[00:00:00] Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Nicole.
On today's episode, we have flow join us for another relationship anarchy research conversation. Together we talk about balancing autonomy and community care, embracing the inevitability of change, and expanding into deeper love. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world.
Tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration therapy. And I am also the founder of The Pleasure Practice. Supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships. Dear listener, hello.
It is such a joy to be bringing you another relationship anarchy conversation. If you are new to this series, this all started from my dissertation, which is now in the copy editing phase to be released and published soon in an academic sense. But if you want to read it right now, it's on my website for free.
Um, but yeah, these questions are questions that I explored in my dissertation and When I was going through it, I was just loving how much I was learning and the ways that these interviews were informing my own practice, and so I knew I wanted to bring this type of conversation to the podcast, and I have been so honored by all of the relationship anarchists from around the world who have trusted me to come onto the show.
Thank you. I couldn't do this without all of you, and dear listener, if you are a relationship anarchist and you are feeling the call to join me on A zoom link to have a conversation like this to come onto the podcast to share your experience with all of the listeners here. Please follow the link below.
Truly, I am honored every time that I get to talk to one of you dear listeners about this very, very special thing called relationship anarchy and. Yeah. Just happy to be here with all of you, and I hope you too are enjoying the process. All right. If you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and resources at modernanarchypodcast.
com, linked in the show notes below. And I want to say the biggest thank you to all my Patreon supporters. You are supporting the long term sustainability of the podcast. Keeping this content free and accessible to all people and we have a new patreon member I want to say a big shout out to Lynnae Hi, thank you for joining I have so much gratitude for you and all the patreon members truly It is you that are keeping this show going each week, and it is such a joy to get to hear how the podcast has resonated with you and get to have these more private, intimate conversations and sharing my life with all of you Patreon members, so big shout out to Linnae and all of the Patreon members that are tuning in.
And with that, dear listener, please know that I am sending you all my love and Let's tune into today's episode. And so the first question that I like to ask each guest is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?
[00:04:16] Mx. Flow: My name's Flow I'm a semi nomadic, I guess, van person. Um, I've been doing music the last few years, and I guess, like, independent sort of philosophy writing for much longer.
When I was in school, I studied philosophy for a bit, but I didn't finish the bachelor's. I like to think I, like, went to school, learned a bunch of argumentation, and then critically fought my way out of higher education.
[00:04:46] Nicole: Sure, sure, sure, sure. Well, welcome to the show. It's a great to have you and be able to talk about relationship anarchy.
I'm really excited. Yeah, this is one of those topics I feel like gives me so much energy whenever I meet another relationship anarchist. Uh, I too have a deep love for philosophy, so I'm sure we are just going to go back and forth on some of these deeper theoretical ideas and, and really the joy that that brings me that I'm sure it brings you and why you're here today.
Yeah. All right. So the first question is, what is relationship anarchy?
[00:05:23] Mx. Flow: So, I know I feel like it varies a lot between people, but to me it is like really the More like holistic application of anarchist philosophy, and uh, I feel like there's like a really common perception of anarchism as like a strictly political philosophy, and while I think that's really important, I feel like one of the things that distinguishes anarchism from a lot of other ideologies is the way I think you can apply it like in the granular interpersonal interactions.
[00:05:54] Nicole: Mm hmm.
[00:05:56] Mx. Flow: Relationship anarchism is this practice or project almost of internalizing ways of relating to each other and looking and trying to create more egalitarian and autonomous relationships.
In a way that I feel like a lot of other relationship forms, I feel like almost like work backwards from like describing something where, at least for me, relationship anarchism was like an implementation of a philosophy.
[00:06:23] Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah, definitely. And so do you see that as inherently political?
[00:06:28] Mx. Flow: I feel like it's impossible to remove it from its political context.
[00:06:32] Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, you want to say more?
[00:06:36] Mx. Flow: Well, I feel like everything on a real level, like, is political and reflects our relationship to, like, hegemony. And even in, like, casual conversations, if you, like, talk about trying to relate to one another without, like, An adversarial or oppositional relationship, you're sort of setting yourself apart from that mainstream.
[00:06:59] Nicole: Yeah, I think about the feminist saying the personal is the political and the ways that, yeah, everything that we do is inherently political. And I think That's part of the power of relationship anarchy is waking up to how deeply internalized these systems of power are, and often on a unconscious level, until you look at them years later going, Oh, damn, I was doing that thing that I had no idea.
But now when I look back, I see how the systems were deeply in my own psyche unconsciously.
[00:07:32] Mx. Flow: Yeah, that was like a whole, like reflecting back on it. It's been a whole thing for me. I I relate this in the, the relationship anarchism essay, where one of my former relationships, the person wanted to like, marry someone to help them get out of a tricky situation.
And at the time, I like, I gave a relationship ultimatum where I was like, no, I don't want to deal with that. I refuse. Um. And I sort of reflect now where I'm like, I feel like that was like a failure on my part. I think it was like understandable. It's very emotionally like graspable why I would feel that way.
But I also feel like I could have done better. And I feel like I have sort of modeled a lot of my later decision making around looking out for other people's autonomy.
[00:08:22] Nicole: Sure. Wow. What a nuanced topic, right? Of the navigation of autonomy and community connection and community care. Wow. Wow. Those two values can rub up against each other.
And I think that's where we see a lot of the humanness of our experience, right? What does it mean to practice with freedom and a freedom that is understanding that every single action I take will have an impact on other people? Okay, like that, that kind of awareness when you're trying to process that in your relationships and navigate whether you're going to make this decision thinking about all the people it can impact.
Wow. That is a lot to reflect on. So it makes sense as you continue to practice, like you were saying this practice, right? The further you practice, the more, when you look back, you'll have more wisdom and hindsight and look at things differently. Um, but always kind of having that intention of self governance as something that you're moving towards.
[00:09:20] Mx. Flow: Yeah. I can see the process, too, and how, I mean, like, part of the reason I'm, like, I am a relationship anarchist is because I I think it works really well. I think it's a good way to model relationships. That makes them more pleasant for everyone involved and I can sort of sometimes see when I meet other people who haven't who don't approach relationships in the same way.
I feel like a lot of suffering and I'm like, ah, narrowly avoided that one. Like last night I was at a trans party and I do like harm reduction tabling and so we'll have like a table with Condoms, lube, Narcan, etc. And we'll have half of it be zines. And so I hand out my Relationship anarchism zine.
[00:10:02] Nicole: Cool.
[00:10:04] Mx. Flow: Some people find it like really like immediately articulates They're what they believe inside but haven't been able to find the words for I've had other people read it and be like I disagree with every line,
[00:10:15] Nicole: right? Yeah, we need diversity in our ecosystems. There's always gonna be people who it resonates with and who it doesn't, right?
Uh, yeah, I'm curious. You know, when you had started talking, you said that it's an embodiment of anarchist value. So when I hear that, I think about, Yeah, I agree. The concept of mutual aid and sharing of resources. I think about this concept of self governance that we were just talking about and the ways that we want to move with autonomy and then also the ways that that autonomy is connected to community care.
Right? And so those are some of the values I think of. I'm curious if you think of any other values that are important.
[00:10:52] Mx. Flow: I think that that is most of it. The way in which I tend to approach it is, I feel like there's almost sort of a Buddhist lens where, um, In Buddhism, the Buddha talks about how when we genuinely look after ourselves, in effect, we are looking after others because we understand how our welfare is sort of like codependent on one another.
What anarchism sort of can be as an applied philosophy is almost like a virtue ethic, where the virtue centrally seems to be like autonomy.
And we can understand freedom in this like positive way of like, sure we have the freedom to like go in the woods and die, technically, but that's kind of like a shitty freedom like most people don't want to do that.
I don't want to do that. I'd much more prefer like the freedom to like paint all day or like create art in community or be able to like help people in a direct and tangible way. And so I feel like when I'm applying it to relationships, I'm like, okay, if the main thing is autonomy and I want everyone to have like a really positive kind of freedom, like, how can I live my life and communicate in that way and do it with other people?
[00:12:04] Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot more control in how you show up, right? The other people, their situations, the things that are outside of our control. But what you can control is that your own internal self reflection, the ways you want to show up to, you know, really make that change that you want to see in the world and starting really with yourself for that.
[00:12:24] Mx. Flow: That's a really important thing to me is like the prefigurative nature of it is like if we want a society where we're actually all equal I feel like we do really need to start with like how we're relating to one another on a basic level And a lot of things like follow on from that
[00:12:39] Nicole: Mm hmm, yeah, yeah Well, maybe that leads into the second question then which is how do you practice it, right?
