224. The Anarchy of Sex Manifesto with Sally Emm

Dr. Nicole: [00:00:00] Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Sally join us for a conversation about the subconscious power structures that prevent us from embodying our pleasure. Together we talk about developing the language of pleasure. Nerding out on the concept of hierarchy and our collective need for connection. Hello, dear listener and welcome back to Modern Anarchy.

I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Nicole. I am a sex and relationship [00:01:00] psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration therapy, and I am also the founder of the Pleasure Practice supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships.

Dear listener. Uh, it is such a joy to be bringing these rich, juicy conversations to you with other theorists and thought leaders. We are pushing the edge of the conversation on expansive relationships, expansive, pleasure, and liberation. And Sally was such a source of wisdom and insight into anarchist theory that I think all of you, dear listeners, or I know all of you dear listeners, are really gonna love this episode.

And the title I talk to Sally about how I keep looking for this. Where is the anarchy of sex? Where is the anarchy of sex? And a year ago when I recorded this with [00:02:00] Sally, uh, they wisely reminded me that, uh, I need to write that. And we talked about even the hierarchy of books over podcasts with books being more serious and, uh.

Yeah, podcasts are just as valuable and I am so, so delighted to be sharing this episode with you because unlike a book, you get to hear my full voice. You get to hear me work through the complexities of a year ago trying to find the language between wanting to use a dildo on someone and feeling also like with that same person I didn't wanna make out them right.

Things that at the time I was really struggling with to understand the deconstruction of the intimacy escalator, right? The expectations of what intimacy should look like, and specifically sex, right? Just like the relationship escalator, there is a unconscious cultural expectation that sex looks like A, B, C, D.

And so this conversation with Sally, I was getting [00:03:00] into some of the nuance of unpacking our. Cultural messages about sex. And Jay Listener, you know this is not the last episode where I'll be talking about these concepts and ideas, and I'm so grateful that you're tuning in. I'm so grateful that you are learning and expanding with me because this is how we bring the pleasure revolution.

Alright, dear listener, if you want to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and resources@modernanarchypodcast.com, linked in the show notes below. And I wanna say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters. You are supporting the long-term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content free and accessible to all people.

So thank you. If you wanna join the Patreon community, get exclusive access into my research and [00:04:00] personal exploration, then you can head on over to patreon.com/modern Anarchy podcast, also linked in the show notes below. And with that, dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love and let's tune in to today's episode.

So the first question I ask each guest is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

Sally: Um, my name is Sally. I run a YouTube channel called Rel, which is short for our Norco relating, um, we're on hiatus right now, but I have some projects in the back burner. Yeah, I'm a relationship anarchist and a theorist, and.

I should have come up with a better way to introduce myself as I just realized. No,

Dr. Nicole: it's great. It's great. It's authentic and raw. Yeah. I'm excited to have you here and get to chat with you about thank relationship anarchy today. Yeah, me too. Me too. Totally. [00:05:00] I'd love to ask you the big question of, well what is relationship anarchy?

Sally: Yeah. 'cause a lot of people would have a different answer to that, which makes it a little bit difficult. So it's a good first question. Um, for me and for the way that I go about doing it, I consider it to be, um, not a separate thing from political anarchism, but just the way that that theory is applied in my interpersonal relationships.

So if you're familiar with anarchist theory, then great. But if you're listening and you're like, I only know about ethical non monogamy, perhaps that, you know, that could be a little bit more confusing.

Dr. Nicole: For sure, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I would love to hear more about that. Do you think you could kind of like show those two lanes and how they kind of cross over and diverge.

Sally: I can definitely try.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I'll join you. I'll join you in the conversation. You're not alone here. Yeah. Thank, but I love to appreciate that. Really hear other perspectives. 'cause I see it, but we're all gonna see it differently. Yeah,

Sally: absolutely. Yeah. So for me, so anarchism definitionally from my perspective is about understanding and then working to mitigate [00:06:00] power imbalance hierarchy specifically.

So, you know, understanding various forms of oppression and the way that they affect ourselves and the people in our lives and the society that we live in. Um, so taking that and applying it to my interpersonal relationships Yeah. Is, is exactly what it sounds like. It's being a relationship with people and being in solidarity with those people as well.

They're not just, you know, around to provide value in my life, nor am I around to merely provide value in their lives. But we are, you know, whole people with complex histories and we showed up.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Sally: Not as blank canvases. So I think it's worthwhile to do that work of deconstructing. All of the various hierarchies and power imbalances in our relationships.

Dr. Nicole: Totally, totally. Yeah. I, um, recorded with Juan Carlos, um, who had wrote the book Relationship Anarchy. Mm-hmm. Have you read that one recently?

Sally: I haven't. They, uh, they offered to send it to me and I was like, I'm so terrible at reading physical books, but if it ever gets printed into audio, I'll be the first, first buyer.

Dr. Nicole: Well, you can listen to the podcast. Maybe that will be some sort of cue. [00:07:00] That would be helpful.

Sally: Gimme a little bit of what's in there. Yeah,

Dr. Nicole: absolutely. Totally, totally. So I talked, I talked to Juan about it and we were talking about the, um, that hierarchy being okay, but not hierarchy of authority. How does that land for you?

Sally: I hate it. Oh, tell me about it. But I'm also, well, I mean, it, it is what a lot of people sort of come into and I'm, I, yeah. I tend to blame Chomsky for this one. Mm-hmm. Um, he has this whole section of like finding justifiable hierarchies and, you know, it's really only the un unjustified hierarchies that we have to consider.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Sally: And I just don't really believe that that's true.

Dr. Nicole: Sure.

Sally: But then it also depends on how you're thinking of hierarchy, because a lot of people do come at it from the lens of, of it being sort of more of a method of organization rather than a, a system of oppression really. It's complex. Right. It's, it's, I wish it were easier to talk about.

I wish it were easier to write about. I wish I hadn't, uh, needed to spend, you know, the hundreds of hours of studying that I've done to kind of, sort of be able to [00:08:00] talk about Sure. The ideas in inside of it, but that idea, that hierarchy is. In any way, shape, or form? An okay thing grates on me personally, just 'cause of, um, the work that I do and the way that I go about doing it.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, sure. Yeah. And I feel like often for me it's, it's like I'm lacking language, you know? Mm-hmm. Or, or I'll see that with my clients who are exploring different types of relationship dynamics where they will say, oh, like she's friends with her, but they actually wanna embark on a real relationship. And I'm like, oh, like this language is like hurting me.

Like you already have a real, what do you mean? Ah, you know? And so I feel like some of this I get like locked in the, the lack, the lack of language that we have often in these spaces. And so I'd love to like pull our brains together and kind of like, think about this from two different points. 'cause Sure.

Like how do we sit with the fact that like, you know, I have a friend I've been close with for 10 years. Mm-hmm. And then. [00:09:00] A stranger, someone that I just meet and I start to connect with, how do we hold the, like, complexities of the, the years that we have built with that in, in a word that's not hierarchy.

Like what do we, what language do we wanna use for that?

Sally: Um, I'm not entirely sure that I have an alternative option for articulating this dynamic, to be honest.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Sally: Um, but I do kind of question the, the premise of it, of, you know, just because you've known someone for 10 years, that they sure automatically have more, um, I don't know, what, is it more, more of a connection to you, more of a, a particular kind of relationship with you?

I'm not entirely sure what that is, but. Did you wanna elaborate or I can keep kind good, I guess at it,

Dr. Nicole: I guess. Yeah. Maybe it's like the shared history of it, of like, this is someone who has gone, but you're right. Like, yeah. The question of if it's, um, more valuable or something right, is complicated. But like someone who, who has known your story for so many years and has seen you through so many different aspects of your life and your journey, there is such a depth to that, right?

And [00:10:00] that's like the beauty of long-term. Absolutely. All types of relationships, right? Yeah. Like these people that go through our lives and are with us and see us and grow. That being such a thing that I feel like I sometimes have a lack of language to describe, oh, I have this new relationship again, romantic, sexual, platonic, any kind, right?

Mm-hmm. Where I'm like, Ooh, this is, this is like, um, you know, maybe like a budding sapling compared to like a tree with roots. You know? Like how do we kind of describe Yeah, absolutely. That reality of our relational world. Well, let me sort of flip it to you if Sure.

Sally: Because a lot of times we have partners, um, for many, many years, and we have children with them.

And those children when they come are brand new. They have not seen us through our, through anything in our lives. Right. Right. They have not seen us at our worst. And actually, like most of the time, you're trying to, uh, almost insulate them from the, from your worst, from the power imbalance there, because they're just kids.

