right. Right. And some, as you're saying, some people decide, yes, I actually, this works for me, I'm gonna stay in it. Right. But it's harder to actually get a perspective, like get an understanding of the current paradigm and how it compares to other paradigms if you haven't taken any time exploring their other paradigms.

Totally. Right. So similarly, similarly to how power the systems kind of. Inclined people to be scared of drugs, scared of psychedelics. Right, right. Also, individual people like have their own fears of substances in, in part because they have their own [00:18:00] fears of how that might threaten their paradigms of understanding themselves.

Right. Which is, which I'm not saying in like a judgmental way, like I could understand that why somebody might be afraid and therefore decide I don't want to explore something that might be threatening to my understanding of myself. That's perfectly valid. Yeah. And also that is more so a choice to remain in comfort, which isn't in of itself bad, is just different from what I personally am more, uh, inclined towards, which is that leaning into discomfort as a way of expanding my understanding of myself Sure.

Myself expanding, uh, growing and learning and that kind of thing. I'm curious like what you think in regards to that.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I mean, I think the idea of, oh, I take drugs. That's an a lot to unpack for someone to identify with that based on the messaging and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Different identities, different positionalities because of all that.

Yes. Mm-hmm. I think, um, when you look at it historically, outside [00:19:00] of our colonization and white patriarchal narratives that have been deeply rooted in puritanical beliefs, what we know is even just currently, there are cultures that do not practice monogamy, right? Mm-hmm. We know that. And then if we look at the history, we know that it has not always been like this, right?

So, but, uh, these are things that I didn't know until, like, getting deeper into studying this and this being like my area of

Moss: mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole: Devotion of, of understanding content. Right. And so then when you think about the reality of the ways that. We have to talk about the history that women were property, right?

And so for a long period of time, men were expected to have other sorts of extra marital affairs because the women were property that would secure a lineage. And then so we can go all the way back to like when we started property and agriculture and the plow and the whole thing, right? But for a long time, women [00:20:00] were property and men were expected to have extra marital affairs where they had love and those sorts of joy, uh, play and sexual erotic desire fulfilled, right?

And then there's a great book called How Love Conquered Marriage, um, by Stephanie Kunz, I believe is how you say her last name. And it really talks about a lot of this narrative of the romance and how that swept in. And so I think that when you look at it at a larger historical context, you start to see, yeah, these different ways that these systems, right?

And. The ways that marital rape wasn't illegal in all 50 states until 1997. So until then, like men could rape their wives 'cause they were property. And that was totally normal in all 50 states until 1990, fucking seven. Okay. Guy. Like, there is a whole history to this. And again, that does not mean that you have to take psychedelics to live an expansive, fulfilled life.

Mm-hmm. You can live an expansive, erotically fulfilled life with one person and joy. Right. But fuck, have I learned a [00:21:00] lot when I did take my first drop of mushrooms? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And would I trade it for anything? No. You know? Mm-hmm. I'm so happy to be where I'm at now. And I think that that's where, again, the paradigms of like psychedelic, um.

You know, the ways that people come in and say, you have to do it, put it in the water, it's gonna change everything. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. The non monogamy community gets very similar. Right. Like, oh, you have to do it, it's everything. Go for it. You know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it's like, yo, there are many ways to live a good life.

It's important to unpack the messaging around drugs that have sold us lives. I think it's important to unpack the messaging around sex and relationships that have sold us lives. Mm-hmm. But let's not be preaching to other people how to do life. Right? Mm-hmm.

Moss: Yeah. Absolutely. And I, I agree, um, that some people maybe become really, uh, yeah.

Focused on Yeah. Trying to convince other people Yes. To do something that they have seen as helpful for themself, assuming that they know what's best for others. Right. Which is something that is, you know, problematic, I believe.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Moss: It's my perspective [00:22:00] that you can't have an informed opinion about whether or not non-monogamy is gonna work for you, whether or not psychedelics are gonna work for you.

Whether or not monogamy is the best relationship structure orientation for you unless you have explored other options? I think, I think in order to make an informed choice, we have to be informed.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Moss: Right. And so I can't know what psychedelics are gonna feel like for me unless I've tried them. I can't know whether or not non-monogamy is gonna work for me unless I've tried it.

And while I, that doesn't mean everybody has to try psychedelics or has to try non-monogamy, it does mean that they can't necessarily say with, with 100% certainty that those things aren't gonna work for them if they haven't tried them. Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: And it's hard. That shit's hard because I'm in my world of like multiple partnerships these days.

And I use that word to like refer specifically to like sexual connections with multiple people. And as I do that with love, [00:23:00] it is what a trip like I fell in love with someone where I could see the world of us like. Living together and having kids in this very non-monogamous world. Of course, to be very clear, there's never been a world of monogamy, but it hits onto that narrative.

Mm-hmm. Of the white picket fence. And the second I found that sort of connection, it was so hard to then continue to have sex and erotic connections with the other people in my world because the other people I've been connecting, we've been having like kinky, expansive, playful dungeon bad girl in her liberation phase sex.

And then I'm meeting this like white picket fence narrative and I'm going, oh shit. Is that kinky phase gonna ruin the white picket fence phase? And you know what's happening? It's the Madonna and the horror complex. And I have no narratives out here in this world to tell me that, Hey girl, you get to have it both.

Mm-hmm You get to have it all. Mm-hmm. And so you're right. I am in this space currently of going, wow, this psychedelic is really [00:24:00] hard and it's hard to make my informed. Choice because the set and setting is off. Because you know when someone takes that first psychedelic to try it, but it is in this radical, complex, chaotic environment they say.

I will never do that again. That was one of the scariest things of my entire life. I couldn't trust my partner. There was atachment. I felt chaotically all over the place. And I would say, yeah, your set and setting sucked. And so even in this world of many of us taking the drug of non-monogamy, our set and setting still sucks.

Mm-hmm. Because I am looking for some sort of pioneer who's telling me it's okay when I'm doing and I can't find her. Mm-hmm. So if you let me know where she's at, that would change my sentence setting please. Mm-hmm. So I think this just brings into a lot of interesting questions about free will. And I, I try to not talk about that topic 'cause everyone doesn't wanna talk about where that limit is and what that looks like.

Mm-hmm. But we have to talk about the reality that these paradigm [00:25:00] expanders are hard when you're not in a good set and setting. And so we are often lacking a space of sexual liberation to even look into, to even glimpse and see a world of what is possible. And so. You're right. Mm-hmm. I think you can't make that informed choice until you take the bite, but the set and setting is always gonna be impacting us, and I'm, I'm excited for future generations who will like, get to live in a more liberated world, but for now, whoa.

You know?

Moss: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. I really appreciate what you're sharing about, thinking about set and setting of non-monogamy, um, within the current predominant like dominating paradigm. Um, and while I do appreciate there being an expansion of people talking about these things, like there are role models, there are people, this is becoming something that's more accepted as a, like a possibility.

There still is very much at the predominating, uh, the dominating, uh, paradigm of Right monogamy.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's tricky. And I think that that's where [00:26:00] I talk about, you know, coming back to what you were saying earlier of discomfort, right? When I was first coming out into my queerness, I felt wrong.

I felt like I was doing something bad. I felt like I was being judged. And particularly I was from my Mormon family. So that's very real. Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. And then you live in a culture where that's what it is. And so that level of internalized homophobia that exists as you start to step into that.

