213. Relationship Anarchist: Silver
- Nicole Thompson
- May 16
- 57 min read
Nicole: [00:00:00] Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host Nicole.
In today's episode, we have silver join us for another relationship anarchy research conversation. Together we talk about the infinite gray space of connection, getting curious about jealousy and expanding our circles of care. Hello, dear listener and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday.
My name is Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic [00:01:00] integration therapy, and I am also the founder of the Pleasure Practice supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships. Dear. Listener. Oh, you guys know that. I love every single relationship anarchy conversation.
It is such a joy to continue my dissertation research and to be able to hold this space where we really unpack how to better love one another. How do we build stronger communities? How do we dismantle the intimacy escalator we talked about last time, right? All these internalized systems that are so deep and present within our collective unconscious, truly.
And so. Together. These conversations are really shaping the movement, right? We are creating new language. We are creating new conversations around what it means to be a [00:02:00] relationship anarchist. And I'm just so delighted every time that a listener like you trust me, to come onto the show and to answer the questions in the link below.
Because relationship anarchy is certainly not defined by the experts, right? It is defined by community, and all of us have an important insight and perspective on the practice. And so it's such an honor to be able to create these resources and these conversations with you. Dear listener, so if you're looking to, uh, join the conversation, the link is below.
I would love to hear your insights on the practice and also I had a handful of people reach out asking for my book, the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide, to be turned into A PDF and a free downloadable book. And so I finally got around to making that happen. So also that is now available on the website as well for all of you who [00:03:00] prefer to read my book rather than on the website and a PDF version.
So I wanted to let you know since I had a handful of folks reach out. Alright. All right, dear Listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and resources@modernanarchypodcast.com. Linked in the show notes below. And I wanna say a big thank you to all of my Patreon supporters.
You are supporting the long-term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content free and accessible to all people. So thank you. If you wanna join the Patreon community, get exclusive access into my research and personal exploration, then you can head on over to patreon.com/modern Anarchy podcast, also linked in the show notes below.
And with that, dear listener, please know that I'm sending you [00:04:00] all my love, and let's tune in to today's episode. So the first question I like to ask each guest is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?
Silver: I'm a human trying to be loving and caring in this world, trying to navigate. Being true to myself, taking care of myself and showing up for those around me.
Nicole: Mm-hmm. Beautiful. Well, it's a joy to have you here, and I'm really excited to talk about relationship anarchy. Mm-hmm. Me too. Yeah. So the first big question, what is relationship anarchy?
Silver: Yeah. So relationship anarchy, to me, it's really the freedom and the power to custom build your own relationships and think about what you want your relationships to be.
So, as I mentioned, it requires a lot of freedom, but also that can mean a lot of honesty with yourself, with the people around you. Um, a lot of communication about actually getting in touch with what [00:05:00] you really want.
Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Silver: And being able to ask that of the people around you, um, and really letting go of expectations instead of looking for, here's the models of what relationships should be trying to figure out like, here's what is and what works with people in your life.
Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I hear this very dynamic quality to it, right? Is what's working for us now. Not what worked in the past, not some sort of escalator that we're trying to walk, but what is working for us right now and how can we communicate that? And I am deeply humbled from my personal journey of navigating that, of like, what is it that I want in this connection?
When you take off all the scripts, when you take off all of that and there's just infinite possibility, it is humbling to try and find the language to describe how you wanna connect.
Silver: Oh, extremely. It's, it's both really terrifying and it's so exciting. Um. Getting that honesty, [00:06:00] okay, what do I really want?
Um, but like, even just asking yourself that question, getting in touch with that takes time. Mm-hmm. And also knowing that that can change over time, that the way your relationships look today might be completely different than a year, even less time than that.
Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so I find myself trying to ride that, that nuance between knowing everything can move and feeling security in that at the same time, right?
Because there is that, that fear when I'm attaching to someone of, well, at any point, this could absolutely change, which is possible in all relationship structures, right? Mm-hmm. We know the divorce rates of monogamy, we know the, you know, the complexities of relationships just generally, and that things can inevitably change.
But there's something very inherent to relationship anarchy because I think that it's kind of built on this concept of fluidity and making sure that the relationships are mutually. Bringing joy and pleasure and not just out of a [00:07:00] sense of obligation. And so that means dynamic change. And so finding security in dynamic change.
Oof. Wow.
Silver: Yeah. I think that people often do like commitments or they think that commitments to certain structures will create the security and yeah, there's no, like things can always change. God has changed.
Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When I think about past relationships, it felt like before I even had this awareness, like it's like, oh, okay, I'm gonna do the relationship escalator.
I wouldn't have said that word, but Right. I would've been like, okay, we're gonna get married and then we're gonna have kids and we're gonna live together and we're gonna do this. Right. Right, right. And so as I make new attachments, it's interesting to, to watch if the mind goes to that space and to really get critical on like, is this something I actually want?
Is this socially conditioned? And to kind of take off those expectations and just be curious about where they're coming from.
Silver: It can be really complicated and confusing. Like it's hard to not have as much language [00:08:00] around what your commitments or connections can look like.
Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Silver: So there's sometimes more figuring it out or even realizing like, oh, I do need to, or want to have a conversation with a certain person about how are we feeling about this connection?
Like, are there certain commitments or expectations that we want to discuss, at least for now. But it, it can also be really freeing. Like, I, so I moved, um, I was in Chicago for about a decade, um, and I moved two years ago. And just through the, like, obviously all of my relationships changed when I
Nicole: Right.
Silver: Physically switched locations. And I don't think it was only relationship anarchy, but I think it enabled me to really get, to honor and have a lot of gratitude for the connections that did stay in my life. And just they felt that much more special. Like seeing how that love can really withstand the test of time.
Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Silver: And like withstand such drastic transformation too.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. How do you see that connected to relationship anarchy? I'm already starting to think of things. Yeah. But could you flesh that out more for me and the listeners?
Silver: It's like, great. Um, like, I think [00:09:00] relationship anarchy, it just gives me a framework to really be intentional about connections and be open to love.
Like, I, I love the relationship Anarchy Manifesto. It's very simple. Um, but really the, the first line in it is love is abundant and every relationship is unique. And just reminding myself of all the love from all the various connections that I'm surrounded by, like when I moved something I really struggled with is not having as many in-person connections like where I am and feeling lonely about that.
And just reminding me of the deep love that I had from other friends. And really also I think a part of, I love and hate the word friend. Like friend can mean so many different things, right? And there's not, yeah. Like language is something that I wish we had more nuance around. Um, but. I think a part of relationship anarchy for me is really elevating that role of friends.
Like I want all kinds of, like, I don't want just a romantic partner or partners to be at the center of my life. Like I want lifelong friends that I make [00:10:00] lifelong commitments around or really make life decisions for. And I think getting to really elevate that helped me feel more connected and grounded.
There's such a big transition.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. 'cause you see the love that's all around you instead of looking for this one person to fulfill everything, which is not possible for any dynamic that anyone ever does. But we, we grow up in that paradigm, right? There's gonna be the one that's gonna unlock everything for your spiritual and emotional development needs.
Um, uh, rather to seeing, wow, I am surrounded by so many different beautiful relationships that all have different levels of connection and intimacy and things that we, we do together to feel that full presence. It's, I I find that to be one of the biggest paradigm shifts of relationship anarchy instead of one, or even in polyamory 2, 3, 4, wherever you draw your line on your capacity limits to see all of your relationships as a part of your, your web, your connection that are important and [00:11:00] should be looked at with intentionality.
Silver: Yeah. And I, I kind of came into this through the polyamory line, like right up. Sure. Same. Ethical slow is a great, that's not polyamorous necessarily, but like multi amory. I love that podcast. Right. That really helps think about relationships. Then the longer I was in it, I realized I wasn't necessarily just looking for more types of romantic connections, although it's lovely when that happens, but really just getting to be as open to the love that exists in any form in my life and getting to celebrate that to its full extent.
Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Silver: Instead of, I think some people try to say like, yeah, they put the romantic relationship on a pedestal and then friends go here. Like friends are more like when I have time or this casual thing and I don't know. You kinda really deep, beautiful commitments with friends.
Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think the world will be a better space when we share that focus. Mm-hmm. Right. Instead of just one person that we show up for intentionally [00:12:00] to share that focus of intentionality with your whole community. Oof. Different paradigm.
Silver: Totally. And something else that we haven't. Touched on yet that I think is a really important like tenet of relationship anarchy.
Like it has the word anarchy. It is an inherently a political practice. Yes. And I really view it as a way to expand your circles of care. I mean, the couple, the couple in itself is not innately coercive, but the idea that the couple has to be your end all be all, or like the most important relationship and is the way that you pass down resources.
It's the one person that you're gonna rely on and whatever happens to them, it's your sole responsibility to care for it. All of that can be extremely coercive. And yeah, just reminding ourselves that we have more support, that we can be accountable to more people and should really be a force to try to support.
Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Silver: At a larger scale.
Nicole: Yeah.
Silver: It's a tool to really expand your circle of care and to give yourself both the support, because it's a lot of [00:13:00] work to try to hold yourself accountable to. Show up and care for a larger community. But that can also be really beautiful. And, and especially during times like this, it's so important to really think about how we can support one another and all the power that we do have as individuals and as these small scale communities or larger scale communities too.
Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. You cannot, it takes a village, right? That's the saying. You know, it takes a village. Mm-hmm. And so many people are so dependent on the couple form, um, to such a degree that it produces intense stress and pain on that relationship. And that's something, you know. Again, that can happen in polyamory.
That can happen in monogamy. That's, it's not, you know, one or the other there. 'cause you can have two partners and put everything into that and neglect the rest and Right. Um, so that's where I think the ideas of relationship anarchy, whether you're practicing polyamory or monogamy or any other form, uh, this concept of [00:14:00] community that we all need community and we all thrive in community and, and taking intentionality to that, that's also where a lot of, like church played a long role for so long in our human existence.
'cause it brought people together in that sort of collective way to see that, hey, you know, it's not just me. I am actually part of a collective That's a little bit of the, um. We have like, uh, Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, right in our Western thinking, which says that at the, uh, top of this triangle means the highest point of your development is that you have reached peak individualization.
Like, look at you all by yourself. Like that's the fully actualized human. Um, and I was going through my like decolonizing, psychedelic assisted psychotherapy training and they had this, I believe it's a First Nations, um, sort of pyramid. And at the top of that pyramid is community, not. Self-actualization.
Right. And so I'm really curious about relationship anarchy and reworking these western concepts [00:15:00] of hyper individualization and even the couple form as like the top of that pyramid compared to, wow, we're in a collective. What does it mean to be a part of a collective and see the community as actually the highest form of self-actualization?
Silver: So much of it, I mean, especially since the election, I've seen so many, like a lot of people are thinking about, oh, how can I take care of myself? Like I need more therapy? Or like, what are the ways that I can really create that self-care for myself? And it can be really powerful to then get with other people and realize here are ways that we can show up and care for ourselves so we can remind ourselves or build our collective power.
And yes, that takes a lot of energy. I'm not saying like there's a, there is a privilege to like have the time or the space for that. And we definitely like need rest as well and solely going the individualistic, individualistic route.
Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Silver: Doesn't fulfill you in the same way, it doesn't build the same kind of power, it doesn't build the same kind of support structures, and there's only so many things you can do alone.
Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Silver: And the beauty too, when you [00:16:00] have more people is it lets you be more honest with yourself of like what you actually like, what your capacity is, or like the best ways that you can show up. And like it brings out the best parts of yourself too, instead of you trying to do everything.
Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. It can be so helpful to go out and see yourself as a part of something bigger than you, right? Mm-hmm. And I think about the ways that we, our concept of self is formed by our relationships. Just flat out right, our concept of sell, you know, uh, that's why, you know, I always talk to my clients when they go home for different holidays or different events and they say like, wow, like I felt like these parts of myself that I haven't felt since childhood just completely came up and I was enraged and I was doing this.
And it's like, yeah, like your concept of self is created by your, your ecosystem of who you're in relationship with. And so when you start to have more deep, intimate, intentional connections, you as a human [00:17:00] being will also change. If you've been in this hyper individualistic, um, very couple structured sense of life, as you start to come into relationship anarchy, your concept of self is also going to change As you invest.
I, I need words that are not. Capitalism as you, as was a, as you spend time, there's another, there's a war.
Silver: There's a ton of war metaphors on fewer war metaphors.
Nicole: No, I don't do that. I don't do that. I saw a tantra retreat that titled like one of the events. It was like warrior wifey. And I was like, oof. That is not the space for me.
Um, woo. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. So as you spend more time with other people, you know, your concept of self is also gonna change, which I think is really beautiful.
Silver: Yeah. Like one of the joys of it is the. Like amount of self-discovery you get and mm-hmm. Just the energy. Like I'm someone who thrives off of new experiences and I love getting to see how I show up differently when I meet new people or get to form new connections.
Like getting to be really in touch with different parts of myself. Mm-hmm. [00:18:00]
Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. That's a perfect segue into our next question, which is how do you practice relationship anarchy? What does this look like for you?
Silver: I love the word practice, like I to, yeah, let's promote that. It is very much a practice.
Like I used to call myself an aspiring relationship anarchist because it felt like I had to be this like perfect, like didn't use labels for any of my relationships or anything like that. And honestly, right now, from the outside, I look like my life is very like heteronormative, monogamous passing. I, I have a male nesting partner right now and it's very easy for people to make certain assumptions, like particularly at work or with my family.
Um, but. That doesn't mean like, as we've already talked about, like I really focus on elevating all kinds of connections, um, being intentional, um, and really like focusing, like my first and foremost commitment I view is to myself, which is a weird it that almost feels [00:19:00] juxtaposed, but we are just talking about with community care.
But really the best ways that I can show up in community or find ways to like hold myself accountable to see what I can give to other people is to first be honest with myself about what I want, what I have capacity for, like what I, yeah. And what I really need.
Nicole: Right?
Silver: Yeah. So it, the way that the, that relationship anarchy shows up, it's that intentionality, like with myself, that openness to new connections.
I am really open to whatever connection, like seeing what space that looks like. I have a lot of this is for like the friend word, like I've had a lot of beautiful connections where a friend doesn't quite cut it and we might not look like quote unquote romantic partners to the outside. But there's definitely a lot of that energy in the relationship, but also a boundary setting.
Like it can be opening up and inviting people in. And then I think boundary setting and saying no to certain expectations that people might have, um, is just as much a part of that. Like I grew up [00:20:00] in a religious community and there's definitely a lot of expectations and norms there. Um, but even like with my partner, like I live with someone who's extremely introverted and there are certain times where it's great to have him like come to other large events, but there's plenty where I don't wanna be babysitting him.
He's not going to have a good time.
Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Silver: And I think some people really have an expectation of doing. Everything or most things with a certain partner, and I love the freedom of not doing that. Like I have other people that I kind of view as my plus one to other kinds of events or just being able to go solo to a lot of things in my life and getting to show up and have just being free and experiencing new things or new connections there too.
Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. Hence why it's a beautiful practice, right? Mm-hmm. There is a never ending well of expectations and internalization of the systems of how we're supposed to show up for love and connection. Wow. It, it is, it is [00:21:00] deep. Anyone who says that they have completely eradicated themselves from the systems, I think is a scary, it's like you can't, that's not how this works, you know?
Silver: No, and there's no, yeah, there's no perfect. And yeah, what this actually looks like day to day varies just in terms of like checking in with yourself.
Nicole: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So it's a humbling journey to be able to, to name that and, you know, you're talking about your nesting partner and, and to even go through the complexities of, you know, hmm.
I guess this is just what I'm feeling in my heart of, um, being able to name to that nesting partner or any other partner that you're connecting with, or a lover or friend or human that I'm feeling drawn.
Silver: Even your words are just like a overarching word for all of that.
Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Silver: That, that you were saying
Nicole: the web, I guess maybe the web. Yeah. I [00:22:00] like lover. That's been a great. For me 'cause it feels so expansive. I have lovers, I have sex with, I have lovers I don't have sex with. And I, and I use that word often, I'm like, Hey lover, like, hello lover. Like I use that. Anyone who's reached like a certain level of in, what's that level?