They're just babies. And they need so much from us that does that, that is a different relationship, but it doesn't, I don't think, negate the value of the importance [00:11:00] or the attentiveness that we have for our children just because that they're new. And I think that that's the case with other adults as well, you know, whether we like it or not.

And I, I do think it's something to, like, we are part of an infinite ecosystem. Mm-hmm. Everyone on this planet contributes to your life, to the way that, you know, I live in a house. I didn't build on land that was stolen from people on, on mm-hmm. Clothing that I had zero hand in growing, producing, putting together.

None of it. None of it. So to me. Of course there's the something special about having these relationships with people who have been there, who have seen these things, who you have developed a shared language with, you've developed shared experiences with and, and an almost psychic connection over time where it's just a look from across the room and you're like, I know what's in your head.

Right, right, right. And then you meet someone new and they're exciting, but they're not that. Right. But they're still a whole person. So I think Oh, totally. You know, to have these conversations about the ways that our lives are different and the ways that, and I hate the language of like, I'm gonna help you meet your needs and you're gonna help me meet my needs.

[00:12:00] Yeah. But the, to a way to sort of acknowledge the, the mutual capacity of human connection and, and the theory that I'm kind of drawing on right now is, is C kin, um, mutual aid as a factor of evolution, not just, so it's not charity. These are, you know, adjacent concepts. But I feel like I've rambled it. Have I, I don't know if I've gotten the essence of what I'm trying to say across, I mean,

Dr. Nicole: I, I'm hearing you, my brains go in place is this is how we co-collaborate.

Right. We're just what's coming up for you thinking? Yeah. I mean. Yeah, I was thinking about the ways when like, yeah, couples privilege, people depending on their dynamics will just look at new people as like objects to play with and not even consider the full depth of like that's a human you were connecting with in that respect.

Right. And so I'm hearing that my brain was also thinking about, you know, when we get lost in NRE of platonic sexual or romantic connections because the novelty of a new person, right. Even it's so exciting children. Right? Like dynamics. Absolutely. Where like you get ex children, people fawn over their children.[00:13:00] 

Of course. Of course. They their whole lives now. Totally. Right. And so like what does it mean? Like in the ways that like Yeah, yeah. Often some people can like, yeah. Completely negate that they've built so much of that history with someone for the new thing. Right. All of that too. So I don't have any definitive answers.

I guess just still feeling the lack of ways that we just don't have language to describe these things sometimes I like to think about it, um, my relational world as orbits, that helps me feel better. Sure. Where I'm like, okay, like there's not a hierarchy here, but I, I have maybe this person who I am contact with my orbits daily on this, this orbits every other day.

This orbit's monthly. Right. And then we have the comment, you know, and on all of that. And that kind of helps me feel some sort of language.

Sally: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's making me think of a passage. I think it's pedagogy of the oppressed. And I might not be, I don't wanna, I'm bad at sourcing in, in real time.

You're good. It's hard. But yeah, the concept that like each individual person is a planet, [00:14:00] like a whole planet is, is your life. No matter how close you come to someone, they will never live on your planet. They have their own planet. But you can kind of see it as a Venn diagram where like that overlap that you get to build together where your planets change based on like the resources and ideas and experiences that are shared.

But that's, that's what the orbit thing kind of made me think of. 'cause I think you're thinking of it as like the amount of time that you're around someone. Yeah. But also like the depth of connection. 'cause sometimes you'll meet someone once and they change your life. Right? Absolutely. And sometimes you don't know someone at all.

They change your life through, uh, through art or through media or through listening to a podcast and you just never, ever get to find out about it. Mm-hmm. It's just, there's just such a variety of experience for sure.

Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah. And it's exciting to think about the ways that we're all connected in that I think that stepping into relationship anarchy has given me.

So many things, but one of my, mm-hmm. Favorite aspects of it is the fullness to which I see all of my relationships, my relationship garden. It's, you know, growing up for me, I was very [00:15:00] like Christian. Mm-hmm. Purity culture. Mm-hmm. Listened to Taylor Swift, the notebook. Right. So it's like Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Before I figured out I was queer, you know, like the man that I'm going to marry and is going to be the center of my universe. Right, right, right. Having this much more expansive like Yeah. Garden or orbiting system of, wow, these are all meaningful relationships and for me, the, the amount of love and presence and fullness of my life that, that has brought, that paradigm shift has been huge.

Sally: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. And you're speaking as well to, to a sort of shared history that a lot of us have of, of mm I dunno if I wanna say this word. You might have to edit this out off the, but like Christo fascism, like the Sure. The fact is that we live in a. Anyone who lives in the Imperial Corps, so like North America, Australia, uh, Europe, it's not a coincidence that that's the, the religion that we were, you know, surrounded by growing up, that that was a, a consequence of genocide.

Mm-hmm. So it's, um, [00:16:00] it's interesting to me to consider, you know, all of the ways that what you're speaking to, uh, growing up in this particularly patriarchal way, the way that that's sort of almost inherently ingrained into the concept of monogamy and, and, um, and amort as a whole and the way that we. Are isolated, these, these little nuclear family units where like, these are the, these are our people, this is my kin, and if anyone else comes, they're not right.

You know, maybe we can trade or something like that. But I'm not invested in their lives and what happens after this interaction? Um, yeah,

Dr. Nicole: yeah, yeah.

Sally: Queerness has a great way of messing with that. And non monogamy and all of these different,

Dr. Nicole: yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Growing up, super Christian, I, I'm gonna use this word, I was not allowed to hang out with someone that is a different gender than me.

Right. That was not allowed. Mm-hmm. That's too dangerous. Right. And then once I figured out I was queer, it's like, well, what. Oh no. Like what do I do? I have no friends now. Like where do I, where do I go? Exactly. Oh, like that concept.

Sally: It's so isolating. Yeah, totally. To be different from [00:17:00] the mold that that has been created for you in a sense.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Or like the concepts of emotional infidelity. I was like, what does, did she like? Like I don't, as a queer person, I like everybody. Like what? Who can I connect with without then like cheating, you know? Like, so that really rocked my world when I started thinking about that. And then I was like, whoa, you know?

And everything started to slowly unpack and it's still quite the unpacking for me. I still feel like Lifelong process. Yeah, exactly.

Sally: That's what I said.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Is I'll get to be 90 still being, if I'm lucky, right. Still being like, what is impacting me still? And it's deep. It's deep. Yeah.

Sally: Yeah. Yeah. And I wonder, I've wondered sometimes, you know, I don't know if I've ever, if I'll ever have children, but if I get to see this old age and I've spent all my life working on this, am I going to.

Find a way to impart this onto the younger, younger generations without falling into the same trap of like, here are the rules of, of interacting with other human beings. Sure. It's a very difficult thing to, I [00:18:00] don't know, to, to sit with for me, but, and your content though isn't right. Right, right. But my content is, is voluntary.

Anyone can kind of click off whenever they don't want to. But if I were to have children or if there were young people in my life, um, that like a, a requisite for being in their, in their life Sure. Is that they have to listen to me talk a lot. Sure.

Dr. Nicole: At least for 18 years if they're wait to do that.

Sally: Right, right, right.

And still give them the depth of, of, uh, the human experience to be able to bring around ideas that I don't like. Maybe they come by and they're like, I wanna be monogamous and I get to go. Okay.

Dr. Nicole: Sure.

Sally: Totally. Right? Or is it a conversation where we collaborate on it? I don't, I don't know. Those are, um, it's so many steps ahead that I can't, I can't picture the details, you know?

Dr. Nicole: For sure. And a lot of people in my community are exploring the kids' question, right? Mm-hmm. And it's so like, just, we were even talking about the rates of postpartum depression afterwards. Mm-hmm. And I was just like. Yeah. Like we, no matter what you're doing, we are not meant to raise kids in a two person dyad [00:19:00] in a house.

Exactly. That would make anybody depressed. Yeah. Yeah. You're having to wake up throughout the night for that newborn all night, and you have no community to help share that. Of course, you're depressed. You have three months of maternity leave if you're lucky. In America, of course, you're dep like, what?

Sally: Oh no.

Right. And then people go out into public and they see children who are dysregulated or quote unquote like misbehaving, and they're like, oh, this is a bad child, or These are bad parents, and no one's like the whole society is broken. Nothing is right here.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And that's not even a question of monogamy or non-monogamy.

It's a question of community, and I think that's where relationship anarchy comes in. It's like no community, friends, community, like we need to be in connection in networks, our ecology, to really rethink this in the ways that our systems have been so hyper individualistic.

