225. Relationship Anarchist: Chrisalis

Dr. Nicole: [00:00:00] Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Chrysalis join us for another relationship anarchy research conversation. Together we talk about balancing the responsibility of our interconnectedness. The importance of friendship and the power of presence. Hello, dear listener and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday.

My name is Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in [00:01:00] psychedelic integration therapy, and I am also the founder of the Pleasure Practice supporting Individuals and Crafting. Yes, fat, cat, expansive sex lives and intimate relationships. Dear listener, fat Cat, you wanna say hello to everybody?

Yeah. That's my cat everyone. Hi. Uh, I am so excited to be bringing you this episode today. Every Relationship Anarchy episode is so special to me. It's such a joy to be continuing my research. It's such a joy that one of you with dear listeners. Trust me to come onto the show and to share your wisdom with the practice.

And each conversation I feel, changes me and expands and I see new perspective. And I get to hear so much feedback from all of you [00:02:00] listeners who are growing with the podcast too. And find each episode to be giving life and form to your own practice of relationship anarchy. And it's a reminder that there are so many of us.

Moving through the world who are challenging the status quo of relationships, who are doing the best we can to really unlearn all of the unconscious power structures that are impacting our ability to love. And dear listener, please know that the door is always open for you. If you wanna come onto the show and share your voice, share your practice of relationship anarchy, all of the details are linked in the show notes below.

And the series is truly made by listeners like you who take up the call, who know how important relationship anarchy is, and how much we need more free educational resources like this [00:03:00] out in the world. So yeah, the door is open and I look forward to speaking to you when the timing is right.

Alright, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and resources@modernanarchypodcast.com, linked in the show notes below. And I wanna say the biggest thank you to all my Patreon supporters, you are supporting the long-term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content free and accessible for all people.

So thank you. If you wanna join the Patreon community, get exclusive access into my research and personal exploration, and you can add on over to patreon.com/modern anarchy, also linked in the show notes below. And with that dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my [00:04:00] love and let's tune in to today's episode.

The first question that I ask every guest on the show is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

Chrisalis: Um, I've had some really pretentious labels that I've given myself for either blurbs on like gig events or, uh, dating profile bios. Mm-hmm. Sure. A label that I really like just now is transcendental Anarchist.

Dr. Nicole: Ooh. Okay. Yeah. Should we get into that? Start there?

Chrisalis: Yeah. It can do.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Tell me, what does that label mean to you?

Chrisalis: Um, so transcendental anarchism was my way of bringing together all of the different format or like forms of anarchism or all the different spheres that anarchism can exist within. And the transcendental part [00:05:00] is sort.

Like, I like to think it sort of like elevates into more of a, a spiritual type Sure. Holistic approach. Um, 'cause I consider myself a relationship anarchist. I consider myself a political anarchist. I was kind of batting around the, the phrase anarchical spiritual and to Sure. Define my sort of spiritual beliefs as well.

Sure. But I feel there's maybe an element of Yeah. Holistic anarchism where it's across all the spheres, which I think does separate a bit from when it's just political anarchism or just relationship anarchism. I think it all, it's all tied together. Mm-hmm. A lot. And I feel when you do bring in these different aspects of life into it, it does elevate in some way.

It is kind of transcending a lot of the, the smaller concerns and arguments and. Disagreements [00:06:00] and differences, um mm-hmm. That are maybe present in the, the smaller forms of anarchism.

Dr. Nicole: Sure. Yeah. So I'm sure we're gonna get into all of that in our conversation today. And yeah, it's like where do you draw that line of what is relationship anarchy versus what is not relationship anarchy?

I think that's a pretty deep question depending on how nerdy we wanna get about it, because mm-hmm. At the end of the day, it's all relationships, right? Like your relationship to spirituality, your relationship to the divine, right? And so it's like where do we draw that line of what it is versus is isn't.

I mean, I can get nerdy on that. People have talked about relationships Yeah. To the planet, to their gender, to other people, right? So political systems, right? So it all starts to come together. So I'd be curious for you, how do you define relationship anarchy?

Chrisalis: Relationship anarchy is bringing the principles of anarchism into the relational sphere, um, where it has to do with interpersonal relationships.

And I [00:07:00] think it's one really fundamental aspect of it is the kind of deconstruction of unjust hierarchies while still understanding that moment to moment. There is just natural hierarchies that arise, but to be able to be dynamic with that. Mm-hmm. Um, and to understand that they're there so then they can kind of be chosen rather than just accepted as the way that it is.

Mm-hmm. Um, the one thing that really pulled me towards relationship anarchism when I first heard about it, other than I was already, um, very into just anything that has the word anarchism in it, of course. Um, or anarchy. I was the, the idea of not putting romantic relationships above friendships 'cause especially for me.

The romantic part of romantic relationships is nice. Yeah. But the real substance of it, for me has always been the, the friendship.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Chrisalis: And the [00:08:00] best relationships I've had, like the best romantic relationships I've had, have always had that fundamental friendship and beforehand and then throughout as well, where day to day, hanging out, going on adventures, playing music together, juggling together.

Mm-hmm. Um, instead of having the baseline as romance and cuddling. And kissing and sex.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Um,

Chrisalis: so for me, relationship anarchy, it wasn't about. Bringing down the importance of romance. Sure. It was about elevating the importance of friendships.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. So beautiful. And I feel like with that frame shift right to your life, you often feel such a big like opening of the chest to all the different forms of intimacy that exist in your world.

Right? It's not just looking at one person or even in a poly framework, two people or three people, or wherever you hit your saturation with that. It's like, oh wow, I have all of these [00:09:00] relationships and these are all beautiful people that I'm connected to in different ways and different proximities, right?

And so you start to feel that level of intentionality and love across your whole community, which I feel like is very transformative.

Chrisalis: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. I, I think it, it does come from a love of community. Yeah. Um, and I think it always felt. Sort of instinctual when I'd heard about relationship anarchy.

And then I, I read, well, I read half of the, the book relationship anarchy. Sure. Um, and I, I will read the other half. I stop getting distracted.

Dr. Nicole: Amazing. Well, there's an episode with him coming out. It will be before your episode. Yeah. So you can always get the, the in-person download over here too. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Chrisalis: Oh, it was such a, a beautiful, um, book to read and it's so validating.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Chrisalis: Um, but the, the thing that I hadn't really thought about before with relationship [00:10:00] anarchy was the, the mutual aid and community building aspect of it. Sure. Which it's such a fundamental part of political anarchism that. Why wouldn't it be, uh, with relationship anarchy as well.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. I'd love to hear more about how you see mutual aid playing out in your relationships and your practice.

Chrisalis: Yeah, big question. It is a big question.

Dr. Nicole: I think it's tied to your earlier discussion of non hierarchy and all that sort of stuff, so, so we're gonna deep dive into it.

Chrisalis: Yeah, let's do it. Um, the mutual aid side of relationship anarchy, for me, I think part of it has been the sensitivity that has to come from working within a framework where there isn't those assumed hierarchies. Like within monogamy and within polyamory there's very often [00:11:00] agreements and vitos and primary partners and things like that, and those things are built.

Or they exist. I mean, they potentially contribute to as well very real human emotions like jealousy and insecurity and um, favoritism and uh, things like that. And within, like, I've seen it a lot in kinda my local polyamorous community especially, is that when people are technically allowed to do stuff, they often do it with less sensitivity.

Mm-hmm. Because they're like, well, I'm allowed to, it's within the agreement. Mm-hmm. Um, whereas when you do remove those guardrails of things that you're allowed to do and things that you're not allowed to do, and all of the discussions that come from potentially like having to change those rules as the feelings change, it's about doing what feels like is best for the [00:12:00] community and like the extended community yourself, your friends, your.

Partners or however you kinda refer to them, their people, their home dynamics. Yeah. So bringing empathy and Yeah. Um, sensitivity into those interactions while still ideally being true to yourself and the things that you're choosing for yourself.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chrisalis: And then also, like from a less relationshipy aspect, but just the help, help and support and holding space for people and understanding that we are human and we have these emotions that can be really, really all consuming and they're not, they're rarely rational.

Um, and being able to sit in that with people. Mm-hmm. Um. [00:13:00] Yeah,

Dr. Nicole: yeah, absolutely. The personal is the political, right? So all of these interactions we're having in our personal lives directly contribute to the political change that we hope for in this world. And so, yeah, slowing down to be present with the people around us and to care and to show up for them, it's such a delicate dance between freedom and autonomy and community care, right?

And those two things can often rub up against each other in expansion as you're doing this sort of relating, right? Like, I wanna go do this, but then it might be, um, causing really deep and difficult emotions for another person, right? Um, jealousy being one of them. Uh, grief, other stuff like that, right?