Mm-hmm. And so I, I try to give myself some level of, um, grounding when I'm going through different moments of struggling in this, of saying, okay, this makes sense. Like there's deeply internalized mono normativity bias that is making this hard. So my struggle with it is not something that I'm going to attach to as a definer of me.

Mm-hmm. The internalized homophobia is not us. Right? Mm-hmm. So we take space from that, and then I allow myself to cry and be held by the people in my community, and then I go through gentle levels of discomfort where the edge push [00:27:00] feels, feels like a dose I can take, you know? Mm-hmm. And that first time you don't just say, oh, well, I mean, some people do, but I don't just go like, let me give the highest dose ever.

I'm just gonna rip the bandaid off and like, get into that psychedelic space. Mm-hmm. Like that, you know? Sure. But like that is a space where a lot of harm could happen too. Right? So

Moss: there's greater risk. Yeah. Right?

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. So like, how can I take gentle steps, right? Mm-hmm. Gentle steps. What does it, what is a small step of expansion that is going to feel uncomfortable?

Because if you're waiting for this to feel super comfortable, you will wait until you die. However, what does it mean to be connected to your body in that space of, of stretching, right?

Moss: Yeah. I think, I think the, like fear of discomfort is a big thing that that comes up for all of us in moments, and I think that it's valid to be afraid of.

Things that are unpleasant. Right? Yeah. And it's, it's valid to decide I'm going to stay in my comfort zone. I'm not going to Right. Be brave in [00:28:00] acting even though I'm afraid. Right. And that, that's just a different, that has a, that kind of choice has a different result. It does, might, may limit us in certain ways that we're allowed to choose to be limited.

Right? Yes. And also, we might choose to not be as limited. And I hear you in terms of think, you know, I'm, now I'm thinking about what you were sharing about the, the set and setting being this really important thing. And whereas somebody might have a negative or difficult psychedelic experience or a negative, difficult non monogamy experience, they might say, oh, I'm done with that.

Because non-monogamy is bad. Right. Because psychedelics are, are, are harmful. Right. Or they Right. Rather than understand the interplay between the substance and the set and the setting. Right. And so like yeah, like it reminds me of that. On that very common kind of, uh, thing that happens where people blame the problem on non-monogamy.

They're like, oh, non-monogamy is the problem. That's why your relationship isn't working. Right. They conveniently [00:29:00] ignore the fact that so many marriages end in divorce in monogamy. Right. They don't, they don't point the finger at mm-hmm. At the, um, at the failings in that context. Yeah. And maybe part of that is because they're in the set and setting of, of monogamy.

Right. Right. So normative. So it's, it fades into the background. It's not as recognizable or Right. It's invisible just as power and privilege end up operating in our, in our world, in our lives. And that's part of how, how they work to begin with, right? Mm-hmm. And unfortunately, people Yeah. Focus on the substance, right.

Whether it be a monogamy or a psychedelic. Right. Or some, yeah. Or some other experience. End up not thinking so much about the set and setting, and so maybe mm-hmm. They, they maybe if you gave it a second try, you would have a really positive experience of non-monogamy or of a psychedelic, and it's okay for you to choose to not ever try it again.

Right. And also that, that there is a missed opportunity in there Right. Of potentially having a better set and setting, having a, a more positive [00:30:00] experience. Yeah. And then therefore being encouraged to continue leading into the discomfort that comes with experiences that are new to us, that, um, are unfamiliar, that are outside of the prevailing paradigm, et cetera.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. It's cool to have, you see me like in my theories, that feels fun. Like I'm over here like thinking about this, like seeing the parallels going, like, oh yeah, it's so rich. Like, it's right there. So it's fun to have you like see and be like, yeah, that makes sense. I'm like, thank you, thank you. I've been thinking about this a lot.

Moss: Yeah. I'm having the same experience over here. Just like also of like, oh wow, I really love these new ways of thinking about the, like this is the kind of conversation that I really, uh, love and appreciate and Totally, yeah. I'm really grateful for, for the, the chance to talk with you. Yeah. Because oftentimes I find myself kind of having the same conversations with people.

Mm. Like who are, you know, new to, like, for example, somebody who's new to non monogamy or new to the idea of psychedelic therapy. Right. I'm, I have like kind of like, or Yeah, yeah. I have the continued conversation over and over and over again and it gets tiresome. So it's really is energizing and exciting to hear, [00:31:00] talk to people who, who are.

I had an inclination to say at my level, but I don't necessarily think that's the way it is. But more so just like people who also have experiences, right. Uh, that are beyond the kind of initial experiences, people who are focused in thinking about these kinds of things and mm-hmm. And who yeah. Get excited about these topics and Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: So I'm, I'm, it's a joy, right? Those are, that's when you've been in a, in a good relationship. But you see, when you feel seen and you have that energy, and so the more that we can find connections like that, the more that we feel that life force and that that zest and that joy and the pleasure of connection.

Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. And so I, I feel that, and, and it is a beauty to be seen in that way, because you're right. Whatever word we wanna say about it, there is a certain paradigm of understanding. And so when someone looks at me and says, what's non-monogamy? I'm starting in a very different. Level of conversation of where I could go mm-hmm.

In that hour and a half, right? Mm-hmm. And so, and, and being able to name that I think is important. [00:32:00] And yeah, there are so many ways in which I, I, yeah. Just going through my psychedelic training that, that I just saw so many different pull throughs that made so much sense to me. Like you're saying of you have that one bad drug experience and never again.

And what would it mean for someone to experience non-monogamy in the most ideal set and setting where you feel safe and held and expansive and like, that is the vision I see for people. It's a vision I see for my own life of what is possible. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And in that world, it's a very different story.

And I think that when we, mm-hmm. Talk about psychedelics. We get into the realities of, of the research, right, of the healing and all these different things. Even the harm reduction of what it means to be educated on these topics. And oh my God, the lack of sex research in the space will drive me insane for a lifetime because mm-hmm.

It is just not out there as you [00:33:00] can imagine, right? Mm-hmm. And what we do see is, like you mentioned, like the high rates of divorce. What we do see is high rates of struggling erotically. You can have one of the most fulfilling connected relationships and still struggle with eroticism in a long-term dynamic.

And that is what so many books are written about. Esther per bill, Emily Nago, like so many books like are written about this struggle, right? Mm-hmm. And so then when I find research that does talk about how like. Women's desire in particular struggles the most in monogamous relationships when you're living together.

And of course we have to have some deeper conversation about gender roles and expectations and what usually happens in those sorts of spaces of the roles that women have to take. And of course, things like the orgasm gap, of course, of like the ways that women have been disconnected. Women were sent to sane asylums when they were too [00:34:00] erotic.

We have a long history, I'm trying to cuss less. We have a long history mm-hmm. Of all the stuff that is in there. And also I am very curious. About what a world of deep, loving, intimate connection with multiple people in an ideal set and setting could bring for that person who struggles with eroticism. I deeply believe, and in my own life, I guess lived experience here, is that it brings more zest and eroticism across all of my relationships when I'm in loving connection.

