214. The Revolution of Relationship Anarchy with Juan-Carlos Pérez-Cortés

Nicole: [00:00:00] Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Juan Carlos Perez Cortez. Join us for a conversation about the revolutionary power of building loving community. Together we talk about hierarchy versus preferences, the stomach ache of NRE, and rewriting the narratives of love. Hello, dear listener and welcome back to Modern Anarchy.

I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Nicole. I am a sex and relationship [00:01:00] psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration therapy, and I am also the founder of the Pleasure Practice supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships.

Dear listener, oh wow. I have so much gratitude to be here. So much gratitude to be expanding on my dissertation research, and just so much gratitude to have a space where I can talk to all of you about such profound and life changing ideas like. Relationship anarchy. I see this practice as a really big frame shift to see the beauty of all of our relationships, to see the freedom to craft our relationships outside of these systems, outside of the ways that they are deep within our unconscious and our culture.

And so, [00:02:00] uh, what a joy to have one. Carlos, oh my gosh. I mean, his book Relationship Anarchy. Dear listener, if you have not read it, I highly recommend doing a deep dive there. I was reading his book after I had published my dissertation and there was so many crossovers and it's so validating to have a physical form to these concepts and these ideas, and I remember reading his book and just feeling so seen and like this thing that I'm practicing is actually real, a real movement and phenomenon.

So. I hope you feel that when you read his work. I hope you feel that when you read my dissertation, which is on my website and available for free if you wanna nerd out in 200 pages of clinical psychology research on relationship anarchy, and with every conversation that we have in this space, I hope you feel and know that there are pleasure activists around the world [00:03:00] practicing relationship anarchy.

And you, dear listener, you are a part of that movement. Ah. All right, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and resources@modernanarchypodcast.com, linked in the show notes below. And I wanna say the biggest thank you to all my Patreon supporters, you are supporting the long-term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content free and accessible to all people.

So thank you. If you wanna join the Patreon community, get exclusive access into my research and personal exploration, then you can head it over to patreon.com/modern Anarchy podcast, also linked in the show notes below. And with that, dear listener, please [00:04:00] know that I am sending you all my love, and let's tune in to today's episode.

So my first question is, how would you like to introduce yourself to the listeners?

Juan-Carlos: Mm-hmm. Uh, well, hello. Thank you for, for having me here. Uh, well, I'm, I am Juan Carlos per Cortez, uh, in Spain. We have two surnames, Perth from the father, Cortez from the mother. And I always try to use both because of, uh, the mother is obviously as important as, as the father at least,

Nicole: right?

Mm-hmm.

Juan-Carlos: So I have been, um, studying and, um, um, and, uh, living in, uh, the non monogamies, uh, collectives or, or communities, uh, for, I don't know, 15 years, uh, in the last, uh. Five or six years. We, we don't like, or at least I don't like to, to say no non monogamy [00:05:00] communities, but non-normative, non-normative communities.

So that changed a little bit here in, in, in Spain, in, I live in Valencia. Mm-hmm. We have a good, it's the third city of, third city of, uh, Spain. And we have a quite large community of

Nicole: cool

Juan-Carlos: people who likes or who identifies or who lives in a relationship panarchy way. I, I wrote a book, uh, a relationship Panarchy Occupy Intimacy that was translated into several languages.

English is, is, is the last one. So, uh, and I'm very, very, uh, happy that I had a lot of feedback with, from many people who is very, very nice. The, the feedback is always very, uh. Moving. Mm-hmm. And nice. Yes. And that's all more or less. I, I, I could speak more about, about me, but I don't think it's a, it's the idea.

Nicole: Sure. Eventually part of it. It's all the personal and the political. [00:06:00] Right. And Yes. Yeah. It's such a joy to have you on here. I was already feeling emotional just thinking about this conversation because having your book out there, it. It's real. There's some level of going through this practice. You know, you read the blog, you hear people talking about it, but there's something so tangible about having a book of all of these ideas.

And for me, you know, going through it, I was like, ah, I'm not alone. You know, I'm, I'm, there's other people doing this. And it felt so real to have a book on the topic.

Juan-Carlos: Yes. That's, that was one of the, one of the motivations of writing the book, that having something like something where you could, um, go and, uh, know that the, a lot of things were, uh, there were just like, uh, ized in a way, you know, like, like, uh, sedimented there.

And, uh, and, and you could just, uh, have that. Basis [00:07:00] on, on top of, of what, uh, of which, um, bill, uh, things and I don't know, it's something like that. Something like, uh, so that, that's the reason why it, it has a lot of, uh, history. It has a lot of, uh, research on, on the origins of the, of the movement, on of the, an anarchist political, an anarchist movement and everything.

Because we wanted, or at least I wanted to, to have something like you said real, or, or, or, or, or like a cornerstone. Ah,

Nicole: absolutely. Absolutely. And for me, as I was reading it, there was so much of it that paralleled my dissertation. So I felt like, ah, I did, I did something right, which was really enjoyable.

And I'm curious to ask you the, the really big general question of, for you, what does relationship anarchy mean?

Juan-Carlos: Uhhuh. Well, it's, uh, to describe something so, so, so [00:08:00] large, so, so, uh, so big. It's like, uh, difficult. But, uh, I think it's a, um, a way of, of seeing life, uh, because the relationship are so, so important in life.

The relationship, uh, framework, uh, changed completely. Not only what you do, also what you see, how do you interpret the, the world and, and everything. So for me it's like, um, uh, a framework. I like to say that it's a framework. It's not a set of re recipes, nothing like that. It's just a frame, uh, full of.

Options of possibilities and, uh, and, um, with very little, uh, provisions or how to say, uh, things that are for, uh, forbidden.

Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Instead of it being like a prescription of this is what you do exactly. A, B, C, D, [00:09:00] it's. From my understanding, a whole paradigm shift, which you can unpack that for a whole lifetime, but a paradigm shift that is examining power structures and how those have impacted our ability to love and intimacy and what it means to build relationships.

And so that paradigm shift of continually examining that there's no a, b, c on how to do that, right? It's not prescriptive in that way. So hence why anarchy is often, you know, described in what it's not. It is not this, it is not that, it is not this, right?

Juan-Carlos: Yes, yes, yes, yes. In fact, the original title in Spanish is, uh, uh, relationship panarchy, A Revolution from the Bonds.

Mm-hmm. By or from the links or from the, from the relationships. From not, not off, which is something, it's, uh, usually a good, a good way to start because most of the people that present, mm. Uh, present me in, in, in, in talks and in in conferences and so on. [00:10:00] They, uh, read the book fast, read the title fast, and they say Revolution of the Bonds.

And I always, uh, it's a good, a good way a would a good, um, uh, place to start because I say, uh, it's a, it's useful that this confession is not off the one, but from. I mean, uh, a revolution that, uh, that will change the world if, uh, could change the world. Because if you change how you relate, uh, then, uh, the, the whole world could start to, to go somewhere else.

No, because the typical bubbles that we build when, when we, when we relate in a conventional way, structure the world, the whole world in a, in a very, in a, in a very definite, uh, direction. Mm-hmm.

Nicole: Right? And not all cultures do this, but particularly in my context in America, the majority of people live in nuclear families, you know?

Mm-hmm. Two parent, you know, household of mono, [00:11:00] right. Just thinking about a whole different world of a different community, purely on just how we'd structure housing, like bare minimum housing, right? Mm-hmm. Like it's a whole different world when you start to think about what sort of ripples could come from this large paradigm shift of liberation.