And so like how do you navigate that level of, uh, following your pleasure, following your autonomy, while balancing that with. Deep care for your community. There's no easy answer for that one. It feels like a very delicate case by case situation, but what does feel clear to me is, is finding the pleasure in showing up for yourself and showing up for other [00:14:00] people.

It's not just always following what you want, what you need, all it's wow, like finding pleasure in giving, caring to the people that are around you. I also think it's really interesting. When I first started practicing relationship anarchy, this concept of non hierarchy made so much sense to me, right?

People shouldn't have control over other people with veto powers, right? It's hurtful, these other things. Uh, so it made so much sense to me when I was reading the books and sitting with it. And then as I was going through my practice, I kept thinking, great, okay, I have all these lovers around me, non hierarchy, so I need to split my time.

I need to split my energy, I need to divide it all equally. And as I got further into that, I was like, wait a second. So if I have, you know, like four or five, you know, it's like, oh, 25% for the four, oh, only 25%. Shoot. Okay, wait, I have five, six. Okay, how do I do the math? It's like, wait a second. Okay. So we can't just say that it's all gonna be equal across the board.

That's [00:15:00] not what non-hierarchical means, because at the end of the day, we're on a planet with what, 8 billion people. No matter how you look at that situation, there's going to be some level of hierarchy slash stratification of at minimum intimacy and proximity. I'm not close to 8 billion people. Right. Um, and so there's gonna be some stratification for that.

I, I remember, uh, I was talking to someone about relationship anarchy and I was talking about this dungeon scene that I wanted to do and I was like, oh, okay. I have a couple of close people I'd love to like play with me. And then a couple other ones that I'd have watched and they're like, that sounds like hierarchy.

And I was like, uh, if that's what hierarchy is. Absolutely. Yes. Like I have some people I feel very comfortable with touching my body and other people I'm not. Right. And it's like, it was interesting to have someone kinda like throw that at me like, wow, sounds like you're practicing. Hierarchy is like, I'm not.

Open to, you know, so it's really interesting. I think this word is very complex and, um, when we're on the internet and we're trying to find language for it, [00:16:00] you can see people start to go back and forth and be a little vitriolic about it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Uhhuh Uhhuh. Yeah.

Chrisalis: I completely agree. That was something that also appealed to me about relationship anarchy, was just hearing a sort of example of it.

It's like you've got one friend that you live with and you share bed with, but you don't necessarily have sex with 'em, and you've got one friend that you have lots of kinky sex with, and you've got another friend that you love going on adventures with and holding hands with and kissing, but nothing else.

And yeah, I just, yeah, it, it fits the weirdness of humanity so well. Mm-hmm. Um, just like political anarchism as well, it's mm-hmm. It allows for our nature and our preferences and. Lets it change as well.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And what a practice it is to deconstruct that within our unconscious, [00:17:00] truly like deep within our unconscious, these desires that we have are often so formed by the culture that we live in.

I don't even know if I wanna say often as much as they are formed by the cultures that we live in. So this act of deconstructing things like the relationship escalator. Wow. Right. Trying to, if the listener, if you're not familiar with it, this concept that you go from, uh, meeting someone to dating, to exclusively dating, to living together, to having kids to dying together.

Right. That's the typical rom-com arc. Um, and I always talk about the intimacy escalator as another piece of that too, right? That, um, attraction goes from attraction to touching, to kissing, to quote unquote foreplay, to quote unquote, penetration right to orgasm as being like the form of intimacy, right?

Compared to just burning that whole thing down the ground and say, maybe the most intimate thing I could do is play a board game with someone. Or maybe the most intimate thing I could do would be just to do oral [00:18:00] and nothing else, right? So these different scripts that we have that are so deep within our unconscious.

I'm curious for you what that journey has been like. 'cause for me it's, it's like a never ending process where I'm just like, wow. Cool. Another thing behind that curtain. Great. Over there, another thing. Cool. You know, it's like a very humbling journey that you go down.

Chrisalis: Absolutely. Yeah. I have definitely a, a tendency to escalate.

Sure. Like an escalator. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, around the same time that I started thinking of myself as polyamorous before I'd heard about relationship anarchy mm-hmm. It was about the same time that I also realized I was trans. Sure. Um, and started kind of moving into transition. And at that point I just kinda stopped understanding how to interact with people romantically.

Mm-hmm. Like the script that I'd been able to follow as a guy. Um, I started having [00:19:00] people sometimes. Treating me in that way. And it didn't, I didn't always feel comfortable with it. And then it just got really, really in my head, um, 'cause as well, a lot of my women and BIM friends would started opening up to me as I started kind of, especially once I started on estrogen.

Um, and I just did feel more empathy. Mm-hmm. And people started opening up to me and I was like, oh shit. I don't know how to approach people. I don't know how to move towards being intimate with people. So, mm-hmm. For years, I barely had any relationships. Mm-hmm. So polyamory and relationship anarchy were such theoretical, intellectual things in my mind.

And it meant that the few little bits and pieces of intimacy, um, that I were, that I was finding outside of my kind of strictly platonic friendships. Mm-hmm. Um, I think I, I hadn't really. [00:20:00] Thought about the complexities of human emotions. And I'd kinda gone into like relat, I, I was describing myself as relationship anarchist by that time, but I didn't really think about, um, it was just like, no rules.

Mm. That was kind of, I was like, well, I'm a relationship anarchist. I've told you this, so me doing this, like, you can't get mad at me. 'cause I didn't say I wasn't gonna do it. Sure. And it meant that a lot of people that I connected with went off of me, or if things just burned out really quickly because I wasn't really giving them that care.

Dr. Nicole: Totally. Yeah.

Chrisalis: Yeah. And having that sensitivity. So for years that was kind of my experience. If it was mainly single and then when people did show a romantic or sexual interest in me, I would either like hurt them by seeing other people. Because it was always at the same time, I'd have like nobody for [00:21:00] months and then all of a sudden, two people that I was really into would show up and

Dr. Nicole: Oh, the universe.

Chrisalis: Yeah. But, uh, it's almost better that that happened because if there was the times that there was just one person that I met, I was like. You are the one like, sure. Let's just merge. Sure.

Dr. Nicole: I I've been there. I know that. I know that for sure. For sure.

Chrisalis: Because it feels good to kind of like slip into that monogamous fairytale fantasy, a security, even if, oh my God, can I tell that it's not real?

There's all the red flags. You're like, right. It feels so good, and let's just deal with the consequences later.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Years of social conditioning Right. Slipped straight back into that. And it's like, I found the security and it's forever. Oh my God. Like, yes. Right. And so I, yeah, I've, I've definitely gone down that path.

Uh, and once, uh, for me, like building enough stable connections where I'm like, oh, that's not even possible at this point. Like, I have so many good stable, like that's, so, I'm so grateful [00:22:00] that that has transitioned and that that's not a slippery slope that I seem to be walking down. But I definitely resonate with that journey.

And yeah, so much of that, um, aspect of. We didn't agree to. This is an important discussion, right? Because there are often so many expectations that are unstated, right? Like, uh, that we're gonna be together forever, that we are the relationship escalator again, right? The intimacy escalator that, and so a lot of that is assumed and most people don't have a conversation about it.

So it makes sense that we would have this, Hey, uh, we didn't agree to this. Now the reality is there's an infinite, unlimited amount of things that we couldn't all possibly define line by line in human relationships, right? Like, Hey, I never agreed to text you back on your birthday. Hey, I never agreed. I'd like there is an infinite capacity of things that are almost assumed out of, I think necessity because of humanness, right?

Like, [00:23:00] I'm going to assume that you are not going to yell at to me. Okay. I'm gonna assume that you're not going to hit me. Right? And there's no world in which someone could hit me and then be like, Hey, well we didn't make that assumption. Right. Uh, and so it's like there's that really fine dance between deconstructing the, uh, assumptions of culture and then still maintaining genuine care for your community Right.

And showing up for them. And so I'm hearing you now as you're like, you know, many years down into your practice, reflecting back and having some wisdom. I'm, I'm curious, what would you say to your younger self now with like the consciousness that you do have if you were to paint back to that time in your

life?

Chrisalis: I think it would be to focus on the friendship. Mm. Um, and if it's someone that I wouldn't choose to be friends with. Yeah, yeah. Don't be intimate with them. Yes. Because I, I dunno, I've, I've tried that and it's never been satisfying.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Chrisalis: [00:24:00] Um, so I think like I, if it was after the point where I, I learned to juggle my, my advice would be just like, focus on the juggling.