Moss: Mm-hmm. I really, you know, I appreciate you sharing all of that, and I'm definitely thinking about how, in regards to thinking of set and setting Yeah. With non-monogamy and with like Yeah, with what you're talking about regarding sex. Yeah. And kink and that kind of thing. I'm thinking about how people are drawn towards communities of.

Like-minded people of similar people. Yeah. I guess I, I hear people talk about how it's hard, so how hard it can be to find non-monogamous community. Sure. Right. [00:35:00] And I, and I could see that part of the desire, the draw towards finding non-monogamous community is the draw towards trying to create more of a set and setting that is supportive and loving and caring.

Right? Yeah. Um, and so while yes, there's that broader setting, setting that we all still exist within that, uh, people are moving towards community as a means of improving, setting, setting, right? Mm-hmm. Of creating those, those beautiful, wonderful, supportive containers. Yeah. Um, for those experiences that are more likely to be positive, more likely to be ideal, less.

Uh, risk, right. Associated risk. Less possibility of negative experiences when we have those supportive mm-hmm. Um, containers of set and setting of community, whether it be Yeah, regarding sex or non-monogamy or psychedelics or whatever the community is that we're, we're thinking about or talking about.

Dr. Nicole: Totally.

Moss: Yeah. I also just like, you know, before you mentioned in regards to like this conversation, I just want to. Tell you or say to you that I, [00:36:00] I'm grateful. Thank, like, I wanna express my gratitude for the fact that you helped me in fulfilling my life's purpose. I said before, my life's purpose is joy.

And so, like, in this conversation, I am feeling a lot of joy. And so like in this moment, my life's purpose is being fulfilled of, of experiencing more joy, of, of yeah. Bringing more joy into the world. And so, yeah. Um, that's just like another exciting part of this. Um, yeah,

Dr. Nicole: the gratitude.

Moss: So, so yeah. One of the thing, while I work primarily as a therapist and I do, you know, some other things like dismantling oppression, uh, workshop facilitation, and I do some performance and I help, uh, organize this event called En Theo Fest.

It's the, um, annual celebration of the decriminalization of psychedelic plants and fungi in Ann Arbor. Um, that happens every year in September. I'm also involved with a, uh, a research team that has been doing these survey studies about people's. Psych, uh, naturalistic, psychedelic use. So we've already [00:37:00] published a number of papers, uh, as a result of the three years of surveys that we've done.

Mm-hmm. And hopefully by the time this podcast episode airs, we will have published a couple more papers, including one that's focused on people's psychedelic experiences and how they've affected their gender identity and expression. Sure. Their sexual orientation, their relationship with monogamy and non-monogamy, their relationship with sexuality.

Mm-hmm. Um, so while it's, you know, there are limitations to that kind of research, it's a convenient sample. It's, uh, it's only, it's not necessarily generalizable. It's, I'm, I'm grateful to be able to be a part of research. So yes, I absolutely agree. There is a need for way more research in regards to sexuality, in regards to non monogamy, and I'm really grateful to be a part of a team that's doing a small, tiny bit of that.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Thank, thank you for that work. Yeah. That's so important. So, so important because we need more of that out in the world. And yeah, [00:38:00] my um. My colleague, Dr. Dr. Jeff Bey, was just at like a conference and like sent me a, a picture of some sort of study that was saying like, psilocybin was way more effective than your average, like medications and improving sexual satisfaction and all these other areas.

Mm-hmm. And I was like, some of the stuff I'm like, well, well duh, you know, but I'm like, but I'm so glad that there are teams like you and other people that are doing it because I don't wanna do that work. I'm so happy there are people that are doing that. 'cause we need that right. With mm-hmm. That's part of like, again, relationship anarchy, power structure is how do we dismantle this?

We have to play the game, which is also demonstrating the effectiveness of it through these very like, demonstrated clinical or you know, the whole thing. So mm-hmm. I'm so thankful to have people like you and other people around the world that are, we're each like pulling our threads right. Of, of the big tapestry to unravel it and to help people be liberated from this.

'cause we have to have that research, be able to change the paradigm. And so yeah. Thank you for your work.

Moss: Uh, yeah. Thank you. [00:39:00] I'm really grateful for the tiny, tiny piece that I, I get to contribute.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious if there's anything you would wanna say to your younger self, like sitting where you're at now with the years of experience that you do have when you look back to yourself, is there anything you would've wanted to have said?

Moss: I, out and in particular, you're, you're talking about the monogamy 2014. Sure. I of Moss

Dr. Nicole: you, you can pick it anywhere along the journey. Um, but I'm just curious, like sitting in your, your space now, is there anything you'd wanna say?

Moss: So many things.

Dr. Nicole: I know, right.

Moss: And also, like recently I've been really interested in, in, in IFS internal family systems.

Sure. Yeah. And like that's, so there's a lot that comes to mind in regards to Yep. Younger, younger parts of myself, but. Yeah. I mean, what I would wanna say to the 2014 version of Moss who [00:40:00] is just starting his journey of, uh, non-monogamy, I would want to say you're on the right path. Like this is a good choice.

Like, you're not gonna regret Yeah. This, this, uh, decision to step into challenge. Yeah. To lean into discomfort, um, in this way that it's going to serve you well. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I guess that, that's the thing that I would say,

Dr. Nicole: I would've loved to have heard that on the days that I was crying, right? Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Like, Hey, this is the right path. Like, you're gonna be okay. Hi Fat Cat. Mm-hmm. Um. Yeah. To get comfortable with the discomfort as a part of that growth, as a part of the, the pleasure that you'll eventually step into by dismantling these systems and the ways that they've mm-hmm. Been internalized.

Right. That would've been such a nice hug to receive and something that, you know, I'll continue to provide both for me [00:41:00] and my community, which you had mentioned community, and again, community is part of the set. Dean, that is part of our, I mean, again, as a therapist, I think it's also a part of the set because

Moss: mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole: Our individual consciousness are formed by the collective in your community. But we don't have to go too deep in unpacking the rabbit hole here. Mm-hmm. But if we think about our setting Yeah, yeah. I know, right? You know, um.

Moss: I'm not afraid.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, totally. Yeah. Because, you know, like, Hey man, I think the individual exists, but it's a, it's a, it's a collection of all of the individual plus the people, right?

Mm-hmm. All of the people. Mm-hmm. Hmm. All. Mm-hmm. This language that I'm using wasn't created by me, you know, all this. Mm-hmm. Oh, you know, so the individual in the collective, where do we start this set and setting delineations. Mm-hmm. But in terms of setting community is definitely a big piece of that.

And I think that being able to have other people that you can talk about and integrate, right. Psychedelic integration, integrate your experiences of sexual liberation particularly, and [00:42:00] especially relational liberation. Ooh, that is so helpful because the amount of times that I, you know, I have a diverse community of people that I love and I'm connected to, but.

When I come to them and I say, oh, I had this experience with non-monogamy, and they say, oh, I could never do that. That sounds so difficult. I'm like, okay, this is not necessarily the helpful space that I mm-hmm. Really needed right now, but that's okay. I, I will now care, take for your discomfort, right?

Mm-hmm. Or not, I'll just change the subject. Right. And so what does it mean then to find community where you can be seen and understood, and then on top of that, of course, your, your metamours, whoa. Mm-hmm. What a game changer when your metamours are on the same levels of respect and care. Mm-hmm. And community connection.