How do you actually live out what you are saying in your life?
[00:12:52] Mx. Flow: I think a lot of it actually is pushing against a sense of what I'd call a cultural awkwardness, almost. I remember really clearly years back I was listening to, I think, what was it, This American Life. And it was a sit in of like a consent teach in at a college.
And there were some guys there, some regular old bros, who very earnestly, they weren't like shitposting, they were like, but what about the mood? And If I ask to do thing won't the mood die and I was like damn man like I can understand you want to preserve the mood but like have you considered the mood might be better if people had a sense of like Not like, oh, yeah, I guess I could technically say no at some point, but someone's sort of empowering you to have that control.
And so I feel like one of the biggest things for me is like going out of my way to overcome Anxiety or awkwardness, especially around consent. Like I was at a party at one point, you know, We're on the dance floor and we're like flirting with our bodies basically and I'm like, okay I want to be able to communicate consent to this person and in doing so sort of help lift up their ability to make decisions for themselves by like asserting, Hey, I'm going to care and acknowledge what you want with this engagement and I really want you to communicate that to me.
So in the lab dance floor I lean up and I'm like, Hey, if I'm doing anything you don't like start like tapping me. I think a lot of applied relationship anarchism is like overcoming these patterns we get stuck in and patterns that we replicate from the wider society, especially because so many relationships are like founded on opposition and like frameworks of trying to dominate one or another.
[00:14:45] Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, particularly in sex, which is what you were speaking to earlier, right? This question of, oh my gosh, does the, uh, is the mood killed by asking someone to do something, right? If they want to do something. I think what we're speaking to is the ways that, yes, the system, the culture around, even for that example, right?
Sexuality has, gosh, just go back to any right now, um, you can watch rom coms from earlier years and like, it's all very heteronormative and it's always the man pursuing the woman and then the woman going, No, I don't want you. And he goes, well, I'm going to pursue you even harder then. And we're supposed to as the audience be like, wow, he is just pushing through her boundaries of no, because he wants her so badly.
And that's what we're attracted to. You know, when you watch those, it's always like, I mean, at least for me jarring, but at the time it culturally was not. And I think people are slowly, you know, all the different movements that we've had collectively to become more aware of concepts like consent, which is still needing even more.
As you spoke to, and as we see, right? And so, yeah, things are slowly changing in the same way that nature slowly changes, right? We're having these very slow temperature changes around concepts like that, and I think this question of consent is very key to relationship anarchy, because what I've seen is this deep embrace of change, and the ways that relationships change over time.
No human being is that, like, you can meet them, Be in relationship with them for 10 years and that person you are now in relationship with is not the same person that you met, right? Just flat out because people change. Everything in life is changing. And so what does it mean to embrace the fact that consent is ongoing?
Sure. Maybe you consented to this part of the dynamic and expectations and commitment. And maybe a few years later, things have absolutely changed. And so what does it mean to embrace consent, both in an erotic sense and in a relational sense of the ways that we move and change over the years?
[00:16:53] Mx. Flow: The respecting the change thing, I feel like is an important part of enabling other people's autonomy is also that like, when you enter into a relationship, like really any kind of relationship, there's, I feel like there can in our culture often be an assertion that like.
This is how it's going to be. Like, we met, we're dating, we're gonna move in, get married, etc, etc. Or like, we're friends, we're gonna go fishing on Sunday. Every Sunday. And I think it fucks people up. It gets them stuck in ways of relating to each other, and when one or more part isn't working, it tends to like, destroy the whole thing.
So like, I've had one longer term relationship where, for the first few years, we like, kept trying to have sex, but the way in which both of us related to sex is like radically different and not in like hard opposition but they're like divergent enough that it's like hard for us to like manage that well together and so I we ended up getting to a point where I was like okay let's stop having sex entirely and just like stay in this relationship and the emotional intimacy and connection got a lot better after we were able to sort of Be real about what was going to work best for both of us without feeling like, oh, no, it's not a relationship because we didn't do the pre described relationship things.
[00:18:17] Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Reconfiguring, right? Reconfiguring what is on the table or off the table for your dynamic. I think about things like the smorgasbord, right? The ability to design your relationships and choose what you want on it versus off. Yeah, there's so much. You know, clarity that can come from that, but like you're speaking to, oh, the level of unconscious internalization of the systems.
It is so deep, because for years, you have been taught, myself, all of us, and reinforced through every relationship we have in our life, that the escalator of this, then that, then this, you know, you, you date, you have sex, you become exclusive, you live together, la la la la la. That shit is deep within our own psyche, and so whether you are trying to get out of it or not, there's an unconscious drive that has been implanted, and then we are all dealing with the relational paradox, this threat of, if I become myself or embody this value, will it cause others to leave me, right, which can be the answer to that question.
seen in, you know, someone, for example, like my mother, who's a Mormon mom, you know what she wants to see her daughter to be happy. Sure. But, um, to get married, live with one person, have kids and do the thing. And so that impacts me, whether I like it or not on an unconscious level, because she is there, let alone our school systems, our work locations, whoever we're around the power of community to really impact us on this level is.
[00:19:51] Mx. Flow: Oh yeah, I definitely feel that in relation to like the parent influence. My, fortunate for me, my parents have been together for like 40 years at this point. They had a bunch of kids, so the thing that was always modeled to me growing up was like, Live in long term monogamous marriage and until really until I was 18.
That was like the image I had in my head I was like, okay two people they go on a romantic date with candles and then things go like this and I had this, um It was a little weird like an awakening at 18 where I had like my very first kiss and then I was like wait a minute That sounds dumb No shade for anyone who enjoys candlelit dinners, but it was like I recognized that the things that were attached to that kind of relationship form were just going to be very unpleasant for me and was really thankful I was able to like avoid that.
So like all my relationships for the last like 10 years have all been like polyamorous from the get go and relationship anarchism really came on the last four or five years. And I feel like this, at least in conversations I have with people is like a noticeable distinction in the way in which I.
approach and think about relationships with other people. I've always sort of had that your life is your life almost kind of thing. Whereas I've met other people who are like, Oh yeah, I want to know like all your partners and like how you relate to them and all the specificity. I'm like, I talk about my partners because they're important to me and I love them.
But I don't have like a list in my head and sometimes when people ask me, I'm like, I don't know, there's some people out there. We do stuff. They live places.
And I feel like that kind of categorization comes from the internalized, like trying to make your relationships intelligible to the greater society is like, how can I explain this in a way where it's like, oh, it's like monogamy, but different.
Right. Which is I feel like what a lot of polyamory becomes is just sort of like monogamy asterisk. Whereas I feel like relationship anarchism, even if it's only one person being romantically and sexually with one other person, still tries to like transcend that kind of dynamic.
[00:22:20] Nicole: Right. Yeah, I would say that the relationship anarchy practice exists in a third space.
It's neither inherently monogamous or non monogamous. There are people who practice sexual fidelity and relationship anarchy. There are people who practice, you know, expansive self governance around sexuality, you know, things like polyamory, other sorts of stuff like that, that would all fall under relationship anarchy, which exists almost in a third space.
And I would say, Okay. that the relationship anarchist says we all have multiple relationships. Let's start there. At minimum to nature, at minimum to your environment, okay, let alone your family, the people you work around, the people you live around, all of that stuff we are in relationship to. And so we all already have multiple human relationships.
And then it's this deeper question of how do you want to interact in each one of them? You get the ability to decide in each one of your individual relationships how you want to interact and for me, I think that is the, the vision, the, the understanding that is so different than polyamory, the sense of I have multiple partners.
It's no, I, I have multiple humans around in here. We all do my friend. And then within those, what do you want to do with them? Right? It's a little bit different of a, of a paradigm.
[00:23:44] Mx. Flow: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I feel like that has been really kind of empowering for me in my relationships that aren't as romantic or sexual.
Is that I feel like trying to get out of like the cardboard boxes of the way I'm supposed to relate to other people as maybe sort of like love my friends more in a way that I feel like the dominant paradigm around like what a friend is. Yes. Would make at least awkward. And I feel like it's, it's, it's made me feel closer to a lot of people in ways that I feel like is pushed against by society in a lot of cases.
[00:24:29] Nicole: Absolutely. That's definitely something that I saw in my research, this full saturation of love, you know, again, when you think of the narrative as the one, you're going to get married to the one and do the one thing versus, Oh my gosh, I have a whole community, you know, and you start to feel that. And so when you're with each human, you say, wow, this is a full relationship right here.
