217. Relationship Anarchist: Betty

Nicole: [00:00:00] Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Betty join us for another relationship anarchy research conversation. Together we talk about releasing the scarcity narrative, the Olympics of porn, and the mythical unicorn that is relationship anarchy. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists.

From around the world. Tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration [00:01:00] therapy, and I am also the founder of The Pleasure Practice, so supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships.

Dear a listener, uh, you know, every single relationship Anarchy episode, I am always so. Honored that a listener, one of you listeners, trust me to come onto the show, to answer the questions that are on the website and to join me for a conversation. All of these episodes, you know, we get into so much of the praxis of relationship anarchy and what it means to embody these values in our relationships.

And I'm always growing and learning so much from each guest. And when y'all know about the inside jokes to the podcast or other sorts of pieces, I'm just so honored to, uh, have this space that we have together to unpack [00:02:00] these things. I'm so excited to see how many people are downloading my dissertation each day on my website.

Dear listener, if you wanna read about 200 pages of clinical psychology, nerdy, nerdy content on relationship anarchy, it's on my website for free. And so. Yeah, I am just so passionate about continuing to have these conversations with you, a dear listener. So if you are a relationship anarchist, I would love to talk to you.

I wanna know how you practice. I wanna know what relationship anarchy means to you. And so the links are in the show notes below. If you wanna take up the call, like Betty, like all of the previous relationship anarchists that have come before them, all of that is linked in the show notes below. And again, I'm just so, so delighted to have this space where we can create free resources for the movement, for all of us to grow and to learn together.[00:03:00] 

Alright, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and resources@modernanarchypodcast.com. Also linked in the show notes below. And I wanna say the biggest thank you to all my Patreon supporters. We have a new Patreon member, Dave, so I wanna say hello to Dave.

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Also linked in the show notes below. And dear listener, I also created a new segment so you don't have to be a [00:04:00] paid member of the Patreon community right now. I am also releasing journal prompts each week for each episode for all free members on Patreon, 'cause I have a lot of free members that have been signing up.

And so yeah, on there. If you are curious, each episode I post about three reflection questions. If you wanna get into deeper reflection and integration from the content that we explore each week. I know there are groups of people that have listening parties, and so these would be some great discussion prompts.

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Also linked in the show notes below. And with that. Dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all [00:05:00] my love and let's tune in to today's episode. And so the first question that I like to ask each guest on the show is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

Betty: Hi, I'm Betty. I'm from the uk. I am, uh, 46 now, and I've been experiencing and working with relationship anarchy for about three years now.

Nicole: Oh,

Betty: yeah. I've found a lot of community and wisdom and nourishment in listening to your conversations with other people.

Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Betty: And hearing, uh, hearing about your experiences and just hearing about other people's experiences, it's just been really, it's so valuable for me. Mm-hmm. And as part of the reason why I really enjoy relationship anarchy is, is community.

Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Betty: I dunno if that really introduced me, but that's, I,

Nicole: I see you. I see you. And so I'm happy to have you here. [00:06:00] Yeah. Yeah. There's something so validating about getting to hear other people's stories, especially when you are a minority culture, to be able to tap into that. And not even just written stories, but also, you know, the sound.

There's a lot of power in that. Getting to hear people talk about their lived experience and, um, the, the sound of hearing them go through their passion and their pain points and the resonance that you can feel in your own life With that, I mean, it's part of why I said these conversations have been a lifeline for me, you know, as I've gone through this of different points of fear to have so many people that I've tapped into that have similar values and a similar vision for what they wanna create in the world.

And so to like hold onto these moments, even when it gets scary and rocky, um, yeah, has meant a lot for me too. So I'm happy that you're here and you're trusting me to do this today.

Betty: Yeah. Yeah. Really it's, uh, I think monogamous relationships, to me, they're quite secretive in some ways. Like I grew up with families that held, [00:07:00] you didn't talk about things outside of the house.

Mm-hmm. You know, and modern culture movies, they always end when they get married. You never actually see how it is to be married. Right. So I've found since, since exploring different ways of being in relating, it's opened it up. You can ask people questions about how do you deal with this difficult thing, which I've just found so valuable.

Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And so hopefully you feel comfortable to ask me all those questions today as we dive in and co-create our episode together. So yeah, I'm excited to talk about it and I'll, I'll start us off with the first question, which is, what is relationship anarchy?

Betty: Ah, yeah. So the first time I heard that phrase was from, uh, a queer elder.