That is some good set and setting, and I have choked about this, but like, if I cannot do mushrooms with my metamor, what world are we on? You know, what world are we, you know, like if I [00:43:00] really feel so much intensity and discomfort around this person mm-hmm. E you know, like at minimum respect, care, love, community connection, so, mm-hmm.

I just feel through my own lived experience of struggling with some metamor dynamics that were like, mm-hmm. Outside of my control. I, it's, again, a na, a big reminder of what like set and setting can do for the experience.

Moss: Absolutely. Yeah, I definitely resonate with that in terms of how things change when we have metamours that, uh, yeah.

Have experience as opposed to not just as, it's very different to be in relationship with somebody who's new to non-monogamy as opposed to someone who's not. Right.

Dr. Nicole: Um,

Moss: and yeah, because there's a lot of, there's a lot of energy that goes into supporting somebody new, uh, to non monogamy. And then there's also Right, there's, there's potential challenges and difficulties that come from being in relationship with somebody who's in relationship with somebody who's new.

Right. To non monogamy. Yeah. And I understand the only way for there to be an [00:44:00] expansion of Phenomenous community is for there to be people. I am not, uh, trashing that at all, and there is a certain amount of understanding, okay, how much of that do I want? How much of in my life at this moment? Right. That might change tomorrow.

That might Right. Be very ifferent I was willing to be exposed to in the past, but it is, yeah, important to be thinking about. About that. I personally am not interested in having a say in who my metamours are. Mm-hmm. I mean, I'm certainly open to sharing thoughts and, you know, thoughts I have or perspectives I have with a partner of mine, not in the, personally in the business of saying you can't be in this relationship.

Right, right. Although I know that there are people who do hierarchical polyamory and who use vetoes and Right. Like there's, there's all sorts of conversations that we could have around those kinds of things that I'm not, I'm not in, I'm also not in the department of saying that that never can work or is bad is like bad inherently or anything like that.

Um, but regardless, yeah, there definitely, it is important to be aware of our, [00:45:00] our, our setting in, in terms of thinking about how much, uh, we wanna be exposed to like those newer people. So, uh,

Dr. Nicole: yeah. And i, I think like in some way we have conversations about this in the queer community, right. Of. I am nervous or apprehensive to connect with someone who's bicurious.

Moss: Mm-hmm. Right.

Dr. Nicole: Because if I attach to this person, they could at some point be like, oh, it wasn't for me. Goodbye. Right. And so I think that there is some obviously level of reasonable discussion of, um, being careful, uh, of what it means to connect to someone who's new, right? Mm-hmm. And all of that. And I hear the complexities of what you're saying of, of change is the only inevitable, right?

The things that once felt secure could start to feel way too restrictive and the things that once felt expansive could start to feel way too chaotic, right? So just being in that flex state with all of that, and I appreciate your discussion of not [00:46:00] controlling other people. That's definitely an important value of mine, right?

Is to not, not come to anyone in my world and say, you cannot be with this person. That level of power over dynamic makes me feel uncomfortable. Mm-hmm. I think that. At least navigating some of this, and the complexity to use of, of the messiness of it all is when a metamor or someone else is actively discriminating against you mm-hmm.

Or saying, or judging you. Mm-hmm. Oof, messy. Right. Like I, mm-hmm. I, I believe that my desires for people that I connect with is that at minimum there is a level of respect.

Moss: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole: And so, again, yeah. Not using the words of, you can't do this, but. I think this is where you can get into really interesting dynamics of saying, for me, I feel safest when there is at minimum a level of respect.

And so then you look to your partner and say, how do you want [00:47:00] to respect that? And they can choose to be with that person or not. And then it's back onto me of how do I wanna respond rather than a, you can't be with this person or not, I'm gonna state what makes me feel safe and meet you and compromise.

And then also they get the choice of how to respond and then I get the choice again of how to respond. Mm-hmm. Uh, that's been some of the more messy spaces that I've been navigating of like what it looks like to actually live into that when you're set and setting is mm-hmm.

Moss: Absolutely. Yeah. That can be really messy.

Yeah. And there's a lot of, there's a lot of nuance in there, right? Yes. In terms of, uh, if, yeah. If I have a metamore who's not, who I don't feel safe around, um, there are certain things that I can choose to do to protect myself. Right? Right. Limiting exposure or interaction with them. And also there can be instances in which I let a partner of mine know, Hey, I'm feeling this way.

And at the end of the day, it might make the most sense for me to just set if that is truly what's going on. Of like, there's this memoir that [00:48:00] I don't feel safe with. Yeah. And I'm not willing to be in a relationship with somebody in that, that close that kind of proximity to somebody that I don't feel safe with.

It might be on me to decide that I then need to leave the relationship. Right. It, it's really dicey. Yes. 'cause get into the, the realm of, of ult shifting from a, having a bit, yeah. Having a boundary become an ultimatum. Yeah. There's a very big difference between, a very subtle difference between, Hey, I just wanna let you know this is really hard for me and like I respect that you're, that you might choose to continue on this relationship, and if you do so I am, for my own sake, I'm gonna have to leave and I that I respect your decision to stay in the relationship as opposed to.

I'm having a really hard time, time with this. If you don't leave this relationship right, I'm going to have to leave. Right. Dot, dot dot. Right. As opposed to, Hey, I've really been working on this and grappling with this, and I'm realizing now that like, I, I need to leave, you know, I respect your decision and I'm going to leave now.

Right. Totally. Um, that there's, this sounds so similar, but there's so much differe they're very different, but difference in terms of

Dr. Nicole: [00:49:00] Yeah.

Moss: Yeah. With all of this, it can be really messy Relationships in general. Right. Can be really messy. Right. And really difficult. Just, just as much in monogamous relationships as a non-monogamous relationships.

Yeah. And you know, as somebody who's been non identified as non monogamous for 10 years, I'm still making mistakes. I'm still messing up Totally. The idea that like, I'm gonna somehow not ever feel jealousy now just because I've had so much experience of shifting my relationship to jealousy is not the reality for me.

Right. Yeah. That I am gonna continue to, to experience jealousy in my life. And it, it's more so like, how do I handle that? Right. Um, so. I'm not trying to like make it sound like, oh, like new people like are always making mistakes and I am like perfect at not making mistakes. Totally. But rather, yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: And again, I think this is where the paradigm of psychedelics can be helpful, right? Like that first time you do the psychedelic, you are saying, Ooh, what the hell is happening? Hopefully having a great time, hopefully. But as you continue to ride the waves of [00:50:00] psychedelic experiences, we do have to name that there is some level of understanding.

A bit more of what to expect, right? Mm-hmm. And the important part of that, which is what I hear you saying, is that jealousy does not go away. It is possible that you could take a dose and have a bad time. Anyone who comes to me and says, I could never have a bad time on, on a psychedelic. Whoa. The universe is gonna have a trip for you one day, my friend.

Right. So any person who says, I could never be jealous and nomin me, it's like, Hey, hold on, hold on. And often jealousy is indicator of what we want too. Right? It can obviously be an indicator of unpacking narratives of, you know, like I was saying, my like kinky liberatory, sex radical narrative and the white picket fence narrative and, and the complexities of those.

But it can also be, um, and of course insecurities. If I don't, if I look at someone else and my metamours maybe quote unquote more attractive or more intelligent, all of that stuff. That's, that's very true. And there's also [00:51:00] a space of, wow, I saw my partner get their, uh, my metamore flowers.