Oh my gosh. You know, and you start to connect in that way. You start to see more color, more saturation because you're outside of that one frame that said the one, and this is going to be the one where you feel all this joy. You start to feel that more in your other relationships. And so I think that is a big piece of what results from that paradigm shift.
[00:25:13] Mx. Flow: Absolutely. And I really, I feel like the society's or our society's influence or urging that we have our one partner who fulfills every single need we've ever had for everything for all time. And that's a lot to put on one person like playing one genre of music is hard enough, being someone's everything feels like.
unsustainable. And that was sort of what attracted me to polyamory in the broad sense initially, was feeling like, well, I have all these like complex desires that sometimes go in opposite ways. And like a person I can have a long conversation about philosophy with is not necessarily the same person I like want to have sex with.
And I can have Many people to sort of fill those needs in my life.
[00:26:03] Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah. Finding that diversity, right? All the different connections, all the different ways that we can have parts of ourselves seen and then finding that intimacy. And I mean, also we We're more isolated than we've ever been culturally, right?
Yeah. And that concept of the one, you know, in the 50s, you know, people were more connected then and we've gotten more and more individualized. Um, and you know, and then before the 1950s, that was not even a concept, you know, and so we can go back to the historical roots of how we existed in broader communities and didn't always have this practice of monogamy, but that's a whole different conversation.
Yeah. You know what I mean? So, uh, yeah, so absolutely. And, and the more that, uh, Esther Perel always talks about the ways that society used to be so religious. And now as that paradigm is slowly crumbling, we are replacing that sort of salvation narrative on to our romantic partners. And that was a part of the movement of the 1950s, sort of even the 19th century sort of romance myth that kind of came in.
And so we have this fall away of religion, the rise of romance, and hyper individualism under capitalism. And so now we have this deep, you are going to be my salvation. You are going to be my everything. And I know not everyone functions under that, but it's often deeply internalized.
[00:27:24] Mx. Flow: Oh yeah. Well, one thing I feel like comes up for me too is I just spent like two and a half months staying at a monastery in Northern California, where I was really focusing on the metta, which is usually translated as like loving kindness or sometimes like compassion meditation.
And I feel like in practicing that deeply, it's sort of like chips away at those, almost like edifices. Of how relationships are supposed to be, or how you're supposed to feel more or less restrained towards different people. And while I was there, I was thinking a lot about the different types of sort of love in relating to people, like the, when the Buddha talks about loving kindness meditation, one of the things he talks about is the same way a mother would love her only child, you should like regard all beings.
And so one thing that came up for me while I was there was looking at the nuns and being like, in a sense, they are my children. I give them food, I give them clothes, I come to their classes. They're like materially dependent on lay people for supplies and food, etc. That brought a really, I think, interesting and I feel like cherished sense of love for me that wasn't, that I feel like that kind of love transcended a lot of the, I want to say like body or material rooting for a lot of it.
[00:28:50] Nicole: Sure. Absolutely. Yeah. So that practice of seeing love in the stranger, right? That's on the street. I mean, gosh, the field of clinical psychology would have so much to say about this. My goodness. Dare I say, I love one of my clients. That's like highly inappropriate within the field of psychology. But from a Buddhist practice, right?
This idea of practicing love for a stranger that I could look across and see another human being and think about our shared humanness and, and their world and their universe of meaning making and have love for them. Of course, but dare I apply it in my clinical practice? Oh my goodness, so I see the connections to what you're saying in terms of the ways of practicing that for all people, also creating this deeper sense of love that you felt.
And I'm sure even with that, uh, you know, more space to not be so attached to outcome while having relational attachment to the people in your world, right? The more you're able to meditate and cultivate that sense of love for yourself. Self, the less clingy, you know, claws teeth into other people trying to control them.
You are. 'cause you can focus on building that for yourself while still actually being relationally attached. Right. So it's this, mm-hmm . You know, lack of attachment to the outcome. I think there's a little bit more peace with that. But I'm curious, you know, you're speaking to some of the ways that you know, relationship.
Anarchy brings these important experiences into your life, why else do you practice relationship anarchy? Why is this important to you?
[00:30:21] Mx. Flow: The way I sort of got into it feels a little silly. I've been an anarchist in general longer than I've been a relationship anarchist. My approach to polyamory beforehand, I think, was very close.
It was already sort of in the same region as a lot of people who do RA. And I was staying at a house, trans people, uh, in Arizona. And someone was like, yeah, I think I just do, like, relationship anarchy. And I was like, cool, I'm gonna think deeply about that for a long time now. Um, I think it was just the idea of, like, integrating the things I care about and the different philosophies I have across the whole of my life.
I feel like having my ideas and my beliefs meaningfully reflected in my behavior is really crucial to me. It's sort of, I have a big beef with Protestant Christianity in America, primarily in terms of how I feel like when it approaches religiosity, it emphasizes Like agreeing with a list of beliefs, like, do you, do you agree with this thing, this thing, and this thing, and I feel like it makes us lose sight of the importance of behavior and how important living our beliefs is to feeling good and being authentic with ourselves and others.
And it's really hard to do, for sure, but I feel like that behavioral approach. Is like significant and often like lost in our society.
[00:31:50] Nicole: Sure. Sure. Sure. Well, I think that's a great connection then to the next question, which is how does a relationship anarchy impact your practice of intimacy? Yeah. Why don't you speak to some of the ways that that impacts your behavior and or the behavior you receive from other people?
[00:32:07] Mx. Flow: Yeah. I think for me, the biggest way RA has impacted my intimacy is seeking more open and genuine communication. As well as like looking inside and being like, what do I actually want? Like, is this thing like worth it for me? Am I motivated to do this thing? And having a lot more moments of like stopping, sort of checking in with myself.
A few weeks ago someone was like, ah, do you want to come over, but I'm really tired, so we're probably just going to like, fall asleep immediately, and I was like, what I really want is like, an intense, intimate sex session. And I won't get that if I do that, but also, I'm like, I know I would enjoy it, it would feel intimate, and so I had to sort of like, check in with myself, what do I really want?
What's available to me? Like, how can I interface with the options in front of me? And I feel like those self check ins help cultivate a lot of emotional awareness. That is, I feel like, a difficult skill that I've not seen emphasized that much of, like, learning how to listen to what you're feeling and what you actually want.
Yeah. Because I feel like being so dependent on the relationship forms is being like, oh, I don't have to, like, check in with what I want. I've been told what I want, so I'll just do that. But learning how to stop and be like, okay. What do I actually want out of this relationship, this connection, this evening?
And so once I got there with the intimacy, I was able to sort of communicate a lot more clearly to people. And part of that, I credit With all the random people who are like, so what do you like and me having to be like, ah, good question.
[00:33:48] Nicole: Sure. Yep. Yep. Yep. Absolutely.
[00:33:52] Mx. Flow: But once I sort of hit that point of, I guess, self awareness, it was a lot easier to sit down and be like, okay, like these things, I like them done this way.
I feel this way about these things. I think doing that, I see this reflected in other people, makes other people feel a lot more comfortable sharing what is important to them when you're able to sort of initiate part of that vulnerability.
[00:34:16] Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I find that level of self awareness also to be a practice, right?
I have more of it today than I did yesterday. Check. And then I keep repeating that it seems. Next I go, dang, well, today I've got more. Okay. Yeah, you know, and it's, it's that practice of continually learning and learning, you know, um, often our emotions can be signs of, you know, a boundary that has been crossed, right?
Or some sort of line that maybe we felt like we should have drawn, but we didn't know until now we're frustrated. or hurt or upset. And so those emotions often speak to that. Sometimes I don't even realize until I'm crying that there was something I wanted or needed. Right? And so it is that act of yes, internal reflection on, you know, particularly people pleasing tendencies.
Oh my God. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And then when you start to really love the people that you're around. Oh gosh. Okay. So now if I make this decision over here, it will impact this decision over there and impact that human that I love, right? Or even broader systems, you know, we can think even climate, other sorts of stuff.
I've really enjoyed the relationship anarchists who have pushed this sort of conversation beyond just human dynamics. Um, but when I think about my human relationships, just the way that I can know my own self desires today because they change every day. Oh my god, they change all the time. Um, but then trying to think about the ways that that impacts other people and what it means for them and how it will land for them and how it impacts the whole system.
Oh gosh, that is a practice. It is a practice and also therefore requires so much communication because even once you realize what you want. The next step of verbalizing that can be scary, can be very vulnerable. It can be very tender. And then again, now we're dealing with a human on the other side that we don't know how they're going to respond.
