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225. Jealousy vs Compersion: The Transformation of Liberated Love with Dr. Marie Thouin

Dr. Nicole: [00:00:00] Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Marie join us for a conversation about creating fertile soil for conversion. Together we talk about the power of our narrative frames, choosing to turn towards connection. And emotionally touching your toes. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you a pleasure, activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday.

My name is Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic [00:01:00] integration therapy, and I am also the founder of the Pleasure Practice supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships. Dear. Listener Compersion. Yes. This is a topic that I have been wanting to explore on the podcast with you, and to have today's guest, someone who has dedicated their research and wrote a book and is so committed to this topic.

What a joy, what a gift. Hello. Wow. I remember writing my, uh, doctoral dissertation on relationship anarchy and my dissertation chair. She, I had submitted one of my drafts for my final lit review, and she highlighted the word conversion and then put a note next to it for correction and said, maybe you meant compassion here, question mark.[00:02:00]

Dear listener, when I saw it, I was just, uh, responding as you can feel now with my voice, which is Damn. Yep. A lot to do in the field here because, no, I don't mean compassion. I mean, compersion and I get that that's not in the dictionary, but it should be. And, uh, when your dissertation chair marks that as a word to be corrected, it's a reminder of how much work is needed in this space, in the field of clinical psychology.

And I'm so grateful to be creating resources like this, educational resources like this podcast, and every single conversation we've had on here, all of the free resources that are on modern anarchy so that one day, one person won't have to do so much explaining as I did to my dissertation chair of what that word means.

Right? So it's a joy to have powerful resources like this. And I just wanna remind you, dear listener, about [00:03:00] emotionally touching your toes. We'll get into that, you'll hear in the episode, but all of this expansive love and liberation, it's a practice. There are so many systems present right now, so many systems deep within our unconscious.

And so just remember that it takes those small steps of gentle exposure, small steps of nervous system attunement, and small steps towards community building to become the person that you want to be, to become the type of lover and activist that you want to be in the world. And I'm with you on that journey, dancing and celebrating with you and all the wins, holding you in the tears that are definitely a part of this process and growing alongside you each Wednesday.

Ah. Alright, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your [00:04:00] pleasure, you can explore my offerings and resources@modernanarchypodcast.com, linked in the show notes below. And I wanna say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters, you are supporting the long-term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content free and accessible to all people.

So thank you. If you wanna join the Patreon community, get exclusive access into my research and personal exploration, then you can head on over to patreon.com/modern Anarchy podcast, also linked in the show notes below. And with that dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love and let's tune in to today's episode.

And so then the first question I'll ask you is how would you like to introduce yourself to the [00:05:00] listeners?

Dr. Marie Thouin: Hmm. Thank you for that. My name is Marie Twan. I am, gosh, there's so much that I could say. Yeah, I've been sure where to start, but I'm originally from Quebec, Canada. I moved to the San Francisco Bay area about 20 years ago and just really fell in love with the diversity and the sort of entrepreneurial spirit of wanting to always go further in the pursuit of ideas and mm-hmm.

Wanting to create, you know, like a better world and just feeling like everyone is on a mission and plugging in, in their own way to do that. And the, the ways that I've felt really inspired to plug in have been around intimate relationships and kind of reinventing or just like how do we. Move beyond the old templates of relationships.

Mm-hmm. That we've been handed and actually learn to create [00:06:00] authentic relationships in all parts of our lives, especially in the intimate realm where we are so heavily conditioned. Yeah. Moment we're born with things like mono normativity or heteronormativity, and all kinds of gender roles that we associate with what it means to love ultimately.

So my interest, if I have to encapsulate it, is to investigate how do we liberate love from these structures and conditionalities. And really create relationships that can feel true and authentic and liberating for us. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole: For us. Mm-hmm. Ah, so exciting. We're gonna have a great conversation. I am ready to see where our consciousness goes together in all of this.

It's, uh, such a important topic, right? Yeah. Liberating love and, uh, yeah. I think the first big question, right, is talking about compersion. Mm-hmm. [00:07:00] I know you wrote your book and so I'm curious if you could answer what is compersion? Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marie Thouin: So I would say the simple short answer is compersion is our wholehearted participation in the happiness of others.

But that can come in a variety of ways. After researching the topic for about a decade, I actually. Co-authored a definition of conversion with my colleague, Dr. Sharon Flicker for the Springer Nature Encyclopedia of Sexual Psychology and Behavior last year in 2023. Mm-hmm. And we decided on a three wrong definition, two of them having to do with non-monogamous relationships, and the third having to do with more general context.

Cool. So I'll run you through those if you'd like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The first one is, compersion is the broad range of positive emotions that we might experience in relation to our partners, other intimate [00:08:00] connections. So that's what we generally think about when we think about conversion in a poly or non-monogamous context, is, I'm so happy that you're happy with this other person.

It's this emotional shared joy reaction. However, what I learned through my research was that a lot of people experience compersion more cognitively or behaviorally. Sure. The second definition that we came up with was compersion is the broad range of thoughts, attitudes, and behaviors that one might experience in relation to their partners, other intimate connections.

So that's potentially when you interpret your partners other relationships as a positive event, but you don't necessarily feel joyful or high from it. Mm-hmm. And that really normalizes the idea that we can be coersive or act compulsively without necessarily feeling the emotion of com conversion.

Dr. Nicole: Right.

Yeah. That's huge for just life in [00:09:00] general with a lot of different emotions. Right. There's a lot of difficult things that we do in life. Say you're afraid of public speaking, right? You can have that fear, you can feel that intensity of in your stomach and still say. I'm gonna act from my values right now and get up on stage.

Right. So what does it mean to maybe feel that fear in your stomach, feel that, you know, anticipation in your chest and still say, Hey, I'm excited for you at the same time. Right. The ways that we're not defined by that initial re reaction we're really defined by our value system and what we choose to, to live through.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And in my book, I actually, um, talk about a compersion ethic. Mm-hmm. Which is a concept that I came up with in collaboration with Avida Sawyers, who is a polyamorous influencer, a really wonderful thought leader. And as we were talking about this, when I interviewed her for the book, we just, this concept of a conversion ethic emerged as what you just really [00:10:00] described is this idea of acting in alignment with our values.

Without trying to suppress what we're feeling, but not necessarily being, um, you know, like taking our feelings as a mandate to act a certain way. Mm-hmm. And that is a very powerful concept. And I actually related to Bell Hook's concept of a love ethic. Sure. I was just quoting her, uh, yesterday as I was doing a book reading.

And you know, she has a beautiful sentence that says, uh, something like, you know, like in order to love courageously, we have to face our fears. Mm-hmm. And fears will not necessarily go away, but they will not stand in the way. And that's a beautiful distinction. You know, I think we can be self-compassionate and embrace our fears and accept our fears.

Without being a slave of our fears. Mm-hmm. In terms of how we treat people.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. The more the attachment, the more the [00:11:00] love, the more the fear that comes through of what that person is in your world and what you could potentially lose. Right. So what does it mean to dance hand in hand with those two realities?