Moss: Hmm.

Dr. Nicole: I actually also would like to get flowers.

So this is an indicator of desire. And so rather than getting hurt, how can I come to my partner and say, Hey, like, it'd be really meaningful for me if we in introduce more like gifts, right? And stuff like that. Mm. Right? Mm-hmm. So I also think of jealousy as a really epic way of also seeing what you want and what you crave.

And so the more that we can see the possibility of getting what we want, the less we get stuck in the jealousy of, oh, I want that and can't have it. That's where we, we ruminate, get upset, angry, like more of the, mm-hmm. I see this and I get to ask for it. Mm-hmm. I get to ask for that in my dynamic. Whoa.

That is a very different world than shut down frustration, anger, sadness, the actual ability to ask and receive for what you want. Ooh,

Moss: Uhhuh. Yeah. Right. And asking for it doesn't mean we're gonna get it [00:52:00] necessarily. Right. Right. Letting a, letting somebody know, Hey, I'm feeling jealous in this moment, and I is not me saying you need to stop doing that, but rather just wanting the person to know that that's what's going on for me.

Mm-hmm. I'm also in, in what you're talking about, I'm hearing a little bit of the distinction between jealousy and envy. Mm-hmm. Uh, jealousy being the, like fear of losing something that we have. Whereas envy is the, like, wanting something that somebody else has. Um, and I think that's something that often people aren't necessarily, uh, able to delineate with inside of themselves of like, what is this?

Yeah. What is jealousy and what is envy? But regardless, both of them are these really. Helpful, mm-hmm. Guides, right? Mm-hmm. Pointing us, shining light on, and really important information about what's going on for us in terms of what we're lacking or what we're wanting. Um, yeah. And yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: I often use the phrase like, oh, you're going on vacation to this tropical island.

I'm so jealous.

Moss: Uhhuh.

Dr. Nicole: So, so maybe colloquially we do [00:53:00] use it similar to envy right. In some

Moss: ways ab Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. There's definitely a conflating of the two. Um, sure. Like they're very similar. They're, they're like adjacent and, and not to say that they're always separate or something like that, but rather, yeah, I agree that, that there is like, kind of, uh, flattening of them into the one.

Sure. Um. Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: But yeah, identify like these words, identify more language. Like I think about the emotional wheel in psychology. Mm-hmm. Right? Of like, here's more words. So yeah, the more words we can get to say, Hey, I'm actually not feeling jealousy, I'm feeling envy. Great. We love that. We love if we can say, Hey, this is indicating a desire to me and I am, I am gonna go towards that space.

And so yeah, that's great if we can get more people into understanding the different emotions that are a part of this experience. And I think a really big part of it too is also the somatic piece. Coming back to the body. Right. A lot of what I've learned from my psychedelic training is the importance of when you are [00:54:00] feeling that intense come up, particularly at the beginning of some drugs.

Right. Rather than fighting it to actually be with it. And then what does that mean? It often to means that like the intensity is gonna rise higher as you tune into the somatic experience. Mm-hmm. But then that allows us to have that drop back down, right? Mm-hmm. And I think very similarly, when you're feeling jealousy or envy or whatever word we wanna use, I don't know about you, but for me, I first feel it in my body.

I feel a tightness in my chest. I feel a little bit rumbling in the stomach, right? Mm-hmm. And that, that desire to, to flee and run away, right? So I, I feel that, yeah. Often I start crying. Mm-hmm. That's my emotion. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's always crying. Mm-hmm. So what does it mean to even try and like, turn off some of the cognitive and actually just be with that experience?

Oof.

Moss: Yeah, I, I totally agree. Yeah. Right. No matter what word we're using.

Dr. Nicole: Right.

Moss: Um, like, I'm also hearing Yeah, hearing about like the, can we connect with our body and like, what's [00:55:00] going on for us? And also, like, as you were saying before, like what comes next, right? Like, am I just gonna notice that I'm feeling this thing, or I'm wanting, uh, gifts, you know, and I'm seeing, uh, a meta morgue getting a gift.

Mm-hmm. Right? Um, but I can't say anything. I can't say anything. I can't say anything. Right. As opposed to like, yeah. The, the understanding of, oh, I can ask for this. Right. Um, the, like what do you do as a result of Here, listen. Yeah. So I appreciate what you're sharing. Like no matter what words we use, sure.

It can be so important to fe to notice these things, to listen to them in our bodies, and then to be thinking about, well, what do I do with this information? Because there ends up being a lot more, uh, possibility than we might, we might necessarily realize. At first Totally. Or realize within, uh, certain paradigms, like within monogamy.

Dr. Nicole: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Growing up, I'd be so jealous of other women all the time. I think part of that is my social conditioning as a woman of like, we have to fight and compete for, I don't, I [00:56:00] don't even know what the prize of men. I don't, anyhow, right? Mm-hmm. But mm-hmm. So much jealousy towards other women who I thought were more beautiful or more intelligent and mm-hmm.

Part of that was the fact that I was gay and I didn't understand that at the time. So that's a huge chunk of that piece. Mm-hmm. But then the other piece of it is thinking that whatever they had, I didn't, whatever they were doing, I couldn't. Mm-hmm. And so being able, even before getting into non monogamy, to just get curious about that experience of what is it that I'm seeing someone else have that I presume I.

Don't, and hence why I'm, I'm having such a reaction or what they, um, currently are doing that I either doesn't align with my narrative, right? Because I've had a lot of judgment and

Moss: mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole: Whoa, let's go all the way back to purity culture. I was judging anybody who had sex outside of marriage. Like, let alone two people in a lifetime.

You slut right? Let alone two people in the same day, two people in the same room were like, I've had so much judgment [00:57:00] towards other people. Right? And so unpacking the ways that, that's also been a narrative thing too. Mm mm-hmm. Um, it is just, the more that I think that we can get language and understanding to this, the less of this complex ball of emotions of I'm too jealous.

I could never do this. Mm-hmm.

Moss: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that I'm, I'm definitely thinking about how we often kill the messenger, right? We, we, yeah. Oh, I'm feeling jealous. I'm feeling judgment. Therefore, you need to stop doing that thing, right? It see, like, because I don't like this messenger coming up and telling me the thing, pointing, shining the light of the things that I'm lacking in my life.

I don't like that. So rather than go and work on getting those things that I'm missing in my life, it makes sense that we might have an inclination to try to shut up the messenger, right? Mm-hmm. Um, and so why we end up, you know, maybe having an inclination to try to implement rules, right? Telling a person in a relationship with like, what they can or cannot do, right.

Uh, with other people [00:58:00] or, you know, or within our relationship. Mm-hmm. Um. And that, like, how that ends up not working because Yeah, because it does, even though you've quieted the messenger, you're still lacking the thing that the messenger was trying to point internal light on, right? Yes. Um, and so like yeah.

The, the like, yeah. I'm thinking about it rules as a thing that I'm opposed to like, as like a, I identify as a, a non-hierarchical mm-hmm. Uh, polyamory person. Um, and so I'm not interested in rules at all, and I see them, they're very different as agree, uh, than agreements. Yeah. Which are these ever changing understandings of what we can expect in our relationship in this moment.