Sally: Sure. Yeah. And so I guess that's where my beef with some hierarchy is.

Okay. Kind of is rooted in, is that like the moment you start [00:20:00] prioritizing certain relationships or certain dynamics, you affect the entire ecosystem, whether you're aware of it or not. Yeah. So you might as well have like a more open dialogue with all the people that you're, you're touching and affecting and who adds something to your.

Or you go the other route, which is to isolate yourself into a little nuclear bubble and hope for the get like best. And maybe you'll, you know, maybe a handful of people will survive the apocalypse, but I, uh, right. I doubt it. Yeah. To be honest,

Dr. Nicole: I've heard other language of like, prioritizing because Yeah.

In a world where, again, all of the relationships that you're in, time and energy is limited. Love. Abundant. Mm-hmm. Time and energy are limited. So what does it mean to be conscious of how you're spending, Ugh. The language of money. Right. Be conscious of how you're using that energy. Uh, and in that way then I've heard things like, prioritize, like, I'm prioritizing this rather than hierarchy.

But again, it's still, it's still complicated, but you know, like. Uh, it is something I do have to think about of like, of having enough energy for these relationships in the limited time. It, you know, [00:21:00] I think about these relationships again as a garden. Like, I don't know about you, but I've definitely been a plant mom where I've gotten too many plants and then go like, oh no, I can't water all of these, and I actually have to be really like, conscious of which ones need more.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And like tending to and the realities of that.

Sally: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I, I relate because I'm someone who definitionally just, I, I need so much alone time. I need so much alone time. Yeah, totally. People come near me and I get overwhelmed. It's just, it's, it's a lot, you know? And yeah, the question of how to manage time and energy when love is abundant, and I do kind of, I don't know, I, I wonder about that because I don't think that time and energy are any less infinite than love, and I don't think that they're any less finite in a sense.

You know what I mean?

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Sally: The people that we find these relationships with or have affection towards or are attracted towards, like there are reasons that that's, that's the case, right? Is there, you know. I don't, I, I don't quite know how to answer it, uh, in a simple way.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I appreciate the friendship model.

That has helped a lot with me. I [00:22:00] think that often when I get this is now kind of going into a world of non-monogamy concepts and partnerships mm-hmm. And all of that, like for me, I find so much grounding in looking to a friendship world of like, okay, how do I do this with my platonic relationships?

Mm-hmm. And trying to create that level of energy over here in the romantic and sexual, wherever we draw those lines. Right. But like that, that friendship model has given me so much grounding.

Sally: Mm. Yeah. And I, I agree with you and, and I've experienced that as, I think I can say with honesty, like the most care I've ever experienced has been in my, in my friendships more so than Yeah.

In my romantic or sexual relationships because there is that sort of, that. Desire to, like first we're choosing each other and then we're going to choose to be in each other's lives and care about each other's lives. And when our circumstances changed, you know, I have friends that I haven't talked to in a couple of years and I know that when I pick up the phone, they're gonna be right there for me.

You know, it's, it's, but I do think it could be more of like an open dialogue where, 'cause I kind [00:23:00] of make decisions about how much alone time I get for myself.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Sally: Um, and I would love for that to not be as much the case. I would love to sort of divest some of that power. Um, but then we have to talk about disability and we have to talk about racialization.

We have to talk about money and we have to talk about, and it's, it's all of these conversations that in and of themselves take up all of this time and energy. So it's, it's almost, I don't know, like kind of how do you put the cart before the horse, before the cart, before the horse sort of a mm-hmm. And I guess that's the, that's the anarchistic process, isn't it?

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. You have to dream of the world of possibilities and to like see that new future and continue to take steps while in the system and the complexities, messiness of it. And also try to take one step forward into that, that liberatory space.

Sally: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Nicole: And. For me, it's been really interesting.

Like I, yeah, I would not identify as poly. I don't think that that's, that doesn't feel accurate to me. I definitely, in the political game of it all will say like, oh, I'm non-monogamous. Particularly because, I mean, depending on who [00:24:00] I'm talking to, I think that that signals a certain level of world building that, um, is important to say.

Um, but yeah, I wouldn't consider myself poly particularly because of the ways in which even that paradigm creates it, like multiple partners where it's like, where do you draw?

Sally: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Nicole: It's this line, like I actually have multiple relationships that are important. That's why I'm a relationship anarchist.

Sally: Yeah. I love the way you phrased it as like world building, like you're trying to signal to the people who can hear you or who are already familiar enough, and anyone who can't hear you. I can't hear you anyways. Right? Yeah. It's one of those things almost

Dr. Nicole: Totally. Which happens a lot. I don't know about you.

Yeah. But there's Oh yeah, totally. I mean, I have a community that I feel pretty good with now, but in the expansiveness of relationship anarchy, I connect with a lot of different people in my community that aren't all doing the same thing. And so sometimes I'll like throw out what I'm doing and they're just so confused.

Or I'll be talking about my worlds and you know, [00:25:00] you got that immediate, I could never do that. Right? Right. I could not just blank stare like, right. Right. Which I think is a testament to how much of, like when we're moving through the world and like we all do this, we hear content, we process for ourselves.

Mm-hmm. What would this be like if I was doing this and move from that world and then respond back? Oh, I could never, it's like, dude, we didn't ask you, we didn't, we didn't ask you for,

Sally: you're occupying a completely different point in time. Like you'd have to have so much more of a shared experience for that to make.

But, you know, I feel like it, it's, the only thing about it that bothers me is the immediacy of it. Like the, IM closing off of it. Yeah. Or like the explanation for why they wanna be monogamous because it's, I wanna be true to the, um, understanding that like, I haven't lived anyone else's life and I wanna have room for them to tell me about their experiences also.

But there are power dynamics involved. Everyone understands how monogamy works. Everyone understands the justifications for monogamy and is, it's kind of definitionally you have to, in order to choose to become non-monogamous. Like that's, that's kind of a [00:26:00] requisite. So people are starting at like, not even one-on-one, they're starting like kindergarten.

Like, let me tell you about True Love and I'm just sat here. Like, I, I don't, I don't know how to be open and engaged in this conversation 'cause I don't wanna be here. Um, sure,

Dr. Nicole: sure.

Sally: But that's just, that's a per like, I can recognize that as being, you know, simultaneously a personal problem and an an indication of how much time and energy I have based on.

The way that the power dynamics are flowing today.

Dr. Nicole: For sure, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I try to hold it as like a, another culture, which is where I, I was at with it. There was definitely the, the first time that someone mentioned non-monogamy and that they did non-monogamy. I looked him in the eye and I said, if you loved me, you would only love me.

Mm mm I would never do this. And I walked away. Isn't it funny how I also used to condemn homosexuals when I was Christian? It was bad. Right, right, right. Um, and then you find out you're one later, and then you say you'd never do poly, and then you're like, oh, shit. You know? So I'm always like biting my words over here.

Like, what am I saying? [00:27:00] I'll never do, right. That I'm gonna come out like, yeah. You know? Yeah.

Sally: One day I might, but also, you know, it's one of those things where like. In your case, and I think in a lot of people's case, people's first introduction is being in a monogamous relationship and then having everything kind of fall apart at once instead of, 'cause you, again, you've spent your whole life being told what a relationship is supposed to look like and your love.

Right. And you have to, you know, and sacrifice and all of these things. And the first time you hear of it is your partner telling you that they don't love you enough. Right. Or like, that's the, the immediate like, like message that's being received, I think. Um Right. Not great. Not an ideal. We should teach it in schools.

I think, I think we should teach relating in schools. I agree. More so than, than ownership, but here we are.

Dr. Nicole: I agree. Yeah. 'Cause i, because how I look at it is like, it's a cultural practice, right? If someone wants to have sex with one person, beautiful. Choose that path, right? I think I look at it politically in the same way of having kids or not.

Where it's like currently we have done, I mean, it's not done, let's be very, very clear, but there has been a lot of work. Where having, choosing [00:28:00] to not have kids is an okay thing to do and have a meaningful life choice that you can do. I, I won't say that's fully done to be anywhere. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But we've a lot of work as a society to be like, sure.

Don't have kids and have a meaningful life. Right. And I feel like I, I would just want the same sort of space for monogamy and non-monogamy where it's like, choose to have sex with one person for your whole life. Beautiful. That's meaning making. As long as it's not the possessive controlling, but the choice of actually, like, I want to only explore this with one person for the sacredness of that beautiful.

As long as we have the equal freedom of the opposite side and it doesn't produce what I reacted with, which means you don't love me, that I'm not enough. All of that is the same sort of world of when you say, oh, I'm not gonna have kids. Well, what is your life gonna have Any meaning? It's like, we need to get into this space where it's truly like an option of either or both are beautiful.