I don't know, but a closeness and intimacy that I feel of, you're seeing me, I'm seeing you. I'm like, hi, beautiful human. Hey lover. You know? Um, beyond that, if people wanna use labels, like partner, um, I usually just have a, you know, co-created conversation on like, what does that mean for you? What does that mean for me?
What does that mean for us as a third separate thing that we do? Um, which has been a really fun space to like get creative, uh, with the words. Yeah,
Silver: I might, yeah. My level of loves. I like that.
Nicole: Yeah. It's crazy that more, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but just the complexities, and this is something in all relationships that we navigate.
When I. Whew. Yeah. When you've been relating with someone in a [00:23:00] certain capacity for a certain amount of time and your desires with that shift, and you wanna move and say you don't wanna invite that nesting partner as your plus one anymore, and the pain that that can create and the ways that you stay in connection with that person through that pain as you navigate your shifting energies out of expectations of the relationship escalator.
Oof. Wow.
Silver: Yeah. It's, wow, it's, so we made the move together. Okay. Which, that is a whole level of interdependency and Yes. Transition. Like it was really difficult for me after the move of, luckily I already knew a few people in this area, but even then they were like 30 minutes away. And I was moving from Chicago where it's very walkable.
It's really easy to get to, and I'd been there for so long, but I just had a really large like love of gloves that were very easily accessible. Um, yeah. And I. Going from that to feeling much more isolated. Even though I got to move as someone that I love deeply was still difficult. It was a level of dependence that I'm not super [00:24:00] comfortable with.
Um, and just in terms of energy, like I thrive with more social connections or getting to explore different facets of myself. So yeah, it was a powerful transition to go through and I'm like, glad that I'm now building community here.
Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Silver: Um, he and I were talking about really even after that transition, like really clearly being able to live together well, to be able to make it through hard times and at the same time and like really enjoying living together, but knowing that we both really prioritize community and knowing that in a few years, like we'd like to live closer to other community and maybe that'll happen together and maybe it won't.
And being able to have that conversation where we care first and foremost about pretty much space to be open about where we both want to end up.
Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Silver: Just. Getting emotional, like it made me feel so loved. Yeah. And it's something that not everyone understands that, like that in itself is a commitment to me, and it's a commitment for the two of us to show up for each [00:25:00] other in a really honest way instead of necessarily a way, like in a way that feels right for us.
Nicole: Yeah, yeah. What is the emotionality tapping into there for you?
Silver: It's a kind of euphoria and joy from feeling really loved, feeling really supported, and getting to do that for another person in a way that we aren't necessarily taught or we aren't given the script to initially.
Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, because yeah, like the script of our typical American consciousness would be.
So you're breaking up with your partner, so you're breaking up, you're, you're, you're, you're moving out, you're breaking up. But of course, like, right, like, and it's like, oh my god, no. You know, like we have, we are staying in connection. We are finding ways to continue to write our love story that are not the typical script, and this is what's working for the two of us, right?
It's like a whole different paradigm of thinking where I think a traditional framework would see that as a breakup, as a, um, even people use this word deescalation as [00:26:00] if you're going back down the, Hey everyone, why, why we're reorienting, you know, for taking it off the escalator. That means we also don't say deescalating either, right?
Like we are reorienting.
Silver: Exactly. And I think sometimes like those structures and the like relationship escalator, it's so prevalent that it can be that much harder to understand when you want something that is opposed to that kind of model and that much more confusing for the people around you. If.
It's not something that they're thinking about. And so it was that, that much more freeing and realizing, oh, this is a way that I feel really loved, but I didn't even know beforehand. And there's such a joy in getting to discover that.
Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. It's like tapping into more language, tapping into more authenticity and more communication skills, I imagine all at the same time.
Silver: And that's like another, like the whole deescalation, like it, it's relationship anarchy, but it could also be so many things. I find this a lot in queer communities, like there's just an openness to this, [00:27:00] um, kind of connection, but deescalation, like yes, certain things, certain times you are spending less time or sure.
Like you are connecting in different ways, but it, it almost has a sort of lesser in it and Right. I dunno. Some of my favorite connections are people that I used to spend a lot more time with, but we've stayed in touch and still get to connect in these really beautiful ways like. I have someone who we used to be pretty intimately involved, like with each other's families as well, and we don't talk as much anymore, but we're still like one another's go-to person for like, Hey, I've got some family drama, I've got the tea, and I need someone to vent who's seen it.
And because we both have that experience, like they're just such a level of support and it'd be so sad to not be open to that kind of connection for me at least.
Nicole: Absolutely, absolutely. Absolutely. So tapping in again to the fullness of the abundance of love. Right. Love isn't just all the way at the top of the escalator, right?
It's infinite. With all of these different connections. You could have [00:28:00] a deep relationship with someone you talk to once a year. And sometimes we have deeper relationships with someone we talk to once a year than some of our coworkers. You know, who you see every day and you have the how's the weather conversation every day?
Right. And so, you know, it's, it's, it's the fullness of that, um, when you feel it in all these different connections. And so, you know, I'm, I'm curious, I feel like we're kind of hitting on this next question, which is, why do you practice relationship anarchy? Why is this important to you?
Silver: Yeah. I practice a relationship anarchy for so many reasons.
And the more I explore it, the more I just realize, oh, it helps me really live out a lot of my core values in different ways. Like, as I mentioned, getting to show up and care for the people of my life and not just care for like one romantic partner. Um, but thinking about that more expansively mm-hmm. Is one way that.
Like it leaves me open to, oh, maybe I can make the time to go explore this, like one aspect of something I've been interested in. And who knows, maybe it'll become a really big part of my life, or maybe I'll go a few times. And not that you can't do that in another framework, but I think it's easier to be open to new connections like that.
Mm-hmm. In the paradigm of relationship anarchy.
Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. The freedom of possibilities. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that it's beautiful when there's space for the unfolding of what each relationship can bring into your life. I. I'm recalling someone who, who came, who, ah, this person said they were a relationship, an an, they knew about my dissertation.
They're like, oh, I'm a relationship anarchist. 'cause no one can control me. And like, fuck that. And I was like, oh, well, wow. We, we have [00:30:00] very different concepts of relationship anarchy, but like, hi, hello. Um, and they, they had come up to me afterwards and they were like, Hey, like Nicole, do you wanna spend some time together?
And I, I had said like, sure, like, as like, friendly platonic, I'd love to do that, you know? And they were like, no, like not as friends. And I was like, oh, this is awkward. Hi. Uh, like it, it feels. It feels very antithetical to relationship anarchy to come up to me and be like, hi, I want to date you. You know?
And be like, not just like, hi, I want to spend time with you. Um, does that make sense? Like this? Yeah. This intentionality that this person had, essentially saying like, hi, I want to fuck you, you know, I would like to have sex with you. And I said, Hey, can we like hang out as friends? And they're like, no, that's not what I want.
Silver: You're like, it must be the certain way.
Nicole: Yeah. Like, I'm like, hi, can we just get to know each other as friends first and see where this goes, buddy? I don't know. You know what I mean?
Silver: Well, there's so many. Like there's that level of expectation and try to let go of that, of [00:31:00] Yeah. Like just caring about, and I think you get to like see what really matters too.
Like is it emotional intimacy? Maybe some people really thrive on a ton of physical intimacy and there's nothing wrong with that. Like
Nicole: Oh yeah.
Silver: Go being a slut.
Nicole: Yeah, totally. Yeah.
Silver: And at the same time. Like it is all about the letting go, which it can be tricky to meet people who really have that same paradigm.
I mean, there's so many people who use the term or I feel like really commonly kind, people think about it and they think, oh, anarchy, that means I can do whatever I want. No commitments. Like no rules. And that's not what it is either. Like I really describe too, um, you can be whoever you are, you want to be, but just don't hurt other people.
Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Silver: And I think that's a really key part. Like you're still accountable to the people. Like you can still cause harm and that's not the goal. Like freedom does not mean you get to cause as much harm as you want. I at least personally think that we should still really be striving to minimize as harm.
Like we're going to harm the people in our lives. But a really key part of doing this well, like, and people talk about [00:32:00] ethical non-monogamy and that ethical piece is so important of, you can talk about it, like try to set expectations if it's something that you know you want, like you are getting attached to someone or I.