Right? And so just the nuance of this practice really, uh, I think there's so much to learn, so much to speak to the communities that taught you by asking you, what do you want, right? And so in so many ways, we are all each other's teachers and we are always learning from one another as we go through this journey of learning to communicate our desires and even identify them.
[00:36:42] Mx. Flow: Oh yeah. I definitely feel, too, the like, The expansion of relationship anarchism to not just human relationships. When I'm talking about it with people, I usually, I sell it on the basis of human relationships because that's what people tend to be more open to. But there is like a really important part of it for me that like relates to animal liberation and like how I Relate to other animals and I feel like it comes out in the way I like interface with animals when I'm in society so in, um, over the winter I live in a place called slab city, or sometimes we have more dogs and people, and there's a high amount of dog autonomy, if you will, where dogs have like way more control over their actual lives in slabs than anywhere else I live, where dogs are domesticated.
And it's sort of nice sometimes to be on a first name basis with many dogs, many more dogs than people. Um, and so sometimes when I think about like my friends or I'm doing like loving kindness meditation where sometimes we go through like specific people. I think of one of my dog friends and I'm like, Oh, I love that dog.
Good friends with that dog. We've hung out a lot. I've said a lot of words that like. Expanding friendship to not have to be confined even to, like, humanness, but relating to other non human animals, not as just, like, a possession or a thing for my comfort or pleasure, but as an individual being that I can be, like, okay.
We don't speak English, but we're friends, I can tell.
[00:38:17] Nicole: Well, and the choices that you make impact their environment, right? The choices we make as consumers are going to impact those abilities for those dogs to function in the ecosystem, right, for years to come. That's, uh, you know, something that's really crucial is to think about the ways that we are impacting.
All these other beings, right? I often think about, uh, the generations that are going to come after us and the ways that my choices today are going to impact through ripples, of course, but the future generations, right? So I think this deeper understanding that relationships is not just to, I think the first step is for people to understand that we all have multiple relationships.
Whether you have sex with one person or not, we all have multiple relationships. And then also that we have relationships to ecosystems, to other animals, to other sorts of environments, right? We are not individual atoms. We are no longer in the Newtonian physics era, folks. We are in the quantum mechanics, understanding that no atom is by itself, right?
Not even at the center of it, other than air, you know, it's air and particles all moving around to create the atom. It is in itself. own ecosystem of an ecosystem of an ecosystem, you know? And so I think when we start to think on that level of relationships and applying these values, whoa, we have moved a few steps away from your average conversation of what a relationship is.
And that the ways in which we start to have such a deep conversation of relationships, that can often lead to a sense of isolation. And that's definitely something that I saw in my research whenever I asked this next question, which is what are the difficulties that you've experienced in relationship anarchy?
So I'm curious if that resonates with you or if you have any other answers to that question.
[00:40:09] Mx. Flow: No, I absolutely do. I feel like a lot of it is. Sort of proxy people's misunderstanding of polyamory being applied to RA or people just not understanding relationship anarchism. Like I remember, I had one particular moment where I was staying at someone's apartment, and I had given them my long essay, and She had another person over and the way she summarized it like deeply upset me upset me She was like, oh, it's just like fuck whoever you want.
Do whatever you want. And I'm like Sometimes sure, but like no, fuck you And I've seen this like repeated by a bunch of different people in my life. We're like, ah, you know, fuck anyone No feelings nothing matters and I'm like what? to me like casual emotionless sex doesn't exist and Like I had a, I had a very beautiful hookup with someone once where we were talking about the feelings that come up when you're having basically like a one night stand with someone.
And she talked about an interview with a dancer who was like when you really dance with someone like genuinely and authentically you kind of fall in love with them. And I feel like for me, like the ideal hookup is one where in which you both like genuinely fall in love with each other for that moment with a mutual understanding of like letting go.
And that feels like an important deviation from this popular understanding of polyamory as like emotionless. And I feel like I have seen bopping around especially online the idea of like, A lot of relationship anarchism people kind of being touch and go, I guess, and I feel like that can be a thing I deal with, especially as someone who's semi nomadic, is that sometimes people interpret me as less willing to do something serious, we might say, than I really am, and that can kind of lead to a lot of people maintaining distance from me, when I'm like, no, I'm like, Ready to be right here, but I'm not gonna like push for that if that isn't what the other person really wants.
A lot of the challenge of being Polly and a relationship anarchist is people just not really understanding the emotional resonance it has for me and all of the other like Polly and RA people in my life I feel like are deeply emotional about this like it's not a It's not a dispassionate thing. It's, it's, it's like right here.
[00:42:45] Nicole: Right. Absolutely. All the different judgments, the different stereotypes that people have about it. Right. That kind of speaks to what I was saying earlier at the beginning of our conversation, this act of self governance in connection with community care. Right. And so those are two pillars, two values that we're constantly kind of navigating this understanding of freedom and this understanding of community.
And so I find. That misconception that relationship anarchists just fuck whatever they want, don't care about anybody else, to be more reflective of other ideologies that are more individualistic, where anarchy has always had this deep understanding of community, just, you know, taking power away from the systems and back into the community.
Right? And so I think that that's such a deep misconception of the actual practice itself, which, you know, we're human beings, so we're gonna have Fail. You know, I think that is another piece of anarchy is always this dream, this vision of where we are moving, where we are going towards. It is a practice, right?
And so we have to understand that even though we have these values of freedom and self governance and community care and mutual aid, the lived in experience of that is gonna absolutely be messy. We have so much to unlearn, right? So it's gonna be messy, but then often people will see that and say, Oh, well, that's what R.
A. is. I don't do that. Those people are annoying or whatever they want to say about us. I don't know. You know? So I think this deep understanding of the ways that it is a practice, there are values and we are practicing it. Right. And so can we, as a collective, look at the values as a way to understand the movement?
[00:44:28] Mx. Flow: I feel like that emphasis on the values and like the thing as a practice is sort of the, if someone's like past the, I don't know, like blasé criticisms of like other forms of romantic engagement, it feels like there still remains the like, uh, The specter of ownership, I guess, um, that feels present even in relationships where we're like both trying to be relationship anarchists can still sort of hit those internalized, like habitual patterns.
And to go back to like the community and individual like almost tension. I feel like, at least like my idea of like what I would want in an ideal community is sort of almost like slightly different goalposts of like, what is something that like, will affect you emotionally but what is. but which is more your responsibility to manage?
Like, I don't think the answer for, like, a beautiful autonomous community is necessarily, like, hyper awareness of how our behavior causes, like, different emotional reactions in other people, but a sort of collective attitude and understanding of trying to foster other people's autonomy and our own, and sort of being like, I don't have to Put myself into everything and and that's sort of what I feel like the general like hetero monogamous urge is is to sort of feel like you have to be holding on to everything really tightly.
I remember one of the issues I had, um, I was living with one of my partners, and she would stay up until like 6am. Very regularly, I like to go to bed at like midnight, and I was causing myself a lot of stress because I sort of wanted to like, hold and control her sleep schedule. And so I had to be like, okay, I don't really need to control someone's sleep schedule actually.
Why, why am I trying to control her sleep schedule? Like, what, what do I want? And, when I was able to sort of like, pause from the, the ownership urge, and be like, where's this coming from? Like, what's the motivation? And be like, okay, what I really want is like, I want to lay in bed with her before we fall asleep.
I like that feeling of intimacy. It makes me feel close. And so I was able to say what I want and be like, can you tuck me in? And so like midnight, I'd go up to bed and she'd tuck me in and give me a kiss on the forehead. And then she'd go do computer things for a million hours.
[00:47:03] Nicole: Right. Yeah. So yeah, the, the thought process of having to recognize that this desire for control.
was coming from a space of an actual want, you know, some sort of pleasure that we were seeking in the relationship itself. And so to do this sort of mental insight work to realize, Oh, I'm trying to control so I can get this thing. Why don't I just ask for this thing directly rather than the act of control?
Yeah, those are some of the skills I definitely saw in my research, right? Of participants naming. What a journey it is to become aware of that desire and then to ask for it as an ask, as a request, not a controlling demand. That's a very different thing. But to ask, Hey, can you meet me here? Right? This comes back to our conversation around consent is mutually.
Consenting, so we're not trying to control the other person. We're saying, Hey, are you willing to tuck me in? This is actually what I want. I realized from before I was trying to get that by controlling you. Right. And then I think the tricky piece of it though, is. Oh man, attachment, oh my gosh, the more we go deep into these, building these relationships, sure there's more security because you have more days that you have shared with that human and they have been a part of your world and your life and it has been stable and oh, that is beautiful.