Choose your own adventure, my friend. And it's not about jealousy. It's not about not loving the person enough. It's really about [00:29:00] like, how do you wanna spend your time and energy? Do you wanna have sex with a lot of people? Do you wanna go through one person? And each path is complicated, lemme tell you, you know, both they are,

Sally: there's no, there's no easy path.

There's no such thing as an easy relationship. Um, although, you know, some easier than others. Sure. Um, but yeah, no, I think, you know, I agree with you and I, I, I feel like the only way to, to accomplish that dream of like, you can choose whatever you like, you can stay or you can go is to, is to again acknowledge the coercion.

Sure. Inherent to it, right? Yes. A lot of times, I think when it comes to, and this happens in anarchist theory with anarchists and inner theories and stupid books and, you know, whatever. Sure. You come up with any, any, um, concept like freedom of association and there are ways to exploit that. There are ways for people who are on the top of a, a hierarchy to not necessarily be aware of their partners inability to leave or their dependence or why, or make any steps to sort of make it easier for them.

So it's just like, here are your two options. One of them is terrible, the other one is also terrible, but you'll, you'll live better. So like, pick between the, [00:30:00] and I don't like that, you know?

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I see this unfolding in many generations. I think that future generations are gonna have such an easier time with it, because I'm existing right now.

Okay. And I am existing in the world of Jessica Fern of all these different books that have existed. Mm-hmm. And give me the possibility where I, I'm not getting married to one person. With a promise of sexual fidelity. Sure. Right. Maybe I would engage in a legal process and the benefits even a, a religious ceremony of it all.

But there's no way that sexual fidelity is a part of that vow, let me tell you. Okay? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so when I look at the younger generations who are gonna come up into the world of us having these conversations freely, they're gonna be in much more of that space of looking at it and being like, what do I want?

Mm-hmm. Were the generations before who got so into one way of being, oh my God. Do you know how hard, like, I, as a [00:31:00] therapist, like I watch clients who open up their relationships way later in life, and it is. Fucking hard. Brutal. Yeah. 'cause you have established years of patterns of how you relate. Yes. Yeah.

So whereas if you start with it at the beginning where you're like, oh, you already have two partners, I've got three, let, or whatever number, you know, like, cool, like let's run in this Right. Like it is. Right. So I, I do hold the weight of what it means to change and then see that I think future generations are gonna feel more of this liberation of this space because they're gonna start in a different path than having gone some of the traditional route of where people are coming to non monogamy of like, wow, we haven't had sex for years.

There's someone else that I'm interested in. Oh, I'm queer and I haven't explored this. I mean, like, eating so much harder down the line than starting.

Sally: That's that's absolutely true. Although I do wonder about whether it's going to be quite that linear. I think we're gonna have, you know, people of all sorts throughout, sort of going through Sure.

Um, choosing different lives and being examples and, and messing up in different ways. [00:32:00] And then we learn, I don't know, it's, um, it's complicated for sure, but, uh. But you're right. Abs like the As, as neuroplastic as we may be, it's very difficult sometimes to, to. Choose to rewire your brain and then it happens.

That's not, that's not quite, you know, we have to prefigure it, right. Building the new, within the shell of the old and all of this.

Dr. Nicole: For sure. I mean, we're, yeah, we like consistency. We like patterns. I mean, this is why. Mm-hmm. Even just like any sort of therapeutic dynamic between two people when you're trying to work with them, there's years of patterning that has built there and, and like even thinking about our own relationships, right?

Like, if I think about my dynamic with my mom, right? Like the ways that that has been built over the years to try and change that, these are hard things versus starting from the beginning. But Yeah, in a, I hope there's a world of, of people choosing a smattering of different relationships. But like you said, like part of that I think is, is naming the ways in which we don't, I don't wanna say we don't have free will, but like, oof.

Oh, we could [00:33:00] get into that one if you wanna. I'm like, Fuko has a lot to say about that one. Yeah. You have thoughts? Yeah.

Sally: Oh, I don't know if I, I have opinions. I don't. I I'm not, I'm not, God, I don't, I can't tell you how or not you have free. You will, but I mean, I don't believe that individual humans do to, for, for whatever it's worth.

Yeah. I'm a pretty ardent deter determinist, but I do think that we, like, as a collective, like, as like humanity as a whole has a chance to direct our future in a way that like no other being in the material realm has. You know what I mean? Like, it's, and you, you might know that you, you, you have experience with a therapist.

I don't, I've never done that. Mm-hmm. Um, I've been in therapy. I have a therapist Sure. But the, you know, people's childhood and the way that people's brains are developed in the young age and we can, you know, look into neurobiology and we can look into circumstances and, and, and, and, and it's hard for me to, to see that and to have done as much work as I've done to sort of mind my own thought processes and still believe that people have.

Free will. Sure. Like it's really only what you've, [00:34:00] I'm only an anarchist because there have been anarchists and because I could already access their theory and because I was already, you know, marginalized enough to be interested in alternative, uh, options and to do, and the privilege of being able to, you know, spend all the time reading and researching and talking to people, you know, it, all of these factors combined to create my ideological position.

Right. Um, so people aren't going to, you know, wake up one day and have that telepathically transmuted to them unless we do the work.

Dr. Nicole: For sure. For sure.

Sally: Of doing the art and doing the relationships and being, and, and working out those issues with the capacities that we have.

Dr. Nicole: Mm, sure. Yeah. I'm thinking about the ways that.

The feminist psychology movement came in and really tried to get us to re-understanding ourself in relationship, right? Like, yeah, yeah. When we study, you know, the particles and the atoms, you know, quantum mechanics has taught us that it's about the, you know, situation. What's around you? Right. What's going on?

And so thinking about ourselves in the same way of the individual is always shaped by the relationships to society, [00:35:00] to our experiences. And my existential professor would always be like, introducing these ideas to me. And I like argued with him for the last two years, you know, and he'd be like, Nicole, we have free will within what's, we have free will with what's within our existential awareness.

Right. And I say, cool, Dr. De boast. But your existential awareness is shaped by your culture. Right? Exactly. Correct. So like, go back to that one. I'm like, I don't know about, it's like free will. Yes and no. You know, like,

Sally: yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'm with you. I, uh, I dated an existentialist one and then I can, I couldn't attest that you're doing the Lord's work, man.

Dr. Nicole: I would say that if I had to describe how I work as a therapist, it'd be like feminist, existential, somatic. So like, often I feel like I'm like hitting the existential pieces and maybe you get it 'cause you dated one where like, I, I like say the stuff and people don't dunno what I'm talking about. I'm like, damnit damnit.

But yeah, it's, it's the struggles,

Sally: the meaning making. It's the world, [00:36:00] you know, when you really think about it. Yeah. I mean, for the record, I don't think that the existentialists are wrong necessarily. I do believe that life, that the meaning of life is to give life meaning in the, you know, in the shortest possible way.

But it's, uh, I dunno, I think that the, the way that that idea has been proliferated and, and discussed has been. I don't wanna say it's done more harm than good, but it's done quite a lot of harm and I think it's worth looking into that and to fold that into our ideologies.

Dr. Nicole: Sure.

Sally: Um, if possible. Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: Which I don't know too much about, like personally, I don't know much about like, the history of existential theory as much as it's like practical points and therapy, but half of what I, I always commented back from him was like, damn, like where's the social critique?

Which I guess comes in like more like narrative therapy. Yeah. If you've heard of that, of like, um, the ways that we have to examine the systems and the cultures that we're in and how that shapes, um, the realities of our world. Mm-hmm.

Sally: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, that's, um, well I guess I don't, I don't wanna speak too much on it 'cause I'm not an expert, but I think that's one of the big holes in, in the, in the, in, in that theory.

Dr. Nicole: Sure.

Sally: [00:37:00] Um, but yeah, there's so many modalities out there for, especially for therapy. You know, my therapist and I have gone through a bunch of different ones trying different things, trying to figure out what works. And it's good that there's variety, but it's also, um. It also, you know, it took me quite a lot of work to understand that there were options other than CBT.

So it's, yeah, it's again, one of those things where like there is one set path and then if it fails for you, then you get to explore other, other, um, excuse me, modalities and uh mm-hmm. And so much of those other modalities are, are taken from different cultures and different experiences and it's just, there's so much into it.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's just hard, you know, you zoom in and out and it's just fractals in every direction. What do you do with it? Sure.