I know. And I thought they'd made it up. Yeah. And I was like, I was like, that's such a cool phrase. I was like, I'm going to use that. And I had no concept. It [00:08:00] was a thing. Sure. Uh, I was just like, oh, that's a cool thing my friend said. So yeah. So then I was like, Merily telling people I was a relationship anarchist.

And then someone was like, oh, so have you read the Manifesto? And I was like, oh. And then I had this moment when I was like, oh, I'm telling myself people that I'm this thing and this thing is actually ano, it's a, it's a real existing thing that has like. People like are attached to it. And I was like, oh.

And I didn't know anything about it. Mm-hmm. I'd just been like, that's a groovy phrase, Uhhuh. I like that. I'm gonna go with that. Yeah. So, yeah, so then I went on like a deep dive into like, oh, okay, what is this thing that I've been saying? Mm-hmm. I better go and do my research and uh, do my homework. 'cause like I've been claiming something that I didn't know anything about.

Sure. So, so yeah, I went off and did, started to do some homework and looked at their relationship anarchy manifesto and then just went down like a deep like rabbit hole on the [00:09:00] internet. At the same time, uh, I was actually with my friend Abs, who I, who I know has been on your podcast. Yes, yes, yes. Um, when this person said, said the phrase relationship anarchy, and, and at the time, me and abs were living together and abs talked about like polyamory and different ways of relating.

And so then I was sort of to them like, oh, is this is a thing? So then we started to Yeah, talk about it more, I suppose. And so yeah, so once I started to have an understanding of it, I just loved the principle. That really like went to my heart, was just the idea that I could negotiate the terms of every relationship.

Yeah. And, and it didn't just have to mean my sexual relationships. Right. I mean a whole, all my relationships. And I was like, oh, I found that as such an interesting concept.

Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Betty: Um, and also as someone who spent, I did [00:10:00] two heteronormative relationships back to back, tried to do the, the mortgage and the house, and luckily neither of the times did we have the kids.

Mm. Which I'm so, so grateful about now. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, uh, but I tried to do that and I, both times it was really bad for me and it was not great for them. And I, I had to start thinking, I. Yes, I can. There is a chance that I just have terrible taste in humans.

Nicole: Mm.

Betty: But there was also a part of me that was like, also, I don't wanna blame myself, but I am contributing to these situations.

So there is also things that I am doing that is putting me in these situations that are just not good for me. Mm-hmm. So I really was looking. For new ways of having relationships. And then when I just found out about this, I was like, oh, okay, maybe this is, maybe this is what I'm looking for. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, so it was, uh, started off as like a mythical creature.

Then I found out it [00:11:00] was real, and then I went to the zoo and looked at it a bit. So, and then I, and then I went and adopted it and brought it home.

Nicole: For sure. For sure. And I love that you were already like, mythical creature. Yes, yes. That's me. Let's go. You know, you were riding with it, so that's amazing. I love to hear that and I love to hear that.

I mean, it, it's such a practice. I mean, you know, you read, you can't step in the same river twice, right? So you read the manifesto the first time, which is different when you read it the 10th time or whatever time you read it again. And so it's like every time come in more to understand what it is that we're doing here with these words.

Um, and so yeah, such a joy to be able to talk about this with you today because I think it's, uh, it's a shift of the frame. I see it as, you know, when. So much of our cultural scripts are the one person that you invest all of your time and energy into. Often when I use the word relationship out in my life, people think I am referring to my quote unquote monogamous partner that [00:12:00] I would live and have kids with the whole thing or whatever, right.

Uh, versus the reality that we all have multiple relationships. Every single one of us on this entire planet, you know, from the time we are born to the time that we leave the earth, we are connected to people. And so there are relationships. Um, and so when we switch that frame into, wow, I have so many of these that I actually should be reflecting on and putting intentionality and care into, whoa.

That's a whole different lens, you know?

Betty: Yeah. Yeah. And as someone who, you know, I'm, I'm 46, I never say never. I might get married. Mm-hmm. Um, but it's not. You know, it's not something that I'm actively manifesting. Mm-hmm. Um, and it's at 46, I, you know, I'm not gonna have my own kids. I'm not saying I'm not gonna meet someone who has kids.

Sure. That that won't happen. But there is a real chance as I look sort of into the, the future that I'd [00:13:00] not gonna have, like with my mom, she's got a lot of health issues and I care for her a lot. Mm-hmm. And I do kind of think, ah, you know, like, who's gonna do that for me? Like, you know, and I'm not gonna have a child just 'cause I want someone to care for me when I'm older, though I think some people do.