And also, the deeper you go, the more those people are a part of your world. And your heart and you know, how scary it can be when things start to move with those sorts of people. So this desire, this urge for control, oh my gosh, even on like a primal level, just to like keep things the same and don't let them move is.
Very, very real. And very, very, very, very scary. I just want to name the reality of it. It's something that I always do my best to work through and not use ultimatums or control. Oh my gosh, the kind of fear that can come up with that. Wow. Wow. And then when you start to share spaces together, communities together.
Gosh, the closer you get in this community is the more that choice that one of my lovers has to start a new relationship with someone that I share a Thanksgiving table with. Okay, that is a choice that is going to change my whole world too! So what does it mean for me to get a choice of consent to say I'm not comfortable with this, but then that means that I'm controlling?
Oh no, oh. Oh no, right? And so just the nuance of the smaller the worlds get, the more impact and the nuance of consent. Oh my gosh. Whoa.
[00:49:50] Mx. Flow: I feel like that nuance is really hard to pick through sometimes. It's why I sometimes talk about this idea of like, I call them lines of connection, but the sort of different like, Ourself relating to ourself, ourself relating to other people, other people relating to themselves, and sort of trying to create a generalized framework for like, okay, is this like about me and trying to figure out if a given context is really like about me or is this something I need to like let go of and like practice not controlling around, but I do feel like that.
To sort of bring it back to how this ties into like political praxis is that I think our material situation can sort of put people in these like really like shitty like rock and hard place situations where it's like I want to be able to like advocate for myself and like claim this autonomy but I also need to keep living here because the rent is cheap or something and it can I feel like really complicate people's desires, like hitting the material walls of capitalism.
[00:50:56] Nicole: Oh, another finding in my research. Yes. Privilege, the higher you go on Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, the easier it is to spend time learning about these concepts. When I'm working in community mental health with folks who are literally struggling to find housing and food to survive, They are not thinking about where they're gonna move, because they don't even have the money to do that, so they are stuck in these relationships.
And so, yes, one of the big findings of my research was the way that privilege, the higher you have, the more you can even think about these things, become aware of these things, the impact of these structures. Across the board and it impacts all of us in different ways, depending on our intersecting identities.
Right? But there is a heavy, heavy leaning of relationship anarchy and privilege because it takes so much time to think about these things. How much time it takes to sit down and construct a relationship where you do this smorgasbord together. When you have three kids and you're working constantly and trying to go to school to get your high school diploma, you don't have time to do this shit, okay?
And so this is where it is 100 percent political, absolutely. Yes, and so you have to be able to step back and look at that and say, Wow, okay, I have a fuckton of privilege over here. Speaking about myself, I'm sure in a lot of student debt, but the educational privilege that I have, lots of debt. Um, but, uh, that privilege makes all this why I'm here.
[00:52:33] Mx. Flow: Yes. I feel that. Although I do think a lot of people Like, want relationship anarchism, I guess. It feels like a really common occurrence for me when I explain these ideas to someone to have them be like, Oh yeah, I really like that. But not having had the vocabulary or like space to be exposed to that language.
I remember in Phoenix, Arizona, uh, I was helping some people to like a food distro and we'd bring our like zine table. It always surprised me the amount of people who picked up the relationship anarchism zine, like, regardless of the venue I'm in. And I feel like it's something like a lot of people, especially like in the last few years, is like entering into somewhat of like the queer common consciousness.
And people are sort of taking a bigger interest in it. Mm hmm. The restrictions, like, every time someone in my life has a job, I'm like, your job is going to take you away from me. Ha ha ha ha ha! Yeah!
[00:53:35] Nicole: Yeah, the job, the kids, a new hobby, a new relationship, yeah, there are always big forces like that. And speaking to the ways that people resonate with relationship anarchy, I think if we can remove the label relationship anarchy, Some of the values that we are talking about are the ability to freely design your relationships, to make relationships that are mutually enjoyable, to have relationships where you communicate well, where you're able to care for the people around you.
Yeah, when you think about those values, those are things that the majority of humans Right. I would say pleasurable relationships. You communicate with each other well, and you are caring for the people around you. Those are absolutely values that I would say a majority of humans. Enjoy, right? So I think what you're speaking to is the ways that anarchy, when practiced as a value based system, not the humanness that we all mess up in it, but the values themselves are like more humanistic values of care and collectivity.
[00:54:42] Mx. Flow: And I feel like when you practice things that would or could be very painful and like traditional monogamous relationships become ideally effortless. I was, uh, when I was visiting over with a partner one night, I don't know, one of the evening, she was just like, I want to sleep alone. And I feel like in a lot of monogamous heterosexual relationships, people can like hyper read into this.
They're like, do they hate me? Are they ending the thing? Is this, is this it? And I was like, now she's tired and wants to sleep on the bed alone. Two people on that bed is super uncomfortable. My bed is also more comfortable. We slept together a different night, but it's like I didn't have to take her desires to be about me so much as taking her desires to be about what she wants or needs in that moment.
[00:55:35] Nicole: Right, right, right, right. Don't take things personally. Wow, what a lesson to take again and again, right? The people in our lives, you know, they're coming from their own lens, their own desires, and so it sounds like you were doing the work to not fall into the scripts of what that means in different contexts, right?
And that definitely leads us into our next question, right? Is what are the joys of relationship anarchy? I'm hearing the ways that you're saying this gives you space to not take things so personally, not be so offended by what some mainstream sort of narratives would have said about what that means. I also think that's a part of having more resources of love because when you have more sources of it and say that person says, I don't want you to sleep over for a week.
I need a space. You can say, wow, I've got, well, that's okay. I got all these other people that I can go snuggle with. It's fine. Right? So it makes it a little easier. Um, but I'm curious for you, what are some of the joys that you have experienced of relationship anarchy?
[00:56:33] Mx. Flow: The biggest one is probably trust is that when I feel like I've genuinely been able to be open and vulnerable and communicating with people.
It creates that sense of trust, like with a thing of like, they're not wanting to sleep in the same bed that night I had a sense of trust that. If it was something more than I want to have an easier night's rest, she would have said something and that we're cultivating a type of relationship wherein we both respect one another's decisions enough that it doesn't feel like we're jeopardizing the entire relationship to ask for something that we want and trusting the other person isn't going to be like, or isn't going to misinterpret our ask as being potentially greater than it is.
And I feel like the other big thing for me is sort of like, I'm not sure the right word. Maybe it's novelty. Maybe it's like a sparkly quality or something. Um, but being able to have these like very unique experiences with a variety of different people and not feeling like any of my decision making in the moment has to be.
Taking into account all of the other person's potential thoughts, like in a lot of monogamous relationships, it's like, okay, I'm at the party. Is my wife happy? Does my wife want to leave now? And holding all those things in your head where you're sort of thinking for another whole person. I could do that sometimes, like I go on dates.
But, for example, like at a party I went to last night, I sort of went. Just as me alone and had this wonderful sense of openness with all the people I was meeting I think I get to make a friend here and a friend here, and then we'll talk about this job over here in a way that I feel like would sort of, I think I'd feel boxed in, if I were in a relationship style that.
I want to say has conniptions about engaging with people outside of it or outside of like a very defined network.
[00:58:36] Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah, I'm curious about that dynamic of Always tending to the other partner. I wouldn't say that's inherent to monogamy in and of itself, right? I think that that that dynamic of over caring is maybe not healthy.
Maybe we could argue that's even a codependent dynamic versus even in a monogamous setting, you could absolutely have, you know, this. These two full beans who don't have to care take for each other to that level where you're able to go to the party and say, oh, yeah, my, my partner is over there in the corner and I trust them to have a great time, you know, and so I think that the sexual fidelity piece isn't inherent to that.
And there's a lot of there's a lot of structure that comes to monogamy in terms of. Understanding your world and where you're devoting your energy that I have a lot of deep respect for the more I go into this world, the more I'm like, I can understand this choice that you are making when it's a choice, not something that, you know, like has been forced upon you, but this choice that you are making to devote your energy to this person and therefore have clarity of where that sort of energy goes.
I think when it gets into the toxic space of being something that you've never reflected on. Hmm. Interesting. Uh, which is the majority of people because of our world, right? Let alone, yes, this space where you are no longer yourself and able to move freely in the world and communicate about that. Um, because if you do have desires to interact with other sexual beings, you should absolutely be able to do that.
Right? That should absolutely be something that you want to do. But if you don't, beauty in the dyad, beauty in what you're choosing to do with that. There's a level of narrative and experience and story and life that you can absolutely build there. Um, and if that's not what you want, then like we run in the expansiveness of that.