Dr. Nicole: Totally. Totally. Yeah. Which for me, when I think about like relationship anarchy, I think about needing more narratives of meaning making, right? Like the first, I mean, again, like, I guess this is, I don't wanna always talk about non-monogamy in my relationship anarchy, but it does feel so central for me, especially because I'm.[00:38:00] 

I've learned to be able to explore sex with a lot of my different connections, and that being actually such a key part, I would say of my closest orbit people is that sexual and free love, but to actually have narratives where I have multiple of those going. Where the fuck is my movie on that? Where's my book on that?

Like, I am just Right, right. Scratching to find a meaning, making narrative to feel okay with what I'm doing. Like,

Sally: yeah. Yeah. And it's tough because there's not a lot of, I, I think I know of a couple people who are working on it, who are writing books. You might Right. Also be you, I don't know if you're doing research on it, but people are working on it and people have been working on it.

And um, and one of the most exciting things for me about, about doing this and about these changes of my life is, is the more I dig, the more I find Mm. The more I realize that people have actually been doing that for hundreds and hundreds of years, if not thousands. Right? Yes. And we've just erased it. Yes, yes.

Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of the research I've been doing recently has been sort of, um, centered on that archival violence and of, of, you know, the narratives that [00:39:00] have been allowed to be carried forward and for what reason and what function they serve in today's society. But yeah, I think it makes perfect sense that you would be, uh, mostly centered around non-monogamy or, or, you know, these romantic sexual relationships because again, aort is so.

Deeply intertwined with the way that the patriarchy works, with the way that, uh, all of the other systems work and the way that our world works today. Um, yeah. I don't wanna every time, like all of the systems, you know, it's, it's totally,

Dr. Nicole: totally,

Sally: yeah.

Dr. Nicole: And it's enjoyable, I guess, for me to be able to explore like ecstasy with multiple people, right?

Like Sure. I, I love that space of being able to have my, like network, my closest network of people that I have emotional support with and connection and give to, and also the freedom to have like lots of ECS static pleasure together. Like it feels so good and expansive. Pleasurable. Yeah.

Sally: Yeah. Yeah. It's a great time.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Sally: And yeah, it's worth doing, I think, [00:40:00] but not, not necessarily for everyone. Totally. Which is, which is what it comes down to, I guess. Right. But like I love that. I love that for you. I love that you have like, you know, they say it takes a, a, a village to raise a child and I don't think that that changes as we get older.

I think that we just kind of self-impose, um, independence in a sense that isn't real. Just block out all the, the other forces. So I love that you have a village, basically.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And learning to like play in that village. 'cause Yeah, you're right. Everyone. Everyone's gonna choose different paths, right?

Monogamy, not having sex like these are, these are all great paths for me. I'm like playing in all these different dynamics. Yeah, yeah. And still feeling like I just don't, I want the like sex anarchy manifesto. Like where is that for me? Like, because I'm just realizing for me, like I've always had sexual connections in what?

Well, first monogamous world. Mm-hmm. Where it's like one person, whole storyline. And then some sort of non-monogamy world where it's multiple deep. And then to have this world where it's like multiple [00:41:00] people of various different degrees and to learn the ways in which I want to connect and play with people and how that differs.

Like some people I like don't, I don't wanna make out with them. I do not want your tongue down my throat, but I would be happy to use a dildo and a flogger on you. Right. And that sort of understanding of my psyche is Yeah. Radical to step into. I like,

Sally: it is radical. It is radical. It's, um, I'm reminded of like difference, repetition, you know?

It's, it's, everything is so individual. The only once, only once. And at the same time, there are patterns and you can't really pick apart. We really want to, like a society, we wanna have binaries, this or this, this and this. But these two things don't go together. And these do things never happen together.

And, you know, but, but it's not, that's not. We just, we self imposed those rules. Humans decided that that would be the way it was, and then we lived like that. Yeah, totally. And we could choose something else. 'cause like humans, I think collectively have the, the power to change the world over and over and over again if [00:42:00] we don't eat each other alive or, you know, eat ourselves alive first or end up

Dr. Nicole: climate change.

Sally: Yeah, exactly. That's what I mean, right? Yeah, yeah. Cannibalize the earth we live on then, then that won't get to happen so much.

Dr. Nicole: Right? Absolutely. Yeah. And so it's been such like, um. It's been such a stretch though. Like I often feel like I'm just like in the same ways where I'm scratching for language of like, what, what, what is this where I'm trying to like also do the same thing with my sexuality, where it's like very confusing because the types of play play.

Sally: Do you wanna talk about that more? Like, I'm not sure I'm understand, but I also, this is your podcast though. If you don't wanna talk about it,

Dr. Nicole: I do wanna talk about it. This is what I do. Yeah, totally. Yeah, totally. Totally. Like kind of like what I was saying about like, okay, this is maybe someone that I, in my community, someone I love.

Mm-hmm. Beautiful relationship. Mm-hmm. But I only wanna play sexually when we're in a group dynamic, like the one-on-one. You know, like we talk about group psychology and how that creates different experiences. Sure, yeah, absolutely. Maybe the one-on-one chemistry isn't there, but God, when we're together with three, that's So, [00:43:00] how the fuck do I have that conversation?

I'm like literally spinning over here in my head of like, what is, like, I don't wanna not have sex with this person, but I do. But like where and when? And like, I've just never gone through the process of having different sexual connections to different varying degrees. And then had to find language for like these interesting feelings I'm feeling about that.

And how like, yeah.

Sally: Yeah. And it's almost like you have like a, it's like then there's negative space and you're trying to find all the little corners that make up the shape that you can't, there's no word for it yet. I don't know how to talk about it yet, but I can tell you everything around. It's just such a, it's messy.

Dr. Nicole: Totally. Totally. Yeah. It, it reminds me of like the, uh, like the therapy wheel when they have that like emotion wheel that you're like, maybe we start with these core and we go out where like, maybe my sex wheel is like, yes, I want to have sex with this person, but like, what does that mean? Or like, maybe even a better word, like, I want to explore a eroticism in play.

That I think. Sure. I like those words better. Mm-hmm. Um, what does that mean? Is that like topping and kink? Is this [00:44:00] making out, is this having, you know, a role play? I mean, like, it's just so much further than my brain is still even comprehending what is possible. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I just, I as like someone who's particularly focused on sex and relationships, I really do think about the ways in which.

So many of us don't even have language like go like way, way, way, way far back to be like, this is how I want to be touched. Yeah. Let alone to like multiple relationships and figuring out with each one how it's different because Right.

Sally: Folks, it all with consent dynamics as well of like totally trying to make sure everyone's emotionally well and physically well and, and totally.

The power dynamics aren't weird and, yeah. I'm curious, like, do you find that that's easier for you having a, a collection of people like a village who have, I don't dunno if you have shared language or if you're developing that together, but do you find that it's easier to, to be in a group like this?

Dr. Nicole: I think this is where I go back to what I said earlier about processing mm-hmm.

With people. Mm-hmm. Because if I go to someone who's not a part of this, I could say, oh, I'm feeling this where I'm like unsure of how to connect with this person or what to do. And they'd be like, Hmm, sounds like you don't wanna have sex with them. Mm. Or [00:45:00] I process it with someone in my group who's like, where we're at and they're like, oh, well have you tried maybe bottoming or have you tried maybe topping where you do this, this, but not that.

Like that sounds like what you're actually getting at, where like it's like if you're not from this world of expansive possibility and play, it almost goes into this binary of like, oh, well then you don't wanna have sex with them. Versus like, oh, have you actually thought about this or that, or this or that.

And so absolutely processing this with people on similar stain like pages is a absolutely how I'm surviving in this.

Sally: Right, right. That would make sense. And I guess, so I guess I'm guessing what this person that you're talking about isn't part of the circle, so it's not as easy as being like, here it is.

It's someone on the outside that you don't have like a connection to. To be like my, I was talking to my friend the other day about what I feel for you, and maybe you can go talk to, you know, it's. I don't know. I guess it's, it's difficult to introduce the concept, to be the, to be someone's first in a sense when it's something that they're not used to.

Sure. Totally. It's emotional work and a lot to do there. Right. It's a lot of, yeah. Yeah, yeah. For sure. And then, how [00:46:00] much work work do you wanna put in for, you know, potentially topping ones or, you know, whatever, whatever dynamic that may or may not be worth it? The mental and emotional load of it.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Yeah. But I feel like I'm getting more and more language to it and better. I guess that's just like as of current. Mm-hmm. Now here, this is like my biggest question, struggle, mark of like, question struggle mark. Interesting. Sure, sure. Um, just of like, yeah, figuring out more language to all of this and how to do it in a way.