Um

Nicole: Mm. Yeah. A lot. Yeah.

Betty: But to look at my life under the lens of relationship anarchy, suddenly going into that future without a child or a like legal partner kind of felt a bit less scary because it suddenly made me aware, just like you said, that. I have all these relationships and these relationships that are important and they, um, just good little segue here.

Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Betty: Uh, I found the relationship smorgasbord. Yep. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I've done that with some of my partners, um, and I did it with me and AB have done it together. Cool. Um, yeah. And to just be able to realize that, you know, you can have some of these [00:14:00] things that are tied up normally in marriage. You know, like ABS is my power of attorney.

If anything was to happen to me with, with my cousin. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, just realizing that there is other ways to get, to get some of those sort of nurturing needs met as we grow older in non-traditional ways, just by sort of reframing how I thought about these relationships. And that to me was just interesting and heartwarming and so expansive.

My life just felt like it got so much bigger.

Nicole: Mm-hmm. That's so beautiful. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Like your sources of love just expanded a whole

Betty: paradigm, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So that was, that to me was really, really important. 'cause I was like, oh, okay, I can reframe and, and also I can ask things of people, you know, that's big.

Yeah. You know, things that [00:15:00] maybe you would've, traditionally you've been told you can only ask for of your one romantic partner. Right. But then, you know, you can ask things of other people. Oh, okay, yes. I, I could ask you to come to the doctors with me, or, I, do you know what I mean? And you start having these conversations with people and, and it just Yeah.

Opened up my life really to mm-hmm. Stop viewing all my relationships differently. And the idea that I could ask for things. People don't have to give me those things, of course. Right. And people might be able to give me different things, but. I felt like I wasn't allowed to ask things of my friends in that way.

Mm. And looking through the relationship anarchy lens, it made me realize that I could ask things of people and that people could ask things of me. Does that, does that make sense?

Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm thinking about kind of what you had said at the beginning about privacy and often in, you know, monogamous culture, the.

Again, not all monogamous people practice this, this way, [00:16:00] but the concept of emotional cheating, right? Yeah. So this concept that if you have any deep connection with anybody else other than your romantic partner is cheating that kind of lens when we're talking about that, I mean, yeah, of course you're not gonna ask anything significant of other people because that's like a level of cheating to like relate on such a level of intimacy, especially if you're asking for tender things of vulnerability.

You know, my mom isn't going through something right now. I need emotional support, or I need help with intimacy, with taking care of my cat that's in my home, often a quote unquote private space, right? And so, um, yeah, it makes sense that under that paradigm there is almost a, a feeling that you should only be going to your.

Romantic partner for these sorts of support, especially like emotional support around and complexity.

Betty: Yeah. And then couple that with the fact that I, I grew up with sort of, I was born in 1978, so I was a teenager, you know, end of [00:17:00] the nineties into the early two thousands. That's when I was in my twenties.

So I sort of grew up with, I don't know what it was. I don't know if you had this phrase in America, but we had this term called the Ladette.

Nicole: Mm-hmm. No, no.

Betty: Um, which was like, there, uh, there was like this girl, a woman called Zoe Ball, who's still famous over here and, but um, was sort of this idea of feminism meant.

Whatever the men did, you did it harder, longer, and faster. So it was all about staying up all night, necking beers, drinking whiskey of a bottle. Sure. Do you know, I mean, it, there was a very much, it was a, looking back now, it was a really toxic feminism.

Nicole: Sure.

Betty: And it was like, it was like, oh, well just claim all the worst bits of masculinity and we'll do them.

Nicole: Right.

Betty: But it was a way of by doing that you were accepted in the male culture. Sure. Uh, so yeah, having that and that sort of feminism, very much of, you know, uh, women can have it all. [00:18:00] They can have a career, they can have babies, they can have a successful fair, dah, dah. And it wasn't really a culture that encouraged sisterhood, leaning on people asking for stuff.

It was very. Individualism, feminism, do you know?

Nicole: Sure, totally. Yeah, absolutely.

Betty: And so I think, I think I grew up with, still with that idea of, to be a good feminism feminist, to be a good woman meant that you were strong and you were independent and you didn't ask for help from people. And you know, you, you, you had all your shit together and you, you got it.

You know, you got it all done.

Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely right? And so then, you know, asking for help might mean I feel weak or I'm incapable, I think. Exactly. Yeah. And definitely, and when I'm reflecting on what you're saying in my own experience, I know that. Uh, there was so much social conditioning that was, you know, women can't, I can't change my [00:19:00] tire right off the car, or I can't change this.