Figuring out, hey, like this didn't quite sit right with me. And instead of just like holding that resentment, like actually making it a conversation with someone.
Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So, yeah, I think about the skills it takes to really have those conversations though as someone who just, who led a couple's therapy session today where they were just yelling at each other and I was like, oh God, like how do I stop this from happening?
Like, what do I, as the therapist, I'm just sitting there watching this like, oh, dear God, I don't even, there's just so many skills to have those conversations that I think the majority of people don't have, um, under our current system. Hence where I appreciate your discussion of relationship anarchy being absolutely political, right?
So when our average reading grade level in the United States is sixth grade. We have to talk about how that impacts [00:33:00] accessibility to even concepts of anarchy and thinking about it as chaos. When, when you read the text and the philosophy, it's really about community and mutual aid. Like it's, it's almost the opposite of that.
But we're in a system where the average reading level is sixth grade, and so that prevents access to Right. And so like, hence how this is so deeply political to have even a conversation about desires and needs from another person when we don't have the skills.
Silver: Yeah. And there's so many, like the story of codependency, especially within the family, is so prevalent.
Like, I knew, I, I very much grew up in a environment where it was, oh, my feelings are hurt.
This is your responsibility. Mm-hmm. Like, you do something about it.
Nicole: Mm.
Silver: And it's really difficult, especially when you're first unlearning these skills. And even when you're not unlearning it, it can still like it, it does have a way of really hitting at, oh.
That touched a nerve that was triggering. Like, I need to actually like it. Practicing this will teach you about so many different [00:34:00] triggers that you didn't know you had.
Nicole: Yeah. Even as you said that I felt that in my body, it was like, oof. Yeah. Still in learning. I just went to, um, I just had like a event with some, like five of my different lovers, right?
Mm-hmm. And so like as I'm sitting there, I'm with all of these people, I'm like, are you okay? Like, are you happy? Are you happy? Are you happy? Are you happy? Are you happy? Are you happy? It's like, girl, you cannot be that responsible for everybody. You know? Like you cannot, no. Like, people are gonna do that.
So I'm still unlearning that too.
Silver: Oh, it's so, yeah. And like, not that, I mean that's a beautiful
Nicole: Right.
Silver: Information too and
Nicole: gotta chill.
Silver: Yeah. Like it's lovely that you wanna check in. Like I, the first time that I was like with a love and like with one of their other loves and like getting to see them hold space for both of us and like checking in that was like, oh, this is a way to feel cared for that I didn't know I wanted.
And like, it's so beautiful to get to see like, I mean at that point I was really new to non-monogamy and even just getting to see like a partner expose themself with someone else and getting to see someone else really appreciate [00:35:00] them and who they were was, yeah. So lovely. But
Nicole: it's beautiful to be a part of those moments, right?
Mm-hmm. Because they're often, uh, very privatized in our puritanical society, you know, where you can't, you know, you can't do anything in the erotics. So to, or, or just, you know, basic care often in our society can be really taboo, you know, a kiss, a handhold, all that sort of stuff. So to be able to see that, um, see a love, be loved by another person that's, you know, compersion and to feel all of that, those are often very privatized moments.
And so it can be such an expansion to bring some of those into, um, shared spaces beyond just a dyadic form of one and another person for sure. Yeah.
Silver: Beyond relationship anarchy too, and it's, I feel like all of these things just relate to each other. It's kind. They absolutely are. Yes. All over the place in a beautiful way.
But it is beyond, like the practice too can just be. Normalizing talking about certain things with [00:36:00] a wide variety of types of connections too. Yeah. Like normalizing talking about sex, like talking about pleasure. Mm-hmm. I was having a conversation recently with someone of pro pleasure and pro intimacy could be a new like pro sex.
'cause it's not that it necessarily like pleasure and intimacy can mean so many different things, but just normalizing talking about what feels good to us or talking about, yeah. Any of these things with even connections that we might not just, not like, oh, and you need to talk about this to a complete stranger because you don't need to share your life story with someone.
Mm-hmm.
Nicole: Um, or
Silver: like everyone you meet. But yeah, just because you're with someone where maybe you're not intimate in a certain way doesn't mean that being able to normalize talking about that with them can't still be a really grounding practice or a way to learn more about both of you.
Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
Absolutely. Which is. Spot on for the next question, which is, how does relationship anarchy impact your practice of intimacy? So you're already speaking to the ways that it opens up more [00:37:00] capacity for conversations that are often privatized into, um, more expansive webs of love. I'm curious, what are some of the other ways that relationship anarchy has impacted your intimacy?
Silver: Trying to think of like, what does intimacy mean? I think first and foremost, it's really enabled me to explore emotional intimacy with so many people like. I'm trying just to prac, it's encouraged me to practice being vulnerable with as not as many people as I can. But when I do trust the people in my life, I wanna show up and be honest with them.
And it, it's also, I'm a person who doesn't experience a big difference between like falling for a quote unquote friend versus a quote unquote romantic partner. Like, just wanna get to know someone. Flirting, for lack of a better word, of just like, yeah, like wanting to learn more and get to experience a person in different contexts is something that I kind of experience.
I know there's not a clear line between platonic and romantic connections to me, like there's a difference between physical attraction and having that there or [00:38:00] not. But for me, most usually it's more wanting to get to know the person. I don't experience the strong distinction like type and it's allowed me to just get to go after that curiosity for the people in my life.
Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Silver: And then get to kind of see what feels good for both of us.
Nicole: Yeah.
Silver: And honor that.
Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And each relationship's gonna be incredibly unique. Totally. You know? Yeah. Yeah. I think about, um, I think about how we talk about the relationship escalator. There's also a physical intimacy escalator I've noticed for myself in my different connections where I.
If I start kissing someone this, and I, I'm doing work to deconstruct it and I feel pretty good, but you gotta also do it with the person that you're with and make sure they're on the same page. Just because we've kissed does not mean I want to fuck you. And just because we, um, I don't know, like had sex once doesn't mean I wanna have sex with you forever or ever again, maybe.
Right. [00:39:00] Um, it's interesting, at least for myself, how I think coming from the paradigms of monogamy, there's this felt sense of if I do this, um, it's on a escalator type as I build intimacy with that person, of course, one night stands, moments play parties, pick up play la you know, but like, if I am developing a long-term relationship and we open up the box of physical touch, once we've done a, it's supposed to lead to B, to C to D, right.
And to kind of like throw that all out the window and be like, maybe this is a person I actually like going to hang out with, spend quality time kissing and snuggling and thought was. Perfect for our relationship. It feels really good. Like great.
Silver: I love getting to like kiss people or like really like long hugs as a way to show affection for the people in my life.
Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Silver: Um, and clearly, you know, not, not to say you just do that without consent. Like consent is really important, like wanting to like, and it feels like important to Yeah,
Nicole: totally. Totally.
Silver: Um, and yeah, so like you can, [00:40:00] it makes me wanna go back to the word escalate and deescalate, but you can just be open to what feels good in the moment and maybe your libido is really high for a period of time and then maybe it changes.
Like, I recently went on HRT and that has been a wild ride of showing up, like, and how I feel in my body and like what I want. Um, and just getting to be open to that and trying to communicate with that to the people who wanna know more about that in my life is just. Yeah, that's been a whole level of intimacy too.
Nicole: Doesn't it feel liberating to not have that pressure to show up in a certain box of, uh, of like meaning making, you know? Uh,
Silver: and it does, like, I don't know. I guess when I think of intimacy, I think of play as well.
Nicole: Yeah.
Silver: As a kind of vulnerability, like whether that's kink or even just like I am a sucker for games.
I love role playing games. Yeah. Um, other kinds of games and just, I think intimacy, like it doesn't, as we've been talking about before, there's so many other kinds of intimacy than just physical intimacy and. Getting to invite [00:41:00] that joy and that spark into your connections, like whatever it can maybe.
Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Silver: It's really fun.
Nicole: Yeah. It's reminding me of the love is abundant, right? Not love is sex, love is abundant. And so for you playing those board games, the role playing games, that is a space of deep intimacy and connection and aeros and passion and life force, right? And so that is love. And so to see it fully in that is so beautiful.