Oof. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And I really appreciate that you said it's also. Present in other dynamics outside of a non-monogamy frame. So a lot of relationship anarchy is trying to take off this prioritization on sexual relationships into mm-hmm. Understand that we all have intimate relationships that do different things, whether it's platonic, sexual, romantic, however you define that.

Right. But to understand that we all have intimate relationships and so I could see how bringing in that third level as well of this happens in other dynamics, not just partner dynamics would also be really important.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Exactly, exactly. The third definition is why we added it. Because even though [00:12:00] compersion was a word coined in the con, in the context of non-monogamous relationships, it is now starting to be used in other contexts.

And yeah, like the line between those, you know, categories of relationships that we make are so blurry. Mm-hmm. So, so yeah, just to speak out loud, that third definition is compersion, is the broad range of positive thoughts, attitudes, behaviors, and emotions that we might experience in reaction to someone else's gratifying experience in any context.

Mm-hmm. So, yeah, I mean, there's. So much richness that we can derive from applying that to all kinds of different life situations from, you know, feeling envious of someone that we see on Instagram, or a coworker or a sibling relationship. Mm-hmm. Like there's so many opportunities to look at our relationships from that lens [00:13:00] of, you know, like, is there room for more support and why wouldn't I show up with celebration of other people's successes?

And yeah. Even my own successes. I was having a wonderful conversation with a friend just this morning about the idea of self compersion. So that is new. It is totally not baked, but I kind of wanna throw that in the mix. Sure. Because a relationship with ourself is also an important relationship.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Yeah. So how do you see that being connected there?

Dr. Marie Thouin: I think that if you can have the ability to celebrate your own happiness and success, rather than in a way having this disconnect from it, you can allow yourself to celebrate the success of others more freely.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm, sure. Totally. Yes. Less threatening abundance.

There's abundance of opportunity rather than scarcity and Yes, absolutely. Mm-hmm. I could see that. Yeah. I'd love [00:14:00] to get into so much more of what makes. Conversion difficult. I'm sure that's where a lot of people tend to go in this conversation, right? Mm-hmm. Um, I wrote a psychedelic jealousy guide, which is almost kind of like, some people would think maybe the opposite of conversion.

I don't think they're directly opposites, but sometimes that's kind of what the frame we get into of jealousy versus conversion, right? Yeah. And, uh, there's just so much to unpack in terms of what gets in the way of compersion. Um, even in preparation for this conversation, one of my partners is out traveling, right?

They're on this like two week vacation. I'm not gonna see them. And it was funny, I hadn't heard from them for a couple of days, which was a little bit expected because, uh, they're gonna be going in and outta service, they're gonna be hiking, right? And mm-hmm. There was a part of me who, when I'll clue you in, they're there with their mom.

Okay.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Oh, okay.

Dr. Nicole: Right. So they're there with their mom. And when I hadn't heard from them, I was like, yeah, that's fine, [00:15:00] whatever. And then I was thinking about this conversation. I was like, oh shit. If they were there with another romantic partner, I know myself, I'd be like, they haven't called me in three days.

What the fuck? Like, oh, you know, and then that's for the narrative start. Oh my God. And so I think that what I, what I've, in my own journey found really helpful is to always try and put it into that context. If this was a family member, does it make it different? And why or why not? Right? Yes.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Oh, that is so beautiful.

Thank you for that. I love that. Yeah. 'cause we do, I think, you know, through our. Probably like both cultural and biological conditioning makes such a strong distinction between familial relationships and erotic relationships. Mm-hmm. And the level of threat we might feel when a relationship, you know, the other relationship is erotic in nature.

Right. It's a whole other code that gets activated in us.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. [00:16:00] Despite the fact that my partner's time and energy is being invested and, and so if we wanna see it in this frame, I don't like this frame taken away from me. I don't like that. Mm-hmm. But taken away from me.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Yeah,

Dr. Nicole: in a similar way, but the dynamics of course, of a mom and romantic are very different.

And yet you're right. It's the, it's the narratives around that and the potential threat around that. I don't see his mom as a threat to my positionality yet. If it was another romantic partner, now those couple of hours or days where I haven't heard from, oh, what is happening? You know, you see the snowball, the snowball start to rumble and just grow in size there, and then you can start all of the narratives and it's intense.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Yeah. Well, I would imagine at some level with, with that person's mom, you don't feel like you're competing for the same spot. Right. Versus with another partner. I think our brain goes to, well, there's only one spot for the spot of a romantic partner. And I, well, [00:17:00] it's two of us in that spot. It's one too many.

Right. Some level, that's what we grow up with hearing.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And I think that's the important part is to acknowledge the ways in which, depending on your situatedness of your culture, right, if you grew up in American puritanical culture, you've been taught that monogamy is the only way. And that if you really love someone, you'd be with just them.

And that one and only person, right? And so even like for myself, after been practicing non-monogamy for years, that's still deep within my unconscious. There's internalized mono normativity. It's just as much as there's other internalized things like internalized homophobia that creeps in despite being a queer person myself, right?

Like it creeps in. And so I think getting, um, that's where I. Practice self-compassion. When I watch those narratives start to happen, right? And say, okay, that is coming from an idea of scarcity, that there is one spot. What the hell is that? That's coming from the outside [00:18:00] world? I'm gonna write a new narrative.

I am secure. There is enough space for all of us, right? And I think that's just already reminding me of your second definition of compersion, right? The ways where we can have that initial reaction, but what are we telling ourselves? From there, what's the narrative? What are the values that we're grounding into, rather than that initial reaction where I'm panicking that I haven't heard from my partner.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And I think in terms of cultural narratives, what I find to be very interesting and why I often talk about my personal journey in the podcast space is because I grew up in puritanical culture. I grew up with a purity ring. And so back in the day, yes. Back in the day, yes.

Mm-hmm. Back in the day, I was very much so taught that I was gonna marry a man and it was only one man for the rest of my life. And so all of that sort of sort of narrative you can imagine, so it's been a couple of psychedelic paradigm shifts for myself to get to this space now. Um. [00:19:00] So when I look back on that paradigm, yes, there was only one person that you were gonna be with.

And particularly in that paradigm, I was taught that a man and a woman should never be alone together again. Like what is queerness? That was not even a thing in their world. But man and a woman should never be alone together because you would just fall to your fleshy desires and just immediately start to have sex and all that sort of stuff, right?

Yeah.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: So even after I started to get out of that Christian paradigm, I remember dating my boyfriend at the time and he was like, oh, I'm gonna go get coffee with one of my friends from college. I lost my shit. I lost my shit. I was so jealous. I was like, you're gonna go hang out with another woman.

You're gonna spend quality time with another platonic connection. What?

Dr. Marie Thouin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oh my gosh. That is so real. So real. And you know, like, I think we all have some level of conditioning like that. Yes. You know, and I feel. So blessed that I've been able [00:20:00] to meet men in my life because I mostly date men.

And you know, I, I mean I've mostly dated men who were very comfortable with me having a lot of male friends. Right? Yeah. And I don't think that for granted, because yeah, we all grow up with that kind of code and I mean, it makes me so happy when I also can date a man who has a lot of women friends, because I don't wanna be the only woman in their life.

Dr. Nicole: Right. Totally.