Juan-Carlos: Exactly, yes. In, in a podcast in Spain. In Spain. Mm-hmm. The, the, some months ago somebody said that the best, and that was very, very, for me, was very interesting. The best example that she could, uh, think of, of an, uh, relationship anarchy was, I, I don't know if you remember 'cause it's an old, an old, uh, an old show, but it was the Golden Girls.

Mm-hmm. You know that. Mm-hmm. It's se a series of the eighties that were five, uh, girls with more than 60 years old. So girls was like, joke. Do you remember? It was, uh, very famous at that time and that was exactly, uh, uh, the [00:12:00] opposite to a nuclear family. Mm-hmm. And because there were a lot of, uh, um, adventures.

Uh, they had a lot of things, but they never, I mean, I. They, they never, of course, they, they never broke that plot because it was the basis of the, of the series, obviously. Yeah. But that's, that's, for me, it's, that's similar to what we have in reality when we have normativity that we cannot go out from the framework for the, uh, amor, for demonic framework, because that's how it works.

And when you are looking, when you are watching a TV series, you know that the way it works is that they will not change. Because if, if they change the format, the series goes, it's not thinkable. So yeah, in that context, your expectation is that, uh, the, the, they will not build a, a, a conventional family, for example.

They will remain there.

Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Juan-Carlos: So your expectation is that, and in reality, your [00:13:00] expectation is that people will build nuclear families, your friend, you never, you never think they will. They will be like, uh, in your network forever, because they will probably,

Nicole: right? Mm-hmm.

Juan-Carlos: Just build, build families, build nuclear bubbles.

Right?

Nicole: Right. Absolutely. And I, I love talking about media as examples of these stories, right? Because currently we're lacking. Frameworks of this narrative of what it means to live outside of the romance myth of you follow the relationship escalator. And this means that you've made it in love and relationships.

And I think that's so many of us tune inside and say, what do I want? What do I want? Forgetting that what I want is so deeply shaped by my culture. Mm-hmm. And until I can see other narratives of what's possible, I'm gonna fall into the cultural meaning making that's around me. And so we so deeply need [00:14:00] alternative stories of what is possible.

Otherwise we live in this framework of, I haven't made it yet. 'cause I don't have the wedding ring, I haven't made it yet 'cause I don't have the house with the kids or this. Right. And so we really need other stories like that to provide an alternative of what's possible to even dream of.

Juan-Carlos: Exactly, exactly.

Because the something that you don't, uh, you don't know they're imposing Yes. Is difficult to, is difficult to, uh, rebel again. Yeah. Because you're not, you're not aware that you are being, uh, I, I don't know that there's something that you should do, but you don't, you think you're choosing it.

Nicole: Yes.

Juan-Carlos: And that's, and that's, that's interesting.

In the personal, real, and the, for example, in the monogamies, non monogamies spaces, they, they talk about a lot of, about that. But, um, most of the times only, uh, um, in regard to diadic relationships, uh, I mean the, [00:15:00] on personal, um, um, I mean your, well wellbeing, things like that. No, but it's also very interesting, the systemic, um, dimension.

No, the, the more, uh, collective dimension of that, no, because, uh, it's obviously, it's nice to be able to. To see that you are being subject to, to a number of, um, of mandates. No.

Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Juan-Carlos: But it's all very, it's also very interesting to go farther and, and see what that means for the whole structure of your, of your community, of your, of your, so society, of, of the world, of finally, uh, and that's so important.

And it's also very interesting when you change something that is not, is, is not usually there in the polyamorous or or nom mono m communities, when you start to think that the solutions. Are not in the way you [00:16:00] relate, but most solutions come from the network.

Nicole: Mm.

Juan-Carlos: That's very interesting because when you see, when you read books, for example, about attachment

Nicole: mm-hmm.

Juan-Carlos: When you read books about relationship styles and so on. Mm-hmm. The solutions are always, you should be like, uh, compare, you should have comparison, you should be nonviolent communication, you should do nonviolent communication, you should do this or that. But they never say, uh, go to your network. And maybe most of the solutions are there Yeah.

Are not, are not changing you or trying to change the other person are, it is just, uh, um, being aware, but that both are, uh, are aware in the end of, of the network because there is, uh, a huge potential that we, we forget often.

Nicole: Sure. I mean yeah. The field of psychology is so white and individualistic when you go back to, to it.

Exactly. Right. Exactly. It's like Exactly. You need to work on it. You need to do this. Exactly. Not, oh, step into your [00:17:00] community and actually have these needs met and multiple people and, and pass that. It's always back into the individual, so you're right. Exactly. Even in the non-monogamy frame, it goes back to the individual, do your work, not, Hey, these systems are impacting you.

Just so you know, like these systems are making it hard to actually do any of that. Right. So I think that larger. Community focus as well as that larger systemic focus is really needed in these conversations. 'cause these systems are not set up to support us right now with this sort of style of relating.

Juan-Carlos: Mm-hmm. Exactly. That's, uh, that's so important that it's, uh, not usually, uh, um, thought, uh, in that way because, um, we live in a, in a, in a system, in a, in a, in, in a context where, uh, we see everything as, um. Something that we should, uh, improve ourselves. Uh, it's like, like, uh, do do something more [00:18:00] efforts and, um, things like that.

Uh, and even, even when we talk about how to relate to others, we talk with, uh, concepts that come from our context, like agreements. Uh, it's like the agreements, contracts, um, I, I don't know, it's transactions in the end. Mm-hmm. Because our system, our, our living capitalism is, is, uh, is, uh, all, all the time talking about transac transactions or agreements.

So I prefer, for example, in the, in that, in that sense, I prefer to, to speak about compromise, uh, about what I want, what I can do for the others, for, for the, for the network. Mm-hmm. And what, uh, what do I need from the network? What's the limits? I can, I the limits are personal for, for sure, because the limits are.

Something very important and, and shouldn't, it is not the same as, as other, other things. The limits are like, um, safety at the, in the end and things like that. So [00:19:00] it's important to work very, very carefully with them. But, uh, the rest, the, the, the what I can do, what they can do, that's, uh, something that if you look from the point of, if you don't look at it from the point of view, view of, of capitalism, of, of, of agreements, of transactions instead, and instead look at at you as, um, as a, a provider to the network and, and of compromises of things, uh, that, that you can do.

So the other persons individually, uh, are, are also, hmm. I, I can also go into that, um, more holistic concept. Uh, instead of thinking about how, how will we fix this? Uh, it's not to you and me, it's, it's, let's, let's look around, let's look at, at, at all, all of us.

Nicole: Yeah. Could you imagine, I'm just thinking about couples therapy paradigms of like, we're working on the couple, we're working on the couple versus a no, let's work on the whole [00:20:00] community.

Let's talk about that. Not just the dynamics you're having between the two of you, but what's going on outside of all of this. I think that's kind of how, even in a monogamous framework, like starting to see how all of our relationships are in such a deep network of community. And until we get that perspective, we're gonna keep suffering.

Just trying to figure out in these diads here, there's so much more to that. And I'd be curious too, in your own life, what has it meant for you to practice relationship anarchy?

Juan-Carlos: Well, I think I, I started like most people at that time, um. Uh, from, from a very simple, very basic needs of, uh, of finding new options, um, different from the classical way to relate.

And, uh, in the beginning it was like very basic. I mean, our, our, in fact, uh, the inspiration came from the USA [00:21:00] Yes. Which was the, the first, the first text in the, at the beginning of I. 15 years ago maybe, or something like that. Mm-hmm. Uh, arrived to, to us. And, uh, and from there we, I, I like to remember that a lot of people went into the, the same, through the same paths because, um, we found the same roadblocks, the same problems.