So I'm curious then we are talking on some of the good things about relationship anarchy. This is where I balance it out a little bit. We'll do two different questions here, but the first one is, what are the difficulties of relationship anarchy?
Silver: No, there are none. It's so smooth. Oh, right. Exactly.
Nicole: It's so easy.
It's so easy. Why are we even talking about this?
Silver: It, it's perfect. Just do,
Nicole: everybody does it and everybody does it.
Silver: Everyone understands exactly what your life looks like. When you see you struggle.
Nicole: You struggle. I don't struggle. Yeah. Okay.
Silver: Good.
Nicole: Good. [00:42:00] Neither do i I Beyond that, I'm beyond that. Uh, no, it's
Silver: God.
There, there's, there are a lot of ways that it's challenging. Uhhuh is challenging. Anything worth doing is challenging.
Nicole: Yeah.
Silver: I think there's both challenges that should be there that are warranted or like will be there regardless. And then challenges that won't be there. Um, I mean obviously like, as the manifesto says, heterosexism is rampant.
It's out there. Um, especially in today's political climate. Um, there are a lot of people trying to erase all sorts of queer identities right now, and it's important to name that because we're not going anywhere. But seeing that is. Yeah, it takes a huge mental toll. It, there's a toll of like, in your relationship with yourself, there's a toll in just risks of where it's safe to be out or how other people will perceive you.
Or even, I mean, sometimes physical violence, like depending on what your identities are and how you show up in the world. Um, [00:43:00] so like those are very real risks. There's also just risks of people not understanding or like not knowing how to talk about your relationships. Like when I talk about wishing there was a better word or we had more language, part of that is just to be able to communicate, to help other people really understand you.
And we make a lot of assumptions. And even I think, I think these assumptions hurt us all, even if you are in a monogamous, you know, type of relationship. But there's still just a lot of assumptions about, oh, like here's what your dynamic looks like. Here's the, maybe the gender role that you both play in that connection or anything like that.
And it's. Humans want to make patterns. So when you don't have that language, it can be that much harder to explain it. Um, it shows up in all kinds of conversations. You know, you're talking to your coworkers about what are you doing this weekend? And you have to think about like, how am I describing it? Or like, do I feel safe saying, oh, one of my partners or loves as we were talking about, or love or like what?
Yeah, you have to think about language in such a different [00:44:00] level in terms of like what is safe, how you wanna, like, what will make you feel seen? Because it can take more work to actually feel seen by certain people too. Um, especially like, I dunno, I've spent a lot of time, like I'm, it's definitely a special interest of mine.
I'm a nerd about relationships, which just helps me so much about it. And I'm in a lot of beautiful connections with people who haven't spent as much time about it. And just because they haven't spent that time doesn't mean that I don't want them to get to see me for who I am,
Nicole: right? Mm-hmm.
Silver: And I say all of those are things that could be media like remediated, if.
Our society looked different or like as we work towards liberation for us all and more flexibility in what our relationships can look like and what our community structures can be. Um, and then beyond that, there's a whole host of difficulties that, you know, even if we lived in this perfect, you know, liberated world, we're still going to have so many difficulties of it's, it's fucking terrifying to really mm-hmm.[00:45:00]
What do I want every day to let go of longevity of a relationship or a certain structure as a form of security in your connection to really need to find that security in your web, but then also first and foremost in yourself of like meeting that self trust to be what guides you. Yeah. Making your own script.
Even if we had many other scripts and were able to see a wide variety of scripts in our lives, it's still a scary thing to do.
Nicole: Yeah. Exploring the unknown. Like, is it not for the faint of heart to put it lightly? Right. It is not. It is not. Um, yeah, as you were speaking, I was just thinking about all of the different times that I have, uh, quite frankly given up or maybe protected, whatever word we wanna say on other people understanding my life and what I do.
You know, I'm just like, mm-hmm. You know, I've been at like different, like jobs where I've just said my partner consistently, even though every time I [00:46:00] say that I'm referring to a different lover in my head of like, oh, I was talking to my partner and my partner and I went over, you know, but I'm like, you need to think that I just have one so that you don't persecute me and my job security.
And so I'm gonna say my, my partner, you know? Um, and so there's been so many times I do that, or, you know, you, you say you, you start to take the time to invest your capitalism, you start to, you know. What's a word? It's not spend time, it's not spend, invest.
Silver: It has to be a good garden metaphor to like plant.
Yeah,
Nicole: plant time. Yeah. I dunno. Yeah. Yeah. You're sharing your time, you're sharing your time with your friend, and you start to explain what you're doing and how you wanna, what'd you say?
Silver: Cultivate, maybe it, sure, yeah.
Nicole: You're cultivating time with this person and we are telling them, you know, I wanna love people.
Like, uh, platonic relationships are just as important as romantic relationships. Look at my web, this is what I've got going on. And then they look at you and they're like, [00:47:00] that's wild. I could never do that. You're like, okay, I wasn't asking for that. Just wanted you to see me. But thanks, thanks for that input.
You know? And then, you know, or if you'll ask for support as you're going through it. Wow. I'm noticing all these people easing tendencies coming up. What do you think? Well, I, that's just crazy. I could never do that structure. That's why it never works out. Oh, okay. You know? Okay. You know, and so there is a lot of pain at the different points of feeling, um, unseen feeling, um, misunderstood.
A lot of my research for my dissertation talked about therapists failing to see their clients. My, my dissertation, um, research participants naming how therapists failed them, um, or, or really took it to the deeper extreme of pathologizing them, of, wow, you have multiple lovers. Look at your disorganized attachment, avoid an attachment, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Oof. That's a scary one that I'll fight for the rest of my career and I fight is the right word for that.
Silver: I mean, so many [00:48:00] of this was in the DSM until very recently, right? Not still isn't. It's, it, it is really tricky because it's likely, it is a form of coming out, like it practicing a new relationship style requires coming out of closet, and there are going to be certain connections that go along, like, and it might be difficult.
Think of the right way to word this. And you were talking about judgment and
Nicole: Yeah.
Silver: It's a really fine line of, I definitely have like, loves in my life who relationship anarchy is not something to think about. Right. A few of them might be listening to this, um, later on, which is exciting to think about also.
Nicole: Hi friends. Hi. Yeah.
Silver: Hi. Um, and so some of 'em, like honestly a little bit nerve-racking, like I'm curious to hear what they'll think or how it resonates because I know it's not the kind of conversation that they're all having all the time.
Nicole: Mm.
Silver: But there's a difference as you were talking about, um, between Oh, that's interesting.
And like wanting to know more. Like [00:49:00] Okay. If not something that someone's like super. Not necessarily like comfortable about talking about, but like there's a difference between that and like the judgment too. Yeah. Um, thought you were saying of like, I've definitely gotten the, oh, well, I could never like needing to qualify, like any conversation around it is like this boun like putting a wall between someone.
Yeah. And like how I choose to practice my life and Yeah. It's, especially when I was first and like, I mean, I still feel like I'm fairly new, but I'm getting more, like, I'm constantly getting more and more comfortable showing up as myself in different relationships. And it can be really tricky to navigate, okay, what is just discomfort because this is a new subject for someone versus like, where am I getting that judgment?
And then obviously, like I feel very fortunate of very few people in my life are explicitly like, like I, I'm not, it sucks that I have to say I feel fortunate, but I did not grow up in a religious community where like my queerness was seen as sin or something that was a reason to be ostracized. And I.
That bar is so low, but like [00:50:00] I don't want, like that happens and obviously if people are in a situation like that, that's a challenge that many people deal with, but when even when that's not happening, yeah, it can still be painful to try to struggle. It can still be, I don't know. I think I've said what I've been trying to say.
Nicole: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. There's still struggle because the whole paradigm in our white, western, monogamous culture to name it specifically because this is not all cultural groups, to be very clear, that's part of the whole thing right here. Everyone, it's not all cultural groups, but within, in our culture, this is not the normal paradigm.
And I mean that we're normal to mean like what it means of like normal, you get accepted, all that sort of stuff. And so anything outside of that, yeah, if you come from more of like where I came from of like a hyper religious antique space, it's even more to crawl out of, but there's still so much to crawl out of.