Um, 'cause it's, it feels good. And then like the, the stretching out of that is an interesting living into for sure.

Sally: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 'cause it's new and so you're gonna, right, it's gonna be, there's gonna be obstacles, there's not gonna be a beaten path and a, a beaten set of rules that you can just kind of borrow.

You gotta make it up right as you go along. I'm curious to find out, you know, what, by the time this podcast is released, whether it's because it's, it's one of those things where like every time I look back on myself two years ago, five years ago, 10 years ago, totally different human being completely different.

So like, what am I gonna have access to in a few years, you know? Totally. What a fun process. Totally. And not always fun. I don't wanna, I don't wanna [00:47:00] say it's always a good time. There are difficulties. We cry a lot.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. So much for sure. Absolutely. Yeah. I, if I could imagine out, which I'll probably maybe do for the intro when I come back to, to you, you know, but like, if I can imagine out it's, I'm probably gonna have way more language than I am currently struggling with you right now.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because when I look back on my pleasure journey, I couldn't, I, gosh, oh my gosh. I remember connecting with this kinky, lovely individual many years ago. Mm-hmm. And we were laying in bed and they were like, how do you like to be touched? And I froze and I had no language for that. And yeah. So if someone asked me that right now, I'd be like, well, let me tell you.

You know, like, got my binder ready to go. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So like, I can only imagine like in years forward, I'll be like, well, Sally, this is actually what I do now, and I say this and that, but like for now I'm in my current consciousness. I'm still like, whoa. [00:48:00] So I have so much I, God, I love my life. I love what I do with my clients.

Mm-hmm. I love helping people from all different, like spectrums of this, of like where they're at, of being able to name that. Oh, it's such like, I, I'm so passionate about ending rape culture through the liberation of our pleasure.

Sally: Yes, yes. Right? Yes, absolutely. Yeah, that's a, that's a whole, that's a whole thing.

But r and as a, and as a therapist too, I imagine you get to do something that very few people do, which is to be, um, sort of a visitor on a lot of people's planets, is the best way I can put it. And to really get to know their lives and their emotions that people don't get to see from like a, especially from like a, you know, your relationship with a therapist is different from a friendship is different from a Right.

A relationship that's sexual and so on and so forth. It's you, you know, I imagine that you're just like a hoard of knowledge, like you're just a little dragon with like a, a hoard of knowledge of like, yeah, how do I put these pieces together in a way that. That works.

Dr. Nicole: But Sally, I do not know how to do small talk.

Like [00:49:00] I

good. I'm like, I'm like so used to going so deep that I'm at a party. Mm-hmm. And we're like talking about stuff. I'm like, when are we gonna hit the, when are we gonna go the, and then like, we just don't, that's like, don't party. Like, you know, like, yeah. Keep it off light a little bit. You know, like, that's such a stretch for me.

Sally: I think small talk is a lost skill. Like Yeah. But it helped me personally to learn that, like, people do that as a way to kind of vet you ahead of, to kind of just put out vibes and see if, if you're picking up anything that they're saying. And then maybe you go a little bit deeper, maybe you go a little deeper.

Yeah. Because I've had to learn in my life that going deep right away can be, can be very risky sometimes. Sure, sure. Especially, you know, when there's power that hasn't been, uh, acknowledged or, or mitigated any way. Yeah. Um, but I hear you. Small talk. Not that much fun. No. To be honest, it's not.

Dr. Nicole: No, I agree. I agree.

I'm curious, if you look back on your anarchy journey, you know, is there anything that you'd wanna say to yourself with your current level of consci consciousness? I wish I could say everything.

Sally: Would you say, you know, I wish I'd known [00:50:00] then what I know now.

Dr. Nicole: Of course.

Sally: Oh man. I know. I don't know. I tell 'em to watch my YouTube channel, I guess.

Do you think? I guess. Okay. No, that's not fair. Okay. If I went back to younger me, I, I would, I would tell myself to give, give them just a lot more grace. I think I had a, I was a very impatient person. I still am, to be fair. It's something I'm always gonna struggle with, but. Like, I just think about the amount, the amount of time I spent, like beating myself up for not doing it right, right away for not having the answers.

For not being able to articulate it. For not being able to do it. Right. Right. You know, in quotations. But, but yeah, it's, it has to be a, a process and, and so many of the things that I look back on and I remember feeling really like, oh, I'd failed here. Mm. And I hadn't failed at all. I hadn't failed even a little bit.

I was exactly where I needed to be based on my circumstances. Yeah. Based on what was available to me at the time. And all of those failures are what led me to here. Yeah. So are they, did I fail or did I succeed in a way that that wasn't perfect and, and. Humans, [00:51:00] right, who don't have access to all of space time are just always going to be that, that imperfect, I think.

Dr. Nicole: Right, right. Yeah. What does it mean to grow? Like what are our expectations often? Uh, perfection, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anything but perfection. Failure, you know, it's like, oh god. Right.

Sally: Do it right and do it right the first time, or else, literally, or else, you know. Yeah. So it's, it's a, it's a very real pressure, but, uh, I'm learning to be.

I'm learning to slow down a little bit. This year has been a, a one of a lot of, you know, reflection and study for me. So I, I valued that.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Good. I'm feeling that too, of like, what does it mean to slow down and not constantly be eding my reality, you know, like, right. Yeah. Whoa. You know, that, that, like the ways that we were saying, it's a never ending question of the systems and how they impact us and our access to pleasure.

I mean, I'm constantly like clawing at it and

I think it's, and it's so hard to slow down

Sally: and everything. You learn everything I learned, you know, it recontextualizes lifetimes over and over and over again. [00:52:00] Like, I look back on memories I had when I was a kid and I can see them differently now, you know, as an adult, that's what I wish I had, but there's no way for adult me to be child me at the same time.

There's no way for me to go backwards. Right. So it's, yeah. What about you? How do you, how would you respond to this question? What would you tell younger you.

Huh.

Dr. Nicole: I, so for me, I didn't know anything about anarchy at all. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Until I had read more than two. Mm-hmm. And there was a small paragraph. I know there was a small PI know, complicated, but it was, is how I got here, you know? And, uh, amen. Yeah. I mean, same. Right, same. So, yeah. Yeah. Um, there was that small paragraph on relationship anarchy, and I don't know what it was about it, but it spoke to me in my body.

And I remember going outside of my apartment and like skipping joyfully down the alley of just like, yes, yes, yes. And yeah, so I, I, I [00:53:00] don't, I like felt it right then. And I guess if I could say it right now, it would be like, keep going. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Follow that feeling like that is real. It is possible.

And something probably very similar to what you're saying of like, how can I. I'm, I'm immediately thinking about my clients right now because I have so many clients who are, oh, I want more compersion. I want more compersion, I want more Com conversion. I'm struggling. And I'm like, hold on a second. Do you p can we pause to look back on all of the growth that you've had to be where you're at right now?

Like, it is immense, my friend. So I think something similar to you of like, you're gonna go, you're gonna fall down, you're gonna constantly want to be better and that is beautiful, that you have that value system and the dream and learn that falling on your face is gonna be part of it and that you are defined.

That the fact that you get back up.

Sally: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And, and. What you're speaking to as well [00:54:00] with this. I had a sort of similar experience when I, when I first picked up, for me it was polyamory and I was like, and I went from like, okay, maybe this is something I could do to, like, this is the only way I ever wanna interact with relationship.

And then from there I went into relationship anarchy and I was like, no, no, no. Nevermind, nevermind. Totally. I only wanna do it this way. Totally. Yeah. Um, but I think that we've been sort of disconnected from our intuition in a lot of different ways. Yeah. And reconnecting with that in a spark of like, follow this there, it's strong.

And you start to see little signs all over the place that are like, this one, do this thing. Yeah. And it feels good and it's, it's, I don't know, I think you talk speaking to Compersion as well, like a lot of people really wanna be, myself included, five years ahead, 10 years ahead. But you're exactly where you are for a reason.

And I think that it's worthwhile to listen to those anxieties about what they're telling you about our present society. A lot of the time I feel like people are. Talking about, you know, you have to have stronger boundaries and you have to not worry so much about what other people think and how they're impacting you.

And I kind of feel like we need to go in the opposite of direction of like really listening to the ways that these messages are impacting you, and then doing something about that [00:55:00] as well. Yeah. Because they're gonna, like, you can, you can close that off best you can, you know, and some people have, and some people are wonderful at meditation and wonderful at all sorts of different, different practices, but the world continues to exist around you.