And it's, it's interesting because sometimes when you, when you follow the same path as o other people, you feel like, uh, you are not so crazy. Yeah. A little bit like, uh, there's something, something, um, rational about.

Well, I, I, I was, uh, just like, uh, following those ideas. Yeah. Non exclusivity of uh, trying to avoid the jealousy and things like that. And then we [00:22:00] started to build networks, uh, to leave, uh, the labels of, um, couple non couple or, and just, um, a friend couple or whatever. Uh, we just started to, to build something we call, uh, links or, or bonds, I dunno.

In Spanish we say bin, which is a, a word that we, uh. Try to use, which is not always the case. We try to use as a, as an alternative to relationship because the relationship looks like, sounds like romantic relationship. Uh, even if you, you don't say romantic, you say I'm in a relationship with

Nicole: Right.

Juan-Carlos: Uh, people understand that it's, uh, like a romantic relationship and, um, we, we try to use another word, but, uh, sometimes we find finally we end up, we end saying, uh, this is my, my bond when it's romantic.

Mm-hmm. And my friend when it's not so, it's difficult. Sure. 'cause, uh, it's, uh, always, uh, difficult and, um. [00:23:00] And that's, uh, that's what we, what we're trying to do. And yes, for me, it's very, very interesting. In my, in my personal life, I, I have been, I feel like, I don't know, I, I feel I learned a lot, uh, by trying and, and being success.

Successful in not affecting my, my bonds, keeping everybody, um, free of being affected by new, uh, new experiences or new things. I mean, because usually when you find, uh, uh, a new person who moves you a lot, you, I mean your, your previous, uh, bonds, uh, suffer and so on. Uh, I think I learned a lot from. Fighting that possibility.

I mean, I, I, I, and I think I, I was quite successful and, and, uh, and I have very, very long term bonds. Yeah. Changed a lot. We went this way the other way. Uh, but, uh, we're [00:24:00] never affected so as, as much as possible. Yeah. Yeah. By, by my, my new things or my new, uh, um, yeah. Relationship energies and things like that.

And that's a very, very interesting, you, you, you really feel proud when you, um, are able to keep that, uh, that what you think to keep it, uh, in the real life. And I think I, I, I've been able to do it with a lot of,

Nicole: yeah.

Juan-Carlos: Um, um, dedication.

Nicole: Yeah. A lot of hard work, I'm sure. Yeah.

Juan-Carlos: Yes. Yeah,

Nicole: I imagine that, um, when I had recorded with Jessica Fern, we had talked about new relationship energy as like a psychedelic experience of its own right.

And so you would hope that the more times you take that drug and that intense, um, experience, the more you know how to notice. The landscape of where your brain's going, right? So that you don't negatively impact all of your relationships. Of course, they're gonna be [00:25:00] affected as you bring more people in, but not hopefully negatively.

Mm-hmm. We'd hope. Mm-hmm. It would bring more of that life force and that energy to you, and then spread out to the people around you. And so the lived experience of practicing that. Mm-hmm. And I think particularly, I, I would imagine in your life it's gotten easier than from the beginning. Most of us, you know, uh, if you're growing up in the paradigms of what's considered normal, quote unquote, you know, it's monogamy, a restricted, you know, very focused energy into the dyad.

And so the second that you get out of that, you're like someone who's been. Held in a certain level, I don't wanna use negative words, but you've been restricted to a certain level. And so when you get out, you start running, you're like, oh my God. New relationship here. New relationship here. Right. And it takes a few times, you know, to kind of like ride that and be like, okay, we don't need to have that anymore.

Now that, now that I've rode that ride a few times, I feel a little more grounded. Right. [00:26:00] 

Juan-Carlos: It's the fear of missing out. No, with, with people instead of of events,

Nicole: which happens from restriction. Right. Again, if you tell the kid, you cannot have the cookie in the jar, you cannot have it. You cannot have it. They never get to have it.

When they do, they're gonna get a stomach ache. 'cause they're going to eat on it. Exactly. Go so much, you know. Yes,

Juan-Carlos: yes, yes. And in, in this case, you, you, you give a stomach ache to many people, which is worse. Exactly.

Nicole: Yeah. Hard to say. But I imagine too, it's, um, starting out many years ago without a lot of examples of this.

Mm-hmm. I imagine, I mean, I think when we look historically, there are examples of this, right. But in our modern day context mm-hmm. I'm sure it was difficult to kind of unpack these paradigms. I've struggled with this a ton myself to really see a different world. So I'm sure there was a lot of, hmm. Of the gears to really see a new paradigm.

Juan-Carlos: [00:27:00] Yes, yes, it was, it was, uh, it was interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Because, because the old paras or the, the old examples or the classical examples of the last mm-hmm. Uh, cen last decades or last century sixties, or for example, the hippies, the sixties, things like that, uh, were. Like, um, we're not good examples, in fact, because they, they lacked a number of basic elements that, uh, that we have now.

Like, uh, feminism for example, uh, like the intersectionality, I mean power, power relationship, power structures. Mm-hmm. Uh, we have, uh, the queer theory that, uh, is, uh, all the time like, um, doing a criticism of, of essentialism, of, uh, that we are different things like that. A lot of tools that, uh, that help us, uh, now that we, they didn't have before.

And so the examples were not [00:28:00] really so, so good. Yeah. So we were like confused at the beginning. Um, fortunately, feminist was, at least in my context, was very, very prevalent in, in these new communities. The people were, were, had a, a, a very, very strong gender perspective. Mm-hmm. So, and, and also other power structures or like, uh, I mean, racialization and poor, uh, I mean the structure of, uh, rich, richest and poor, uh, and also of xenophobia, things like that.

Uh, where, where, where, in our fights, in a way, uh, uh, here, it, it was exactly at the, at the same time as the, in, in, in USA, I think it was Occupy Wall Street. Mm. The, at that time here, it was the. Something that came from France who, because like Indo, which means, uh, like, um, I dunno, uh, [00:29:00] uh, in, in English. But it, it was like very similar to, it's like, it was like, uh, occupy the Parliament in this case.

It like that, no. Mm-hmm. That were like very powerful, uh, popular movements. Also in, in the north of Africa, it was the. The Arab, uh, spring, things like that. A lot of movement in, in, at the beginning of the, of the second decade of the 20th century of, I mean last, last decade. Yeah. Uh, the beginning of last decade.

And, uh, and that was very useful because we had a lot of ality, uh, intersectionality ideas in on feminism. The queer theory. I, I mean, uh, also the li the, it was very important, the, the, that the fight that the, um, the GBT plus, uh, fight

Nicole: mm-hmm.

Juan-Carlos: Had reached, uh, higher levels of, uh, of success.

Nicole: Yeah.

Juan-Carlos: With a lot of tools that they used, [00:30:00] uh, like appropriation of words, like, uh, normalization, like civilization, things like that, that were our inspiration in this case, at least here.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But I guess it's the same in, in the USA. And finally we found that those ideas from the north of Europe, the. The, these people from Stockholm that, uh, and, uh, and nor mm-hmm. Et cetera. And they, um, they were a huge inspiration because here we were just speaking about, also about anarchism in, in terms that were not the classical political archist.

We were talking about anti-globalization. We were talking about, uh, for example, an animalism. Um, the, the, the, the be the GaN fight as well, the well anti-globalization, as well as, as I said, uh, things like, um, ecology, ecologies, uh, all, all those are like, uh, uh, inherit, inheriting a [00:31:00] lot of, uh, aspects from anarchism.

Yeah. But, uh, with a different, uh, with a more, um, focused and more lifestyle, uh, uh, implications.

Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. It's really exciting to stand on the shoulders of giants. When, yes. I look back to, you know, just a hundred years ago, I think about Margaret Sanger being arrested for talking about contraception.