So I think this, this ability to move through multiple sorts of different dynamics. So joy is something that's possible for both. It's about the ability to be, um, not constantly caretaking and then have the communication skills to be able to name. If maybe you practice monogamy for 25, 30 years, and then you want to change it, are you able to identify that desire and communicate that?
Do you know how scary that is for folks? Hmm. Oh my god. And so, or the opposite, right? There are a lot of folks who do polyamory for years. And then say, okay, you know what? Actually, I want to focus the energy here and only in this container. And then that deeper question of who am I, if I've been practicing polyamory for 15 years to now be monogamous.
Oh my gosh. And the fear that that can bring up. So I think these big changes, no matter which way you go, are are just so complex and so nuanced, but in either situation, I feel like what you're speaking to is this need to be able to communicate your desires, this need to be able to adapt and change and be able to be really authentic with how that changes.
Cause I'll tell you right now, I have no idea where I'm going to be in 20 years. What I do know is it's going to be badass and really powerful, but I have no idea what I'm going to be craving at that time. So I've learned to like, you know, just, just humbly embrace that. I have no idea. And that means my partners and I, we're going to flow with that, right?
And we're going to embrace that as we go with it.
[01:01:56] Mx. Flow: Yeah. The, like, changing a relationship style thing is kind of interesting to me. Because for a lot of times, especially, I think this gets sort of assisted by the semi nomadism, where I'm like, Geographically separated from a lot of people, is that I can have times where I'm like with someone in a way that I think from an outside looking in, just kind of seems like monogamy where I'm like spending most of my time with one person and sure I don't know there might be like group sex or something, but like I'm still spending most of my emotional time with one person.
And I do that pretty frequently. Part of my core values is like having a sense of communion, like strong one on one connections with people. And even times where I'm like living in a polycule, like in a house together, I still try to go out of my way to have one on one time with different people I'm seeing.
I feel like that the communication around that sort of makes some of the, in my mind, like the dangers of monogamy. Potentially easier to avoid or less dangerous, um, it sort of reminds me of a couple I knew who said they're like, we're monogamous but in like, where I can still find other people hot way.
And I thought that was really interesting to sort of be like, yes, we are doing monogamy, but we're trying to do with this understanding of like, more clarified intention, and sort of not it. Like pretending, I guess? I don't, I don't, I don't know. I can't speak for monogamous people. I'm, I'm not them, but I imagine when you're in a monogamous relationship, other people do not become ugly suddenly.
[01:03:34] Nicole: No. Oh, totally. I mean, I think that's, not think, that's scientifically proven. Uh, we put people into studies who practice monogamy and, uh, will research their like blood flow and genital arousal from watching different types of porn. Okay. Uh, Your body is reacting to other people, no matter if you are attached and married and all that sort of stuff.
Absolutely! Like, we are attracted, we see art and beauty and lovely things in the world, so yes, like, you know, what's the saying? That love is infinite? Right. So this ability to look out in the world and see that, wow, that person's really attracted. I, I really care for that person. Time and energy.
Absolutely not limited, you know, absolutely not unlimited. And so in that, you know, that choice, I gosh, I hope that all monogamous folks are able to look out the world and say that's super attractive. Now, what I want to do with my limited time and energy. Absolutely up to me and that person I'm with or what I'm doing.
I specifically remember when I was practicing monogamy and it was not a choice because it was the only thing I ever knew, uh, going to a movie with my then boyfriend at the time. And it was like some sort of Marvel movie or whatever. And I was like, Oh, like, isn't the superhero so hot? And he got offended and we got in a fight about it.
And I was like, this is a fictional character. On a tv screen, like, like, what do you mean? But no, we had a full fight where he was like, what do you What do you think that makes me feel? How do you think that makes me feel? I get insecure He probably didn't even say all of that. That's probably me giving him more benefit than doubt Um, but like it was a full argument now that kind of stuff I find very complex because it's like you I'm, not choosing to date this person I am not choosing to spend my limited time and energy and change our world.
It is an acknowledgement of Beauty. And the immense beauty that is around us. Okay, that feels inherent, you know?
[01:05:33] Mx. Flow: Have you ever read the book The Dispossessed?
[01:05:36] Nicole: Um, is it by
[01:05:38] Mx. Flow: Ursula K. Le Guin?
[01:05:39] Nicole: I have it. I was given it by another relationship anarchist. You know what? My brain is
[01:05:44] Mx. Flow: good taste.
[01:05:45] Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. My brain is beautiful.
And man, fiction. Ooh, I don't know. You know, so I got a degree in English literature. So I read tons of fiction. Um, so then I went to go get my doctorate in clinical psychology and all I read was nonfiction, nonfiction, nonfiction, nonfiction, nonfiction. So I have not been able to go back to fiction because I have some sort of, like, kinky drive for just learning at this point, I will say, like, deeply.
Like, geez.
[01:06:13] Mx. Flow: I've been there. Like, I, it's the only fiction book I've actually read in the last decade. And it's the only fiction book I've read twice.
[01:06:23] Nicole: Okay.
[01:06:23] Mx. Flow: Um, I think cause it like speaks. deeply to, I don't know, a lot of important ideas in anarchism. One of the things it's sort of is like an anarchist planet.
It's sort of part of the setup. And the way she talks about monogamy in there is whereas polyamory is sort of the default for the society. And I thought this was really interesting that Ursula decided to have a moment where monogamy is sort of Emphasized as a choice that was made special by it being a conscious decision with another person and I feel like that concept of monogamy felt a lot nicer to me of it being like this very intentioned and like poised decision you're making.
[01:07:07] Nicole: Yeah,
[01:07:08] Mx. Flow: yes.
[01:07:09] Nicole: Absolutely, compared to an expectation that you've never thought about, right? Which is definitely how I was raised. There wasn't any option. I think if we come back to our understanding of consent, right? What does it mean to have informed consent? Informed consent is that there are multiple options that work that are research proven to create high levels of relationship satisfaction.
So, Yeah, that means that everyone should be just as informed that, hey, monogamy, great, polyamory, great, swinging, great, all the different labels we want to throw, so what do you want? Right, that is not the world that we live in, so I really appreciate that sort of frame, right, of The beauty of it being a choice almost as this inversion of what is so common in our current culture, where it is not a choice because it's never something that people talk about or reflect on.
And so then therefore that alternative universe where it is a choice and the beauty of that choice. Oh yeah, that's consent.
[01:08:09] Mx. Flow: And I think the unawareness of that there are other options to causes an amount of grief. I don't know about you, but I've definitely like been the person who is like. A couple's first third, not in terms of like a threesome, but in terms of like them deciding to change the structure of their relationship.
And I happen to be like the first person, one of them engages with. And I don't, I've not done a study on this, but it's really common that I feel like when I see people who start monogamous, who then try to transition to something else later, there's like a high failure rate. And I feel like a lot of that is like.
That there isn't really a discussion at the start of most relationships for like, how do you want this structured? Like, how do you want this to look? Like, what do you want out of this? I try to make people read my relationship essay as like a, please, if you want to be close to me, like, understand, like, the way in which I am approaching this is like, probably different than a lot of people.
And that sort of having a strong mutual understanding of at least like the way I'm approaching it. Can inform other people's emotional relationships to my behavior and like how they plan their life around them.
[01:09:21] Nicole: Sure, sure, sure, sure. We're almost the opposite in that way, where I'm, when I meet someone, I'm like, uh, the podcast is amazing, but get to know me.
Like, don't, don't, you'll make so many assumptions about who I am and how I show up, which is maybe fair, uh, but just talk to me instead. Let me show you, like, how, but I, I hear what you're saying in terms of the, Pain. Oh my. Oh. My. Gosh. The pain that you can go through when people have not unpacked this, the ways that you can just be an object, like purely, like, they're like, no, we care about you, this is great, great, great.
The second something goes wrong, goodbye! Okay, whoa, right? So the different ways that you can be an object and not even cared for as a full human being, or the ways that you can Oh, gosh, the stories I've heard from relationship anarchists who have absolutely poured their hearts out, falling deeply in love with a human being, and practicing relationship anarchy, having multiple relationships, and that person that they absolutely fell in love with then meets someone else and says, Okay, I'm gonna go practice monogamy now, goodbye, that was a fun experiment.
It's like, holy shit, I thought we were building something that was gonna last years! And you were just Exploring, it's kind of like the same ways that often the queer community talks about people who are curious, like, oh, they're bi curious and there's this very common trope of, hey, be careful because they might objectify you in ways and then just disappear and say that was a cute experiment, right?