And I feel like for me personally, like I've always felt the most grounded when I've been able to follow my bliss in a sense, while making active changes in the world around me as well. Yeah. Um, yeah,

Dr. Nicole: yeah, absolutely.

Sally: Because that anxiety is not from nowhere. You know, you're jealous for a reason. That's, that's speaking to something right.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, I'm, I'm thinking about the ways in which it's like our life force or, um, the feminist psychology movement would talk about zest. I love that word. Like, I'm not familiar. Tell me about it. It's just, it's just a feeling of this energy for life, that excitement that you spoke to of like Sure. It's possible.

Yeah. And feeling that, and yeah, for me it's definitely been like a dance of like, what does it mean to follow that? And at the same time, with equal measure, my commitment to community, right. [00:56:00] And, and kind of keeping those together and coupled together for that like the individual pleasure and the community commitment and like, what does it mean to do that?

And, and yeah. Compersion is not gonna happen if your I, yeah. If your needs aren't being met across the board. Okay. Mm-hmm. That doesn't mean it all has to be with one person. Mm-hmm. But if you, I've, I've, you know, I've talked about this where it's like. We are social beings. We need relationships. If your one person is the only space that you are getting fulfillment for those needs from, mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. The idea of taking away your one source of water is not fucking gonna happen. Right. Are you kidding me? No. And so stepping into a world where you have multiple sources of flowing water, suddenly we don't hold onto that. So grippingly tight, and I think that's part of it too, where it's like we can do all the work, but until you're met in a wide variety of water sources, [00:57:00] don't beat yourself up. My friend that.

Sally: Right. That's just a representation of the culture that you are a part of, that you were born into without necessarily asking. Right.

Dr. Nicole: Here we are for sure. And then the gender dynamics of that, you know, and then the gender dynamics.

Sally: Yeah. And then, and you know, and, uh, some, a lot of the work I've been doing recently has been, I've been delving into, um, like abuse and domestic violence research specifically.

And that dependence on another human being makes it so, so easy for vulnerable people to get caught. And the people on the outside will look up from and say, you know, you have to leave, you have to leave this abusive partner. And it's like, what? Well, okay, are you going to then meet all of my needs? Like, what, what am I gonna do afterwards?

My whole life is dependent on, you know, all of these different factors. So it's, it's really, really difficult. And I think that. People really underestimate the power involved in these, in these dynamics. Um, yeah. For worse, I'm not gonna say for better and for words only for worse, really.

Dr. Nicole: Right? Because it is a need.

We need, right. Community, right. We need relationships. So you're right, like the, the [00:58:00] difficulty of people who are in those domestic violence situations, there are needs that are being met for connection.

Sally: Right? And maybe also financially and maybe also, you know, material in all of these different ways. Yeah.

It's, um, yeah. You can't just tell someone to leave. You're just, you know, creating the same circumstance for them. You're just, you know. I'm not gonna get into it too much here.

Dr. Nicole: Right. I know. Yeah. But in the future, perhaps one day For sure. And yeah. Good. Go down that path please. Yeah. Oh, I intend to. Yeah.

Yeah. And so like, but even when we're not in that situation, of course then like, it's like you, I don't, I guess I'll just speak for my own experience. Mm-hmm. Having multiple sources of water has radically changed my jealousy and compersion. Like, it is rad. I can't like God, like it just like a 180 almost.

Holy shit. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Because I was like, this was my one source of that. And I was like, oh my God, I have to share. Like, okay, I, I want this, but this is scary. And then to have multiple [00:59:00] and then be like, oh, like, okay, yeah. Go, go. I feel sourced. I feel good. Like what? Go like, yeah. Great. Like that, that like.

And not in a avoidant way of go. Uh, I like, I know that person's gonna stay in community with me. I know they're connected, but like, I'm just not as threatened because I'm more resource abundant. And I think that Sure. Like the gender dynamics too, of like most men, like being, like only finding emotional connection in a partner, in a heterosexual sense with women.

I mean, we are in a complicated situation and this is absolutely, absolutely why men are having the hardest time with non-monogamy and most women are leading this movement.

Sally: I think now. I think that's fair to say. Now, initially that wasn't necessarily, I think that men have been cheating other wives for much longer than we've been doing radical free liberation.

Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: Apparently the research shows that it's actually pretty similar. Once you're right. Once we got liberation from finances Yes. Apparently the research. Yes. That was a big one. That is that why not exist.

Sally: Yes. [01:00:00] We've cheated now we couldn't have bank accounts. Yeah, that's, that's cheats the whole thing.

Now we cheat at the same rates. Right, right. Which is why, which makes sense. Yeah, totally. That's the power dynamics that people don't necessarily consider a lot of the time, but that's. That's absolute. And I think that once you have that, once you have, you know, a garden or, or many, many pools of water, you realize how wonderful that is.

And you want that for the people in your life as well. You meet someone and they don't have that and you're like, how can I help? Yeah. How can we make sure what, how, how can I pull my resources to make sure that you also have more connections? Because it's also, it's also a relief. I, in my opinion, in my perspective, from my experiences, I feel much less sort of weighed down by the needs of a person when they have other people that they can go to.

Right? Yeah. It's just an all around good thing for everyone, I wanna say. But at the same time, you know, I still wanna leave room for the people that aren't quite on board yet, or, or might never be on board, that's for sure. The breadth of human experience.

Dr. Nicole: Exactly. Right. The diversity of cultures. Right. I hear you.

And, and yet I also wanna name the complexities of like. [01:01:00] Uh, ending rape culture, right? Like there. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. When we are in connection with other people, we do not have this expectation that one person is gonna meet all of our needs. We understand that each person might not fully align, and so when we are in these dynamics where we look at one other person, say, you must meet all of my sexual needs and align with me on all of my sexual stuff.

There is coercion. Yes, there is. In that dynamic, I'm sorry.

Sally: Don't be, it's just a thing that people don't wanna say out loud, but they need to say that out loud.

Dr. Nicole: And I under, I under

Sally: you can't fix it until people understand it.

Dr. Nicole: Right. Right. And there's compromise in saying like, okay, you don't wanna engage in this sexual act.

We're monogamous. I'm not going to do it. And that okay. But god dammit, when I hear monogamous people say like, oh, my partner doesn't like this, but eventually I'll get them there. I'm like, holy fuck. That is so scary to me to hear. Yeah. Like what? Like what?

Sally: Yeah. And where are their friends? And why is no one stepping in?

And, [01:02:00] and because it's normal. It's not even considered a, a thing to be concerned about to begin with. This is, this is the norm. That's what we're fighting up against, you know, the entirety of, of, anyways, it's a lot. I know, but it's, it's the heart of it all right there. Yeah. In some ways. Yeah. Yeah. And it's complex too.

'cause like, you know, people get to make those choices and those relationships where. I don't want to, but I want to make my partner happy. And that's an honest choice that people can make for themselves. But you can't know that from outside. Right. And you absolutely can't say that from a position of there are actually no other choices.

There actually aren't better options. This person actually can't, you know, we don't have an easy way to, to make sure that everyone's sexual needs are met.

Dr. Nicole: Right.

Sally: Without coercion. Like that's that we, we haven't set up society like that. Totally. And we could, we have the power to change it.

Dr. Nicole: Totally. And I think that a similar dynamic is thinking about the world where it's like, oh, do I wanna have kids or not?

Well, I know my partner wants to, so I think like, I'll do it like that. Right. And, and. [01:03:00] Until we have a world where the option of not is possible, we can't really even comprehend how much of that pressure is inside of us too. Right? Sure. So like these questions of like, oh, it's okay to compromise and do this.

It's like, how feasible is a world of non-monogamy for you? Because if you think about that world and you say, it's impossible, I could never, I'd be too jealous, then I don't free will. But that's a question of free will right there. Like, there you go. Is your compromise really a free will when the other option seems impossible?

Sally: Great. And when you're making those compromises, like who are you affected? Like those children are now being born to at least one parent that may or may not be super enthused about having someone attached to them every day and you see that the rest of their life.

Dr. Nicole: I've seen that. Yes.

Sally: Yes. And it's hard 'cause people don't wanna talk about it.

People don't wanna talk about, you know, regretting having their children and don't wanna talk about the difficulties of it. Right. That it's real, it's it's real, whether we talk about it or not. And, um. Yung in psychology, which, which seeps into our like collective unconscious and all of our different, um, bigotries and biases and all of the ways that we take out [01:04:00] this frustration, um, in society, in ways that we don't wanna acknowledge.

Right. So it's, it's hard. That's totally, people have a lot of trauma work to do. Everyone has a lot of trauma work to be doing, I think. Yes.