You know, like Exactly. Let alone, yeah. Any other liberation of, of the women's movement since the seventies that has occurred, let alone the queer movement. So for me to come into this space as a queer woman and talk about any of this, I mm-hmm. I, I deeply hold all of the lineage that it's taken to even get to this point, and then get really excited about the future generations.

Right? Like, we're having this conversation, I can't even imagine in another 50 years where are collective is gonna be running as we're kind of, you know, sitting at the forefront of these conversations and really asking [00:32:00] these questions. I mean, God, they're gonna pick up the torch and run in ways that we could never even imagined.

Juan-Carlos: Sure, sure. Yes, yes, yes. It's a, it's a very interesting, and, and, and that's something that we couldn't, uh. We thought we were only like, uh, exploring new options for our private life and, uh, a lot of things, uh, came together.

Nicole: Yeah.

Juan-Carlos: To go much, much farther than we could imagine at, at that time.

Nicole: Right. I know, and I've gotten some people who question, oh, well they tried that in the sixties.

What makes you think it's, it's more prevalent now? And I mean, the internet. It changed everything. Everything. Yeah. Yeah. You don't have to have a hippie friend to introduce you to the community. You can now Exactly. Go and listen to a podcast. You can listen to so many different things, and so it's spreading at such a radical rate now that we have something like the internet, let alone even the internet, to keep more [00:33:00] bonds and connections.

Right. In more expansive ways now than, you know, when you had a pen pal and you could write a letter every once a, you know, like now you can FaceTime a Comet partner or a long distance partner. I mean, the way that we are relating is just so radically changed by the internet now.

Juan-Carlos: Mm-hmm. Yes, yes, yes.

That's a, a huge tool that we can use for, that we can use for emancipation and then some people can use to, to, to avoid it. So it's like a fight again.

Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. I'm curious, what do you think people get wrong about relationship anarchy? The misconceptions?

Juan-Carlos: Mm-hmm. A lot of things. Uh, one of the most, um.

Prevalent is probably, they ask me a lot, uh, that they cannot, it's difficult for them to avoid hierarchies in the sense of avoid that one [00:34:00] person I like much more this person for, I don't know, for intimacy. This person, for, for, for the cinema, I dunno. For whatever I know. Um, and they, it's difficult for me to, to balance all this.

And, and I always say, no, no, you don't have to balance anything. Right. You could, of course you could, you could like one person or you could, you could want to spend, um, 100 times more, uh, time with one person than with the other. Uh, you don't have to balance that. Uh, the only hierarchy that, that is like a little bit, uh, uh, out of the context is the hierarchy related to authority.

Or hierarchies are not really, hierarchies are preferences are like, uh, the energy you have or the, that's, that's fine. Don't, don't try to balance anything. Don't try to restrict your, your desires to control, your desires, uh, in the sense of, uh, of balancing [00:35:00] everything. No, no authority is, uh, is the only thing that you should or should, it's not a good word in this context, but that, uh, that it, it, it'll be, it'll be not in the, in the, in this framework if you give authority, more authority to one person than the other.

Yeah. That's the only hierarchy that, uh, uh, anarchism is talking about. Not, uh, don't, is not talking about, uh, anything else like, I don't know, intimacy or, or, or, or, uh, I don't know. Any, any, any other attribute that, that you feel or emotion that you feel, or, uh. No, it's only authority. What's, uh, what has to be, um, that, that anarchist has to do, uh, with.

Mm-hmm. That's one of the things that I, I, I, I, I, I think, and the other, uh, another one is, uh, when they, when they say that is very similar to polyamory, for [00:36:00] example, because I always answer that in, in some axis of description is basically the opposite. Because instead of, uh, building larger, uh, bubbles, uh, the idea here is to, to avoid levels.

So it's like 1, 1, 1 option is like making, making the typical nuclear family larger. And, uh, uh, the idea here is to punch that bubble and say, no, we are networks. And the network has have no clear borders. Of course, there are people who you are not interested in, and they are out of your network or very, very marginally in your network.

But, uh, that's, and, and other people think that are not, uh, differentiating the co be between network, uh, network and, uh, a community. I mean, you don't have to live, uh, or to have any pre, um, I mean [00:37:00] presence, uh, of, of all, all the network together. It's, it's not about making, which is fine. I mean, it's, it's great if you have a, uh, for example, a, a coli, uh, or a community that you, that you share a lot of presidential thing.

No, I mean, uh, factual things, uh, together. But the idea here is. To build networks that from, from the, from the bottom of, of the society, eh, uh, app. Uh, yeah. And, uh, they don't have to, to be like, uh, all together at the same time or have mm-hmm. Projects together. It's not like they're all, they're all hippie.

Uh,

Nicole: yeah.

Juan-Carlos: Uh, I don't know, in English communes or something like that. Yeah, no, the, the word, uh, and, um, it, which is perfect, which is nice, which is, uh, uh, there's nothing against that. But it, it's not, uh, it's not necessary. You can build networks in a very different way because Yeah. Uh, it's, uh, it's, um, [00:38:00] perfect to, to do this or that.

Both things are, but the ba basic idea is to build networks that permeate the, the society. Right. Uh, and changing that, that way it's just changing the, the, the shape of our, of, of our relationships.

Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. As you were talking, I was thinking about the, the binary of its monogamy or non-monogamy.

Right. You are either monogamous or non-monogamous, and that binary is inherently based on the question of romantic and sexual exclusivity. Exactly. And I feel like relationship anarchists say, well, what if we don't put that as the center stone of defining our whole relationship life, you know? Exactly.

Let's take that out. And then I think when you, when you are a relationship, anarchist, maybe. You do wanna have sex with one person and you practice sexual fidelity, right?

Juan-Carlos: Mm-hmm. Great. So with no per or with no person. Yeah. Or [00:39:00] celibacy. Right? A sexual, yes. Yeah. Or sexual. Our sexuals are, our sexuals are, are, are some, one of the, one of the collective that, uh, that contributed with more, with, with a, with a credible insight.

Mm-hmm. Into, into, into these concepts because Yeah. They are, uh, uh, incredibly oppressed by normativity. Yeah. It's, uh, they, they cannot have, uh, deep relationships. Yeah. If, uh, a relationship always entails, um, one or more, I mean poly or not poly, uh, people sharing all of the attributes of, of, of, uh, amateur normativity.

Nicole: Yeah.

Juan-Carlos: Mm-hmm.

Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah.

Juan-Carlos: It's completely, and, uh, yes. Sorry, sorry, sorry. No, it's because, uh, you said the word romantic. I used to use, use it a lot, but, uh, it's also interesting to think that maybe we are, um, I don't know in English to leaving [00:40:00] that word, uh, I mean, um, like, um, abandoning that word. Yeah. Uh, giving up, giving up that word.

And maybe we should, uh, we should re uh, reappropriate it. I mean, uh, one, one, a friend here that wrote one of the, of the best books about polyamory here in Spain, uh, I think it's also translated, but I don't know if to English. Okay. Yeah. Um, she speaks about. Uh, I mean, she said No. Romantic is nice. Yeah.

Romantic is candle candles. Romantic is flowers. Romantic is carrying of each other. I don't know. It's, uh, music. Mm-hmm. Uh, it's nice. Don't, uh, let's keep it for our, for us. Don't, don't, don't give up that word. And they say that, uh, instead of romantic, she speaks about Disney relationships.

Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Juan-Carlos: So, so we, we, what we don't want is Disney Really?

Because Disney is like the, the paradigm of of, of the, of the [00:41:00] normativity. No, the, the, the, you, you talked at the beginning about media.