So I think there is some level of understanding that yeah, when you are connecting with people who are new to this and have not impacted it. There is a certain level of awareness you need to have to where their consciousness might be about that. And certain steps of protection that you really have to take.
I don't think it's a, like, no, we don't talk to anybody who's new. Cause that's, you know, gatekeeping. What is that? But also some level of awareness that, yeah, when that bicarious person comes up to you, reasonable expectations about what they might psychologically be moving throughout this time of their own exploration.
[01:11:28] Mx. Flow: Yeah, but it's really validating to hear, uh, other people have had the, it's like a monogamous moment. I don't really experience what I think society talks about when they talk about, like, the emotional reaction of people, like, cheating. It's kind of, on a certain level, like, emotionally unintelligible to me, like, I don't really understand it.
But it feels, the closest thing, in my mind, is when I, like, get very involved with someone, and then I think the way I like first phrased it in a poem was like stealth break up with me by entering into a monogamous relationship and it feels like sort of part of the thing I talked about earlier and some of the struggles of people assuming there is no emotional importance.
And like, I feel like that's probably been some of the biggest emotional pain I've been through in the last few years is getting like emphatically and deeply involved with people and then partially because the semi nomad is I'm like, I'm away. I'm not phoning you up every week to be like, who did you talk to?
How's it going? Um, people can be like, Hey, yeah, actually, I've been in a committed monogamous relationship for six months. And I'm like, cool, I guess that thing was really meaningful to you, or really meaningful to me, but so meaningless to you. It was just like, not. It's worth going through like a breakup procedure and that feels like deeply disrespectful and it's, it's, it's one of the things I try to like push against when I talk about the like emotional resonance and like the way emotions come out in things that are planned to be temporary or in which I am not planning to like buy a farm with the person are still emotionally significant and I want that to be respected.
Like I remember I, I had a relationship with someone where just at a point where I just, I just wasn't feeling the vibe for a bunch of small reasons, but I wanted to like maintain a connection, some kind of relationship with a person. I just wanted to like turn the volume down, so to speak, and we were able to like negotiate that really beautifully.
And it got to a point where I'm like, I'm happy with this relationship we have. I got a lot of things out of it. It was very pleasant. I want to maintain contact with you, even if I don't want it to be. What we were doing before and trying to get other people to do that. I feel like it shouldn't be an ask, but I feel like it comes out to being an ask because of the way in which we're conditioned to view polyamory and nontraditional relationship styles in general.
[01:14:09] Nicole: Yeah, other than like hyper capitalism and oh, if the object gets a, uh, you know, a rip in it, I'm gonna throw it out and put it in the garbage for the landfill because lord knows I don't have any skills of how to sew. I mean, I do, but I, you know, so I do mend my clothes, but I think this example, right, of hyper consumerism as, you know, because we don't have the skills anymore to literally how to fix.
Um, and I think that that also being a part of this discussion, right, is do we all have this skills? First off, let's talk about that and capitalism and the ways that when you are working a job for 40 plus more hours and you're not getting to learn about how to be in relationships, that impacts you. Let me tell you.
Right, political conversation. So even these skills that you're looking for, the ways that people are going to show up for you to have that breakup conversation is inherently a political discussion about capitalism and resources. We're now back to the Maslow's hierarchy of needs to learn and spend all this time reading books like Ursula Quinn, right?
Or books like nonviolent communication, la la la, right? So, so these desires inherently political. And what I'm hearing from you is this desire for intentionality. The way that, yes, we are in a real relationship, whether it's that one night stand that you were talking about and having that loving experience with them, or someone that you've gone on a couple of dates with, years, months.
Can we have the intentionality to understand that this is another full human being that is in front of you? Someone who has a universe of meaning making up in their head and so many relational experiences. It's a whole human. Being and can you come with that level of intentionality. I think often society doesn't even let us right if we have that level of intentionality.
Do you know how much more we'd be crying every day about what we see on the news. No, you can't because you gotta go to work and so you can't think about that one too hard. Right. So all of us. I think the macro and the micro is all right here. And I think this is where that deep understanding of anarchy is political and everything that we're doing on the macro.
Scale of how you end that relationship is a part of the, or. Everything you do on the micro scale of how you end that relationship is also a part of the macro. And so I'm seeing so much of that and. I'm curious to, you know, this last final question is what do you wish other people knew about anarchy and the ways that we practice?
You know, we talked about so many of the misconceptions and the things that people get wrong. I'm curious. What do you wish they knew?
[01:16:42] Mx. Flow: I feel like the biggest thing is that most people I meet believe in some kind of anarchy already, but they don't have. the same vocabulary and framework and it can kind of be almost like an isolated, I want to say like idea peninsula where they have like the body of our like beliefs and ideologies influenced in various ways and a lot of people just have like a jutting out of like wanting autonomy and a general kind of freedom and I feel like the biggest joy for me would people would be people Just having a more accurate understanding of anarchism as this emphasis on freedom and autonomy and achieving that through looking after one another.
And because I feel like that's most of the biggest misconception I run into and like running zine tables and doing propaganda and stuff is just. Anarchy is either no rules or fuck it, I don't care, and it frustrates me, I think, as an anarchist because, you know, when I'm explaining myself to someone, I want to be understood and, like, be able to be processed by that person as close to authenticity as we can with words.
[01:17:56] Nicole: Right. Yeah. Absolutely. I wish more people knew that as well. Right. And so then I think I was just, you know, feeling as you were speaking, just this big hope for all of us that we're able to show that love to show that care to show those values, because at the end of the day, there are so many different understandings of the word anarchy.
And each human being has been conditioned and had experiences around that word and what that word means. And so, yeah, when we say, oh, I'm a relationship anarchist, it brings up a slew of things that are often far from what we mean. And so that deeper question of can we show these values? Can we show this dream that we're envisioning through our actions, right?
Can we show up and maybe don't even have to use the word relationship anarchy and show it that way that I feel it because you're right. We might lose each other often in this word and this practice and trying to get people to understand that word. And I'd much rather have a, a world of love and care and community care.
And I don't care what. language you use to describe that. If that's the world we're living in, I'll be a happy woman, you know?
[01:19:14] Mx. Flow: I feel that in, like, communication. I feel like it comes up a lot when I do these, like, distro tables where I'm not a non profit, I'm not part of an org, but it, like, everything is free and sometimes people are like, how?
[01:19:28] Nicole: Why?
[01:19:29] Mx. Flow: It's free? But why? And I'm like, well, if we want to actually live in a society where we're able to just give to one another without having to be like, how is this going to affect my budget? Like, uh, how much money can I like afford this thing on this table? Just be like, no, you want it, take it, please.
It's sort of living the society of tomorrow, today, in the way of relating to it materially. And I feel like, People come to anarchism from like two big emotions. It's either sort of a compassionate love response, like I want to care for myself and the people around me. Or it's like, um, what's the word?
Like a resentment pain response, where it's like I've been hurt, I've been injured by the state or other forces and I want to fuck that shit up now.
[01:20:19] Nicole: Sure.
[01:20:20] Mx. Flow: I think they're both understandable and can at times Synergize, but I feel like relationship anarchism comes a lot more from that place of like compassionate love and trying to relate with each other through that lens.
[01:20:35] Nicole: Yeah, and it's most ideal, right? And I think you're speaking to the light and the dark, right? The shadow and the love, right? And so the ways that we all hold that in different ways and. All of us have been hurt by the system, depending on your intersectional identities, more than others. Right. And so that level of pain towards those systems makes sense.
Like, absolutely, it's, it's,
[01:20:59] Mx. Flow: it's very graspable for me, especially as a Buddhist, like doing these compassion practices involves sort of. Cultivating a personal autonomy from that pain is being like, you've hurt me, but like, I'm not going to live my life based on like what you've done to me. I'm going to live my life based on what is like bringing me joy and making me feel fulfilled and consistent with my own values.
[01:21:23] Nicole: Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. So there's truly so much that the world really needs to relearn with the word anarchy and what anarchy means and this deeper understanding of the ways that it's this collective love that we can have for each other and how We need liberation from the systems that have so broken us apart and puts us at each other's throats quite intentionally, to be clear, right?
And so the ways that we can come back to that deeper love, that care, that mutual aid and that collective liberation, I think will be a really, really powerful experience. And I'm grateful to have had you on the show to be able to talk about that, to give more language to the experience of what it means to practice relationship anarchy.
Before we move towards our closing question, I'm going to take a deep breath with you.