Mm. Just play with them and, mm-hmm. 'cause it's, since that has become my priority, that so much pressure to escalate relationships with people that I'm attracted to has disappeared. It's obviously lovely when there is those moments when we're looking at each other and we're like, Hey, you look hot. Or, I'm feeling kind of really.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Chrisalis: Affectionate or intimate right now. Yeah. And then kinda moving towards each other. But before I realized that it was friendship that I appreciated the most, my priority was getting as close to people as possible. And it was like, I want, I love feeling close to people and I love getting closer. So let's get I close.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, totally.

Chrisalis: But then the, my friendships are my closest relationships and while I'm with partners, I've [00:25:00] been maybe more physically close to, yeah. And there's often been more of a, a distance when I've been sitting, cuddling with them, watching tv 'cause we couldn't agree on what else we wanted to do.

Mm-hmm. And then wishing I was out with my friends, but then also kinda being really cozy in the cuddle and,

Dr. Nicole: yeah.

Chrisalis: So, yeah, friendships feels like the most important thing for me now. Mm-hmm. And I wish it had been for me back then. Mm-hmm. But at the same time, I'm really glad I've had all the experiences that I have.

Right. And that I've made the mistakes that I have. Yes. And hopefully I've not hurt anyone too much that they didn't kinda. Bounce back from it stronger.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I hear you In the nuance of that, those learning lessons and then also, yeah, taking the accountability and for the care for those people and so yeah, I love the raising of relational standards.

You know, for me, my, my standards between [00:26:00] someone that I have sex with and that I am connected to platonically are the same. Right. Like the same standards of levels of emotional insight and care and those sorts of pieces. Right. And so I love having, like, why yeah, why would I be intimate with someone that I couldn't possibly fathom having a friendship with unless, you know, pick up play and someone's enjoying the, the play and the one offness of that, but like, trying to build intimate relationships of longevity, it's like, oh, like, I mean, of course I would want to have the same standards across the board for all of those relationships.

And so it's felt so nice to have that be consistent. Like, it's not like the, the point isn't about sexuality, it's like about connecting emotionally with the other human beings. And so therefore there's the same standards applied, uh, applied across all of those different relationships. And so we're kind of hitting on it here, and I'm, I'm gonna transition us to the second question, which is, how do you practice relationship anarchy?

We're definitely hitting on some of these nitty gritty pieces of it, [00:27:00] but for you, how would you describe the way you practice it?

Chrisalis: I think one fundamental aspect of how I practice it is attempting to bring complete presence.

Dr. Nicole: Mm. Yes.

Chrisalis: To hanging out with someone. I'm sure I've probably annoyed some people with my lack of messaging sometimes.

'cause when I'm with someone, I don't like messaging other people. And when there has been hierarchical relationships that I've had, there has almost felt like a, a nagging pressure to reply. And even if I've been deliberately being like, no, I'm with this person and I don't like when other people are on their phones.

Um, right, right, right. I I, I get so stressed out. But yeah, it would be like a, a sort of cognitive dissonance of like, I want to reply, but I also don't want to be on my phone at all. Right. Um, so yeah, being present with people, but then also within that presence, also having [00:28:00] the understanding that. Nothing exists in a vacuum.

Um, friendships and love and human connection are communal even if there's only two people there at that moment. Each of them has loads of connections and yeah, it has happened in my life recently where I had someone that was sort of, kind of primary partner level of entanglement, um, just mm-hmm. 'cause neither of us had anything else really going on when we'd gotten together and just Sure.

Got really, really in love. 'cause we had loads in common as well. Sure. And then both kind of becoming more connected to each other's communities and then starting to feel strong feelings of attraction for each other's friends and our shared friends and loving the idea of that. But then. Feeling the pain of that, especially when it's like that, that, that's [00:29:00] my friend I introduced you to.

Mm. And like, you guys are sort of connected and I'm, I'm all alone over here. Mm. And then knowing how that feels and then potentially projecting it onto their experience of me connecting with people in that kind of friendship group. Mm-hmm. But ultimately, like it, it did end up sort of making the relationship too painful really to continue.

And at the moment we're sort of going no contact just because there was a lot of codependency that we'd built up. Sure. Um, and it was stopping us from following our kinda natural connections in other directions. Mm-hmm. So that's how I have been practicing it. I think I'm hoping. That's going to be my final capital R relationship.

Mm. Because I, when that sort of, when [00:30:00] we went on a break, which resulted in a breakup, which Yeah. I don't want to think of those words in my reconfiguration. Yeah,

Dr. Nicole: yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chrisalis: It had just, yeah. It taken up so much of our wellbeing and both of us, like, I think, had really been suffering for a few months out of that.

Mm. Mm-hmm. Um. And Yeah. Part of that was having conversations with another friend who's a relationship anarchist and saying like, I, I only want friends now. I don't even want to think of people as partners or lovers. Yeah. I want friends that I can hang out with and go on adventures with and practice floor arts with.

Mm-hmm. And sing with, like, I love singing in harmony with beautiful people that I love. Yeah. The vibrations. Woo. It's one of life's best feelings. Yeah. Um, and then, yeah, if, when we're facing each other we want to, we [00:31:00] can explore the physical dimension of the relationship, um mm-hmm. But for that, for it to be okay for that only to happen once or if we like it, then we can do it more.

But I've had relationships where we've had sex within the first day or two and, and had like a, a friendship as well, but, or. We would have been friends if we hadn't gotten into that romantic space and sexual space straight away, which then became the default. So then when we would hang out and walk around, instead of just being adventure buddies were holding hands and stopping and kissing under trees.

And it was sometimes nice, but sometimes it's like, I wanna go and like climb on that wall and like jump on rocks. And that's what I'm transitioning out of is kinda trying to be a, a relationship anarchist in a codependent relationship. Mm. And now I'm transitioning into [00:32:00] only wanting friends. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Chrisalis: Because yeah, I want my relationships to be friendships.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. There's often more stability in that, right? Because of. The intense complex web of things that happen to us when we have a quote unquote romantic. Wherever we draw that line and sexual connection, it is within our current context, so excited for the younger generations that are gonna benefit from stuff like this and be like, why was it so hard for you?

Like, good, good, good. We love that for future younger folks here. Um, but for us, within our current context and the society that we've grown up in, there's so many scripts, there's so much going on of how to do this right? And so when we have that inten intense attraction, it is that intense dopamine. Right Is all of those Sarah [00:33:00] Oxy to, oh my God, it is an intense drug and a a half, right?

NRE is a really intense drug. And so then when you pair that with so many cul, uh, cultural scripts that say, this is how you do it. Escalate, escalate, escalate, escalate the highest form of love as close, close, close, close, close, right? And you're not nurturing all the rest of your relationships. We kind of like fall into this black hole almost.

And our concept of self is formed by multiple relationships. Whether you fuck multiple people or not, all of us. The concept of self is formed by multiple relationships. And so when we step into that black hole of one singular connection, it places so much stress onto that connection that I don't think, uh, is really one good for the erotic, just bare minimum, you know, you need some space, um, but also just for pressure for the connection, right?

And so, um, that's true whether you're monogamous, polyamorous, or a relationship anarchist, we all need thriving community of [00:34:00] multiple people and there's often more stability then in those connections 'cause we're not working through so much of the really a, a whole part of our psyche that we still don't have a lot of language for.

I mean, it wasn't that long ago that people were. And, and we still hear this language of, oh, I was attracted to them, so I couldn't control myself. Oh. I just fell into it and I had to have this, like, it's this language that we use that's very like, um, animalistic. Like we just can't seem to control ourself around.

So like our whole society is still developing significant insight, communication, skill, and navigation of these sorts of emotions. So I hear you. That makes sense. Like friendships are super stable in comparison.

Chrisalis: Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Chrisalis: I feel that that's another part of the, the label of transcendental anarchism, I think of, um, it is sort of.

Moving past the animal. Like not, not getting rid of the animal. 'cause the animal's [00:35:00] there. Right. Right. And being able to Yeah. Like get into that like ah, sure. Kind of feeling exactly when the context is right. But being able to be based in our humanity and our kind of sense of spirit almost. Which in this kind of form of spirit, I'm talking like sense of being part of something bigger than ourselves.

Mm-hmm. Like the kinda overall context. And I think we are animals, but we're evolving into something more than just animals. And I want to be that duality. I want to have the conscious choice, maybe have the energy of the animal, but have an animal with, be an animal with free will. Um, 'cause there's been plenty of people that I've been animalistic attracted to.

Yeah. Who being with them made my life. Woo. Not miserable, but just so intense and uncomfortable and like, brought out all my [00:36:00] insecurities and we ended up just in a really kind of toxic situation.