Nicole: Yeah.

Juan-Carlos: This is this name made Right. The, the, the idea of many of us, no, the mm-hmm. Build the idea of, of

Nicole: Yeah.

Juan-Carlos: How it works. Mm-hmm. So it's, uh, it's also important to think if we want to live, to give up the, the, the word romantic or, or we, we should.

Keep using it.

Nicole: Yeah, I definitely do. I, I just don't draw the lines of whether I'm doing it with someone I'm having sex with or not. Right? Mm-hmm. Like, this is something I do with many people. You're, you're right. Like these, these acts of adoration, right? Mm-hmm. And that doesn't have to be defined about who I'm sleeping with, right.

So, exactly. So all of that scene that in a more expansive way, I think gives me hope. 'cause I have, I am such a romantic and I've always loved that. Right? Who doesn't love getting flowers? Who doesn't love getting that handwritten note? It's the expansiveness of doing that with your whole community. Right.

And I, I really [00:42:00] appreciated what you had named about the hierarchy of authority. Oof. Mm-hmm. This is such an important conversation because I think when I was first starting in relationship anarchy, that was something that I was so confused about where I was like. Okay. I give 25% here. 25 here, 25. How do I do the math?

You know, and it doesn't, you can't, you can't do it like that. And, and even if you did, you know, like think about your whole community, right? A functioning community in, in my thought apparently, you know, would be that you have some relationships that you see more commonly. Some you maybe see only in a community space.

Mm-hmm. Some you see even more in longevity of years, you know, like a full community. Mm-hmm. And if you tried to math all of that equally, you wouldn't, you couldn't.

Juan-Carlos: Mm-hmm. Possibly people, people that are away, for example, as well. Mm-hmm. You can have, you can have bonds that are, uh, yeah. Far away and, and they are.

Mm-hmm. So [00:43:00] important In a way, it's, uh, the, something that is very interesting is that we know how to do it because we have the concept of friendships, friendship, friendship. Right. And, and we know, we, we, we do it well with friends. We did well. We don't, we don't have to learn something new. We have, just to avoid, I know having exactly, having, avoid having that Disney thing, uh, occupying a place that the friendships cannot invade.

I mean, on the top, I mean those, those Disney, romantic or whatever, uh, relationships, I mean, classical relationships, um, couple, couple relationships are occupying a place and are avoiding that. The rest of our real network that we already have, uh, goes that high, not that high. Uh, it's a, it's a, the place that, um, I mean we could learn in the end to.

To, to give, uh, to what now we call friendship, all the power that [00:44:00] we are giving to what now we call couple. Yep. That would be, that would be a very simple way to, to change a lot things. Yeah. Because we know how to do it,

Nicole: right.

Juan-Carlos: We know how to, how to relate to, to friends.

Nicole: I know. Uh,

Juan-Carlos: but we put that like limits.

We put boundaries because this is friendship. This is not this, this is that. No. Let, let's forget about prescriptive labels, uh, boundaries. Uh, and, and that's build the networks with all the potential that we now only give to couple. To the couple. Yeah.

Nicole: Absolutely. I know I've always tried to fall back on, okay, how do I do this in my friendships?

And then that being, you know, a clear sort of example, right. I have exactly a, mm-hmm. Complex mattering of different friendships that I see in different amounts of intensity. Mm-hmm. Different amounts of emotional intimacy. But I don't look at my friendships and say, you can't have any others. This is how I find security is by [00:45:00] that control.

No, I find security Exactly. And who I am and the relationships that we've built. And so it's so clear there. And then this is why I talk about sex. All the time because somewhere in the mil Lou of what sex means, we have such deep cultural scripts and narratives mm-hmm. Of what it means to do that with someone and expectations.

It is deep. And I mean, I think when we, we look back to historically, you know, sex being this act that, you know, prior to contraception would give life. You can just imagine the, the spiritual religious frameworks that started mm-hmm. Around this deeply important thing. Yes. But now we're still trying to get out of, oh, sex doesn't have to be about life.

Sex can be about pleasure. Right. All these different ways. And so, but we still have such deep cultural scripts, particularly around religions that have colonized the world. Let's be clear. 'cause there were other Yes. Religious structures that weren't as, you know, mono couple [00:46:00] focused. Mm-hmm. But so we're deconstructing the ways that those colonizer religions have impacted all of us.

And in that it's like mm-hmm. Classical conditioning. Classical condition is so deep in my body and my soul. And so every day I'm having to unpack the ways that that exist in ways I don't even recognize. Mm-hmm.

Juan-Carlos: Yes, I'm absolutely agree. I I, I agree completely because, uh, that's what we all feel in the, in, in inside.

That, that, that conditioning and that construction of, of us as, as, as beings, as, as human beings, we, we, we are, we have to really deconstruct in the sense, uh, the, the word deconstruction is usually used in a very light way. The construction is something very difficult. Yeah. What's, uh. What's, uh, our, our ourself and what's, [00:47:00] uh, our, what, what we learned, which is 90.9999%.

Nicole: Yeah, totally.

Juan-Carlos: And that's, uh, that's a very hard, uh, very hard, uh, exercise that, but very interesting exercise as well,

Nicole: right? Yeah. And as a therapist, if I'm working with a woman who's much, who's older, right? I do have to hold the cultural context. If she says, oh, I can't make this decision without going to my husband first in ways where if I'm working with a teenager who's a woman or a, you know, a growing up into her womanhood, she might say, what, of course I'm gonna make this decision on my own, but I have to hold that cultural context of the paradigm, right?

And same thing for queerness, right? Another example of liberation, someone much older is, has gone through paradigms of such deep restriction. And so the idea of being queer is so. Much more difficult to even tap into When we look at the data, the amount of people who are identifying [00:48:00] queer now that are young, it is blowing up.

Okay. Exactly. And so when I talk to someone who's much older, they say, I couldn't even fathom. There's no way that's so wrong. Right. But then you look at people who are young and who are just thriving into this because of all the liberation work that is done. They're not even going through the same levels of shame and difficulty.

Mm-hmm. And so I think this is another level of this here, right? Where we are unpacking this right now of what it means to unpack this classical conditioning and the shame. But again, future generations are gonna be running into this space at our age and going, why were you guys struggling? And we'll be like, ah, exactly,

Juan-Carlos: exactly.

Nicole: You didn't understand. It wasn't cool back then.

Juan-Carlos: Yes. That's, that's the, the future is, is going to be so different. I, I envy a lot. No, I know. The s now that they, they, they have. They, they, they can, they can do things so differently.

Nicole: Mm-hmm. Exactly. Exactly. Mm-hmm. And [00:49:00] for me too, in terms of like the, the hierarchy, I've been loving talking about my network as, as orbits like a solar system.

Right. And, and, and holding the complexity of, yeah. Some planets orbit me at a much closer rate. So maybe this is the closest orbiting partner I have that I talk to every day. Or, um, and then I have another partner maybe I see every other day, and then these other partners that orbit at a much wider rate and then a holding the nuance of, of that orbit and the gravity that it can have on me and my life mm-hmm.

In a way that understands the importance of that. Right. Like there's different gravity based on those planets of how far out to go. Um, but there's not a hierarchy of authority, right. Where this one planet gets power Exactly. Over the other, but, but the reality is I do see this person more often.

Juan-Carlos: Mm-hmm.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. And the equations are probably equally diff difficult, uh, gravity. Yeah. Orbits. I gotta talk to a physicist.

Nicole: Someone [00:50:00] come, come talk to me. Yeah.