And then I'm going to ask if there's anything else that you would like to share with the listeners. Otherwise, I can move us towards our closing question.
[01:22:25] Mx. Flow: This is a bit back, but I did want to jump back to it at some point. Um, working, I used to be a residential counselor in a therapeutic boarding school, and I've done Community support groups for a lot longer than that.
And this is sort of a, the relationship anarchism beyond the bedroom, like RA as this more holistic way of engaging and relating with other people. And the biggest sort of gripe I had when I was in corporate mental health care was that. The hierarchy was like rigid and enforced and I would get written up if I did not enforce that hierarchy where it's like, I'm staffed.
I'm right. You're the kid. You're wrong. Do what I say. And I think it deeply frustrated me because I think that kind of like hierarchical relationship of care is like damaging for the patient. And I feel like there is so much more. we can do for ourselves and other people who are hurting through engaging with, especially mental health care, as like a collaborative teamwork effort.
The more caregivers are able to approach patients as like, we're like a team working together to like, tackle this other issue. I feel like the more successful like therapy can be. One of the biggest things stuck in my head was, I had one kid who was like, Ugh, the cigarette cravings are driving me insane.
Blow, I'm losing it. And I knew if I had just said something as simple as like, Yeah, I used to smoke. Nicotine sucks. I'd get like, at least a talking to, and that like frustrated me deeply because I feel like there is so much like, care and connection we can have. With caregivers who are able to sort of bring their own experience into the relationship and engage with it more as like, uh, I am not the clinician telling you how to fix your life.
I am like, on a real level, your friend trying to help you be happier using whatever skills or knowledge background I have. And I think that does a lot to, like, motivate, like, patients to, like, I've been a mental health patient, and the biggest thing I did was a dialectical behavioral therapy program for a really long time.
And the thing I really liked about it was that I felt like the relationship, as much as it can be under current capitalist hellscape, was a lot more, like, egalitarian. Like, I could sit at a lunch table with my psychiatrist and be like, democracy now. Incredibly depressing show, right? So important. Um, and I feel like if we can take relationship anarchism into the world of caregiving, I feel like it would Draw a lot of people closer and in a way make the burden of caregiving.
I hope less painful to carry because working in mental health, working in any health care kind of really sucks.
[01:25:19] Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yes, the systems, uh, as someone in it, working both within it and against it. Yes.
[01:25:29] Mx. Flow: My condolences.
[01:25:30] Nicole: Thank you. I see it every day. I see it every day. It is wild. Um. Yeah, Dr. Geoff Bathje I have talked a lot about what it would mean to write, um, a minimum an article or a book on applying anarchy to clinical psychology. Yep.
[01:25:49] Mx. Flow: That'd be a good read. Yep.
[01:25:50] Nicole: Well, and you know what I like to think is that I do it every single Wednesday when I make an episode, you know, because here I am with another human being and we both experience different things.
And so what does it mean to share my experience with you to learn from you? Because I'm another human being who is learning from your wisdom and not have power over dynamics in that. Oof, yeah, absolutely. So I will, at minimum, make a promise that I will be in this space talking about that. I'm confident that these are the questions that I am devoted to exploring in my lifetime.
And so as long as I will be breathing, I will be in this space questioning these things and talking about this very concept because I could make so many more podcasts about literally this. And I do, you know, of what it means to be in a therapeutic healing relationship with all the things that we have talked about.
It is Yes. Just say yes. Well, it's been such a joy to have you. If it feels good, then I will transition us to our closing question. Alright. So the last question that I ask everybody on the show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?
[01:27:13] Mx. Flow: It's hard when it's one thing, actually.
[01:27:15] Nicole: I know.
[01:27:16] Mx. Flow: Well, there's a lot of things I can think of immediately, but like, if I'm just picking one, I think maybe it's that other people are probably going into it with a lot of the same thoughts that you're having, and that like, Especially I like anxious thoughts are not actually indicative of strangeness, but they're pretty normal.
Like it's really normal to go to a party and look around and see people talking like, Oh, they must all know each other. It must be like a 20 year long friendship and I just happened to walk into their party of 100 people of best friends. But then you like talk to someone like, Do you know each other?
Like, Nah, I met 30 seconds ago.
[01:27:56] Nicole: Sure.
[01:27:57] Mx. Flow: And I feel like there can be that tendency to Like specialize ourselves and be like, Oh, I'm special. I'm the one with the special anxious thoughts and recognizing that, like, Other people are probably just as like curious or tired or anxious as you and if you can come into that like holding it in your head, I think it makes everything you do a little softer, almost, where it's like, Oh, this, this person talking to me on the street, like, I don't know, they have a need for something they're like in dire straits, or this person who's like really quiet at the party, like, just like me, they're probably a little anxious, like, and I think we can Overcome our own anxiety and help other peoples by sort of being able to address that on some level.
Of being like, oh, I see that person doing the anxious thing I do, maybe if I like, say hello and ask if they like Yu Gi Oh cards or something, we can overcome that thing that feels so unique and special, our special awkwardness, and be like, okay, no, we're all a little shaky. Or at least all the trans people at the party are a little bit.
[01:29:11] Nicole: Yeah, sure. Yeah, I think that that's where I really appreciate my positionality as a psychotherapist, where I get to hear so many people share that experience of, oh my gosh, I was at the party, I didn't know what to do, and everyone was talking, and I felt like I didn't belong. And then I think it Be so funny, just because life is hard and humanness.
I would, you know, be with a client talking to them about that. And then I would go into a party later that night and be like, damn, I just talked to this other person about this experience, but now it's about me. And theory and experience is very different, you know, and so having to actually live into that right and, and telling yourself a new narrative, right, rather than that narrative, I don't belong, I don't belong, I don't belong.
No, I belong here. And I don't care how many times I've had to repeat that to myself until I felt it. I repeat it. Okay, that's a mindfulness practice. There it is right there. Okay. I'm going to tell myself the new narrative that I want to exist in. And speaking to, you know, deconstructing the field of clinical psychology, la la la, you know, even understanding that Okay.
Those experiences are not so much a reflection of a personality, but more so a reflection of the relational soup that you've been in for your entire life, right? And you know, the easiest thing is when I have a client who comes and says they have such negative self talk and I ask, where did you first hear that voice?
Often it's my parents, my first partner. My siblings, right? A boss, someone, and so then we start to understand that all of us again are in connection and in community, right? And so when I see that person who's maybe more shy and awkward, understanding that that's a result of like these larger relational fields that they've been in, and yeah, that we're all human beings.
I could easily be that person that's right there, right? And so understanding our shared humanness of we all want connection. We all want to feel loved. We all want to feel appreciated. And so. Yeah, let's talk about Yu Gi Oh! Yu Gi Oh! cards like you mentioned, right? Or Fimory. It's like, oh, how did that climb go over there, right?
Connecting with people and so, you know, just investing and seeing them and having them feel appreciated. That's something that we all want and we all. Need. And so, yeah, that humanness, you know, those moments of insecurity, those moments of doubt, you know, yeah, the more that we can understand that we're not alone in that, I think the easier it is to reach out across that void to a stranger and provide that love.
[01:31:33] Mx. Flow: Oh, yeah, that's that's I feel like maybe the biggest thing that being an anarchist has brought to me is that like people on a fundamental level want to work together and like have a crew of some sense. And that. If you approach people with an openness to that, it dissolves a lot of tension and a lot of sort of opposition that I feel like our structures try to maintain.
[01:31:59] Nicole: Yeah. Well, it's been such a joy to have you on the podcast today. How fun to get to talk about relationship anarchy and go back and forth with you about all of this. I'm really very appreciative of you coming on this show and trusting me to co create this today.
[01:32:15] Mx. Flow: Yeah, it was a wonderful conversation.
[01:32:17] Nicole: Yeah. For all of the people who have connected with you, where can they find your zine and your writing and, yeah, how can they get in contact with you?
[01:32:27] Mx. Flow: I have a website, dhammaflow org, it's D H A M M A, the flow has a W. I'm on Instagram as mx. flow1312. I do a lot of music, album stuff, all my writings are posted to the blog, uh, my YouTube channel of the MX Flow has like a whole thing where I do a lot of like, reading theory out loud, partially as vocal practice for a bit.
I did have one person once come tell me it was the only place they could find decolonization is not a metaphor, an audio form.
[01:33:05] Nicole: Hmm. Great. Awesome. Well, I'll have all of that. I will have all of that linked below, and so I'm so, so grateful to have had you on the show. So thank you again today. If you enjoyed today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast.
And head on over to ModernAnarchyPodcast. com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I want to thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.
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