Dr. Nicole: Sure, yeah. Some relationships are like clouds, things are brighter when they leave. That might be shade for someone else, but it's, uh, it's not what I need in my life.

Right. And as a, as a type a, sort of girly myself, like I've definitely found, uh, such a joy. I feel like I've unlearned this. I'm gonna knock on wood, right, with some confidence there. Um, but the types of relationships where I feel like they're kind of out of reach or like they're a little bit emotionally unavailable, I'm like, oh, what a project.

I could get a stray a on. She says like, oh my gosh, if I could look at my younger self, it's like, no, walk away. Invest in your creative flow and find some other energy for yourself. Right? But like, man, I've walked into that web more than a hundred times to just oof. And so it's a learning process truly. I, I, I see that as a part [00:37:00] of like the spiritual practice is increasing that awareness as you go through this and learning and developing more.

And then the more that we're able to love ourself and kind of stay away from these complex webs, the more we can love other people with security and stability. What you're talking about with your friendships, the people that are there for you through rupture and repair, and are able to navigate a lot of those complex emotions.

Chrisalis: Yeah. I completely agree. Yeah. Um, mind is a little blank.

Dr. Nicole: That's okay. That's okay. That's okay. Yeah. And so it's a great time to kind of transition into our next question then, which is, why do you practice relationship anarchy? Why is this important to you?

Chrisalis: Partially, I have not really managed any other way.

Dr. Nicole: I know I feel that now,

Chrisalis: um, I wasn't good at monogamy when that felt like the only option. Um, but with polyamory there's such a importance placed on romance and sex, [00:38:00] and especially being within poly communities as a, a poly person, or even like when I was kind of thinking of myself more as relationship anarchist.

It is really, it can be really painful to be surrounded by these people that you love who are all hooking up with each other and. Not really. Like almost being in the center of the room with everyone just kind of fucking around me. Mm. Not, not quite like that, but that's sometimes what it felt like it.

Mm-hmm. And or I'd be at kinda kink type parties and I'd end up like in the corner chatting about philosophy with someone. Totally. About everyone else is kind of doing scenes with each other. Yeah. And yeah, when I was thinking to myself as polyamorous it, it brought a lot of insecurities in me. It was like, why don't I have these multiple relationships that everyone else in my [00:39:00] community has?

And it was when I more transitioned to valuing friendships that. That's when I started being able to connect with people in that way. 'cause I wasn't putting all this extra importance into sex and romance. Right. And just being able to love.

Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. So that frame shift, right, because I'm sure you had those friends when you were saying, why don't I have multiple relationships?

Right. And so that frame shift to see that you actually do have multiple relationships. I am, there's a couple of things I wanna do in my career, right. Is one, to end rape culture and two, to invite the world to reflect on the fact that we all have multiple relationships. Mm-hmm. I think we'd be in a very different world if we all had that frame.

And hence where people can practice monogamy or polyamory under relationship anarchy when you have that frame. And it's that we all have multiple relationships. They're all important. And this brings me back to what you were [00:40:00] saying earlier about presence of how you practice it. I feel like. The pleasure of life is found in presence cash.

Like whether that's grief and you're really in it and you're there, you're like, it's, there is a specific amount of pleasure in feeling that. I, I hope people can hear the nuance of that. 'cause you're living, right? Mm-hmm. Or in a conversation that you're having with someone. There's people who have sex that is less present than a conversation, right?

People are in their heads, they're just fucking, and, and, and not even connecting with that person. And so I think about the power of it being, about that presence that you, you mentioned earlier, and that being the most significant thing that you could really experience with another person. And then knowing that there's so many different ways to do it, whether it's flow art or that conversation, or like I said, the board game, right?

Like when you really feel into that level of presence, embodiment, the pleasure is abundant. Wherever you're at.

Chrisalis: Yeah. That's how you get into those [00:41:00] transcendental ecstatic states. Right? Like the, the difference between like a stroke on the arm when you're in your body and when you're not in your body, it's can be worlds apart.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Chrisalis: And yeah, everything that life has to offer is so much fuller and more vibrant the more present that you are.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Chrisalis: And that kind of, sort of brings it back around to the spiritual aspect as well. 'cause that is what all of the gurus teach right. Across disciplines is presence. Mm-hmm. And awareness of the now and that time doesn't even really exist potentially.

Sure. And that this is where all the energy is, is where life occurs, is on this big stage of now. And if we're constantly thinking about the past or wondering about the future, then we're missing what's going on.

Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yep. And so that's a great, I think, transition into the next question, which is, how does relationship anarchy impact your [00:42:00] practice of intimacy?

I'm already hearing that presence being such a significant piece of that, but how else does relationship anarchy impact intimacy for you?

Chrisalis: I think one big part of it was that relationship anarchy allowed me to have kind of physical intimacy with friends. Um, like I, I used to be, my friends would set at least a little bit of space away and like partners and lovers, we would be cuddling and just constantly like using each other as furniture.

Dr. Nicole: But I hear that

Chrisalis: and at, at the start of kinda having more of a poly community, I was spending more time with these people who are very physically affectionate. And I, I found it so shocking and honestly a little confusing at first. 'cause I was like, are they into me? Because like, they're touching me a lot.

Mm. And it feels really good and we're really close and we're smiling lots and there's loads of eye contact. It's like surely they must like be [00:43:00] into me. And then I'd kinda get into some sort of cycle of limerence almost Sure. Where I would just be like overthinking the, the connection and then often sort of ruining my experience of those lovely moments by wondering, and then sometimes even like, causing problems in those relationships by attempting to escalate when it was just a lovely moment with a friend who was touching my leg.

Yeah. And as a, a way of connecting. So I think bringing. Or stripping away the expectations of touch and intimacy and affection huge, really allowed me to be able to get a lot of pleasure from those moments. Um, and a lot of connection from those moments and being able to find that intimacy in eye contact that lasts just that little bit longer than the, your kinda instinct to look away.

Sure. Um, [00:44:00] or really hearing someone or really feeling heard or seen. There's so much intimacy in human interaction and it can happen at like huge distances as well. Yeah. Like I, I sometimes get it with juggling where, um, I'll just be juggling at a party and. I didn't feel like anyone was watching. And then like I either do some cool thing that accidentally that I've not done before, or I have a spectacular drop or something lands on my head.

Yeah. And just that moment of kinda scanning the crowd and seeing that someone's just seen it and it's like, like those, those moments. Mm-hmm. Just, yeah, life has got an infinite number of possible intimate moments that are there to be appreciated. If you can strip intimacy away from the romantic relationship escalator.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole: [00:45:00] Mm-hmm. Yeah. There's that saying, intimacy is into me, you see? Right. It's that moment of juggling, right? Yeah. It's not me, so, whoa. Yeah. Associated. Yeah. Totally. It's good. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, and so that moment of the juggling being a witness, right? Someone's witnessing you. And I think that's the, some of the profound aspects of the human experience is to be witnessed by other people.

That's, that's essential. We actually lose our mind when we are completely in solitude and not being witnessed by other people, right? Mm-hmm. Relational beings. And we all need that. And so it makes sense that with this frame shift, you'd be feeling more of that intimacy with multiple people and, uh, anarchy being about this deconstruction of power systems, right?

And so there's so many systems that we live under, and there's so much that is just the water that we swim in. And so there is a level of when you're working through this, um. Pointing the arrow upward to say that like, wow, this system really impacted me and taking [00:46:00] responsibility for it as we do that.

And so when we were talking about touch, right? We mo many of us have been touched, starved. To be clear, right? And then for years and years, social conditioning, again, any sort of touch means the escalator, right? And so it makes sense that under these systems that would be what we're feeling, that limerence, oh my god, this is gonna go here to here, to here, to here.

We're gonna live together the mortgage and then we'll die happy. Whoa, whoa. How fast did that go? It went fast, you know? Um, and so it's like some level of pointing the arrow upward, not attacking ourselves because hey, like it makes sense that based on our systems, that's what we'd be thinking. And also then that accountability, right?

We are accountable for actions and wanna, um, change and do better in the future. And so I think what I'm hearing from you say is the more that you do that active deconstruction work for our unconscious, truly the more joy you find in the abundance. Of [00:47:00] opportunities and intimacy that is in front of you and the here and the now, not the projection out, not the fantasy, but right here in the here and the now and the intimacy and the connections that are around you.

Chrisalis: Yeah. E even from non-human, like Yes. Sources. Like either

Dr. Nicole: love my cats

Chrisalis: animals, or like, I've had it with mountains and stuff before. Sure. And like Sure. I'll admit occasionally this has been on various totally psychedelic molecules. Yeah. Um, but sorry,

Dr. Nicole: it's safe to talk about that in this space.