Juan-Carlos: And the three body, the three body problem. Yeah. The chaotic. And there's, there's a very, very beautiful, I think, uh, concept that I like a lot. Uh, it's, uh, uh, comet relationships.

Nicole: Yeah.

Juan-Carlos: Yep. Exactly. Uh, that, that, that they come and go and you never know when they will be back for, for a while, for a few days or whatever. And that's like a very romantic concept, in fact, in the sense Absolutely.

Nicole: Historically. Yep. Exactly.

Juan-Carlos: Historically.

Nicole: Exactly. Exactly. And I think that that's part of the, the journey as people who are in this space, like the, the creating of language.

I. To describe this. Mm-hmm. Right. Until we have language to describe, which I know we do so clearly with friendships, so I think going there is a great example, but creating more language for us to be able to describe the worlds that we're building that changes our whole psychological process of what we can dream.

And so, you [00:51:00] know, even like that word compersion, right? Mm-hmm. All these different ways that we're grasping for new language to describe this. Again, I think that is also gonna move the movement forward, the more we can have language to describe these various things.

Juan-Carlos: Mm-hmm. Yes, yes, yes, yes. That's, uh, that's important.

And it's, uh, it's also collective, uh, thing. Right? And also trans collective in the sense that we borrow a lot of words from the, from the right, from feminism, from the queer, uh, fight or the, the, the, the rights, the L-G-L-G-T-B. Rights fight even from the, the trans, uh, the trans, uh, revolution as well. Know the

Nicole: mm-hmm.

Juan-Carlos: The, um, the, and from, from other, from other places. Also, like, for example, the globalization, things like that. We borrow a lot of words, and, and we, we, we, there's an exchange in, in those fights. Uh, which are, um, very, very interesting. And from the, for example, from the black [00:52:00] feminism, uh, of the sixties or se seventies, thirties, we, we, we got a lot of, uh, of concepts.

It's very important as well to, to understand that these shouldn't be, I, I think a thought that these, um, like, um, built by individual, right. Um, um, contributions, it's very, very, very collective as well. We learn, uh, like talking, like now we learn by meeting, uh mm-hmm. And those meetings that, uh, I, in fact, uh, one of the most interesting parts of, uh, of the, of this is, uh, is the how we build, uh, these tools of, of, of meeting, of, uh, I mean it's, it's very nice.

I, I I'm, I want to go to, to, for example, to the USA to some of the, those meetings you have there. That's something I, I, I want to do and, uh mm-hmm. Because in Europe we have probably different style, but it's very interesting to [00:53:00] to know. Yes.

Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. I, um, I did my dissertation with qualitative interviews, so I was getting data from multiple relationship anarchist, and then I have now taken that format onto the podcast where it's an open call to anybody in the world who wants to come in and have that conversation.

And then being able to release those out into the world. It's been so transformative for me because. You know, I had an idea of relationship anarchy and then I, I sit and we co-collaborate like we're doing here, and then we continue to move this collective movement together that has no end right? There's no end to dismantling the ways these systems have impacted our power, uh, our ability to access pleasure.

I know that we'll die one day still unpacking this question as a collective, and so it's been so exciting to have this sort of space where I could bring people on or to have conferences like you're saying, where you can really pick up the conversation in a collective. [00:54:00] To define mm-hmm. What relationship anarchy means.

Juan-Carlos: Yes, yes, yes, yes. I, I was in Chile last, uh, the other month, I mean, in mm-hmm. The last year. And it was also very interesting with people coming from all the, all over the world. Yeah. It's, it's very interesting. It's difficult, uh, because it's far the distances. Sure.

Nicole: Yeah.

Juan-Carlos: But it's very nice. Mm-hmm. By the way, you, um, there's something that, uh, I, I always say that, uh, I don't know if it's, um, quite, um, there's consensus about that, but I don't, I never used the word because you used it.

I never use the, the word relationship anarchist. Mm. I mean, uh, because I, in some way, I think it's like, uh, using relationship anarchy as an identity, it can be interesting. Like all identities can be interesting as a, as an eman emancipatory tool.

Nicole: Yeah.

Juan-Carlos: I [00:55:00] mean, if we need to build a relationship anarchist, um, identity like, uh, um, political subject, right?

To ask for rights or for to fight for rights, things like that. Obviously it's, uh, it's interesting. It's important if you don't have a, a label, you don't have a, the way to, to ask for things, to fight for things. But in the end, it's a label and it's labeled in the, in the sense of identity. And, uh, I, I think identity, uh, is d is difficult to, to mix with, with the ideas of relationship hierarchy.

Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Juan-Carlos: So, because, uh, it's always. It's always like, I am this and you are not this. And I think it closes a little bit. So I always, uh, I always try to, it's a little, a little bit longer, but when I, they ask me, I, I say, no, I'm not a relationship anarchist because I don't like the

Nicole: mm-hmm.

Juan-Carlos: The label.

Nicole: Yeah.

Juan-Carlos: Uh, uh, I, I like relationship anarchy or I practice or, or, or try or try to [00:56:00] or see it as a European horizon, things like that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a, a little bit longer, but it's something that I, for me, it's, it's. I, it's like I, I, I am rebel comes against, against that, that, uh, that sense of identity.

Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Juan-Carlos: Uh, and maybe it's more because of personal, um, experiences. When somebody tells me I am a relationship anarchist, it's a red flag for me.

No, not exactly a red flag because it's sometimes it's just, it's just, uh, it's just a way of, uh, speaking of talking nothing else. Sure. But sometimes when, when, when it's said in a very almost authoritative way. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It's, for me, it's like, Hmm. I, no, it's like, I don't dunno, Rick, it looks like Sure.

Nicole: Yeah.

Juan-Carlos: I dunno. I, I, but, uh, it's not something [00:57:00] that I'm, it just probably, uh, I reflect that I, I have in my. Because identity, uh, it's, uh, always against something.

Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Juan-Carlos: I mean, if you are relationship anarchy, anarchist, it's, it's because some people are not. Right. I, I don't know if I want to, to be in the, in, um, giving, uh, identity cards for archist or Sure.

Or belts, belts of colors. No, like yellow belt. Yeah.

Nicole: Hard to say. How do you, how do you balance that with this question of if you're a relationship anarchist, then there's something, someone who's not, when that is true. Like, there are people who believe that I should have one lover and that's the most important thing in my life, and that's where I'm gonna spend all my resources and do that.

So I, I think that's interesting. Like the, the bifurcation does exist in some ways. So I'm curious, how do [00:58:00] you, how do you balance that reality with that, that value choice that you were just speaking to?

Juan-Carlos: Yeah, it's, it's true that, uh, that if you want to differentiate. One of the main, um, strengths of relationship anarchy is trying to avoid, uh, that those, um, that labeling, that, that binary, that dichotomy, right.

Those dichotomies. Right. But, but of course, you're right. And, and sometimes if you really want to, to demand something or to explain something very clearly, or, or, yeah. When, when, when it's needed. I think obviously it's, it's legitimate. Yeah. But, um, it's like something that I just don't like. It happened also with, with a, with a queer, with a queer fight, with the fights of, uh, for the rights of, of gay men, for example, in the end, in, uh, at some point, it's changing now, but at some point the gay identity was so, so, uh, uh, so strong that even bisexual people were discriminated.

Right. [00:59:00] The, it's it's like going, going to the, to the extreme of identity. Yeah. Um Right. For identity. Sure. And that, that was very important. Very, a very good tool. Very, very interesting tool. And, uh, um, it was, um, part of the fight. Very, very, but, and in the end, when you. If it remains there as a right, as a so strong, um, yeah.

Trait, then it can, it, it can turn against you. Totally. It's like totally. We are this tribe. Yeah. And we're not. Right. Right. So like that.