Even if you didn't. Weren't raised in any of that. There is so [00:51:00] much indoctrination. Mm-hmm. Every Hallmark movie you've ever seen, my friend, the rom-coms, it's deep within our psyche. And so that is around all of us. And then again, the systems that keep us as cogs in a machine to make money for the people at the top that take away our time and energy to explore concepts like this.
Hence why the podcast is free and available on a platform and you don't have to be able to read. You can listen. Wow. Okay. All of that right, is at the core of what you're saying. So it's deeply related to capitalism and liberating ourselves from these structures that keep us so isolated. So. I see you as much as I can in this moment here.
Right. You know, and, and I, I think that's why when we started this, you know, conversation before the recording, I had said how transformative it has been for me to have these conversations on the podcast because I feel so seen, I feel so understood, um, by a stranger that I have never met before, but we can sit together and know these two words and have a general sense of a [00:52:00] vision of what we see for our lives and hope for society.
And so that being some of the most like, powerful moments of intimacy for sure.
Silver: Yeah. No, thank you for making space for these conversations and Yeah. With what, what you said a couple of things on that of one, looking into just the, like learning more about the history of marriage or learning about relationships in different ways has been just helping me kind of like, like there is a humor to it.
Like it's kind of ridiculous how recent the concept of marriage as it currently is. It like it exists. And I mean, until extremely recently it was very. Explicitly around concentration of wealth, passing down resources, who your heir is or like who's going to get like your estate or whatever. And then even more recently, that needs to be this.
I mean the all or nothing marriage, this idea that it needs to be completely emotionally fulfilling and that's the person that you come into your own with or your other half. And then with what you were talking about, you also mentioned a very real challenge of relationship [00:53:00] anarchy of we are, like in capitalism, we are robbed of so much time.
Like everyone just, we have so little time for our loves, for our hobbies, for ourself. And it takes a lot of time to truly build this kind of intimacy with people.
Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Silver: And yeah, I, I found for me, like the amount of energy that I have to, I mean like especially invest in new relationships, like part of this practice for me has been, been accepting the ebb and flow.
Like I feel really fortunate. I had a slower time at work when I first moved.
Nicole: Yeah.
Silver: And I feel very aware of. That's enabled me to build community here much faster than I otherwise would've been.
Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Silver: Which is a very like, humbling thing.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. The, um, in my dissertation that was something that came out too, was, um, more college education, um, more people with college education and backgrounds.
Showing up in my sample size. And so that being a part of the [00:54:00] privilege that it takes to reflect on these things and have the time and the energy to build relationships in this way. And I think a great book for listeners who are curious about some of the stuff on marriage, of course there's sex ed Dawn, a lot of people know that one.
Um, but also how love conquered marriage, if you really wanna get deep into it, like yeah, you can. All the different cultures in that one. Um, and yeah, I think what's fascinating about that is, you know, like I devoted my academic studies to this topic and nerding out so hard on this, and theory and practice are two.
Different things. In my mind, I can absolutely know that this is a cultural system. This is not how it's always been. You know, historically, this is actually, like you said, a very small blip of time and I can know all of that as facts. And the second my partner held hands with another human of romantic interest, I lost my shit, you know?
[00:55:00] And so it's been fascinating. It's much better now. What a journey, but it's real. Go ahead.
Silver: Oh, I would say that even just being able to acknowledge it of, instead of saying like, oh, I lost my shit, and I'm, I'm not going to reflect on that at all. Like, that is so much of that process too, of it's not being afraid of jealousy, it's not being afraid of these.
Uncomfortable feelings.
Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Silver: Even though you can't initially be,
Nicole: what an opportunity, dear listener, to reflect on where your psyche is at. When I'm jealous, what narratives am I saying about them? About me? About what my worth is, about what is happening in the future. It's a deep psychedelic one with a lot of pain, but if you sit for a second and think, wow, what is that immediate reaction that I'm having?
There's so much that you can explore, just like. Deep minds of the psychological cavern that you can unpack with every time. Um, and so I'm definitely not done with my jealousy journey. It is still very Yeah, exactly. [00:56:00] You're, you're shaking your head. Yeah. Um, there's still so much to go. Um, I do wanna name that it has gotten better though.
The things that I at least were like terrified about with polyamory at the beginning do not terrify me in the same way now. And so I'm optimistic about that continual development. But yeah, the, the praxis versus theory experiment is, is one of continual compassion for myself, for you, I'm sure. And for all of you dear listeners, is to just take that deep breath as you can intellectually know something, but because of the systems, not you, because of the systems and how deeply that's been indoctrinated, it's gonna be uncomfortable.
It's gonna be scary, and that's okay. That's okay.
Silver: And there's such a difference between knowing something and like getting to either or deal with it in your body. I mean, I feel very fortunate that I have a therapist, um, who specializes in queerness in. Various kinds of relationship structures. That's cool.
That's another privilege. Yeah. It's amazing to have someone I can reflect with on that. Um, I've also, it's funny, like one of my first experiences with Jelly jealousy was [00:57:00] actually the reverse. Oh yeah. So when I first met my current partner, I was also, um, I had a few other lovers at the time and would remember like coming back from another date and he would be pretty fine.
Like he really wouldn't have, like, he would just be ready to like connect, but didn't experience much jealousy at the time, and that dysregulated me.
Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Silver: Like, I just, it took me a while to really trust that he was not experiencing something that I had to caretake for.
Nicole: Yeah.
Silver: Part of it comes from like, I think I can have a bit of, I call myself a recovering perfectionist and I can definitely try to control everything.
It's like by reading about it, I'm like, well, I read the thing and here's what you're supposed to do with jealous. It's like, let me show up and be the good relationship anarchist and do the thing. But yeah, just another form of really. Being open and honest about where you're actually at.
Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely.
I hear you. In terms of that caretaking, you know, are you sure you're not jealous? Wait, are are, are you, are you sure? Are you [00:58:00] lying? You know, which, it's an important line of thought though, 'cause some folks will like, really try to hold that back. Really try to hold that back. And then I think about the other thing in our society of this deep social conditioning, that jealousy is a sign of your love.
Right? And so if I came home to a partner who's not jealous, it's like, well, do you even love me? Do you even care about me? You know, which is something to unpack too, that the, the possessiveness is not necessarily a sign of love per se. I'm just gonna say that confidently.
Silver: Yeah. And over time, like getting to hear him reflect back to me like the joy that he's seen in me or the ways that he can tell that I am exploring more about myself, I think it really took having more of those conversations to feel more grounded in how he responded.
And it's also been interesting of since then we have navigated times of jealousy.
Nicole: Beautiful.
Silver: And it's always funny to see like, oh, that comes up for you in very different ways. And I think it would come up for me.
Nicole: Yes, [00:59:00] absolutely. Absolutely. So we'll balance it out then, and I'll ask you the next question, which is, what are some of the joys of relationship anarchy?
Silver: So many, it's hard not to like take a moment and just smile from being asked that question. Yeah.
Nicole: Hell yeah. You deserve that. After everything we just said, you deserve that. Yeah, me too.
Silver: Like everyone who's on this journey, if I think it can just open you up to. So much support, so much care, so much love, um, and not necessarily like turning away connections because they don't need to be a certain kind of thing.
Even being comfortable like deescalating, like I think I've had quite frankly, like I've had some family connections that I've had moments of, is this someone I can keep in my life? And I think having more of these tools has helped me set better boundaries and understanding, okay, here is how I can connect with this person and here's maybe where I can't connect instead of me needing to completely go black and white, which [01:00:00] feels funny as a joy, but like, no, it has meant that I can hold some relationships that are really important to me, but have had a lot of pain and still find ways to uphold them in my life.
Um, it's allowed me to look back and get, to build all kinds of different unexpected connections that hold me, that I get to hold these people. Um, I get to explore so many different parts of myself. Even moments like what we're just talking about, like getting to. Find moments that make me feel releasing, that make me feel really loved outside of the typical scripts.
Yeah. Of like just getting to continuously learn more about who I am and what I really want, or like being open to figuring out, like especially I think as I get older, I am in my late twenties right now and I'm starting to really feel that like for queer communities, unfortunately that is pretty much an elder, almost an elder.