Chrisalis: Just Yeah.

Feeling seen and connected with a hillside or a woodland. Yeah. Or a body of water and like Okay. Like there was one time I was tripping where. I actually like felt a little bit turned on looking Sure. At this hill I, I was on another hill just in front of it with a valley in between and it just kind of come over it and I was like, [00:48:00] oh, that's a good hill.

Yeah. And just feeling that excitement that normally would only come from a sort of sexy encounter with a human and just feeling it within myself. Mm-hmm. I think one thing that intimacy kind of teaches is, or being able to get, like when you get that intimacy from different sources, is that these nice feelings that we get from intimacy and from love and from being turned on, however you will kind of see what that means.

Yeah. It comes from inside us, like we create our own neurotransmitters. The oxytocin and the serotonin and the dopamine, they're all generated inside our bodies and yet other people can trigger them. But to understand the interaction with any, and I, I do, part of it I think is that I do believe that mountains are conscious and trees are conscious and that the whole of the [00:49:00] universe is conscious.

So maybe it's a little different for people who do just believe that math is in there unless is within a living system. Mm-hmm. Um.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Chrisalis: Trail off on a bit, a tangent there. And I've lost my,

Dr. Nicole: I hear, I don't think it's a tangent. It's all related. So I'll connect some dots. Uh, yeah, I, I think that even for the folks who think it is just matter, 'cause I think that would've been my past consciousness. Sometimes I get to a certain space where I'm like, damn, my previous self, it depends on where I pick it.

'cause if I pick like purity culture, Christian self, I, I'd be praying for me right now and my soul, you know. And then a little bit after that I'd still be like, damn, who's this woowoo spiritual chick like talking to me? You know? But it's like, okay, we're here. Something about training and psychedelic assisted psychotherapy definitely did shift things for me.

It's true because as you were speaking, I wanted to say like, have you ever felt the wind. On your skin [00:50:00] folks. Yeah. Like, you know what I mean? Like, whoa, like I'm being touched by nature and it's forced, like, okay. You know, and so I think about eroticism. Um, Audrey Lorde has this great piece, I, I believe it's called on the use of the erotic.

I have to link that in the show notes, but great piece, if you just Google Audrey Lorde erotic, you'll probably find the piece. And a lot of what she talks about is the ways that the erotic is present when she is out in nature just as much as when she's having sex with her lesbian lover, right? Like it is about embodiment and it is about presence, right?

And so you can feel that with the wind, you can feel that with a partner. And even if you don't believe in the, you know, um, aliveness of all that, which is funny because like we know from like a very like quantum level that this is force and energy, like everything from. Sentience we can get into complex conversations about, but no matter what, like these are things that have true energy in them.

[00:51:00] Okay. Um, see past self would be like, what is she saying? It's like, take a, take a class in physics and come back. Um, you know, um, but yeah, there's just so much grander in that and, and when you really feel that awe and that scale with the mountain, I think that that can activate a lot of that life force as well.

'cause you're like, wow, I am just a small dot on a small dot and an e, even bigger small dot. And that can either produce a little bit of existential dread and or at the same time that aliveness of Wow, what a crazy world we live in.

Chrisalis: Uh, yeah. Wind. I do love wind.

Dr. Nicole: I love wind too. Right in the sun. Ooh.

Chrisalis: I think one of the most intimate, and I hadn't really ever thought of it as intimate until this conversation, but I think one of my most intimate experiences was another psychedelic trip, um, up a hill where I was just sitting at this cliff edge with a friend and there was one angle that I could have my head mm-hmm. Where [00:52:00] it sounded like breathing.

Mm-hmm. Behind my ear. But then I would kinda turn my head and it was disappeared. And it felt like it was like one of those, uh, sculptures that when you look at it from one angle, it's something, but then as soon as you move away, then it's just completely like, sure mess. And it was, it felt like that, it was like all of the tiny little sounds of nature with the wind and the, the bushes rustling and maybe people walking in the distance.

It felt like it was nature breathing behind my ear. And a really, really, like comforting and whole, like, I felt so held by nature and I felt like she could. She was perceiving me in those moments as well and could tell that I could hear her breathing. And it was just really, really profound moment of spiritual intimacy with the the mystery.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And so you're talking about the relationships to [00:53:00] everything. Right? I think that's why when we started this conversation, I'm like, where do you even draw the line of the box of relationship anarchy? 'cause it's a relationship to wind, a relationship to my cat, a relationship to my lover, a relationship to the earth globally, my Chicago, right?

These are all relationships, even relationship to a drug, right? Relationships to psychedelics, coffee, like all these different things. And then also the meaning making that we have, there's so much power in that when we realize that our brains are always making meaning, they're always making stories. And we do have a lot of control over that.

Often we can feel like we don't, sometimes we have those first intrusive thoughts, but we do have the ability. As a muscle to quiet the mind, slow the thoughts down and come back to the body, to the felt sense because, oh man, I mean, I just went for a run before this recording, and as I'm thinking like, oh, I've got this podcast, I've got this going on, I got this going on, I'm definitely not feeling the wind in that [00:54:00] moment, right?

Because my brain is going in all these different spaces. And so it's really important to remember that if you want this level of embodiment, there is a muscle mindfulness, right? To be aware of all the different thoughts that are going on in the brain, slow them down and come back to that present moment.

And so that's something that will benefit all of your relationships across the board.

Chrisalis: Uh, I think for me, another word that I'd like to associate with how I interact Sure. Um, is tantra. Mm-hmm. Like there's, obviously, there is the, the stereotype of tantric sex where Yeah. When you bring those principles into sex.

Can be incredible and it can last stages and it's all just, it becomes a full body experience where just tiny little touches are just electric. But thinking of tantra as a philosophy of your presence with sensation. Mm-hmm. And more than just presence with the [00:55:00] sensation, but like, active manipulation is not the right word, but moving with the sensations.

Mm-hmm. Um, and breathing into the sensations and making it this dynamic breath of the end breath and the out breath to bring new feelings in. And then to sort of keep the, the energy cycling.

Dr. Nicole: Right.

Chrisalis: Um. Like I've described friendships as tantric friendships. Um, I describe music that has like lots of build ups and floaty bits, and that's just really dynamic.

I, I describe that as tantric music. Um, I think it's such a powerful practice and I mean, I speak about it as if I actually like practice anything with any sort of discipline. I am highly distractible and everything I do, I do little bursts of including meditation and mindfulness and tantric practices.

Dr. Nicole: Sure.

Chrisalis: Um, [00:56:00] but yeah, viewing the worlds through that lens I find leads to a very. Satisfying and sensational life.

Dr. Nicole: Totally. Yeah, absolutely. I hear you on the, uh, definitely not an expert in RA in any capacity over here. I've, I've certainly given my lens on relationships and sexuality, and I did a very basic yoga teacher training.

And so like, at the, just very like surface level knowledge. Um, but what I do understand about is like, yeah, the ways that we've really like capitalized and like, uh, um, cultural, like cultural appropriation to a certain level, often of like, oh, it's about sex. It's about sex, it's about sex. It's about sex.

But I appreciate what you were saying about this deeper insight to the practice that I know it to be more about embracing the divine in all things in life. So I'm finding the sacred in all things in life, truly the pain and the pleasure, the, the disgusting [00:57:00] and the horror, and the things that truly make your jaw drop, as well as the things that bring you that joy and finding the divinity in all of that, right?

And so hence where often in our very white patriarchal society sex got this very like, negative shame, like so bad, so, so bad. But Tanha never had that lens on it, right? Because it was like, oh, the sacred is in everything. And so, mm-hmm. Uh, it makes sense why we would all like capitalize on that specific area of it, but also then that deeper practice to see it as more of, um, abundance of the divine in all things.

And so that comes back like we were saying, to, to pleasure being really embracing. Everything that's in the present moment. And so I see that as all deeply connected, but I'll, I'll certainly name I, I have not practiced it, you know, as like someone devote of a lineage or anything. So I think that's important to name too, but I, it, it's really connected to a lot of what we're saying about like presence and being with ourselves and other people.

Chrisalis: Absolutely. [00:58:00] Another big part of it as well, for me, that really pulls me towards it. And again, I am a student of chaos where I just Sure. Love all sorts of systems. Follow your passion.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Chrisalis: But I, I love that it's about unification of opposites. Mm-hmm. Um, it's about sort of finding that middle path between the two and walking along that where if you do translate that into like a sexual or even a relational context, it's about not spiraling off into either direction that it could be, but kinda.