Dr. Marie Thouin: That is a lot of pressure.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. I would straight up get in trouble at the time with my Christian boyfriend. If I had other guy friends, I would get in trouble. Like, and I say that word in trouble in the patriarchal sense of what it fucking means to get in trouble with a man who controls you straight up.

So I think it's, I, I, I guess I talk about all of that in context because that's kind of like the starting point of my relationship with jealousy and conversion. Mm-hmm. Is complete threat to anyone of the opposite gender. Because that was the paradigm I existed, is that there was only two and that I was straight and [00:21:00] all that.

Right. So, yes, at the time, any sort of woman with a male was a complete threat. I think the second you become queer and then you're like, oh shit, everyone's a possibility. It makes it all complicated, which is so beautiful and I fucking love it. But you know, that's like the tipping point once you realize that.

Well, so they can't have any friends at all. Oh no. You know, it's just, I know, you know. Right. That's when things there's to shift. Um mm-hmm. But, but I say that as someone who then like. The first time, um, I was dating someone who said they were polyamorous. I looked at them and I said, if you loved me, it would be me and only me.

Mm-hmm. And I meant that in every full sense of the word. And so just all of the hops, unchange, it has taken to be a fully like polyamorous relationship. Anarchist now. Oh my God. Yes. Whoa.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Oh my gosh. I'm so curious. Were there like highlights on that path of transformation for you from one paradigm to the other?

[00:22:00] Like were there like moments or tools or experiences that really took you to a different place? Or was it really gradual? Like one experience at a time, day after day?

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Uh, probably yes and right, always. Mm-hmm. I think definitely deciding to do your dissertation on the topic helps a lot every day that you're, you're researching it for sure.

Um, but yeah, there were definitely big moments. I think one of the first things that's coming to mind is finding someone who, that partner who's hiking right now that I love dearly, someone who had been in the community for 10 plus years, someone who had so much more security experience navigating this and who was patient with me as I ebbed my way into it, was one of the biggest life changers I think, because there's so much to unpack and so to have someone who's stable and grounded and says, yeah, like.

Go play with other people, go date other people. Go fall in love with other people. I'm [00:23:00] secure. It was such a model when I started having to do the reverse of having my other partners, um, explore other connections. I would think about that partner and what they had modeled for me in terms of possibility and security.

And it was really, really big. And I think that one of the other big things too is building more relationships. I've always talked about the ways where if we think about intimate connections as as a resource, and I, I really do believe they are a resource. Mm-hmm. As much as we need food, water, we need love.

And the more that I've built multiple relationships of love and connection, the easier I have found conversion because there is not so much of a threat. This is not my one source of water. Mm-hmm. When I have multiple flows of rivers into me, I'm not so concerned. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole: Oof.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Oh yeah. Well that really resonates and that [00:24:00] totally just comes into my roadmap of compersion mm-hmm.

That I discussed in the book, you know, which is that compersion emerges from a multitude of factors in an ecosystem. It's not like you can do this one thing, you know, in your brain and boom, you're gonna feel compersion. Right. It is about cultivating a fertile terrain for it, and that includes, you know.

Individual factors that includes relational factors with your partners and metamours and that includes community. Yeah. Because the people that you surround yourself with, like you said, you know, like will either pour into your cup and make you feel more resourced and resilient and prepared and abundant or maybe not.

So the more you do have that fertile ecosystem around you, then the more you feel like you can give and be flexible and have the kind of bandwidth that you need to [00:25:00] actually move to a different paradigm. 'cause for sure it's difficult to do that if you feel like you're living in scarcity.

Dr. Nicole: Totally.

Totally. Yeah. I think this is where I think about my work with psychedelic assisted psychotherapy and the power of the set and setting of the drug. I think everyone wants to have that good trip. Like, I want the com conversion. I want to have the good trip. I don't wanna have a bad, scary trip and experience jealousy.

And it's like, hey, all of it is possible. You know, the, for all of us who think, oh, I've been having so many psychedelic trips. I'm so deep into poly, I'll never be jealous again. It, it's gonna happen. It happens depending on the set and setting, right? How big's the dose where I just think there's a level of humility.

We should always have that, that psychedelic could always slap you a little bit harder than anything. Um, but so much of it dependent on your set and setting. Right? So thinking about in terms of your set, the mindset, the narratives, the ways that I grew up in that specific paradigm, [00:26:00] that being so deeply influential into the narratives, as well as that example of the mom versus the friend.

Like, what are the narratives of scarcity versus abundance that I'm telling myself and the threat and also the setting, though the relationship, right. If someone is giving you breadcrumbs of affection

Dr. Marie Thouin: mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole: How the hell are you gonna feel conversion for them and their other dynamics?

Dr. Marie Thouin: I know

Dr. Nicole: you shouldn't, you shouldn't, you know, like jealousy makes sense in that world.

Right?

Dr. Marie Thouin: Right, right. It's like if you're starving and someone takes, you know, a bite from your plate and gives it to someone else. It's hard to feel happy for them. It's really, really hard. But if you feel like you're satiated and someone takes a bite from your overflow and gives it to someone else, you're like, great.

Yeah, that makes sense. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It doesn't take something away from my own resources. Yeah, absolutely. That makes all the [00:27:00] difference.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. And I think a big thing that I've noticed too is the, the orbits, how, how the frequency of the people that are in your lives, right. And as well as the, the meaning making of who they are.

So I was like, I, I nerd it out. I, I it's physics, right? Force, gravitational force and attachment is equal to mass times acceleration. So the mass, like the, the narrative of who this person is, what sort of role are they playing in the significance of the vision of your dream and who they are with you, as well as the acceleration in your orbit.

How frequent are you seeing them? Right? So, mm-hmm. I've found that the people that orbit much closer to me, the people that I see often throughout a week consistently, who the fear and difficulty of tapping into conversion is so much higher. Then a comment partner or someone that I see once every couple of months, like that conversion space.

So easy. Again, I think it's about [00:28:00] threat, fear, all the narratives, but the closer it gets to importance and weight. Tying back to what you said earlier, right? Love and fear, woof. The closer we get to that, the more fear and the difficulty, it can be tapping into that conversion.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Mm-hmm. Oh my gosh. Yeah.

There's so many things I could say about that. And also I would add a discussion of power dynamics. Sure. Because oftentimes, you know, there might be a power dynamic where, okay, we're spending this amount of time, but I would like to spend more and you would like to spend less. Or you know, like who is perceived to like the other person more?

Mm-hmm. There's those. Sometimes very subtle dynamics of, you know, like scarcity versus feeling like there's a lot of love to share that can really play into it. Like if I have a partner who I perceive as being a little needy, I will easily have compersion if they have someone else that can help [00:29:00] meet their needs, because that's a relief from the pressure I might otherwise feel to fulfill all of their needs, even if that feels like a lot.

Uh, but if I have a partner who I feel like, gosh, I don't have enough of their time and attention, then. Them finding another partner might feel like, wow, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna end up with crumbs. I'm gonna have even less, I'm gonna have even more of this feeling of deprivation. And you know, that could happen with two different people that I see once a week each, you know, like there's this extra layer of power and subtleties and what do I really want?