Nicole: Yeah, absolutely.

Juan-Carlos: Yeah. I think when I, it's like a, like a sect. No sect. You say anything. Totally.

Nicole: Sure. Yeah, exactly. Or Yeah, totally. And I think when I meet people in my, my personal life, I don't start off with like, hi, I'm Nicole, I'm a relationship anarchist, because that feels kind of weird, right?

Like, I would hope that you see that in how I interact with you and the way that I construct my world, rather than having to name it. [01:00:00] And, and when I talk about relationship anarchy or being a relationship anarchist, I, I want it to be as expansive as the, the definition of. Dismantling power structures. So again, if that means you practice monogamy and sexual fidelity, you are here.

If that means you're asexual, you are here. If that means you practice polyamory, you're here, it's about mm-hmm. Whether you're taking that, that critical lens to the power structures and like we started the conversation out with, there's no pre prescriptive way to do that. And so then the expansiveness of, of we all can be here in all of our different ways.

Exactly. Exactly. Um, and so living into that, yeah.

Juan-Carlos: Yes, yes. Because people sometimes demand.

Do you explain what's your relationship with somebody? Are you a couple? And, and you say, I mean, they, they sometimes it's very, very, like, very demanding. They, they want to know if, uh, if you, if if they find you with somebody else, some somewhere in a, in a party or wherever, they want to know if you are a couple or not.

And they are not [01:01:00] satisfied with any explanation that is not one hour long. So, so it it's the same, I I don't want to say I'm a relationship anarchist as a, as, as a label. Mm-hmm. If they want to know, they have to take a coffee with me with two hours list. Right. And they'll know how I relate Exactly. What, how is my network and so on.

Mm-hmm. I, I, I resist to answering with one word or two words. Um, because, uh, we, with, with with friends, it's the same. I what are you? Uh, we, we, we, we are not anything. We are good people. That's what we're.

Nicole: I'm a human being. Is that enough for you? Exactly. Absolutely. Yes. That's so important. And I've definitely met relationship anarchist.

Right. Who use that label and then say, I have no commitments, no one has power over me. Me, exactly. Me. And then I say, wow, okay. Those two, two words mean very different things to you and I. Exactly,

Juan-Carlos: exactly.

Nicole: That's different journeys. [01:02:00] Yeah,

Juan-Carlos: sure, sure. Yeah. Commitment is something where, uh, I, I said before, I, I, I think I used the word compromise, which is in Spanish is compromise, but in, in English, it's commitment.

Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Juan-Carlos: Uh, it's, uh, I, I, I used the wrong word in English. Uh, it's commitment. I mean, uh, relationship arch is based on commitment and people think it's, uh, not commitment. So it it's completely the opposite. Yeah. Yeah. It happens also with political anarchism. They, people think that right. Political, that anarchism is, is like disorder when the, uh, anarchist society or group or whatever is the highest, um, the highest expression of order because it's, it's an order that is not, uh, based on authority.

So it's the most difficult way to reach Yeah. Uh, uh, what's called, uh, order in the sense of, uh, of, of doing things well, uh, right. Surviving. Right. And, and, and being, being, [01:03:00] being happy.

Nicole: Yeah.

Juan-Carlos: Successful, et cetera. So it needs, uh, a kind of commitment that is so complex and important and, and, and in this case, it's the same.

Commitment is the basis, and people think it, it's, uh, the opposite.

Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it takes hours of conversation

Juan-Carlos: is usually what

Nicole: it is, right? When you have that whole, you know, when you get off the relationship escalator, when you're no longer going on these patterns, we're now looking at a blank canvas.

It's no longer the paint by numbers, clear outline, color in the lines. We have a. Blink canvas of how we're gonna relate. And so it takes time to co-create that, that canvas, that art structure, that beautiful love of romance with multiple people, right? And so, mm-hmm. Yes. There's so much commitment in that and so much conversation and, and dare I say, emotional maturity, like in terms of relationship structures, this takes a lot to do with high levels of these skills.

That [01:04:00] was one of the deepest things I think I wanna pin into the field of psychology that has such judgment in terms of attachment towards anything that's not the normative paradigm of monogamy. It's like, have you seen the level of conversation and insight it takes to do anything else?

Juan-Carlos: Exactly. It's a And they, they say immature to to to that.

Right, which is completely opposite.

Nicole: Oh, I know. It breaks my heart. And I think, uh, going through the field myself, I remember one professor who specifically told me, non-monogamy never works. Right. Let alone relationship empathy, but non-monogamy never works. You know? Mm-hmm. I've always see it like this. And, and, and people forgetting the bias of their therapy room.

People are coming to the therapy room with struggles. You're not seeing the polyamorous couple, you know, the polyamorous family that's having a beautiful community event together. They're not showing up in your therapy office doctor, blah, blah, blah. Of course, of course, senior [01:05:00] perspective is so warped.

You don't even see That's a biased. Yes,

Juan-Carlos: yes, yes. It's true. It's true. It's, uh, awful.

Nicole: Yeah, it is awful.

Juan-Carlos: When they say that and when, when they say, when they say that you are in a face. I always think that I should, uh, I should answer that. Uh, I'm not in a phase, I'm in a I I'm just leaving. Uh, maybe you are in a phase with your wife or with your husband, probabilistically,

you're in a phase more clearly.

Nicole: Totally, totally. Statist.

Juan-Carlos: Statistically. Statistically, yeah.

Nicole: 50% of those are gonna be a phase that ends. Right. Exactly. That's your science. Yeah, I know. I know. And, and in that my, my. Political activism is staying in my pleasure, right? Mm-hmm. I say what I do and people, that's crazy. How do you do? [01:06:00] I'm just doing my thing.

You don't, you know what? If my joy makes you uncomfortable, maybe you should that for yourself. I don't care what you do. I'm gonna keep having fun over here, so just, just please leave me alone.

Juan-Carlos: Happiness is revolutionary. It's pleasure. That's, that's, that's a great sentence.

Nicole: Absolutely. My pleasure is my activism. And, you know, that exactly reminds me of queer activism too. Of like what it means to live into the pleasure when the paradigms have been so negative. Right. And the pain. Exactly. Which is real.

And it, it is hard to do these relationship structures, but to also trust that your pleasure is radical. Your pleasure is changing the paradigm when people see you thriving in your expansive orbits and your comet partners and all these people, you know, it makes people uncomfortable and good. Mm-hmm. I hope they examine where that resonates for themselves and where it makes them feel uncomfortable.

'cause that's a [01:07:00] long journey ahead, you know? Yeah. That's

Juan-Carlos: great. Yes. Yes.

Nicole: Yeah. Mm-hmm. I want you to take a moment to. Connect with your younger self. When you were first hearing about relationship anarchy and starting to connect with this value system, I'd be curious what words of wisdom you would share with your younger self.

Juan-Carlos: That's interesting. Uh, well, I, I, I could say that, uh, something like, go on. You're on the right. You're on the right path. Yes. Uh, don't, don't hurry up because it's not, it's not, uh, something for a day, uh, right. It's just, it's just a matter of, uh, digging and digging and. But, uh, but you are on the right path.

And then also don't, um, [01:08:00] uh, look, uh, I, I mean, look, look around. Look to the, the other people. Try to go in your way because context is important, uh, but, uh, not far from the others. I mean, keeping eye contact with, with your network and with a very, very wide network of people that, and, uh, never think that your, uh, that you are going to discover anything by yourself.

Nicole: Yeah.

Juan-Carlos: Uh, it's a collective endeavor. And, um, but keep going. Don't, don't stop because, uh, because you are, you are on the right path. Yes. Yeah.