And you don't see a ton of examples of what later, like middle and late stages in life look like for queerness or at least not as [01:01:00] many expansive models as you get of, at least for me, I had a lot more examples of the very particular form of marriage. Um,
Nicole: right.
Silver: And then really getting to figure it out or getting to build community and seeing people doing life all different ways.
Um, or getting to say like, oh, this is super affirming. Um, yeah, like coming home from a day and getting. So like have that energy of like, oh, I'm learning about a new skill. Or like, I've recently been playing more, um, exploring like ChAARI and rope and like getting to
Nicole: mm-hmm.
Silver: Learn that even though like not, you know, I don't need one person to fulfill all those needs and like it's getting to be open with, I don't have to close off off certain parts of myself just because like the person I live with doesn't necessarily share those parts.
Nicole: Right. How expansive. Mm-hmm. Really. Right. When you sit with that, how expansive to be able to not have to shut yourself off. I think, you know, so much again of our society will say, [01:02:00] you have to do relationships in this way, which makes me think about all of the. And this way as in one person that fulfills all of your things, not what we just talked about.
One person. One person, one person was one person that you should live with. 'cause that's what you do when you're normal. Right? Of course. And so if duh. And so if you don't do that, right? Exactly. And so if you don't do that with them, you're a bad person. You are X, Y, z, whatever labels, you know, um, we wanna throw on that cheating all the other complexities that we can throw onto that.
And so I think about the life force energy of passion and aeros that is completely shut off to think if you had really wanted to do ChAARI and your nesting partner didn't, to think, wow, okay, I can't do this because it will hurt this dynamic. And how you have to shut off that part of yourself, let alone the erotic parts of ourselves that.
Yeah, and I've talked about this on the podcast, like you, yeah, everyone gets to do whatever they want, [01:03:00] but our bodies respond to multiple people. If I put a monogamous person in a sex research experiment where they're watching porn, their body will react to multiple people. And that's just a lived experience that we all react to more than one person and have arousal complexes for that.
Right? And so there's so much, at least in the sexual. Like a freedom space for me of my body. Longs to have that kiss. Doesn't even have to be sex. I long to kiss this person. And I feel that in my body. But if I was in the old paradigm, it'd be like, you're a bad girl. How dare you? You are not faithful to your person.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. And so I have to shut off my life force. I have to disconnect from my bodily desires to fit into this paradigm. And so, man, I'm so curious as people, you know, like polyamory is one of the most Googled term I heard of the last year. And so like we are, yeah. It is happening. Cultural con.
We're always gonna have diversity, we're always gonna have monogamy, polyamory, we're always gonna have something going on here. [01:04:00] Right? But as the cultural consciousness is rising into more, uh, rising mm. As the cultural consciousness is expanding into more exp. Uh, ways of relating beyond monogamy. I am curious what our passion and life force is gonna feel like when we're not cutting it off to fit into this box of a narrative anymore.
Silver: Yeah, and I, I think that obviously I, I have seen some people where they first learn about non-monogamy and relationship anarchy, and they get kind of militant about it. I'm like, oh, you must be like, everyone must be a certain way.
Nicole: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Silver: No, like, the point of it is expansiveness and being open however you show up, like being monogamous can be a perfectly beautiful way of relating, but it, regardless, I think kind of learning how to take what works for you and what doesn't, and getting to maybe being comfortable exploring and playing, like, not that you have to try on different relationship styles, but just [01:05:00] giving yourself a sense of like what actually resonates and making it a choice instead of a, oh, it must be a certain way.
Can bring you so much energy in different ways.
Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so,
Silver: and it also, like, I always wonder, I mean, you were talking about this expansiveness and I think some language, like I'm, I feel so grateful for like all the texts that we have about relationship anarchy and all the different, like values and example, like that's something that we don't, I'd love to see even more of.
'cause we don't have a, it's kind of hard, you have to dig for it. But having those, like having the manifesto like, and things to point to and learn from is so powerful. And I'm curious to see how labels evolve.
Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Silver: As people become more and more aware of. Different kinds of connections and relating.
Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. And so gratitude for you, for being a part of that process of creating public content and resources on the conversation, right? Every single conversation we have, all of the listeners [01:06:00] who are tuning in, it impacts their consciousness, right? It impacts my consciousness. I'll hold our conversation when I go into the next.
And so, you know, we are working together as a collective to create more language and to evolve with, with these two words, relationship anarchy. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm curious then the last question. What do you wish other people knew about relationship anarchy?
Silver: I think the first thing that came to mind, um, is relationship anarchy isn't all about sex.
I think some people assume, oh, like you're having a. A whole bunch of sex or like, you must be really slutty and again, like I'm amazing. Yeah, yeah. Promoting that. And that's not the point. Like if anything, relationship anarchy has helped me be really kind to myself during periods when I've had more depression, when I've felt less slutty, um, because of depression or because of other things.
And at least for me, it's about emotional [01:07:00] intimacy first and foremost over sex. It's about getting to know people and being vulnerable. And sometimes it requires a lot of work too, like
Nicole: mm-hmm.
Silver: I was talking about how like I do check-ins. Um, I love the radar. Yeah. Tool for multi Emory and telling a friend about it, and she asked me, oh, so you project manage your relationship.
You don't, sorry, hold on. Like, yeah. Kind of. Honestly, it really helps.
Nicole: What do you do? You just trust that the other person knows exactly what you mean without saying it. Oof. Complex. Yeah,
Silver: I'm trying to, but yeah, like even, I think you can still practice relationship anarchy in a monogamous context too. Like there's nothing saying that you can't have one like sexual relationship or one, again, it's hard for me to use the word romantic just because personally I don't always know what that means.
That if you want one romantic relationship or one relationship that has this exclusivity, [01:08:00] that can still be relationship anarchy or you can still create frameworks where you're open to love in all ways, where you're really being intentional about how you connect or communicating. Like even one of the forms of the manifesto that I find firstly really difficult is like starting with like leading with trust and assuming best intentions.
Nicole: Yes,
Silver: it's, I find that that impacts so many small details of how I'm relating to people, of just like moments when I feel hurt and how I think about harm.
Nicole: Yeah.
Silver: Relationship and, yeah, it's. Dealing with conflict is tied to this. There's, it is about so much more than just sex.
Nicole: Yes. Such a good point to share because, whew.
Um, part of the main concepts of relationship anarchy is that our sexual and romantic, how redfin, that lovely gray word, uh, are not more important than our platonic connections. Right. So mm-hmm. [01:09:00] Inherently that means it's not about sex. And so some people get very, like you were saying, vitriolic to say you cannot practice monogamy and relationship anarchy.
That is, and I say, okay, are you prioritizing the sexual connections as if that's somehow the diviner of, you know, the whole, didn't we start with the first promise? If it's not about that? And I think, uh, if you are a monogamous person practicing relationship anarchy, I think the clarity from relationship anarchy of, uh, what, what do we want to design this, like, is really important.
What does monogamy mean to us in other cultures? Kissing on the lips on the cheek is super normal. In America it is not. So is that considered cheating? Is that considered okay, you and your lover, whoever that is, sit down and co-create and design that for yourself? Right? So those values of co-creating rather than a.
Assuming that we're just gonna go into this blanketly, I think is really, really important. And something that I've [01:10:00] thrown around on the podcast as an alternative way of speaking about it is sexual fidelity, right? Mm-hmm. And if, if, if the word monogamy for some folks has so much tied up to it is it is a heavy word and they don't like it anymore.
You know, maybe we use the word sexual fidelity, because you can do that in a dyad. You can do that in a poly Q Right? Having a enclosed sexual practice. Right. And then see beyond that, as, you know, you're still able to form all these deep connections and then you're not using that word monogamy that often has so much like critical weight to it in the community.
That's something I've thrown around for folks who have kind of resonated with that of like, oh, I practice sexual fidelity. And, um, it kind of gets maybe outta some of the stickiness of this, um, often tied to monogamy is this concept of the romance myth, which is antithetical to relationship anarchy.
Right? And that sense of like writing the escalator and never thinking about it and all of that. So I, I I, if the, the act of having sex with one person is not [01:11:00] antithetical to relationship anarchy. Maybe we use a new word, maybe we create more language and like, Hey, I practice, I'm a relationship anarchist that practices sexual fidelity with this one person.