Right? And like you said, what does this person mean for me and my kind of cosmology of how I see my life? Right? Right. And same thing with Metamours. Who's that person? How do they make me feel? Do they make me feel insecure? Did they make me feel validated [00:30:00] and valued? Do they make me feel threatened and distressful?

Yep. Do they make me feel disgusted? Like, oh, how could you date this person? That's gross. Or that would not occur to me to have this person in my intimate ecosystem. Or am I attracted to them? And I'm kind of turned on that my partner is dating them and maybe I wanna participate, or

Dr. Nicole: for sure,

Dr. Marie Thouin: somehow there's an erotic charge there.

There's so many factors.

Dr. Nicole: Totally.

Dr. Marie Thouin: And those meanings that we attribute to people that will absolutely result in more conversion, less conversion, more easily accessed, embodied conversion, maybe more attitudinal conversion. Oh gosh, it's such a. Isn't it fun, fascinating and complex system.

Dr. Nicole: I love it. I love this.

It's like, yes, it's so dynamic, right? Yeah. There's so many different things. I was just thinking, yeah. Oftentimes when I, I, I think I notice that when I am also [00:31:00] attracted to the person that my partner is attracted to, I'm way more jealous. 'cause there's also a drive for me and that person, and I think mm-hmm.

Usually when we're attracted to people, there's something we admire or see in them. Maybe sometimes we, some, sometimes things we don't even think we have in ourselves, right? Mm-hmm. So then I think it can up the jealousy factor versus when I see someone I'm like, oh, I'm not that attracted to 'em. They're okay.

And then my partner likes them. I'm like, yeah. Great. Like have fun, you know, versus someone I desire and then seeing that they des Oh no. You know? And as is, there's also the space of cool. We could all play and have fun together and that's also a joyous, but I, I think I've noticed that often when I'm also attracted, there's like this added edge to it of fear of like, what if this person's better or all of that.

Um, yeah. Yeah. But wow, just the power of also acknowledging the, um, the chasing of the partner, the partner that is, um, the partner that maybe you are chasing. If that's the energy dynamics we wanna say it as is you're reaching for more and more from that person [00:32:00] to feel them go away feeling like such a loss versus the partner who is clinging to you.

And then that feeling like such a relief. That is such a big insight. I'm kind of like digesting and chewing right now and thinking about my dynamics of how that impacts. Yeah. Which ones feel more of a heightened sense of jealousy versus conversion. Oof. Yeah.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Wow. I know it almost feels like a little dark to talk about because I think oftentimes we wanna talk about compersion as this just glorious, empathetic, altruistic phenomenon of like, wow, it's a virtue, it's something that you just do because you love so much.

But then when we start dissecting like, why does it come up? Or why does it not? I mean, of course our ego mechanisms are at play and you know, if we benefit from a certain situation, right, we're more likely to feel conversion and if we don't think we benefit and that is so human, that is not something I wanna shame or [00:33:00] put down.

But it's interesting to understand sometime the, the difference between the, I think the ideological ideal that we place on a concept like conversion and how it really shows up in reality.

Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. 'cause we're always trying to keep ourselves safe. Whether we are consciously aware of that or unconsciously, we're trying to keep ourselves safe.

So if my partner really likes that very attractive person that I equally find attractive, oh my God, what a threat. What a threat. So then, and, and I might not be thinking that in a conscious way, right? But I might start to feel it in my body. I might start to feel that tightness in my chest, that turning in my stomach, and then we're already in the fight flight, freeze, right?

It's that much harder to get back into a conversion state. So being able to, I always talk about the importance of regulating with the body first, right? Because again, the attraction to someone else, hearing that as a threat. That is a classically conditioned cultural narrative [00:34:00] and it is producing a somatic response in my body.

And I first wanna work with the somatic response, you know, like why we're trying to calm ourselves down when our bodies are already activated. So being able to start there. I think once you, you work on that somatic state and you're regulated, that's when we can make our choices about our value system.

So I usually, how this would go with a partner would, they'd be like, oh, I found this really cute person. They asked me on a date. I'd feel the stomach turn, oh my God, my God. Great. Okay, I'm gonna take a deep breath at that. Like, wow, okay, I'm really excited about this. Can you tell me more about who this person is?

Like? But I had to take that initial deep breath and it's much easier now, and I think. We're really, really honest at the beginning. It's lots of crying. Lots of crying at the beginning when you hear that first comment, you know? And then now it just eases with time. But it was always that active choice of like grounding a body.

And then [00:35:00] how do I want to choose to show up?

Dr. Marie Thouin: Yes. Oh my gosh. I love that. Both the honoring of what is actually going on and really being with yourself and not abandoning yourself in favor of an ideology. Right. But then in the same breath, or the next breath, asking yourself really, who am I? And how do I show up?

Because that's really who am I, I think, is how do we show up to ourselves and to other people. Mm-hmm. So those things are not mutually exclusive. They're very complimentary. And I think that's the crux of transformation, honestly. Totally. Being with what is, and then asking that question, how do I show up now?

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And the empowerment of it, right? Like I get to choose. Sure. That initial reaction that my body had, that fear was not my choice, but now I'm gonna choose to take the deep breath. [00:36:00] I'm gonna choose to ground in these values, right? Like that empowerment there is so important. And I think that that's a big shift from a lot of what we hear about romance and relationships, right?

There's often, I think even at the worst context, if we go to the full. The full intensity of it is that like in some states in America, you could murder other people out of passion. Mm-hmm. And it'd be allowed because it was romantic passion and that you murdered the other person because you were in the throes of love and that's what you do.

Whoa. Whoa. Right. So like there's this level of like, when you're in love, you're uncontrollable. You're just overcome by the emotions. That's why I had to send that text to that guy that's been bread crumbing me for so long. It's 'cause I'm so in love with him. I'm gonna follow these emotions versus learning.

Oh wow. No, we actually have control over ourselves and we can make informed choices. And so I think that starting in that much darker place to, to realizing that, yeah, you can have a full reaction of even [00:37:00] fear. And grounding and deciding, I'm gonna show up with conversion as a choice, underlying choice, I'm gonna step into conversion.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Oh, it's fascinating. You know, the idea of how do we interact with our emotions, you know, and oftentimes emotions like jealousy and fear do feel like an altered state. Yeah. When we go into a fight or flight response, like in that moment, you know, we might not feel like we have a choice, but Yep.

You know, of course it's the art of being human to actually find even that and of spaciousness in those moments that we realize that we do have some level of choice about how to act out. Yeah. Oof. That is really, totally big stuff. Um, totally. And I like the idea of not seeing my emotions as my enemies.

But also not being a [00:38:00] victim of my emotions. Right. And I think those two things go together. Yes. It's like, okay, you're not my enemy. I get to be with you, but also I'm not gonna be victimized by you. Right. You know, as if I were at your mercy.

Dr. Nicole: Totally. Yes. So important because our emotions are always indicating something.

Right. They're indicating something. Something's either misaligned, there's a desire, there's a fear, there's something there. So how can we get curious, right? So rather than attacking or being angry at our reaction, how can we sit with it? And then invite curiosity, okay, where do we think this might be coming?

What are some of the threads that are underneath it? And then like you're saying, not being a victim, being able to decide how you wanna respond from there. That's a very different relationship. And as you were talking, it was making me think even just about like panic attacks as someone who was.