Sort of breathing because you've got got to keep breathing to not lose yourself in the direction. Yeah. But the further along you can walk that middle line. Like in sex, it's spiraling off into orgasm essentially. Mm-hmm. Like if you can keep breathing, uh, and it feels like a tightrope in those more visceral kind of practices, the further along you get, just everything builds up.

The, the connection to everything, the energy that's flowing into the, [00:59:00] or flowing through the presence can be really profoundly powerful and healing. And yeah. And if you can stay on that tight rope and then just stop rather than like finishing. Sure. And then that energy can. Just brighten up your whole world to turn into whatever you want to, like creativity, um, or flow or healing.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It was reminding me about, uh, for me, like my flow practice would be rock climbing, right? Mm-hmm. And so there's so much in that practice of having to take real deep breaths because you're very literally doing a practice like flow arts and spinning fire, right? That you could actually be harmed from.

And so when you're in that, you have to take those deep breaths. When you're outside on a cliff base and you start to shake, you have to take some deep breaths. And so it reminds me a lot of the ways [01:00:00] that I practice expansive relating. Oh my gosh. When you were talking about the community sharing of people loving each other and, and having to deal with all of those complex emotions reminds me a lot of trying to climb up a mountain, going, I am shaking right now.

I actually have, like, if you're in a good community, I have a very safe system where this rope is safe, this community is safe. That's, that's a big determiner, right? If you're climbing with a shitty rope, wow, okay. That's a whole different, whole different scene. But when you're in a good community with good people and that rope is secure and then it's working through the experiences that are going on in your body, it's like, can I take that deep breath?

And keep going. Can I take that deep breath and keep going? And some of those relationships are clouds and I had to get some of those out, right? That rope was not secure. And that makes sense, right? And as you start to find more secure people, you can kind of work through a lot of those really complex emotions, right?

Um, often with my therapy [01:01:00] clients, you know, it, it's, if you've experienced trauma, and I would say we've all collective collectively experienced a certain level of trauma around relationships and sexuality in our white Western world, um, it takes getting into a safe space to start to unpack that. Because until then you're in survival mode, right?

And so when you get into these safer spaces, you're kind of able to push that window of tolerance. You're like, wow, I'm feeling that stretch of my heart. I am scared, but I am safe. And that nuance there, like taking the deep breath through that. Life changing. It doesn't hurt as much. It is still scary, but you're not holding that tension in the body anymore.

Chrisalis: Yeah. Tension,

Dr. Nicole: life's lessons. It's all around. Yeah. And so I'm curious, I've talked a little bit here about some of the difficulties even just in that transition, but for you, what are the difficulties you've experienced in relationship anarchy?

Chrisalis: I think sometimes like a [01:02:00] difference in definition. Oh yeah,

Dr. Nicole: totally.

Chrisalis: Like I, I think for a lot of people, if, if you haven't done any of the prior reading on anarchism and relationship anarchy, then relationship anarchy at like a very surface level can just seem like irresponsible. Solo polyamory, I guess.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, sure.

Chrisalis: Where it's like, and I, I think a lot of the time it people do sort of use relationship anarchy as an excuse to totally just not really think about other people's feelings.

Yep. Yeah. Kind of seen that within my communities about that when there has been like, communities I find sort of pulse, like there's sometimes like really, really tight knit core and then shit goes down and then it sort of scatters, and then some of those people will come back and there's other people coming in and it, it goes in waves.

Mm-hmm. Um, but I think [01:03:00] one, and it maybe comes from like wishful thinking on my part, but there has been times when I have felt so close to everyone. I in my kinda immediate community and it's just felt so utopian.

Dr. Nicole: Mm. Yeah.

Chrisalis: And a lot of people in my community do consider themselves relationship anarchists.

It's usually been one of the relationship anarchists, um, who maybe hasn't done the reading that ends up acting in a way that fragments the group and then all of a sudden people that you could hang out with together and have lovely group hangs it sort of disperses from communal vibes. And it becomes like, I have that friend that I hang out with on this day and that friend, I hang out with that on that day.

And it's obviously important to have one-to-one connections with people as well. But yeah, I think as 'cause it's [01:04:00] maybe these people are just kind of doing the same exploring and mistake making and learning that. I did when I first kind of came across the mm-hmm. The term. Um, yeah, but the, the, the instability of all just kinda feeling like there's a really tight core community where there is that mutual aid and everyone's got each other's back and.

Yeah. It just feels so utopian. Yeah. And then to almost have to grieve. Yes. The loss of that. Oh yeah. When just one person acts in a way that hurts someone else and that person gets mad at someone else that they were getting closer to, but now that person seems like competition rather than their own relationship and.

Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah. Campaigns, people start campaigns. It reminds me of, uh, Dean Spade's recent book Love In a Fucked Up World. Have you read that one? No. Highly recommend. Yes. Highly recommend. I would feel, I would say [01:05:00] it's, it's like all the concept of relationship anarchy without that title. And so, okay. Um, Dean Spade is a relationship anarchist.

I have an episode with them from like way back, but their recent book is like, all about this sort of thing. They've done a lot of, um, work in movement spaces as an activist, and so talking literally about this of communities of how do we actually work through conflict and rupture and repair and all of that.

And yeah. I I hear you. What, when you're saying of how good it can feel when your whole community is together. I wrote, um, the psychedelic Jealousy guide that's available on my website, and I talk about the ways that. Expansive relating feels like a psychedelic trip. And we talk about psychedelics as non-specific amplifiers, right?

And so I would say that this expansive relating is gonna amplify your attachment, take that drug, and then sit down. You know what I mean? Like whoa. Um, and that being said, like when we think about a non-specific amplifier, right? When it's good, [01:06:00] it's real good. Oh my gosh, I have all these people around me.

This is so fun. We all love each other. Whoa. And then something happens and you're like, oh my God, everyone's upset. There's this whole, oh my god, you know? 'cause it's all of the people now. And so you're like, oh God. And so I've definitely been there of like so joyful. And then feeling like that complete drop when things happen because it's not just one relationship, it's like six or seven or whatever your circle is.

And then you're like, okay, this is a lot. I now have six relationships. I could be stressed out about. Cool. Cool. Okay. Felt really good when we were all happy, but yeah, then I can I hear you in the complexities of that for sure.

Chrisalis: Yeah, that sums up perfectly

Dr. Nicole: uhhuh. Yeah. So learning the skills for all of us, like all of us are learning those skills and, and walking each other home in that sense of trying to, uh, yeah, go through rupture and repair and what it [01:07:00] means.

Like even when, you know, on the biggest scale, right? Like what is restorative justice, right? Like that's like the big, big community scale. And then even on our local smaller scales. And so the personal is the political. The more that we can find out how to do that with better skills, uh, within our local community, I think the more that we can then expand outwards to really change these larger systems, you know, and bring more restorative justice and healing into our communities.

Chrisalis: Yeah, it's, it's interesting that you compared it to psychedelic experience. Oh, it's a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Also, if you combine that with psychedelics Oh yeah. You got stories.

Dr. Nicole: I've got stories.

Chrisalis: Yeah. Just Trey relationship anarchists, like having ecstatic experiences and then hyper fractualize insecurities, like

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Yeah. They talk about MDMA being like, oh yeah, you work on it, you know, for trauma, it's gonna bring all your [01:08:00] trauma responses down. You're gonna feel so secure. That's not the case. Right. It's a non-specific amplifier folks. And so when you take that for your first threesome, oh man, your attachment is gonna be flaring.

Hello. Like, um, so lessons learned in that sense. For sure. For sure.

And so we'll balance it out. Right. Those are some of the difficulties. What are some of the joys that you've experienced?

Chrisalis: Cuddle puddles.

Dr. Nicole: Mm, yes.

Chrisalis: Like sort of non-sexual Yeah. Cuddle puddles. Um, one's maybe where there is a little bit of extra energy. Yeah. That's nice too. But I think the safety and loveliness of cuddle puddle with your best friends is just, yeah.

So warming for mm-hmm. The heart and soul and just Yeah. Fills the body with all of the nice chemicals.

Dr. Nicole: [01:09:00] Totally. Yeah. I know. I love that safety in numbers there on a pure evolutionary sense too. And it, it's so interesting because just thinking about expansive relating and opening our hearts up more, so many people.

When they think about the world of polyamory, relationship anarchy, there's always that first response of like, I'm too jealous. I could never, right. It's like, okay, like if you don't wanna have sex with another person for the rest of your life, like sure. Like, let's respect that, honor that. Cool. What about your partner being able to snuggle another person?

What about your partner? Being able to hold hands with another person of whatever gender they're attracted to, right? Like, can we like, relax just a little bit? You got like, I, if we wanna hold the line with sex, like, okay, like I'll, I'll, I'll hold that with you, but like, damn. Like relax, let them hold hands with people they're attracted to let them hug, like let them sn.