So many other things that society has taught me, I quote unquote can't as a woman. And so I think there was definitely a period of me being like, I can do it all myself. Don't even ask me for help. Absolutely not. You know, and so learning to be like, oh, you know, it's okay. Like, I, I can do this myself and also I can ask for help.

Right. And so being able to lean on people and not have to be so hyper independent, it's, um, yeah, we don't wanna be codependent or hyper independent. It's interconnected. What is that in between space where we can oscillate between our own ability and leaning on community for support and really dance between those two?

Betty: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that. Looking at relationship anarchy and bringing that into my life has, has really allowed me to look at what I ask of people, I think.

Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Betty: Um, which has been really, really special. It's also been really good for my sex life. But yeah. You wanna say more? You're in the right [00:20:00] podcast for that conversation.

Let's go. Okay. Yeah. So when I came out of my last long-term relationship, I like threw all of my fun kinky stuff away. Oh no. I threw all of my outfits away. No, I threw everything away. No. I was like, sex is dead to me. And I was like, I, I'm 40, I've, you know, I've hit 40, it's over. You know, I'm just, that part of me is dead.

I'm just gonna move on with my life as a, as a celibate spinster and get loads of dogs. Mm-hmm.

And uh, and read loads of books. Then of course, you know, I went on field Oh yeah,

Nicole: totally.

Betty: With a guy I was seeing at the time because we were looking to open our relationship up. That relationship ended, which was a good thing.

Sure. Um, but then I was on field, so then I was sort of like, oh. And that was the first real experience I'd been on there and I was like, okay, maybe. And, you know, I'd sort of been having quite [00:21:00] good sex with this, with this guy that, that guy, but it didn't last very long, so. Mm-hmm. Then I was like, okay. So I met an incredible human, uh, and oh my God, he is, he was so good in bed.

Mm-hmm. Um, he was, he's like a massage therapist. Ooh, I love that. Yeah. Yeah. And, and like the first time we met, he did like a hot stone massage on me. Yes. And yeah. And it was, it was all very, very erotic and, and lovely. And we had like a really lovely, lovely time. Um, and I was like, oh, okay. Yeah, I think I'm getting more my mojo back.

Like Yeah. Uh, because he just really spoiled me for a day, which was beautiful. And then he invited me to spend some time with him and his partner. And I've had like threesomes before, I'd only think I'd ever been with two people who were quite, they were very in touch with their bodies.

Nicole: Mm.

Betty: And as him as a massage therapist and, oh, he's done like so many different [00:22:00] things.

But, um, yeah, he, he was very sensual and it, it just opened me up to so much pleasure. Oh yeah. And also it was such a good learning experience 'cause I like got to watch, see what other people did.

Nicole: Yeah.

Betty: And I was like, oh, okay. Oh, she's licking his dick like that. I dunno if I'm allowed to say that.

Nicole: You can, can say that in this space that belongs in this space.

Betty: Yes. And I was like, oh, I've never tried doing that. Right. And then you'd like get him. And so like, not only did. It opened me up, but then I saw other things and I suddenly, it was like, I'd felt like I'd done all my learning about sex. Mm. And then suddenly it just made me realize that I hadn't even started.

Yeah. Uh, and it was just, it was so transformative. Yeah. And I've been with quite a few blokes who have loved getting their dick sucked, but [00:23:00] do not wanna go anywhere near eating pussy. Or if they do, it's like a special occasion. Mm-hmm. And you have to like give them so much praise and tell 'em how good they are and it's kind of exhausting.

Yeah. Also, I. I'm not someone who shaves my pubic hair. Right. Um, and that's, that's quite fashionable now. Mm-hmm. Like 20 years ago it was kind of less fashionable. Sure, sure. So that was, that was often a surprise conversation I'd have with gentlemen. Yeah. Um, and some of them claimed that put them off because they, ooh, it was too much hair.

I dunno how to deal with that. Wow. So I sort of just, yeah. So I sort of gave up on sort of oral sex damn. And then met this guy with, you know, and he was, is incredible. Mm-hmm. And I was just like, oh, oh. And it made me go, he really made me raise my standards basically. So

Nicole: hell yes. I love that for you,

Betty: we love the people that do that in our lives.

Yes, yes. Yeah. I was like, do you know once I met [00:24:00] this couple and saw the way that. They interacted with each other and they were having, you know, they were, I dunno what they identify as. Mm-hmm. Ethically, non-monogamous, I think. Mm-hmm. Uh, the, the lady that, uh, that was sort of her term Sure. And then his term, I, he doesn't believe in labels, so respect that he's just him.