Diagnosed with generalized anxiety back in the day and became a psychologist and therapist. Right. There was a [00:39:00] lot of learning to realize that panic attacks are both a mix of psychological and a somatic response, and it starts to feel like it's taking you over and it is happening, but to remember that that's not inevitable, I can actually slow my mind down and like take that deep breath when I'm starting to feel that, that, you know, tightness of the breath and so it was such a learning journey to realize that.

Yeah, my emotional reactions, my somatic reactions, I'm not a victim to them. I actually have the ability to work with them.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. It's like reclaiming the steering wheel of your system. Totally. Yes. That's very powerful and very, not only personally transformative work, but eventually I think very collectively transformative work.

Imagine if. Everyone could have these kinds of tools and that kind of awareness and that kind of internal, um, empowerment and [00:40:00] mobility, you know, to really get to decide who they're gonna be. Like, what kind of world would we be living in right now?

Dr. Nicole: Mm. I love the feeling to that world. I really do. Oh, wow.

Dr. Marie Thouin: It feels so hard and be very different. But, you know, those kinds of conversations like the one we're having, give me hope, you know? Mm-hmm. That we all, you know, like can learn these skills and we all can change ultimately. Right. If we can do it individually, that means we can't do it collectively.

Dr. Nicole: Right?

Absolutely. And I think within that, one of the biggest things is. Exposure therapy, you know, because when it's, it's like any athlete or any sport, right? Um, I, I practice yoga and teach yoga. That's really been a great metaphor for me. And rock climbing, that's been my metaphor. 'cause I rock climb you two.

Cool. Well great. Then maybe we can nerd out on some rock climbing metaphors. Right. Okay. I love it. Uh, [00:41:00] okay, cool. Um, because the first time you go and climb, you're scared shitless. I don't know about you, but I was scared shitless the first time I got to the top and they're like, okay, you come down now. I'm like, what?

This is so high up. Are you kidding me? What? Oh my god. You know? Right,

Dr. Marie Thouin: right.

Dr. Nicole: Um, do you lead climb at all?

Dr. Marie Thouin: No, I do top rope.

Dr. Nicole: Okay, cool. So, okay, so getting into lead climbing for me. Oh my God, Marie. Wow. Oh my God. So much somatic work because I was so terrified about that weight to, oh my God.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Wow.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Wow.

Yeah. That's been my biggest exposure therapy of my life thus far. I've just like gentle exposure, safe partner, gentle exposure, safe partner. And I feel much better about it now, right? Mm-hmm. But,

Dr. Marie Thouin: mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole: I, it was one of the, like the episodes that came out around that time where I was doing that, I was talking a lot in this way of like, my body is reacting in ways I can't control.

And it was like I wanted to climb and then I would start to feel [00:42:00] my like. Gaze narrow. My chest would be tight. I would feel kind of lightheaded, and I'm like, wow, I'm going through a little bit of like a trauma. This is interesting in ways that I was like, I'm not controlling this, right? Mm-hmm. And so it felt very disempowering.

'cause I'm like, why is this happening? I want to climb. Why is my body reacting? And so, just even Penny, back to what you were saying earlier, having compassion that had meant like, okay, my body's having a response. Mm-hmm. Let's take small steps. What feels reasonable today? Maybe that was one route and then the rest of it was top rope.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Mm-hmm. Right.

Dr. Nicole: Just gentle. Gentle. Because we can't just force ourselves off the deep end. Right?

Dr. Marie Thouin: Right. Yeah. And it's not always easy to take the ego out of it because, I mean, especially in rock climbing. For me, I wanna do it. I wanna do it. I wanna be the most badass version of myself and the most climber in the.

In the gym. Yes. Yeah. I, it's [00:43:00] such a lesson to be humbled over and over again. And that means sometimes, yeah. Taking smaller steps. Mm-hmm. And I think that so applies to our relationships with ourselves and with others. You know, how can we take small steps when we need that for progress?

Dr. Nicole: Right. Exactly. And let's just name that that is hands down, the most badass version of ourself, the self that goes, okay, I'm ready to stretch here and push through a little bit of discomfort, but still stay grounded.

Maybe when I'm up there I'm gonna take some deep breaths and slow down and give myself that space. Like that is the most badass version of ourself. Right. Truly being in connection, listening to our bodies. Oh, you know, oh my gosh. Absolutely.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Absolutely. Mm-hmm. I would also apply that analogy to, you know, sometimes opening up, uh, yes.

Anonymous partnership. Where people might wanna go at different speeds and going at the speed of the slower [00:44:00] person as long as people are on board, not, you know, stalling and just totally resisting the whole project. But being able to go slow can actually be the fastest trajectory. Mm-hmm. And the, you know, the safest and the sa the fastest and just the most productive altogether.

Yeah, absolutely. And that can be so hard. That can absolutely bring up a lot of shame or a lot of frustration for the person who wants to go fast. Oh my gosh.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I've, I've been on both sides of that equation. Uhhuh? Uhhuh. Yeah. Right. Like when you're first starting being like, no, slow down, please. Like, no, I can't go to the sex party.

No, I'm not ready to watch you have sex with other people. No. You know, like any of that. So to then be on the other side and yeah, to feel both, both sides of it are very different emotions that come up. And so what does it mean to, to be a team, be on the same team with that person, and then also [00:45:00] to acknowledge the ways, you know, depending on what you're doing with your life, where that person might be slowing you down.

And is that a slowing down pace that you are willing to go into? There's a lot of benefit to slowing down with that person. Other times it's really not feasible. You might be in very different worlds. If I wanna go on that lead climbing trip, I need a lead climber. I can't, you know, just, you know, so you, you just have to acknowledge that there's not some sort of, um.

Uh, like betterment to being in one space than the other. They're just in different practices, different risk ratio tolerances that people feel comfortable with, right?

Dr. Marie Thouin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I was just actually doing a book launch party last night. Mm-hmm. Cool. Congrats. I know the podcast will be published probably in 2025, so this will be old news, but yeah.

Publishing my book now as we're recording in 2024 in July, and someone asked a question, you know, like, what about when people judge you, you know, [00:46:00] in your calling communities? What about when you're made to be a pariah because you are in pain and everyone wants you to feel compersion. Mm. You're kind of like the odd one out because you're not able to get there and get with the program.

Yeah, and that was a painful question to hear, but my response to that was ultimately when people are judging you, they just haven't gone through it. 'cause when someone has gone through that kind of really difficult experience, they're a lot less likely to judge the next person going through it because they know how hard it is.

Dr. Nicole: Right? Yes. And to continue with that metaphor then, as someone who was super scared about going to the sex parties, right. Than the ways where when you meet someone new, then you might even extra try to care. Take and be careful for them in ways when they say, actually I'm pretty okay, Nicole, you can go do it.

And I'm like, yeah, but I've been there and I know how scary it is. So I'm projecting onto you. You are [00:47:00] actually way more afraid than I am. Like, right, right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's a trickiness to add to it too, is when that partner says they're fine, but because you've gone through it, you know how scary it is and you're projecting like Totally, totally.

Yeah.