Mm-hmm. Um, and yeah, it's just really, it's unfortunate that we, that people have such an inclination towards rules. Although it makes sense because of how those are just an inherent part of monogamy. Oftentimes, even if we're just sticking to the, like, you're only allowed to have sex with me. You're not allowed to have sex with other people, part of monogamy.

And not to say that monogamy is a monolith, but like yeah, there's [00:59:00] often a use of rules within monogamy and how they often don't actually do the thing they think they are. They don't accomplish what they're trying to accomplish. And so that's just really unfortunate that it's not even effective. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. But people are not interested or have a hard time, uh, with idea of trying something different, even if it actually might be more effective.

Dr. Nicole: I know. 'cause yeah, the set and setting of our narratives are pretty tough, but Yeah. Yeah. I mean, uhhuh, it's wild to me to put so many rules on your partner, and I also see the beauty of the commitment, right?

Like of choosing to be with one, like how that can also be really beautiful. Mm-hmm. But it is scary to me the amount of. Paradigm where that can get to where then eroticism dies. Like there's so much protection around it that it actually like, it's like, it's like a fire, right? When you, when you're trying to build it, and then you, you like put too much wood on top of it and then the fire goes out.

Mm-hmm. I'm like, well, you guys like you, [01:00:00] you told them that they can't have it with anybody else and this is the only space. And so you put all that wood in there trying to burn it, but damn, let them flirt with other people. Minimum folks. Let them watch porn. Let them like Jesus, you know, like, whoa. You know?

But everyone gets their own, their own journey with that. And again, if you've been in a paradigm where I, I will say for myself. If I would've married the man who gave me a promise ring at 18 and said that I was gonna have his kids in this Christian puritanical world, I probably could have had a very fulfilling sex life for the rest of my life.

Because in that paradigm, I wouldn't have studied sex, I wouldn't have done any of this. Mm-hmm. And so there would've been a level of, like a box that I would've existed in. Mm-hmm. And so when I, when you don't know what, what's outside of the box, like you can have so much fun in the box, I would've had so much fun probably having sex with him.

Mm-hmm. All the time. Mm-hmm. Feeling like God's at the center of our bed. Like how hot I'm doing this holy secret thing for him. Right. But now that I'm out of this box, I, [01:01:00] oh my. God like, mm-hmm. Now, now that the cat's out of the bag, I can't even fathom. So there's definitely a lot of grief. Let me just like, name that.

Mm-hmm. I've had a lot of grief. Like I've, I have a lot, a lot of grief for the ways that, like, I used to just be touched and I, I, I, I am now touched and so present is hot, but there is ways where I used to be touched and so turned on because I was so repressed and anything was electric. Mm-hmm. And I wouldn't trade anything in my life to go back to that space because that space also involved a level of inability to name my desires, inability to really enact consent.

'cause I mm-hmm. Wasn't taught anything. So like, I wouldn't go back there, but, wow, what a grief to get outside of the box and then have to relearn eroticism that isn't just in the taboo and the nose and the wrong. So there's been such a journey to that arc as well. And so I just, there's so much joy that we can have in the box outside of the box, the, you know mm-hmm.

The blue, the red pill of the matrix, all of these metaphors, right? Mm-hmm. And I, I guess I just. [01:02:00] I try to come back from the space of always talking about my own journey rather than other people's. 'cause everyone's gonna have their own, their own trip with it all right?

Moss: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. As you were talking, I was reminded of a, an interview I was listening to recently with, uh, ALA.

Are you familiar with, uh mm-hmm. Ala like a researcher who does a lot like all these surveys related to sexuality and kink and that kind of thing. Cool. Uh, and in, in the episode she was talking about, uh, the meaning that we assigned to our experiences and she shared about, like, she talks about her like dramatic, uh, upbringing in a, in a Christian CA very seclusive, secluded, uh, Christian community.

And how, like within that context, um, she didn't ex like see her experience as traumatic, right? Or like, she didn't see it like in the same kind of way because it was what she knew. Yes. Um, but it was only out when she came. Out of that community and other people were like, whoa. Like that was abuse that you experienced where Yeah.

Her perspective of what had happened to her changed. Sure. I guess so. I'm, I'm reminded of that in terms of what you were sharing about Totally, totally. Like [01:03:00] within the box there, like you're able to enjoy like there Yeah. There's like really wonderful magical parts of that box. And that while you're not trying to go back there, because you see all of the, the limitations or the drawbacks or the, the, the harms of being in the box.

Um, there is grief, there is a loss. Right? Yeah. There is like, there are things that that come from. That shift towards the unexpanded view of yourself or expanded view of sexuality or Right. And it's, it's worthwhile to make space for that.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Moss: Um,

Dr. Nicole: absolutely.

Moss: To make space for that grief and, and loss. Um, I'm also reminded of, uh, uh, Jessica Fern and David and their book Poly Wise.

Yeah. You know, they have, they came on the podcast. Nice. Okay. Uh, if only I had known that I could have like, you know, showed you that I was a really cool fan.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I, no, no, no. It's not released yet. So in your defense, you don't know that yet. Ah, aha. So you, you dunno that, take that, take that.

Moss: Um, yeah, but I'm thinking about, about poly wise and which actually I, right here 'cause I'm using it with a, a couple that I'm working with [01:04:00] right now.

Oh yeah. Yeah, they have a whole, you know, chat. Like they're talking about that paradigm, those paradigm shifts, and how there's all these things that come from a shift in paradigm that it's worthwhile to make space for.

Dr. Nicole: Totally. Yeah, absolutely. And I could not go back to the box like you're saying. Once you look back at the box, you're like, that was kind of traumatic in that box.

I was condemning homosexuals and later found out that I'm super gay, right? Mm-hmm. Like this is, I could not go back to that box. And then I think that that's where, ooh, my current life or myself, when I look back at the box of monogamy, for me, the economy of that space is really tricky. Because when I was definitely, when I was Christian, you're not supposed to watch porn.

You're not supposed to masturbate by yourself. So we're talking about desires being only fulfilled from one person, really complicated, and even in the world of porn and [01:05:00] other stuff. To feel like I had to fulfill my theoretical husband in this paradigm, or even my theoretical wife in that paradigm and just all like to fulfill that, the economy of that situation for me.

Puts a level of pressure that makes me radically uncomfortable not being in that box anymore because mm-hmm. I just felt so much responsibility, you know? Mm-hmm. If I didn't wanna have, say I wanted to be celibate for months, you know, whatever, like

Moss: mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole: That decision is now also taking away sexual gratification for my, whoa.

Like I just, oh my God. Mm-hmm. Like when I, where I am at right now, and I say this very clearly whenever I say it is for myself, when I look back, I feel a level of tenseness in my body about the economy of a dyadic relationship where you can only have that need met by one person. Mm-hmm.

Moss: Mm-hmm.[01:06:00] 

Hmm. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I'm curious. Uh, it is, it is interesting to me because now I'm thinking about. I'm curious about your use of the word economy. I know, I know because I, what comes to, well, no, but what comes to mind for me is that when I'm talking to people, like one of those, like, you know, I mentioned before, like the, like initial conversations that I have over and over with people.