Yeah. Respect that. Yeah. But seeing how they were interacting and just being like, surrounded by just kindness and love and just generosity and, and just fun and like going out on dates together and it just being, oh, just so love, just so lovely. Just so, um, and just it felt so special and I, yeah. I, I, I did quite like being in a little gang.

Yeah.

Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's bringing to mind my studies and relationships with feminist psychology that would talk about the [00:25:00] five good things in relationships and. One of them being a zest for life. This energy, right? When you hang out with relationships that are mutually empowering and you're seeing one another, there is this energy for more and more connection of life.

And so for you to feel that with these people, I'm sure I, I definitely resonate. Once you tap into people who kind of live this way, you see a whole new world of relating and what it can expand for you. And so I'm so happy to hear that you had these people that were able to like bring this energy into your life and really transform it in different ways.

We grow and learn in community, right? And so to be able to find those people such a joy and to reflect on the sexuality pieces, I mean, this is the heart of relationship anarchy, right? At its core because we're talking about power structures of society and how it impacts the ways that we relate, and particularly sexes, you know, even that moment where you were like, can I say this on the show?

Yes, yes you can. Until [00:26:00] I get kicked outta this airspace, I'm gonna, yes. Yes. Um, and that's like the power moment. Like, look at that in your psyche right there of like, can we, right? And so that is all of the power structures that we live under that make us kind of wanna silence our voice for protection, et cetera.

And so it impacts how we relate. And if we think about sex as a language and we're in a society where it wants us to be quiet about it, many of us lack the language to even speak about these things, and that therefore impacts how we can enjoy it. Right? Could you imagine a language where it's silent and you're just expected to, like, flow in these states where like, if you talk about it, it ruins the mood?

Like it is just mind boggling to me, right? And so, uh, yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, I think that you can definitely learn a language by practicing with one person, right? You will learn a language by practicing with one person. Uh, the majority of [00:27:00] our culture does serial monogamy now, so the majority of people don't just practice with one.

They do have multiple people that they have practiced in a lifetime. And also there is something really profound about being able to practice with multiple people At the same time, it's if, if we, if I was teaching myself a new language, there is benefit to sit with five different people and try to speak that language with each one because you're gonna learn different things about the dialogue.

Yeah.

Betty: Yeah. Because everyone does it differently. Yes, they do. And also, you know, we've, we've grown up watching porn, right. And like, I always try, like, I always say that porn is, it's like watching the Olympics of sex.

Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Betty: Like you could, there's no way that a normal person should be doing what they're doing.

It's like when you watch the Olympics, you go, that's cool. You then don't go and strap on a snowboard and try and do like a 360 half pike. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. You don't, because you know you're not an Olympian. And it's the same with [00:28:00] PAs. They, they're like Olympians, they bodies, they've trained, they do things.

Mm-hmm. Like, so the sex we, you can see. Is like so unobtainable. Yeah. So to actually sit, to actually be in the same space as other people having sex. Yes. And to see it and it's just be like rec normal is just, for me, I've just learned so much about my body, about other people's bodies. Mm. Mm-hmm. It's made me feel so much more confident in my body.

Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Betty: You know? Yeah. Just to know, you know, I intrinsically knew. Everyone's boobs and vulvas look different.

Nicole: Right.

Betty: I I knew that. But it's not until you start seeing more

Nicole: Yes.

Betty: That you go, oh yeah. They do all look different.

Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And so then there's less criticism on the self. I think when you see that, you're like, oh, I'm a part of this wide diversity of bodies.[00:29:00] 

Betty: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I like, I went to like a naked spa and it was just, it was just incredible just to be wandering around and just seeing all, not one single person in there looked the same.

Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Betty: Not one single body was the same, and yet you turn on the telly and every single body is the same. Right. It was so.

So beautiful to be in that space. I wish we were more comfortable with non-sexual nudity in both our countries.

Nicole: Mm, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. What sort of space that would be, you know what I mean? What sort of space? A very different space. I like to think there'd be more vulnerability, less shame, and more connection.

Yeah. Yeah.

Betty: It, yeah, it just made me feel my body's just regular. Mm-hmm. And, and that's, and everyone's body's just regular to them. Right. And that was, yeah. So that was, I, yeah. I'm finding that side of exploring, you know, what I'm doing. [00:30:00] Interesting.