Dr. Marie Thouin: It's so hard to let people have their own experience. I don't know why we're wired to always project. But I, I do that too. It's so funny. We're funny creatures.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, I know. Exactly. Trying to, we're trying to get closer. Trying to understand. But like you're saying, I think the more that you've had more experience, the easier it is to have empathy.

I remember when I was trying to lead climb and I was talking to another lead climber and she's like, I don't dunno why people are scared. It's not that scary. And I was like thinking to myself, are you fucking kidding me? Like, I'm terrified out there. Like, this is so like, but she couldn't comprehend where I was at, right?

Mm-hmm. And so I think that in terms of non-monogamy, I try to put myself back into that first story I told [00:48:00] you when the partner looked at me and said, oh, I wanna do non-monogamy. And I said, are you kidding me? If you loved me, it would be me and only me. Yeah, it's hard to tap back into that previous consciousness now because I feel much more safe.

And I, I still get scared. I'm not, you know, above that. But like the things that scare me now are so much, or the things that scared me then are so much less triggering. And I think it's hard. 'cause if I tried to sit my younger self down and say, Hey, this is gonna be a tough journey, but it is going to get easier, I'd be like, you don't understand how scared I am.

Stop. You don't even get it. Like, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole: Like, whoa.

Dr. Marie Thouin: I know. I know. You know, I think, um, I mean, if we're gonna, if you are gonna allow me to dip into a bit of a spiritual talk Sure. Yeah. And feel like sometimes we just really need to have the entirety of an emotional experience.

Without, you know, wise [00:49:00] perspectives without telling ourselves, oh, it's gonna get better. You know, like, just to be in those darker spots within ourselves, in their entirety, and to feel like we can at some level, let ourselves be engulfed by them and just have the full range of that experience without trying to mm-hmm.

Fix it right away. I think that is actually really important for our spiritual evolution as humans. Mm-hmm. Or we could say psychological evolution or emotional evolution, like the line between spirituality and psychology is not that thick in my opinion. It's kind of I agree. Yeah. You know, it's very connected.

The soul. Yeah. Um, right, right. And that means we can actually expand our consciousness when we let ourselves actually face our fears in their entirety and survive them and, you know, wake up the next day and be like, okay, like, I am afraid. I was afraid, but. Things are okay right now. Mm-hmm. Have those [00:50:00] experiences and let ourselves have them.

I think it's, yeah. It, it's going, it's uncomfortable, but it's necessary. Yes.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. It's necessary and that there's

Dr. Marie Thouin: no shortcut.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. No, no, there's no way out, but through, right? You got, you gotta go through it and at some point you do pick yourself up, right? And we keep going. But yeah, to allow yourself that full space to feel it and to feel what you need to feel, I think that makes me think about the systems, right?

Capitalism, all these other systems and forces that will have major tragedies. Like on a grand scale in our country or community or close inner circle, and you have to show up to work the next day, right? Like, I don't have time to grieve. Are you kidding me? Right. So I think part of that is also our culture in ways that we don't create space to really feel these emotions.

So we're used to having to just like, next, next, next. Here we go, next thing, next thing, next thing. Mm-hmm. But the power of unpacking some of that, of getting deeper into [00:51:00] that. Oof. Um, in the psychedelic work, we would always use the metaphor because, you know, you take a psychedelic and then the stuff comes up to the surface way faster than you even expected, you know?

Mm-hmm. Like, so we would always talk about that kind of like a, um, a splinter, right? So when you have. Splinter in your finger, it actually hurts to try and start to pull it out, right? Mm-hmm. As you start to pull, you're feeling that pain, and so often we'll just say, Nope. Put it back, put it back, put it back.

Put it back. We're not gonna pull it out right now, but then we're walking around with this splinter getting triggered all these points, right? Versus, okay, wow, I'm gonna actually spend some time to be with this emotion, to process this emotion with communities, with a healer, right? And actually go through that pain of pulling it out, because in the long run.

There's so much more healing there. But in the short term, you have to go through that pain and really feel that,

Dr. Marie Thouin: right, right. Exactly. Like there's no anesthesia, there's no spiritual bypassing that's gonna help. I mean, [00:52:00] and it's funny 'cause I think people who have not necessarily worked with psychedelics might think like, oh yeah, like the drugs help, you know, or they make it easier.

Or, that's kind of an assumption that people make, but like No, I mean, it helps it come to the surface and you have to feel it all.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Dr. Marie Thouin: And I think it can, you know, catalyze also like that process and still you have to do the hard work of feeling it and processing it and embracing it and surrounding it and you know, right.

Reckoning with who you are.

Dr. Nicole: Yes. That's why it's so intense, right? And like preparing clients for the possibility of ego death and what that might bring up as an informed consent of ethical prep. Right? Because you're right, you could go into such a space that coming back to reality, you are not the same person.

Right? So there's there's so much there. And I, I, I do feel that way about non-monogamy, right? Like I have gone to spaces in [00:53:00] terms of my perspective of liberated love what we started this conversation out with, that I cannot go back into that box of that self way back in the beginning who was upset that my boyfriend was going to go get coffee with a platonic person.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole: There is no going back into that box now that I've stretched, that seems absurd to me.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. You've left that skin behind long time ago. Yeah. Yeah, and here's another reason to have hope, you know, for transformation is stop. When we do look back at who we were and we just know that we can't go back, and that we are in a more expanded place with more internal mobility, more access to who we are, more access to love and acceptance.

I think, you know, we have this extraordinary ability to transform and shed students, right?

Dr. Nicole: Yes. And so often my pleasure practice clients will [00:54:00] want to keep growing and evolving and expanding because that's the space we're all in, right? What does it mean to keep liberating love? And so they see that goal of compersion, deeper compersion, deeper compersion, and I try to invite them just to pause and see the beginning of their journey.

And I say, let's just hold on for a second. Because often we're beating ourselves up in this desire for more conversion. I'm still not there yet. I'm still not at whatever this yet is. And it's, it's gonna be different for all of us of where that is, right? But this, this beating ourselves up. And if we can look back a little bit and just see how far we've come, I think that often changes the frame to realize, wow, I've actually grown a lot over the years.

All these little steps, these little ways they're adding up over the years. And so changing that frame from, wow, I'm still not at the point of compersion. I want to, wow. I've come a long ways. I'm still transforming. There's still more to go and I know it's coming.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Absolutely, [00:55:00] absolutely. And then I talk about the spectrum of com conversion in my book as well as a way to normalize that conversion might come in different flavors and different intensities.

Mm-hmm. For a lot of people, the trajectory from feeling mostly jealousy and threat in their non-monogamous relationships to feeling mostly compersion Yeah. Is very gradual. Mm-hmm. And it's, you know, it's gonna change according to different context and different changes in the relationship ecosystem, but it's definitely not something that you should necessarily like look at as the end goal.

I think really focusing on the process, on the journey rather than the destination. Can yield just much better results. Because if you look at the conditions in which compersion flourishes, which are things like security and consent and transparency [00:56:00] and abundance of love, and yeah. Reassurance and community and self care, like all of these factors create this fertile terrain for a wonderful relationship.

Yeah. And rather than just focusing on com conversion as this, like, oh, I wanna feel this thing, right. Focus on cultivating that beautiful relational garden. Mm-hmm. And conversion might emerge here and there in different ways, different flavors, different shapes, but just focus on the garden and Right. And that is going to yield many fruits.