Yeah. Um, that, like, part of that in terms of like the elevator pitch I give for non monogamy. Sure. Part of like the relationship or understanding of love is the like difference between like a starvation economy Sure. Of love, like there's not enough as, as opposed to an abundance economy. Yes. Um, of love and what you were just sharing kind of.

It is a different take on this starvation economy Yes. Phrase, right? Of like the starvation of, of like, you, I only have this one person to get, I'm not, there's not enough opportunity to connect with people because there's this only, there's this one person that I'm allowed to do that with, right? Mm-hmm.

And I'm hearing about how on the other side of that, there's the pressure [01:07:00] from the other person, oh, I gotta fulfill this person's needs. If they're not, especially if they're not allowed to not, not only like connect with other people in that way, but they're not allowed to look at porn. They're not allowed to masturbate.

They're not right. Like, like that. I hear that. Like that creates like a big pressure. So, yeah. I, I guess I'm just thinking about that too, that like a different kind of totally different perspective on the concept of starvation economy within Nomina. Yeah. Or within relationship relating with With human, yeah.

Related.

Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah. I love that difference between the starvation and abundance economy. I think that that is also why jealousy is such a prominent experience because. Like particularly in the paradigm of emotional cheating being a thing, which again, what is that? Are you not emotionally connected to your siblings, your parents, that minimum like y'all.

Okay? But in that world where you are so forbidden from even emotionally connecting from anybody, we have now created an economy where you need connection. As a human being, you need connection [01:08:00] and you are only getting it from one person, right? Mm-hmm. And so, yeah, similarly we're talking about sexuality and eroticism and, and I guess I like to use the word eroticism as more expansive, right?

Because not everyone needs sex, but everyone needs erotic connection of play. Mm-hmm. And being in your body and having a good time. Mm-hmm. So if we're talking about eroticism and love being parts of our needs, when Yeah, you can only get that met from one person. Mm-hmm. So you're telling me I'm gonna share my one source of water in a desert?

Hell no. There's no world in which I'm gonna share my water with anybody else because that's my only water source. You know, Uhhuh. Yo, that makes sense. You're right. You're right. Yeah. And so I think that that was one of the biggest things for me in my own journey of like processing jealousy was what it meant to have multiple partnerships where I'm getting all of this love from like literally so much around me that I've never been loved [01:09:00] this capacity before.

It feels radically uncomfortable with so much love, but like what kind of love that made it so much easier to be like, oh yeah, my partner's going on a date with somebody else. Look at this whole water source, this big, luscious, tropical world that I live in compared to the, mm-hmm. That's my only one person.

I would never share that with anybody. Uhhuh. Those are very different economies, and I think that's also a part of jealousy that needs to be talked about.

Moss: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'm, I, you know, I'm thinking now about cheating, emotional cheating and cheating in general. And I think something that is often missed is the, considering maybe the agreement we made doesn't make sense, right?

Maybe that rule doesn't make sense. Maybe it's unreasonable to expect, uh, my partner to not have emotional connections with other people. And yes, that's connected to, tied to jealousy, as you were saying. As you're talking about like, if I see you connecting with another person as a threat to my ability to connect with you, and you're [01:10:00] my only source of that kind of connection, then I am gonna be much more hostile to the idea, right.

And. Thinking about and considering when maybe the agreement isn't actually appropriate. Right. Maybe it doesn't actually accomp, maybe the rule doesn't accomplish what I think it's gonna accomplish. Yeah. Maybe I shouldn't agree to this thing in the first place. Maybe the problem really was that I said, yes, I'm going to agree to this thing.

Right. And I understand that inclination to want to say, okay, I'm gonna agree with this thing, even though it's really not working, really doesn't feel good for me because this relationship is more important, um, to me than this thing that I'm giving up or this thing that I'm agreeing not to do or whatever.

Mm-hmm. The desire to say, okay, this relationship is more important than what's than myself,

Dr. Nicole: which is making me think of some of the, uh. The short manifesto on relationship anarchy. I, I'm not getting the words exactly correct, but the idea of mm-hmm. Like freely coming together to choose to be, like, trying to not lose yourself in compromises, [01:11:00] of course, making commitments, but also to not lose yourself in that.

And I think mm-hmm. Yeah. When I'm hearing you talk about these sorts of commitments and emotional infidelity and stuff, I mean, I think we can even rewind even deeper to the fact that a lot of people don't make any level of conversation about what emotional cheating is to them. Right. Again, I don't just, I don't agree with that frame.

Emotional cheating. Mm-hmm. But at least let's even bump it up to like sexual fidelity. Where do you draw that line? Uhhuh? Can you snuggle with someone? Can you kiss someone? Can you, I mean, some people kiss their family, right. You know, like in different ways. Mm-hmm. Of course. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right? Where do you draw that line?

So many people don't even talk about it. So that we can start there, let alone Yeah, of course you can cheat and you can violate consent in non-monogamy. Right? That's always a question people have. Mm-hmm. Which is a mind boggling question. Can you cheat in non-monogamy? Yes, you can. Mm-hmm. There's so many different ways.

I've got a fluid agreement with you. If you would go and have sex with someone else without a condom, you were [01:12:00] cheating on me. We made a commitment, right? Mm-hmm. Um, and just, yeah, the different ways that I think that you had talked, uh, I don't know. This is something I thought about, I wanted to say earlier.

The difference between need and desires.

Moss: Hmm.

Dr. Nicole: We all have a need for security. How we get that is gonna be different based on our own journey. Mm-hmm. Our own narratives, our own depth of experience with Nonni because mm-hmm. I, I currently run in my, my life of my currently four people that I'm exploring sexual dynamics with.

And we've all talked about what that looks like and the safety of all of that, and all the different ways, um, that we, we run in this world. And I remember someone was talking to me and I kind of, it was just like an initial conversation with the intent of dating and the sexual capacity and checking in about what they would prefer in dynamics and their need for security was manifested as a desire.

So [01:13:00] I respect the need, but their desire to meet that need was, you would need to text me before you do anything else sexually with someone else. I wanna be very clear that is not how I run in the paradigms of my other partners. Mm-hmm. Of course we have really caveated that because in our world and in my request is that if we're doing that with close friends, coworkers, people in our inner circle, I think it's really important in my world to have some level of conversation before that happens.

But beyond that, no, you don't have to text me. You're out at the bar having a good time. You're out at a wedding having a good time. Go tell me about it afterwards. Use protection and whatever that means for us. Right. So, mm-hmm. So their des, this person that I was connecting with, their desire for a need of security is not compatible with the way that I'm living my life.

Mm-hmm. So I respect their need. I'm going to say no to your desire. Mm-hmm.

Moss: Yeah. And it sounds like in that case, the, the, there's a [01:14:00] desire to get your permission. Text is the texting is to get a permission. So it, it sounds like it a bit like a rule, like, uh, you need to make sure to get my permission. So it makes sense that, like, for you, that's not gonna work for you even, and you can respect, it's not to say that you're not willing to help somebody feel safe or secure.

Right. Right. But that, and, and that you're not willing, you're not willing to agree to ask for permission. Right. Or to text them before you connect with somebody. No. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I guess I'm thinking about how it would make sense if you were to then go and have sex with somebody that it, that it would be appropriate for you too.

Tell that person before you have sex with them next, so that they can make a decision about their sexual, their sexual health. Right. Totally. So like they, but that's not a, you need to text me before you ha this happens. Yes.