Nicole: It just removes so much of the pressure, you know, it's, it's like that, it's, it's a body.

It's a body. It makes sounds people have different, like, it just feels much easier, at least in my life and lived experience coming into this, it feels much easier to, to play, like, to really look at eroticism as play. Yeah. In the full range from the, the dungeon energy to the vanilla energy to the whole spectrum in between.

Like it feels much easier to tap into that and to, to do it with multiple different people across different levels in a way that it used to be at, at least for me, coming from purity culture. Definitely something that was on a pedestal that was reserved specifically for marriage. That was like a whole real thing.

Yeah. Um, and so to like find new narratives of connection, new levels of trust, new ability to name like, hi, I like making out with you and you know, using these sorts of toys on you, but maybe I don't wanna do oral. Right. The ability to even notice that in myself of the range of types of ways to play with people across different [00:31:00] connections.

'cause it used to always be like, if I like someone, it means we go from, you know, hugs all the way to sex and to find like, yeah, have a range of attraction for people that results in a range of desires of things to do. That's a learned skill. Whoa. Yeah.

Betty: Yeah. It's just, yeah, it's just really fascinating.

Yeah. And uh, and I think also in this time when, you know, uh, I'm gonna do a little segue here. I don't know if you've seen the pretty Little things website rebrand? Oh, I haven't. Uh, pretty little things is like this, it used to be like this, I, I would say like bubblegum pink Slutty club dress website where you could buy dresses for like, I, I don't know, 15 pounds.

And they were, it was all very like club and it was fine. If girls wanna go out wearing that, I, I fully, fully support it. It was all pinks and things and stuff. And they've had a total rebrand and everything on there is like brown or [00:32:00] cream and it's all blazers or, and, uh, I was reading this article about when conservatism comes back into fashion,

Nicole: Ooh.

Betty: Fashion also then reflects that conservatism. So, uh, and they were using this as an example of the current sort of resurgence of conservative values that's going on everywhere at the moment and saying, you know, isn't it interesting that this big fashion brand is choosing to sort of go with that? So I just think in a time when I can see things getting more conservative, for me to keep finding different ways to relate to people that are outside of that paradigm

Nicole: mm-hmm.

Betty: In whatever way I can find for me is really important.

Nicole: Yeah.

Betty: Um, and you know, it's not just about queer rights and trans rights, which obviously it is, it is about that as well, but it's also about all of our rights just to be different.

Nicole: Yeah. [00:33:00] 

Betty: So, yeah, so, so, so doing practicing relationship anarchy, talking about it to people, being open about having, you know, several partners just casually at work and stuff and

Nicole: Yeah.

Betty: You know, you know, someone came into work the other day who I was working with as a freelancer, and they had. The anxious guide to polyamory or something. Love Phoenix. Yeah. Yeah. And they would just like put it down just straight away. I was like, oh, uh, if you're all right and we've got time later, do you mind if we have a chat about that book?

I'd be really interested to hit, you know, like, try to foster these conversations and, and bring different ways of relating out. And I don't want people to think like I'm anti monogamy. I'm totally not. If monogamy works for you and that's what you wanna do, like I am all for it. Some of my friends have been together for, for years.

My cousin, who I grew up with, he's been with his girlfriend, who's now his wife for years. They have children [00:34:00] together. You know, it, it works for them. And I, I just want people to be able to have the choice, right, to choose how they relate and. Just making sure that more options are on the table to start with, for me is really important.

Totally. And in this time when it feels like our choices are starting to be taken away from us, right. Just keep talking out about different ways of relating seems really important to me.

Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. I appreciate the nuance there of that, right? It's about the choice. And if the alternative is stigmatized, if the alternative is attacked and demonized, you know, do we have choice in that moment?

Right? So it's important to keep talking to, uh, raise the collective consciousness that there are other options available, and it's about the diversity and the opportunity to choose the option that resonates with you. I think I've thrown around, you know, there's, there's times where you need more language for things, and so for people who feel bogged down by the word of monogamy, you know, maybe you could say, I practice sexual fidelity.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. [00:35:00] And whether that's your closed triad of a poly Q and that that's, that's a closed situation, or it's one person or four, you know, whatever your closed situation is, you practice sexual fidelity and maybe that can release us some of the weight of the label monogamy and what that can mean culturally and all those pieces, or adopt it, you know, everyone gets to do what they want.

Um, but sometimes we need more language, you know?

Betty: Yeah. And also it becomes, you know, like it's funny how words can get weaponized so quickly, uh, to sort of other people,

Nicole: right.