Dr. Nicole: Right, right, right. That cliche, like it's the journey, not the destination. Right? Yes, it applies. Yeah, it totally,

Dr. Marie Thouin: there's goddamn cliches that apply perfectly.

Dr. Nicole: Presence. Presence, right. The more we can get present with everything. Not always searching for, but acknowledging what is. And I'm really thankful too, that you had talked [00:57:00] about, uh, metamours.

I think that's a really big piece of this, at least for myself. I found so much benefit in getting to actually know my metamours. I found that, um, when it was more parallel or I hadn't met them before, there was so much, you know, the imagination is worse than the reality. That's why in horror films, they like to give you the dark.

They like to keep that part of it where your mind just. Pictures what the demon is, rather than actually giving you the picture. 'cause your mind is worse than reality. And so I think that oftentimes with Metamours, I noticed that I'd be projecting or these other things. And then actually getting to meet them, have my own relationship with them.

Whoa, that changed so much. 'cause now there's someone I know, there's someone in my network, there's someone in my community. And how much that, that has really changed the access into com conversion.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Absolutely. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Um, I always, in my own life, when I get envious or jealous, [00:58:00] getting to know the person that I'm envious of.

Pretty much always dispels the edge of it because I soon learn like, okay, I might have put them on a pedestal, or I might have romanticized how perfect and powerful they were. And if I start learning about their lives, I realize that, oh, we're all fighting our own battles and you know, I start humanizing this person and then they start seeming like less of an enemy and more of like a peer.

Mm-hmm. So it is powerful to just really turn towards even when it feels threatening to do so, but actually like go closer rather than further away, rather than cultivating the distance, actually cultivating connection. And that is mm-hmm. To me, like a big way that we can transform.

Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah. That was making me also think about our relationship to self.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Mm.

Dr. Nicole: Burning towards ourself. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think like, oh, [00:59:00] is it, is it being a woman in this society that since my, you know, birth, I've been sold the Disney Romance fairytale, that my highest goal in life would be in, you know, to find myself in a romantic relationship where I am loved, right? Mm-hmm.

That is the highest goal that I could be in, versus seeing what at, at one, like seeing, hey, a whole community. Like, let's get you connected to a whole community, not one person, and also a self, to be with myself. Mm-hmm. To actually love myself, to be secure with myself in community, right? Not just this one person.

So I think that. Not all of us have a secure attachment to ourselves to trust that should this person actually end up leaving us, which is a possibility that we would be okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Yeah. I think that is one of the foundations for being able to [01:00:00] share the happiness of others is to know that we'll be okay if we don't feel deeply that we can be okay without this person in this role.

We are going to be, of course, so vulnerable to feeling threatened at every turn. And it's easier said than done, but it is something that we can cultivate through, you know, self-care, self love, self-acceptance, um, really practicing having our own back. Yeah, totally. Not to dismiss, yeah. The power of relationships, because of course we're not meant to live alone.

Right. In isolation. Right. We're a social creature and we need to have each other's back. Mm-hmm. But there is this rootedness that we can cultivate, like drinking from our own source and also our own kind of spiritual connection to Right. A bigger whole or a bigger collective. And [01:01:00] that is so anchoring and so grounding.

Mm-hmm. And it allows us to approach our relationships with a healthy degree of autonomy. Mm-hmm. And interconnected autonomy. Right. That's still this sense of, okay, I can stand solidly rooted in my own self and you can stand in your own self and we can interact from that rather than feeling like mm-hmm My only source of love and okayness in the world is from you loving me in this particular way.

Right. Losing me.

Dr. Nicole: Right, right. Validating

Dr. Marie Thouin: my existence.

Dr. Nicole: Right. Exactly. Exactly. And I appreciate the words of interconnectedness because so often in our western context it's like, ah, love yourself before you love m and anybody. And if I've learned anything in psychology, it's that that's a chicken and an egg situation here.

Friends like, like we need good community that loves you to love yourself. You know, just so, [01:02:00] so it's just this, we often go the self, the self, the self. But it is the self in relationship. So it's that deep. Yes. And to know that. I am secure in who I am, and I'm also secure in the community that I've built.

I'm secure in all these connections that I've built, and even if I move to a new location, I trust in myself to build another connection of community and people that love me. And so it's not this one person, these two people, these three people, whoever it is, it's the wider community and myself. And I think that that makes it so much easier.

Again, like we're saying, to tap into an abundance mindset, which makes it significantly less threatening when your partner is with someone else, and that much easier to step into conversion.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Oh yeah,

Dr. Nicole: absolutely.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Yeah. And that is very powerful, what you said about, well, even if I were to move, I could make new connections, new friends.

I have that ability to care for people and I have a lot to give ultimately, like I think that [01:03:00] assurance. To be able to look at yourself and saying like, yes, I'm not empty. I have a lot to offer. I have a lot to share. Mm-hmm. And you could, you know, take me and drop me, you know, in a different location and I would be able to connect with people.

Yeah. That is mm-hmm. I think like a, a big vector of, um, safety within ourself.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. And I think also I, this, I was watching this YouTube video that was talking about tiktoks. Now we're just diving deep, like through levels of social media, a YouTube video talking about the tiktoks of trad wives.

Have you heard about trad wives?

Dr. Marie Thouin: No. What is that? It's like, it's like,

Dr. Nicole: yeah, it's, it's, uh, traditional wives, which if you get into the context of how traditionally. Wives were working on farms and cultivating and collecting crops too, folks. Mm-hmm. But in this concept of what a trad wife means, it means someone staying at home with the [01:04:00] kids, choosing that sort of lifestyle.

Um, and this video is talking about the ways all these women were saying, oh, like, it's okay. My husband is never gonna leave me. Like I know that I know he's not going to leave me. And all the other people who had gotten out of that lifestyle of trad life saying, yeah, you thought that all the time. And one, he might, but two, like the people who were saying that left the culture, you might want to leave him.

You might want to leave him. And so I'm just curious too, particularly in the gender socialization as women, right. Particularly because of our context of in the past we couldn't have credit cards. We couldn't have any financial security. So we've always needed men needed men needed men. And despite the fact that you and I live in a different culture now, that's still deep within our roots.

And so this idea of needing the man, needing the man, needing the man, what if he leaves me? What if he finds, hold on, hold on, hold on. What if you leave him? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. How often does that go through your head? That I'll tell you that does not [01:05:00] frequently go through my head of jealousy. I'm usually like, what if they leave me?

What if they leave me not? Wow. What if I actually find other people? Whoa. And I just, I think finding balance in that we should not always be fearing the threat, but at least knowing that it's a both. Yes. And like they might leave you, but you might also find other people yourself, my dear, that call to you.

And it's not always this sense of them just leaving.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Oh my gosh. Yeah. Like that actually makes me think about dating. 'cause I'm also a dating coach and I help people with the whole process of, you know, yeah. Looking for partnership. Yeah. And oftentimes when people are using online dating and going on dates, the first question they ask is, is this person gonna like me?