You know, just throwing out more language, you know?
Silver: Yeah, not, I like that. 'cause language, it's, it does like people also sometimes think that it means that like if you don't have a certain kind of relationship, you don't have commitments in your life. Or they think that commitment, like, you know, there's a very common narrative around a looking for committed relationship and what that's supposed to mean and it goes right back to that relationship escalator.
And there are so many other ways to have commitments. Like,
Nicole: yeah,
Silver: again, like making commitments to friends about continuing to show up for each other or wanting to make like lifelong commitments. Like I definitely have a few friends where we talk about the dream of co-housing and building a home together.
And I would love to see that happen. Um, I know personally. I don't want to be a parent and a couple in my life, [01:12:00] but I really want to be an auntie. I want to get to experience like being part of that village and caring for
Nicole: mm-hmm. Um,
Silver: children as they grow up or getting to, you know, help my friends have date nights.
Um, and it's been cool to, like, I have another friend, um, who recently had a child and like it's been cool to start to get to be a part of his life. And that's been just such a beautiful moment. And yeah, there's so many kinds of, you can, it's difficult to hold that authenticity to yourself and be open to change with commitments, but the having that first value doesn't mean that you have no commitments.
Nicole: Right, right, right. Absolutely. Yeah.
Silver: I think it's more about getting to give yourself space to ask yourself like, what do I want before making that commitment and then like, putting in the work of like, let's, I. Talk about this commitment. Let's kind of see what we want it to be.
Nicole: Yeah.
Silver: Let's talk about if we want it to be open to change or not.
I mean, there's certain commitments like having a kid or [01:13:00] buying a house where I really hope people are taking that seriously 'cause it's, yeah,
Nicole: absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, I have a commitment to continually show up for the conversation of, is this working for us? I'm committed to that. Is this working for us?
Is this still working for us? Do we like where we're going? I'm committed to that. I have no idea. And, and anyone who thinks they know I think is wild. Like we have no idea what life is gonna do to us. We have no idea. And I know that's scary. I know it's scary that we're all gonna die one day, but these are the inevitable of the human experience is that change is inevitable.
We are all going to die. Scary. But it is here, what you can commit to is I'm gonna keep showing up to have this conversation with you. Do you like what we're doing right now? And if not, how do we change it? How do we deepen it if we do like it? And so one of the things I've been saying to my lover, um. One of my [01:14:00] lovers is like, through proximity and distance, right?
Mm-hmm. I, I, I promise to love you through chapters of proximity and distance, whether that's the proximity that we have as we're intimate together right now, and the distance when you're with other lovers and the proximity of talking to you every day now, or the distance of talking to you once every year, once every five years.
Who knows? I don't know. What I do know is that it will always be communicated and that it will always be mutual, right? There will no never be coercion or forced of the connection because there is abundance and we don't need to do that to each other. We do not need to do that to each other. And so I can trust that whatever is gonna happen is gonna be pleasurable in a full context.
Not necessarily in the moment 'cause pain is very real, but when I look over at my life overall, it is pleasurable 'cause it's in these value systems of commitment and the inevitability of change.
Silver: Yeah. Like [01:15:00] I have a few people in my life where I'm very committed to, I'll keep showing up for you and figuring out like what that means.
Yeah. And really what that look like. That can mean various different things. And it has meant various kinds of support over the years from like really helping, like ensure people are like helping feed people or being an accountability buddy for a goal or something like that. Um, but the thing that is shared there is that meta communication of making it really clear, like, yeah, this relationship, this connection matters to me.
Like I will keep you, you have to water your relationships. Yes. Sometimes people say that they should be easy and like there's a level of, okay, if something is too effortful, maybe it's a good time to check in with yourself. But relationships, they take effort and it is a form of work and being clear with the people.
Like I try to be really clear with the people in my life, people listening, like, tell me if I don't always do this too. Um, I know I can do better, but. Like when that, you know, just being open with [01:16:00] gratitude or like expressing how much a connection means to me or like wanting to continue showing up. And then depending on the connection making point, like opportunities for reflection on that of how is this working?
How do we feel about how often we're talking about or talking together or like the activities we're sharing.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Such a beautiful practice. Yeah. Well, I wanna check in with you and see if there is anything else that you wanna share with the listeners. Otherwise I can guide us towards our closing question.
Silver: And we've talked about care, we've talked about being in political practice, talked about play.
Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Silver: I think science, I've talked a little bit about some of my inspirations and like. Texts that have helped me better articulate my own values.
Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Silver: But science fiction, and this ties into like, play and kind of why I like Sure.
Various, like just role playing and getting to explore other worlds. Um, [01:17:00] but science fiction has been a huge learn for me of getting to understand and see just different structures. Um, like Ursula Le Guin,
Nicole: I was gonna say that. Yeah.
Silver: Brother. Um, Becky Chambers is a recent one. Like I know there's so many ways that we can inspire for different kinds of community care, different kinds of relating.
Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Another world is possible and some writers have fully fleshed out that world and given us something to even tap into. Mm-hmm. In, in that way with fiction. Mm-hmm.
Silver: Adrian Marie Brown's, um, griever Trilogy is another really good one that's recently coming out.
Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Amazing. Amazing. Well, if it feels good to you, I'll guide us towards our closing question. Great. Okay, so first I'm gonna take a deep breath with you,
and so the last question that I have is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more [01:18:00] normal?
Silver: Another question that I've heard you asked many times now there's the compulsory like anarchy test of you're what is normal?
Nicole: A listener? Hell yeah. I love that. You know that? Yes. Amazing.
Silver: Like, like I think if you're asking yourself what is normal, there's already a moment of what does that mean to you?
Like, what are you, right. There's probably some sort of pressure that you're, that's great. Anarchist. Yeah. Yeah. Where did that come from? Um, I think not being okay might be one too, I guess. Especially right now.
Nicole: Wow.
Silver: Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah. That makes sense. Under these systems. Yep.
Silver: Yep. Like we spent a lot of time being open to like, what do you want?
What do you. What works, but also just having less energy, like as we've talked about this, these kind of practices and having expansive relationships takes a lot of work and I feel lucky have like invested enough in there We go. That word invested. I know, I know. [01:19:00]
Nicole: Yes.
Silver: I've watered my relationships that like enough of that right now.
I definitely am going through a period of more depression and I feel really lucky to have people who are reaching out and can, making a point to do that watering as well for me. Mm-hmm. Um, are okay if I don't have quite the same energy levels that I normally do.
Nicole: Yeah.
Silver: Just being able to ask for help, like it's, and having and finding that really difficult, like it can take a lot of time to really understand what asking for help might look like.
Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Silver: And I think it's really easy for ourselves, for us to be hard on ourselves for that.
Nicole: Yeah. Absolutely. There's so much vulnerability in saying, Hey, I am scared. I need some support right now. Or Would you be willing to give me the support right now? That's a lot of vulnerability that's not normalized in our culture.
Right. So I think you're tapping into something really powerful, especially in our current time, the need for community and the need to be [01:20:00] vulnerable about the support that we all need right now. And
Silver: I'm scared and I don't know what I need right now, or I know that checking in with me is a very small thing that helps me feel 2% better.
And so I can at least ask for that. Or I can say, Hey, can you, you know, I, I mean, I've been telling friends like, Hey, I'm not in a great place and I don't know exactly what I need, but if you could keep checking in with me over time and seeing what I need.
Nicole: Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. I'm so glad you have that community.
Silver: Yeah. Interview is powerful and mm-hmm. It's real.
Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. It's medicine, it's everything. It's life. Truly, truly, truly. So, I'm so grateful to have had you today on the show as a part of the community of relationship anarchists who have trusted me and who have shared their voice and been a part of the conversation on relationship anarchy.
And so just immense gratitude for [01:21:00] you for coming onto the show today.
Silver: Thank you Nicole, again for making this space and it's been inspiring. I got love getting to hear all of the conversations you've shared, and it left me excited to get to be a part of this conversation too. Yeah.
Nicole: So beautiful. So beautiful.
Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Wow. If you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast, and head on over to modern anarchy podcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I wanna thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.
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