Dr. Nicole: Right.

Moss: On my timeline with my condition or whatever. Yes. Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: Very different worlds.

Absolutely.

Moss: I also, you know, I appreciate you sharing that and I, going back to what you were saying before, um, I [01:15:00] wanna just acknowledge that you said that people don't like, ask about or talk about what is emotional cheating or what is cheating in general. Yeah. And I just want to acknowledge that within the context of monogamy, we don't, people don't have to do that.

Right. You don't have to have that conversation. And so it's understandable that many people, um, who are not familiar with the, the need to have that kind of conversation, don't think to have it when they enter a monogamy, right? Yeah. With so many things. Non-monogamy provides this very convenient and easy structure that you can kind of adhere to.

Mm-hmm. And not have to worry about all of these conversations. And yeah. I guess I just want to like emphasize like an understanding compassion for people who step into non-monogamy and don't think to talk about, well what does cheating mean for you? Sure. What does that look like for you? 'cause Yeah, because like of course, like even within monogamy, people might have disagreements about what cheating includes.

Totally. Right. Is porn cheating? Is masturbation cheating? Right? Is thinking about somebody else being attracted to somebody else cheating, right. Like right. [01:16:00] Like, those are all things that like, there might be disagreement about, but. As you were saying, like when it comes down to like the sexual fidelity, there's a clear, we're not going to have sex with other people, right?

Mm-hmm. And so at the bottom line that there isn't a need to have that kind of conversation. Yeah. I think that's just like something that's so difficult for, in terms of non-monogamy is there are so many conversations like that that we don't think to have, we don't know what we need to have. Yeah. Um, and oftentimes we find out when we've, when a negative thing happens, when something difficult comes as a result of not having that conversation.

Right. Right. For us or for other people. I don't realize that I need to have a conversation about what cheating is until I hear from somebody that I'm in a relationship with, that they've done something that I. See us cheating. And I, I'm saying that from a theoretical perspective, not like a MOS thinks that they're cheating kind of thing, but like Right.

It's, so, yeah, I guess I'm just thinking about Totally.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Moss: Um, how individual this all is. Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Let's get talking folks. Let's get talking. And it's so hot to be on the same page. It's so hot to be like, wow, we are [01:17:00] co-creating a narrative. And of course, we'll never be on the same page because our own narratives and existentially we're locked in our own perspective, but wow, is it hot to get close to the same page and feel like we're building something together that has clarity?

And so I wish people could see the, the power and the joy of having more of these conversations, of getting that clarity, that clarity. Wow. Do you know what level of security is needed to navigate jealousy in all this? I'm running at some high levels of security with these people, because otherwise I'd be losing my mind.

Like, Uhhuh, there's so much security we have built here. Mm-hmm. And just so beautiful. And I wish that people could see that world and could get into the joy of really crafting that narrative with the people that they love around them. And I, I really believe in that world. I do. I know it is messy. I know it is complex, but man, is it a beautiful world, you know, when you're, when you're in it.

Mm-hmm.

Moss: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It really [01:18:00] is. Yeah. It takes a lot to build, it takes a lot of energy. Right. I wouldn't recommend somebody to explore a non-monogamy if they're not interested in having countless conversations and really dedicating time and energy to like figuring this all out and building that security, uh, in our relationships.

And as you're experiencing, there's so much wonderful. Uh, we can, yeah. We can really reach, uh, that rock climbing mountaintop, uh, of our relationships. Um, once we have done the hard work of building those foundations, of building that security, of having those conversations. Yeah. Of practicing easier mountains.

Yeah. Of, of learning new techniques, of really challenging ourself to find this, this, uh, rock wall, um, that is new to us. And then basking in the, the sunset at the top. Absolutely. The view of the sunset at the top.

Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Yes. I really appreciate you running with the metaphors that are like [01:19:00] very dear and close to my heart for sure.

Hmm. Yeah. Well, it's been such a joy to have you on the podcast, and I'm gonna take a deep breath with you as we come to the end of our time.

So I always like to check in and see if there's anything else that you wanna share with the listeners. Otherwise I can guide us towards our closing question.

Moss: Hmm. I don't think so. Yeah. I, I'm just grateful for this conversation and I appreciate the opportunity to, to come on because I definitely, uh, yeah.

Uh, I'm just some dude who's doing it, who's working as a therapist and yeah, like, uh, you know, yeah. I just thank you for the opportunity. Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: It's a joy to have you in the space and get to talk to you. I feel, I feel very seen in a lot of the different things I was talking about, and so there's so much gratitude to be able to have this conversation with you too.

And there's a level of me having to cap it because I, I have never done a four hour [01:20:00] conversation, but I'm always like, I don't do it. I don't, our modern goldfish brains like an hour and a half is already way too much for folks, you know? So I'm like, okay, I could probably talk to this person for hours, but I'll, I'll, I'll hit some wrap up point.

You know, there's no end to these conversations, which is a joy to hope that there'll be, uh, many more conversations in this space throughout my lifetime. So I really appreciate you joining me today to do that. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well then the closing question that I ask every guest on the show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

Moss: One thing that I wish people knew was more normal was the desire to accept ourselves and be accepted by others by trying to fit into the made up box that is quote unquote normal.

Dr. Nicole: Mm. An anarchist. A true anarchist. Let's deconstruct the box.

Moss: Yes, yes, exactly.

Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Yes. A creating space [01:21:00] then for you to, to live outside of the box, to be yourself to contain multiplicity.

Moss: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. There's no such thing as normal.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely.

Moss: Mm.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I was thinking when you were talking about IFS, just the different parts, like I think that. I would love for people to get more comfortable with the different parts of ourselves that exist up in there and hold space for all of them.

And often one of the ones that I've like in this journey particularly thought about is, is my like non-monogamous parts and my monogamous parts, or like my tender inner child parts and my brave liberatory, like rebel spirit parts, you know? Mm-hmm. And the ways that all of those are often having something to say and then you can feel not normal by having all of least one part of me wants to do this, another part of me doesn't, I feel like I'm pulled and so that's normal.

Mm-hmm. As normal, as normal can be without inherently [01:22:00] deconstructing the box of what that means.

Moss: It's okay. We, we, you can put things in that box. Yeah. As long as Yeah. As long as we don't, my, my, my invitation is to Yeah. Be, be, have that awareness of the box just as you wanted to have the awareness of the box you lived in.

Right. Uh, in your life. Uh, in, in, in your past. That like Yeah. The box that you were in, in monogamy or the box you were in before experiencing psychedelics. Right, right. Just knowing the box is there can be helpful. Yes. Even if we continue to utilize the box. Absolutely.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. It's been so fun to have you and I wanna take a moment to invite you.

Where can people connect with you and all of the work that you're doing, and how can they find you?

Moss: There are a few places to find me at Mossy Amus on Instagram, and that's my newly minted therapist Instagram. Cool. And if you want to see the research papers that I'm an author for, you can find those listed on my LinkedIn page.

Dr. Nicole: Perfect. I'll have all of that linked in the show notes below. So thank [01:23:00] you again for joining us today.

Moss: Thank you for having me. Yeah, so grateful for, yeah. Yeah. See

Dr. Nicole: if you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast, and head on over to modern anarchy podcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode.

I wanna thank you for tuning in, and I will see you all next week.