Like [01:10:00] what world is this that we live in now? If you go back to my previous consciousness though, I'd be like, absolutely. Fucking not. I freaked out when my partner wanted to go get coffee. Someone of a gender they were attracted to when I was younger, coming from purity culture. So I have some level of like sympathy for that, but also like, damn younger Nicole, you gotta relax a little.

You know?

Chrisalis: Yeah. I was very much the same. Yeah. Especially when there is that agreement that like you're sort of faithful to someone. Right. Um, and then when Yeah. Especially for me, because I didn't really have much touch with friends. It was like all

Dr. Nicole: Yep.

Chrisalis: Touch was Yep. Sexual and for 'cause it was generally women that I was dating, women in general are often a lot more affectionate with

Dr. Nicole: Yep.

Chrisalis: Friends. Yep. And, and that would feel almost like an [01:11:00] imbalance. It's like, well, I'm holding myself back from physically connecting with any of my people. But you're not. And then kinda, yeah. Feeling those feelings of jealousy.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Chrisalis: Yeah. But then, yeah, learning about comparison was a big shift in things for me as well, that I, I think that's probably one of the really difficult to reach sometimes places.

Oh, sure. But one of the really rewarding feelings is when you do feel jealousy that you've been maybe a little attached to. Um, and then feeling that start to melt away. Mm-hmm. And then being able to share in that energy and happiness that is someone that you love. Yeah. Being happy with someone else in whatever way.

Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. And I feel like the biggest, um, there's a lot to unpack with jealousy, of course, in terms of what makes a good trip with expansive [01:12:00] relating. Right. Again, if you're. Lover human that you're connecting with is lying to you. Of course you're gonna be jealous and feeling lots of emotions, I think.

So it's important not to be like, oh, why? What's wrong with me? I would say, ah, you're in a bad set and setting, and that's why the psychedelic trip isn't going so good, my friend. Okay. It's not the drug, it's not expansive relating, it's your set and setting. Right. And then also, there are a lot of things to deconstruct in the mindset, right?

When you have grown up in dare culture and all these, uh, racialized drug wars, if you're taking the drug and the whole time thinking, wow, the cops are gonna come and take me to jail, that's a really difficult psychedelic trip That mm-hmm. Is a reflection of the mindset and the culture that we live in, right?

And so the same thing can happen with expansive relating, right? It's like, um, what sort of narratives like we were talking about, the relationship escalator, the intimacy escalator automatically happening. The second I see my partner, for me and my first threesome, it was literally seeing my [01:13:00] partner hold hands.

With another woman, which is like so silly because like watching, uh, like PV intercourse didn't do anything to me, but the handholding, I was like, what is this? You know? And so it was the romance myth and all that stuff that just went. And so there's a bit of that, that nuance to jealousy, right? Like is it your mindset?

Is it the setting, is it a mix of all of that? And I think it's really important to get into that, um, because it's not like, uh, the psychedelic drug is bad in and of itself. It's just these deeper questions about the set and setting. And so I hope more people can get into that nuance because then it makes conversion so much easier.

Because if you're beating yourself up of why am I not feeling compersion when your setting is bad? It's like, dude, hold on. You know what I mean? Um, and so I think that's half of the journey too, is getting more curious about these contextual factors.

Chrisalis: I think so. Yeah. 'cause the, the most recent one where I got very entangled with that person, [01:14:00] there was a lot of jealousy.

Um, at the start it was mainly me. And then towards the end it was them Sure. Feeling more of it. And yeah. It, it felt like, and it was exactly the set and setting thing, it was the context was making it painful. 'cause at the same time, like when that relationship started up, that's when I was reading relationship anarchy.

Sure. So I was having these experiences that were really not setting great with me, um, because it was their first Polly relationship and they were just out of a monogamous relationship. So they were looking to explore when we first kinda got together, they described it as like they're, they want to have a slut era.

Mm. And I was very supportive 'cause I was like, sure. Yeah. Do that. Like Yeah. You've not really had a chance to do that yet. Yeah. Um, and. Hadn't ever like read any of the stuff. They hadn't, they, they didn't know how it might make people feel. 'cause again, it was like, I encouraged and then [01:15:00] because I did like their reaction to me feeling and kind of, I wouldn't speak about, and this was maybe a mistake, I wouldn't speak about my jealousy in the moment.

I would sort of be quiet and then I would try and work through it and Sure. Sift through my feelings and then I would speak about it after the feeling had kinda subsided a bit. Yeah, totally. But yeah, it, there was a lot of dissonance between sort of reading all the stuff that I really agreed with of

Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah.

Chrisalis: I mean, and it, it does say in the book I like, and it was one of the last things I read and it actually was, it's fine to not dive into completely open relationship anarchy. Like, don't make yourself suffer and just out of principles.

Dr. Nicole: Yes. Slow dose. Slow dose. We don't need five grams for first time. Right.

Like slow dose, handshake, build the safety, and then if you wanna go there, [01:16:00] go. You know? Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. But I hear you. I'm, I, that type a energy where I'm like, I can do it all run, you know, it's like, whoa, hold on. We don't need to be crying at the play party. Right. Like, whoa. You know? Right.

So it is a, it is definitely a journey to, uh, in the psychedelic community, they'll say, move at the speed of trust. What a great continual metaphor for expansive, relating Yeah. At the speed of trust, right? We don't have to just drop in and then have that situation where you come out going, wow, I need to integrate What the hell that ego death experience was of having all those levers that, you know, and I'm like, Hey, I'm here for that.

I love working with folks in that integration space, but, um, for all of our nervous system's sake, you know, going a little bit slower with it for sure. And I feel like one of the biggest transformations that I can think about is, um. Love and connection is a resource that we all need. That's a non-negotiable.

Um, uh, [01:17:00] when babies are not held and cared for, they can be fed, but they, they will die. There's like research from orphanages where they weren't receiving enough touch. And so like, you will truly die if you do not receive enough of this as a human being. And so when, um, I think metaphorically, I've kind of talked about it as if, if your framework is that you only have one relationship, I would argue we all have multiple relationships.

But if your framework is that you only have one, and this is where you put all of your resources and you think about that as like a, a river, right? And so that river is flowing into you and then someone comes in and says, Hey, well, are you willing to share the water from that river? Fuck no. I'm so thirsty in this society.

No one snuggles with me. There's literally only one source of water. Right. Okay. Hold on. Very different picture when you start to say, wow, I have all these different relationships I can build and all of this, and now I have this abundance of water flowing into me and naturally I am not going to [01:18:00] be as aggressive to resource hoard.

Right. It's really interesting. It's, it's, it, it makes sense that in our society where touch is so deprived, where intimacy is so deprived and less, you are in that dyad, it makes sense that we'd be wickedly jealous because that is a resource that we all need. And so the more that you can expand that, and that doesn't have to even mean fucking, it can mean like we've been talking about this whole conversation, just intimacy and presence with more people.

The more you have that, the easier it gets. 'cause you're like, yeah, go. I feel really good. I have all of these sources of love in my life. Like find yours. Yeah, it's a different world.

Chrisalis: Oh, a hundred percent.

Dr. Nicole: I'm here for it. I'm here for it.

Chrisalis: Yeah. I think for me, that that shift kinda happened, um, probably around the time that I had read about relationship anarchy and it was just, it was an expend extended kinda dry spell in my life, but where I was, [01:19:00] um, getting a lot of RIN for basically whoever my closest friend was at the time.

Mm-hmm. Because I would just spend loads of time with them. Mm-hmm. And I would be like, you're amazing. I love you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, yeah, wanting more from that. And then I remember one day I was just, I dunno, sitting in work or on the street or something and I decided to just do an experiment in my mind where I would just look at people and try and.

Imagine what about them would make me fall in love with them? Mm-hmm. Yes. And so I'd kind of like look at just this old man or this, yeah, just random people in the streets. And I'd be like, how does it feel to be your lover? Like, not even kind of thinking about sex with them, but just like imagining standing in front of 'em, looking at 'em and feeling love.

And it's like, what? What about your personality or your kind of life really makes me fall in love with you? [01:20:00] And it was, it was a really nice kind of moment or exercise to do. But then through that, it just almost became a habit where I started seeing or looking for, or maybe just seeing, I think possibly starting to look for, and then getting into the habit of just seeing things in people that would make me.

Yeah. And that in a different timeline. Mm-hmm. Maybe we do have this amazing love story where yeah, it's just the two of us that are together forever or in whatever context. I wasn't really going into many details. It was just like, sure, you are inherently lovable by your humanity. Um,

Dr. Nicole: right.