Nicole: Yeah. That certainly resonates for me. You know, at the beginning you're like, is this right? I don't know. I don't know. And then you keep going deeper and deeper into the paradigm and saying, yes, yes.

Um, and read a lot.

Juan-Carlos: No, read a lot. Yeah. Read a lot. Yes.

Nicole: Read a lot. Get in community. Right? It's the community. Mm-hmm. The culture, again, that shapes our paradigms of what's [01:09:00] possible, who we are, identity. All of that is shaped our cultural context. So then being intentional about surrounding yourself with people who are in the same paradigm, right.

So that you can dream and have different possibilities there. And, um, one of my, uh, therapists, you know, a client had mentioned that they wanted to practice non-monogamy when it felt easier. I know. And I was like, that's a really interesting way. I, I mean, I, a good metaphor for me I was thinking about is, is like saying, oh, I wanna run the marathon when it's easier.

Okay, it's gonna get easier. But when you first start with that walk and then that one mile jog and then that 10 mile and you keep going. Yes. You know? And that also means don't run when you have a broken foot. Don't run when you know you have the flu. Right. If you're in a dynamic in your relationships and it's already chaotic, you know, the complexities of that.

But these, these paradigms of non-monogamy and relationship anarchy, like [01:10:00] it takes active discomfort like starting that first mile of the marathon, right? But once you've been running it, the more you get there, the more that you have that, that lung capacity to start breathing into it and enjoying it. But God, that first mile is intense when you first start running.

Juan-Carlos: Yes. Yes. It's going to be, but it's true that now, for example, I see that, uh, it's easier. Yes. Because for some people, I, I, I always make the joke like saying very bad words to them. Like when, when, when they, when they, when they say, no, no, no, I only, I only. Build relationships with people already in the community.

Mm-hmm. And they say son of, uh, yeah, whatever. Uh, now you have people in the community, but what happened? But when we were there, there were, there was no community. Right.

You, you, you had to, you had to be. Relationships with [01:11:00] people because there was no community. Yeah. So, uh, now you are very lucky. You don't know how lucky you are now, but you can say that, which I don't know if I'm, I agree with or not.

I mean, maybe it's good also to, to try to build relationships with people in, in independently of, if they already are right now or not, I don't know. May maybe it's easier. Of course it's easier with people that, uh, already know, uh, what's going on. The words. Yeah. Yeah. They read, they read some things and that's easier.

Right. I don't know if, if, if it's good to, to keep, uh, in that end, I dunno. But, uh, but you are so lucky you don't know how lucky you're that. You can't say that. You couldn't say that before because there was no community. Absolutely.

Nicole: Absolutely. I've enjoyed having like a balance. Like I have enough of a community that is here so that I feel seen and held.

Mm-hmm. And also other relationships. Or other friends and other [01:12:00] relationships mm-hmm. That practice different orientations because diversity is helpful to get outside of the echo chamber of, of your, one way of looking at the world or, or even my family, my mom is Mormon, right? So like even more in a religious structure.

And so I always get a lot of perspective in that relationship of my practice, of relationship anarchy. And I think that that's really important to not lose sight of the diversity of ways that people do this.

Juan-Carlos: Yeah. And, and even expand the relationships to non-human things like work, like studies, like your, your PhD or whatever.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's, it's an, it's another relationship. You, sometimes you give au author authority to things. Yes. And that's, uh, something, uh, that you should at least recognize at least, yeah. Put in, in the same context. Yeah. Because, uh, because it's, um, authority in the end.

Nicole: Yeah. I, I don't practice hierarchy of authority, but I've certainly joked that this podcast is my primary [01:13:00] partner.

If I have one. It's this podcast.

Juan-Carlos: Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. It's, uh, it's your primary.

Nicole: Yeah, it's my primary. They're able, who get put first.

Juan-Carlos: It's, it's good to have a so diverse primary, you know, it's like a luxury.

Nicole: Yeah, exactly. It's been a joy. It's been such a joy. Well, I wanna take a deep breath with you

and then check in to see if there's anything else that you wanted to share with the listeners. Otherwise I can guide us towards a closing question.

Juan-Carlos: Mm-hmm. Well, no, I, I think this was like very, very interesting. Very, we, we, we touched a lot of different, uh, aspects and I was like very, very comfortable.

Nicole: Good. I'm so glad. I'm so happy to hear that for you and for us to have made this really special conversation for the movement. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Alright, well the final question that [01:14:00] I ask every guest on the show is what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

Juan-Carlos: Hmm. That, uh, it's normal to value all relationships as we used to value, uh, the, the what we have.

Being taught that is the most valuable thing. The, the, the, the partner in life. I, I, I wish that everybody was taught that it's normal to have all our relationships, uh, occupied. That, uh, that ha. Yeah. Yes.

Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. It breaks my heart when I hear people talk about being single. I'm single. I'm single.

As if they have no other meaningful relationships. The idea of oneness, like I'm completely alone. Right. And, and the ways that that sort of narrative and perspective shapes your whole [01:15:00] paradigm that you see the world through. I'm actually single and lone. Right. I am single and so sad versus wow, maybe I don't have, quote unquote, that one person.

Again, this is all in that paradigm. Right? But you have all these other relationships. Exactly. Oh my God.

Juan-Carlos: Yeah. It breaks, it breaks my heart as well when people say, uh, she or he's only a friend. Mm.

Nicole: Yeah.

Juan-Carlos: That only, that only it's absolutely, I don't understand it.

Nicole: Yeah. Because the other side is. Feeling the fullness of what that can mean in your life.

It's like, you know, the saturation of the color. Only a friend is this like dull orange compared to the like, full saturation. I have this beautiful human right. Like,

Juan-Carlos: exactly.

Nicole: It's so different and I think that you feel way more fullness of the relationships and the love that is around you in that paradigm.

And I am all here for what sort [01:16:00] of pleasure that can bring when you have that level of intentionality to all of your relationships, including relationships to mm-hmm. The earth right. Relationships to animal like this deeper intentionality to all of this. I I do think there's more fullness in your life mm-hmm.

When you're living in that paradigm.

Juan-Carlos: Exactly. I, I would like people to, to, to find normal that we care of each other as much as, as we are taught to care about the particular person.

Nicole: Right.

Juan-Carlos: Yeah. Care, care is so important and we need so much, uh, yeah. We forget. We forget how much we need it when, when we are fine and everything is

Nicole: right,

Juan-Carlos: but when we need it, we need it so much.

Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm excited to see what future generations are gonna do with, uh, the groundwork we're laying.

Juan-Carlos: Mm-hmm. Sure. Yeah. It'll, it'll be great to see.

Nicole: Mm-hmm. Well, it's been such a joy to have you on the podcast today. [01:17:00] I really appreciate you coming on here and having this conversation with me.

Juan-Carlos: Thank you very much. It was, uh, and, and Cando

Nicole: lovely. Thank you. I'm curious for all the listeners who have really enjoyed your, your perspectives and everything you've shared here, where can they find your book to dive into more of your content? Mm-hmm.

Juan-Carlos: Yes. Well, if you look for relationship anarchy book.com Yeah, I made that, that, that website

Nicole: Smart, smart

Juan-Carlos: put everything there because now I also have a, uh, an audio book and translations, different languages people are translating to, to Portuguese.

Mm-hmm. To to German, to French, to different languages. So everything is in relationship american book.com.

Nicole: Yeah. Thank you so much,

Juan-Carlos: Uhhuh. Thank.

Nicole: If you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star [01:18:00] review wherever you listen to your podcast, and head on over to modern anarchy podcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode.

I wanna thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.