Dr. Nicole: And I think specifically about sex. Sure. Uh, like specific, like I just see so much work in this era. I mean, when you look at repressive religions, that's where we see the most of the sexual violence and problems, right?

Sally: Yes, yes. But you can't really disconnect that again, from like, from class and from racialization, from disability and all of these other factors. They're not separate things really. They're just, um. I don't know how to describe it. Like when you put light through a prism and you see the different colors.

It's all just the same light though. It's all the same energy.

Dr. Nicole: For sure. If that makes sense. Yeah, for sure. I just, I want the book on this sexual anarchy. Where is that? You know? Do you, do you have, you gotta write it. I'm not gonna write it. I'm working on something else. Oh, man. But if you write it, yeah, totally.

I keep thinking about it. I do. I really do. I do, yeah. I eventually, yeah, I told my, I get too excited. [01:05:00] I don't know about you as a content creator. I get excited, like I get really excited and I'm like, Ooh. It's like, it's like it's the creative push, it's the energy, it's that zest for life. You're like, oh. I could do all this.

And then you get so ex I get overwhelmed and I'm like, dude, you still have to get outta grad school. Like, you can't even get, like, I can't even go, you know? So I'm like,

Sally: well, you could write a book without being a grad, but you know. Yes, I hear you. You have all these other commitments and obligations to get through.

First. It's only so much time and energy. Totally, totally. Taking it slow, it's so easy. Yeah. To get excited to have the, the, the image of it in your mind, and then you go to put it into like an outline and you're like, ah, fuck. How do I make all these ideas go together?

Dr. Nicole: For sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think part of it too, at least for me, is the difficulties of the professionalism con like.

Construct that I've gone through for the last like five years of like writing papers in a very specific voice, right? Mm-hmm. So the idea of coming into a podcast space where I'm dynamic in with you and I'm doing my, like natural voice and personhood easy, the idea of sitting down for a book, I suddenly feel like I need to show up in a certain way that's not my own voice.[01:06:00] 

Sally: Oh, interesting. Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: I'm like, interesting. I must be professional. I must type, type, type, type, type, type. Like this. Yeah. Like a respectability politics sort of meets

Sally: Yes. Anarchism. And then you're like, how do I, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But there's nothing respectable about this, I think is the point. I think that even aspiring to respectability speaks to a, yeah.

Speaks to the, the inval, like the values that are inherent to our systems. Yeah. I don't know. So let the voice be free maybe is the advice Yeah. To myself in some ways. Well, I mean, I don't know. This is something I kind of struggle with, with academics in general, is that you kind of, you're, you're constraint by the, the rules of academia and by the.

The incentivization that goes into making sure your researchers are funded and that your programs are, you know, producing what the university expects you to produce to a certain degree. It's just difficult. Um, not impossible. Yeah. But a lot of, a lot of consideration needs to go into it, man. So I don't, I don't end, I don't envy you.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, thanks. I [01:07:00] mean, this space

is fun though, right? This is the space where I do get to be my full self. I give you, I gave you my raw unprocessed consciousness today of like,

Sally: if you weren't gonna write a book, you could just write, like listen to your, your podcast and be like, okay, this is what I need to cover exactly for this chapter.

It's true. It's true. Or you can just let the podcast exist as it is, you know, different, different art, different things for different people. That's what I've thought too, like what does it mean to honor this?

Dr. Nicole: And like even the hierarchy of being like, oh, I must write a book to be like true.

Sally: Like to be for real about it.

Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Well, it's such a joy to co-collaborate and, and connect, you know, you were talking about, um, the community and how that impacts me. I really do feel like all of these conversations, when I get to show up as my raw and authentic self, I'm, I'm seen in other people and pushed and challenged and grow and, and so I'm really always thankful to have this space with other, other people.

Sally: Yeah. It's the most enjoyable part. Yeah. See the interesting bits, the similarities and the differences in all of that, it's

Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

Sally: The joy of human connection or something. [01:08:00] 

Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah. One of those most part, uh, invaluable parts of our, our journey I think is, is really the relationships.

Sally: Yeah. Yeah.

Arguably that's why we're here.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Sally: Thank you for having me on.

Dr. Nicole: Totally. Yeah. I wanna hold some space too. I always check in with my guests and we take a deep breath at the end.

Is there anything else that you wanna share with the listeners? Otherwise I can guide us towards a closing question.

Sally: No, stay tuned, I guess. Yeah. Possible. Who knows? We'll continue to run you guys. Yeah, right. Who knows where we'll be a year from now. It'll be a, a different world maybe, maybe not.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I see that world as stronger.

I see that world as more grounded. I see that world of like taking even deeper breaths into pleasure. It, it feels good when I think about it.

Sally: Yeah. Yeah. All of those. And also more desperate, I think. We'll see.

Dr. Nicole: [01:09:00] Yeah. Well, if it feels good to you, then I'll, um, ask our closing question. Yeah, please. Okay. So the one question that I ask everyone on the podcast is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

I know.

Sally: And I knew this question was coming and I didn't think about it. Trust your gut. Trust the intuition. Yeah. Um, I think what I wish people knew was more normal was the, um, the ability to transgress the option to transgress. You know, it's more normal than, you know, people don't talk about it. People talk about it in code, people put it into their artwork, but you meet anybody and you will find the ability to transgress.

And uh, and I think that tapping into that will lead us to where we want to go. I think that like no matter who you are, there are parts of your tradition, of your culture, of your, of the hierarchies that you've been informed by that you don't like and that you might not necessarily want to speak to or, or speak to, but don't know what to do about.

And I think that listening to those parts is gonna [01:10:00] get us to a future where that is a little less hierarchical. And I say a little less, but I'm again, like my ideal future is a world without hierarchy point, blank period. So it's as radical as you could possibly imagine it. And it's a muscle, it's a muscle that I've learned to work and that I'm still not.

It's not as strong as it could be, but I can feel myself getting better at it. Hell yeah. I can see what I can imagine in ways that I could never imagine when I was younger. So it's, I think it's worth doing. And there are ways, and there are other people, there are other people, you can talk to them sometimes and you can, you know, swap ideas and swap recipes and see what you come up with.

It's wild.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. What a world. Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like that's what anarchists have always done is dream. Yes. Right? Yes. So here in our context of the now, knowing that we'll pass on and that other people will take up the torch of that word, I think it's important to continually dream of what is possible.

And I really love that, that look,

Sally: nothing is possible until someone thinks it up.

Dr. Nicole: Right?

Sally: Someone has to imagine it first. Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: And the, the creative muscle [01:11:00] that that is, I often, I often talk about it in terms of fantasies and sexuality, right? Sure. Of like Sure. Dreaming of what's possible and that being a muscle with my clients, right?

Oh yeah. Like you have to start. Yeah. But also in terms of, I find that muscle so deeply connected to also the dream of envisioning a different culture, a one of a radically different power, um, sharing than we have right now. And, and both of those being like a creative process that we can absolutely continue to flex.

Sally: Yes. What about you? Any final and last notes? Anything coming up for you? Oh,

Dr. Nicole: I guess I'm really touched by our conversation about what it means to go back to our younger selves. I, I, I love throwing that question in for my guest every now and then, and I am. Always wanting to grow and get better, as are you. As are. I think all people were always wanting to grow and get better, right?

Yeah. And just to like give ourselves compassion for the ways that [01:12:00] part of that growth means messing up and to. Mm-hmm. I really loved what you had said of like, I was right where I was meant to be, and what does it mean to allow myself that right now as I'm trying to find these words as I'm scratching for all this, like, you're right where you're meant to be.

It's good. It's good. It's messy, but it's good. And like feeling into that, I'd love to take that away from this conversation and I, I hope all of the listeners can take that away too, of like wherever they're at in their journey of unpacking their pleasure. Mm-hmm. To feel into the, you belong right where you're at right now.

Oh, absolutely.

Sally: Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Sally: Thank you. I think beautiful articulation. Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: Well, it was such a pleasure to have you on the show.

Sally: Pleasure to talk with you. What a fun conversation.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Where for people who are connecting with you and love your ideas, where can they find your content?

Sally: They can find me on YouTube again.

I am on hiatus at the moment, so maybe when this comes out, that won't be the case anymore. We'll see. But it's rel A-N-R-E-L, short for Arco relating. That's where most of my content goes. Yeah. [01:13:00] Other than Matt, you could follow me on Twitter, but it's bad for your health, so.

Dr. Nicole: Well, it's so great to have you on the podcast today.

Thank you for joining us. So good to be here. Yeah. Thank you for helping me. Great. If you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast, and head on over to modern anarchy podcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode.

I wanna thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.