Are they like me? Mm-hmm. Are they gonna choose me? And that becomes the focus rather than do I like them? How do I feel about them? Do I wanna, you know, go on a date. It's, it's interesting how a lot of us are quick to devalue ourselves and just put the power in the hands of [01:06:00] other people. And I see it in all different gender and sexual orientations, um, configurations.

But I think particularly in women, you know, who are socialized in a heteronormative culture, you know, like the idea that yes, it's the man who is the chooser can be so ingrained. So ingrained.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. If we could step into more an abundance mindset of all this, Ugh. The empowerment, the trust, just mm-hmm.

I feel it now in this very moment, just in my own experience of what it means to be sitting in more confidence of my own self and all of these things that we're talking about and the ways that com conversion is so much easier to tap into when I know that I am secure in my community. When I know that I'm secure in who I am and the relationship with that person is secure, I just don't know how I could package it into a small little [01:07:00] box for my younger self to take in a pill form.

Right? Like how do you, how, oh, I just pinning back to your question of what were they? Were there these big moments or not? I almost feel like it is just this continual practice of each day stretching a little bit further, a little bit further and a little bit further, and then one day kind of looking back and being like, damn.

I can touch my toes, you know, like, wow, wow.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Uhhuh, Uhhuh. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I didn't need to like text this person anxiously because they didn't text me on time. Oh, wow. That's like touching your toes emotionally or Totally. So many different ways. Like so many wins.

Dr. Nicole: Totally. Yeah. I think the last time that I experienced that was like one of my partners having, like, there was a time in the past where they had kissed someone and I felt that full, like truly like panic attack level sort of experience where I could feel my body reacting.

I could feel that [01:08:00] tightness. I felt my gaze narrow, and then the next time they, they had gone on another date and kissed someone and me saying, okay. I feel a little bit activated, but I'm certainly not on the floor crying. That's progress. We can celebrate that today. Right? Like what does it mean to celebrate that and not again, like we were saying earlier too, not expect to be at full conversion.

Just to see that like, wow, I've, I've progressed a lot from crying on the floor. This is actually a really big day. Yes.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, um, making positive associations with those moments can be so powerful. I actually have a coaching client who. Just opened her relationship not too long ago, but she's learned to create small wins and small vacations for herself when her husband goes out on a date and she orders sushi and she just put his, her favorite show on, has a glass of wine and you know, is getting to the point where she doesn't want him to cancel his dates anymore because she's like, no, I have [01:09:00] a date with myself.

This is gonna be fun. I don't get to have that. I love that. Yeah,

Dr. Nicole: yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I will say after those days of like feeling that intensity, um. The rebound of having to reground yourself, like say, I felt that level of intense fear. What I would have to do afterwards is, is vary from a psychological standpoint, like of course, do the somatic work, but to say like, Hey, I, I am gonna buy that sushi, which I did do that day.

I delivered sushi to myself and got some sushi, right? And then also, I am a lovely human being who has many important, beautiful traits and qualities. And I feel secure in myself. I feel secure in this relationship. And there are literal journal entries of me just like writing that again and again and again until I felt that in my body.

And so I will say the glow. The glow that you feel after going from crying to [01:10:00] reassuring yourself to standing up tall and strong. Oh my God. I would be coming out dancing. I'm like, I got this. Mm-hmm. And it was such a glow that I, I don't know how else to describe of that trip.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Mm-hmm. Oh, that's gorgeous.

That's gorgeous. Mm-hmm. And I'm so happy that you are, you know, like becoming a psychologist and probably by the time this episode is coming out, you are a psychologist and you're able to help people with that kind of process. I mean, I think it takes more of us, you know, like, I think coaching and therapy are such powerful modalities to help, you know, take people a little bit by the hand and be like, okay, here, here's how you can change.

You know, like, not in. Like, you know, a way where like, oh, you're broken and we need to fix you. Yeah. But like, here's a path of transformation that is actually possible to walk on. Right. And see progress and see change.

Dr. Nicole: Right.

Dr. Marie Thouin: That [01:11:00] is such a gift to humanity. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. And to know that you're not alone in it.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Yes, exactly. Exactly.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Yeah. Yeah. We're all pulling each other up.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, it's been such a beautiful conversation and I, I wanna hold some space too. I always check in with each guest and just see if there's anything else that you wanted to share with the listener. Otherwise I can guide us towards a closing question.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Um, gosh, I don't really have anything that pops into my mind right now. Thank you so much for this conversation.

Dr. Nicole: Of course. Yeah's. So fun. It was really lovely and inspiring. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. These conversations, uh, pinning back to what you said earlier about some relationships that bring you life right.

And energy or take them away. Always in this podcast space, I'm having such energizing conversations that bring more life into my, uh, my world, and so I'm always very thankful, so thank you. Oh,

Dr. Marie Thouin: beautiful. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Nicole: Yay. [01:12:00] Mm-hmm. All right, so I'll take a deep breath with you.

So the last question that I ask every guest on the show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

Dr. Marie Thouin: Ooh,

Dr. Nicole: yeah.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Let's go with not experiencing emotional compersion. Mm-hmm. All the time. Mm-hmm. I think one of the biggest questions slash complaints I get in reaction to my work and my research on conversion is a version of, oh gosh, if I don't feel compersion, I'm not feeling poly enough and I'm not feeling good enough.

And I just want to reassure people that that's not the case. You know, like it is not it. It is contextual and it is absolutely normal not to feel it right away or not to [01:13:00] feeling in every context, or not even to, you know, maybe you never feel that blissful kind of archetypal compersion feeling, and that is totally all right.

And that doesn't mean you can't be a loving, caring, empathetic partner and human being.

Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah. To choose those values, right? Whether you feel it or not, but choose the values that are in alignment. That's one of my favorite things to do with clients is to, uh, before they do the psychedelic trip of non-monogamy, to get really clear on your values, both for yourself and how you wanna show up for other people, right?

And so, even those days of me crying on the floor, right? What did it mean to ground in my values? Because I'll tell you, I was certainly not feeling conversion in those moments. It was lots of fear, right? So like mm-hmm,

Dr. Marie Thouin: mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole: What does it mean to ground in your values? And that always is a choice that we can make.

Yeah. Well said. Yeah. Thank you for that. Uh, this was such a great [01:14:00] conversation. And before I let you go, where can people find you? Where can they find your book and all of the work that you're doing?

Dr. Marie Thouin: Absolutely. Well, people can easily find me@marietwon.com and. Everything is plugged into there. My free 30 minute exploratory session, as well as all my resources on com conversion and mindful dating.

And I also have a full other website dedicated to my com conversion work, and that is what is compersion.com and there's extra resources and a worksheet that people can download to sort of self-assess, um, the strengths and weaknesses in their conversion ecosystem. That's a really great tool to bring along with your coaching or therapy sessions.

And yeah, just follow me on Instagram as well. I'm at Love Insight dating.

Dr. Nicole: I'll have all of that linked below in the show notes, and I just wanna say thank you [01:15:00] for coming onto the show again.

Dr. Marie Thouin: Thank you so much. This was lovely. Yeah. So much fun for doing these amazing work you do in the world. Ah, thank you so much.

I appreciate that. Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: If you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast, and head on over to modern anarchy podcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I wanna thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.

 
 
 

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