Chrisalis: But that was when I kinda started telling people that I just fall in love with all my friends.

Yeah, totally. I, I can't really think of any friends that I don't love in the same way as I love lovers. Um, so it becomes more about deciding [01:21:00] kinda moment to moment what you do with a person rather than the expectations that come with these labels. Um, yeah, and I, I did start just feeling that love for my friends and that has also.

Caused issues in relationships that I've been in as well where there has been someone that I've been in a more traditional format of relationship with within the kind of greater context of relationship anarchy. And when I've told them, um, or when I've tried to sort of speak about my honest experience is that I do love our friends just as much as I love you.

And the same way, like they're, they're different because yeah, you're you and they're them and there's kind of the unique relationship dynamic of each of it, but the love is the same. Yeah. And the, the level of love, like it

Dr. Nicole: right,

Chrisalis: can ebb and flow a little bit, but it's there. There's no [01:22:00] qualitative difference in the love that I feel for.

A lover than mm-hmm. That I feel with a friend.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Like we were talking about the erotic, finding it in all things, right? Mm-hmm. And so finding love in all things, which can be really threatening for us, again, based on the society that we've grown up in. It's taught us that exclusivity is how we find security.

And so when someone says, I love all of my friends, like I love you, they go, what the Well then how am I special? What am what? What? You know? And it's like, it's so funny. I almost wanna change the frame of exclusivity because rather than exclusivity of actions, right, of what we do, it's more exclusivity of the self.

Like there's no one else that is you, you beautiful, lovely human. Like there is no replace. Like there is no other you like, right? And so, yeah, when you start to have that sort of frame and seeing the love in all people, it's like the, uh, the, the light in me season honors the light in you, right? Like, that's sort of true.

Like [01:23:00] trying to see the beauty and fall in love with all people as a deep spiritual practice. That makes sense. You know, you, the, the mind has neuronal pathways and if you keep walking a path, it, it goes deeper and deeper and deeper. And so to start building a new path, you often have to take, um, more.

Effort to start thinking new ways, but once you do, it's like a muscle. You keep lifting it. And so now your brain has this really deep ingrained pathway that it's walked multiple times of looking for the love. Looking for the love, looking for the love. And so I think it's an invitation for all of us in this moment to think about what does it mean to.

Drop into that for the people that hurt us. Not just the people that show up and are easy and kind and all of that, but genuinely the people that hurt us, which is not to say that we allow the hurt and the harm to continue. There is certainly a level of protecting yourself and all of that. And also what does it mean to soften and know that the person who's hurting you is hurt within themselves.

They've been hurt by the systems, right? All of those sorts of pieces. And so [01:24:00] for me, one of my practices is trying to think about that person as a baby. I think if I'm really struggling to see like the love and for them it's like if I can remember back that this person was once a small little human that usually can like tap into that for me.

Um, but I think it's a really deep practice to start doing that for the people that that hurt you as well. Um. Which gets me much closer to the teachings of Jesus shit. You know what I mean? Like, hey, I'm not Christian anymore, but shit,

Chrisalis: I, I was literally gonna mention Jesus was like, that's what Jesus was teaching unconditional love.

I, and he probably was in love with all of his friends too.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Oh man. Yeah. It's full circle moments, you know? It's cool. It's cool. Uh, well, I'm curious then the last question before we transition to the closing, uh, is what do you wish other people knew about relationship anarchy?

Chrisalis: I wish people knew that it's [01:25:00] not about sex.

Yes, it can contain sex. Mm-hmm. Um, but it's about finding what works best for you Yeah. And your natural ways of doing things. Mm-hmm. And what works best for your relationships. Yeah. And that people who are. Living that sort of fantasy of just the one person being enough. Mm-hmm. Fucking, I like that. That's great.

And it almost would be more romantic for them if they were doing it in the framework of relationship anarchy rather than like just monogamy. 'cause that's the only option that they can think of. Mm-hmm. And that's what people tell them 'cause Yeah. That's what you do when you have that big, massive love.

Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah. Mm-hmm. That big difference between compulsory compulsory, right? That's how you say that. Yep. [01:26:00] Yep. Compulsory monogamy versus choosing it. Right. And, uh, what does it mean to be conscious in that choice? That's a really complex question, right? Because it's like, do you have to practice the other to really know, right.

I'm not even gonna try and get into that, right? Yeah. It's like, nope, I've gone down that conversation. Not helpful, philosophical conversation. Um, but I think what's important here is that, yeah, relationship anarchy is about that deconstruction of the paint by numbers, right? We're taken it away. Completely.

And then giving you that big blank canvas and saying, what do you wanna paint with your relationships? Which can be incredibly terrifying because it's like, where is the escalator? Where am I going? What am I doing? And then when you go to start to paint, you realize all of the unconscious stuff that we've just spent all this time unpacking is there in my paintbrush.

Oh my gosh. Right? But the more you work through that and start to paint these brush jokes, every single one of us is gonna have a different canvas and what that [01:27:00] looks like, which is the beauty of it all. Right? And so for someone that might be having sex with one person for their entire life, beautiful.

For another person, it's throwing sex goodbye for the rest of their life. Because why do that? You know? And so it's like that full range of capacity. And so when you're really sitting that like, what a beautiful practice for all people to become more intentional about their ability to create their life consciously.

Yeah. Yeah.

Chrisalis: Absolutely. And it sort of ties back into the political anarchism as well. Like that's the one thing that I, or the one sort of moral argument that I almost have with I talk about political anarchy. Mm-hmm. Is believe in yourself. Mm-hmm. You don't need someone else to tell you how to live. We don't need laws that are enforced by violence for people to act in harmony with themselves and their communities and their environment.

And it's often those [01:28:00] rules and limitations on the natural way of things or the, the natural development of things that does cause all the pain and the suffering and the oppression. And maybe it helped us evolutionarily for a while at one point in our history, but we're at a point where we are all connected in so many ways and.

We are smart and we know ourselves better than we think. And yeah, I, I I want people to believe in their own autonomy.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Anarchy being such a deep practice of trusting that another world is possible and to keep envisioning that and to keep feeling that. And when you see that vision to like really embody that in the way that you move about through the world, oof.

That's how we're gonna get there, right? Is like step by step, conversation by conversation and all these [01:29:00] relationships because the personal is the political. There's so many systems that are outside of our control. Oh my god. Wow. Um, and so taking action within that and then also trusting in the ripples of these relationships that you're forming around you is truly political acts when you show up to go through that rupture and repair and that conflict, it's transformative.

Really is. Yeah. Well, as we come towards the end of our time, I'm gonna take a deep breath with you

and then I'll check in and see if there's anything else that you'd like to share with the listeners. Otherwise I can guide us towards a closing question.

Chrisalis: No, just cool, love. Yeah, I was gonna say I love you listener. Or if you're still here after all this, like, hey, you know, like,

Dr. Nicole: yeah. Very cool. Very cool. Alright, well then the closing question that I ask every person is, [01:30:00] what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

Chrisalis: Hmm. Queerness.

Dr. Nicole: Oh hell yeah.

Chrisalis: I think it's probably quite. Across the board. I, I, I think probably a controversial opinion in some spaces, but I think everyone's queer, whatever that means to them. Like no one is normal. No one is typical. Like everyone is beautiful weirdo. Yeah. And I think people should lean into that a bit.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Chrisalis: I, I don't wanna live in a world where everyone's the same.

Yeah. And I don't think many people do. It's like the most horrible bist vision of the future where there's no differences between people. And our strength comes from our. Uniqueness.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Expanding into that to get outside of the boxes of whatever has [01:31:00] restricted us, you know?

And yeah, it was funny when I did my dissertation on relationship anarchy, it was all queer folks. And so I had to put in my writeup like, wow, we need some heterosexuals. We need some cisgendered heterosexuals up in here. When is that the research? It's always the flip, you know? So I was like, yeah, that's, uh, I gotta even that one out in future research.

So, um, but yeah, I do see relationship anarchy as such a deep practice of queering, right? Queering relationships, querying the expectations, queering intimacy and, and all of that. And I feel like you did such a great job today, really like opening up to me and all of the listeners who are tuning in to share about your practice and the visions that you have for expansive relating, and to invite all of.

To step into deeper love today. So I'm, I'm really grateful for you. Thank you.

Chrisalis: Thank you. Yeah, thank you for, it's been such a great conversation.

Dr. Nicole: I love that. I love that it's truly an honor anytime that like a stranger [01:32:00] becomes a friend in a space like this, and we can spend the time talking about something so meaningful.

If you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast, and head on over to modern anarchy podcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I wanna thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.