Betty: And I think, yeah, it's really, it's hard. Like you, we wanna give more choices, but this is another bit of a segue. Yeah. I, I, I was in America in the two weeks before your last election, and I was there on election day and flew back the next day.

Mm-hmm. And I was in Arizona, so we had two visits from. Trump and two visits from Kamala and like the news, I don't know how you guys live out there. Oh, was, it was, thanks for checking in on us. It was, it was, it was wild. There'd be [00:36:00] like an advert being like, bombs going off, like Trump's gonna fix it.

Everyone ruined it and then there'd be another advert by someone else going, no, they broke it and I'm gonna fix it. And then someone else. And just, just like, there was just so much hatred and blame. And so while I was there, I read a book by Naomi Klein called Doppelganger, which was about a woman that's the se has the same name as her and they keep getting mistaken on Twitter, but this other woman's very right wing.

Mm-hmm. And so she starts to look at division and I also read another book while I was at the same time Hope for Cynic. So it's all like books about, I was really trying to understand. How people could get to a point where they could look at someone like Trump and think that's a good idea. Because I could see that people did think that was a good idea, but I didn't understand why.

Yeah. Like, and I don't agree with them, but I think we've got to this point where, on [00:37:00] both sides, now, if you're on the left, you have to agree with all of these viewpoints. And if you're on the right, you have to agree and there's no room for nuance. Mm-hmm. Or discussion or community or letting people do things differently.

And it really, it really struck me, you know, that. I think, I think my point is some, one of the guy, one of the people I'm seeing at the moment, we have some quite different views about

Nicole: mm-hmm.

Betty: Various things. And I think like five years ago, I would've never dated someone who didn't have the same views about things on me.

'cause I'd just be like, I can't, can't do that. I can't do that. Yeah. But now I'm, I'm in a place where, and I think this is be partly because of relationship anarchy is where I can hold way more differences. Sure. You know? Yes. And if, and once you're in a community of people, everyone doesn't have to agree with me.

Nicole: Right.

Betty: But I know that I can go and talk to this people about this thing that I like to talk, you know? [00:38:00] Mm-hmm. Whereas I think when, when I was just in a one-on-one relationship, if the person I was with didn't explicitly agree with everything I was with, then I was like, how is this a partnership? Yeah.

How can we be together? We fundamentally don't agree on these things. Like, it was so troubling for me. So. I'm trying to find a place where I can be with people's different viewpoints and it not be so black and white thinking, I think is what I'm trying to say. Totally does, does that. So as a big segue ramble, you can cut as much of that.

You No,

Nicole: it's beautiful. Yeah, it's beautiful. I'm here with you. Yeah, I am. I'm thinking about the ways that when we, you know, I feel like we're hitting on the next question, which is like, how is it practiced? When you reflect on the escalator, you become aware of it. 'cause again, you can ride the escalator and there's nothing wrong with that, but it's the awareness so that you're riding the escalator and that you're doing that.

Um, so when you have deconstructed that as the default, there's lots of different relationships and maybe I have this connection that. It's really great. I see [00:39:00] them once every couple of weeks. They're not someone I would ever see myself traveling with. They're not someone I'd ever see myself living with.

Right. And I can connect with them on this rate and that's okay. That's great. Um, or maybe it's someone that I can see that travel with or maybe it's someone that I could see that living with. And all of those factors are dependent on different levels of, uh, you know, ability to be in harmony, you know, with that person.

And so if someone has a different view, like it's, rather than a question of yes or no relationship, it's more of a question of where are they at in my orbit? How often do I wanna see this person? At what frequency? To what depth? And like what do I want to talk about? Right? And so it's more of a questions of just how close or how far based on our ability to be in harmony.

And I think it's interesting 'cause, um. My mom voted for Trump. So it's like right there, it's right there for me. Like, it's like, if I wanna know, this is the culture. It's, it's right there. Yeah.

Betty: And then you, but you [00:40:00] know, you, I'm sure some people would've stopped talk. I don't know if you stopped. I do talk to my mom.

Yeah. But yeah, some people would've stopped talking to that. And I know they have, and that to me, kind of breaks my heart because, you know, I, I, I think that when you get down to the real reasons for people doing most things, most people want things to be better.

Right.

I, I, well, that's what I have to believe.

Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Yes.

Betty: And, and I, and I think we all have different ideas about how to make things better.

Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Betty: Uh, I do also think there's a ton of disinformation out there. Right? So I don't have any social media. I don't spend, so I don't spend any time on any of those platforms. But I am aware there is a lot, a lot of crazy out there.

Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Betty: And but just cutting these people out doesn't, it just makes the divide further.

Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Betty: I don't know. It's, yeah. [00:41:00] Yes. It's really hard.

Nicole: Yeah, it is absolutely very hard. 'cause you know, there, there's a line of needing to take space for protection if you're being actively abused or harmed in relationships.

As a therapist, I hear a lot of different dynamics about that. And so there's space that needs to be taken, um, and then in the space, but, you know, before that level of reality, you know. You hope that we can love people in community, which means that you're not the only person to have to like hold that, that weight of that person.

You know, like you can share this with other people who are all gonna care, take for them. And so hopefully we, we work on that together. So I would, I, yeah, I still talk to my mom and when I think about. My upbringing, I was, because I was her daughter in that positionality. Right? Like, uh, I think my first election, you know, I did vote red conservative, and that's because at the time I was Christian and there was this deep connection that if you're a good Christian, you vote Republican and these are your values.

And so I [00:42:00] think there's just, they're the party of God.

Betty: Yes, exactly. And the democratic is full, Democrats is full of baby eating Satanists

Nicole: Yes. That have gotten the liberal agenda down their throat. Right, exactly. And so I think when I see my mom or other people, like, they feel like they're doing the right thing, they're voting in accordance with their faith and religious beliefs, but, uh, really unaware of, you know, the racism and the othering and the, it's the immigrants taking our jobs.

Right. Like all that sort of problematic bullshit that they swallowed.

Betty: We, we were, I was at the, the, my mom's having radiotherapy and we were at the hospital. Uh, this week and one of the machines had broken, so there was a delay. And one of the men in the waiting room was blaming the fact that one of the machines was broken on asylum seekers and Wow.

Nicole: Wow. What a stretch.

Betty: Yeah. He was going on, he was basically saying if we weren't spending so much money housing asylum seekers, we'd have enough money to make sure that [00:43:00] all the machines work properly. And yeah, it was a stretch. And I sat there and I, I had this moment where I was like, I really wanna ask him some questions about that.

'cause that is a wild stretch. And then I was just like, I'm waiting in a waiting room of people being treated for cancer. Is this the place? Yeah. I was just like, do you know what, yeah, I'm gonna note down his wild, wild thought processes and I'm just gonna go back to reading my book

Nicole: and you're gonna talk about it on modern anarchy.

Betty: But yeah, it's so, yeah, it's, it's wild. Yeah. The sort of other ring that's out there, I suppose. And yeah.

Nicole: And another ring that is needed is, I think my first question with him would be like. Hey, sir, did you know 47% of the global wealth is owned by the 1% of billionaires at the top? So 47%. So for, for even if you're [00:44:00] right, which I doubt you are about the asylum seekers, let me pause you for a moment and tell you that above all of that is 47%.

You know, so it's like, yeah, it's, it's okay. But that's not, obviously not the conversation that the billionaires are gonna be putting out on the airs when they control all the outlets and stuff, right? Because that, that level of awareness would probably frustrate the majority of people. So I think it's just, yeah, the arrow's not being pointed at the right thing, you know?

Betty: No, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah, it's, yeah, it's, it is wild out there. I'm sorry, I think I've digressed from the question.

Nicole: No, that's okay. That's okay. We were reflecting on, on how you practice relationship age.

Betty: Oh, okay. So, I think I started off with, I've always had this idea, and I've always noticed this, that.

People treat their friends far better than they treat their partners. Mm. And I was like, why is it when your friend says, oh, I'm gonna go on holiday, or, you know, I've got this opportunity to go somewhere for [00:45:00] two weeks. You're like, oh my God, that's so great for you. It's gonna be great for your career. And you are like, go, go, go.

Positive, positive. And then in, that's a partly, you're like, what you mean you're gonna leave me for two weeks? Um, so, you know, I really, I, I, I noticed that a lot. And also I felt like this idea that as you know, as soon as you love someone, you then like lock out a load of choices for them has always felt quite unnatural to me.

Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Betty: You know, so. And then actually, do you know I'd, 'cause I'd forgotten until fairly recently, but when I was at university, one of my boyfriends at the time, he wanted to have an open relationship and I was actually like, fine with it. Yeah. And he went on some dates with this girl and it was fine. We, we were actually living, we were living together.

So it was me and four male friends at university. So, uh, and one of them was this guy I was dating, so, yeah. So we were living together. He was going out on dates with other [00:46:00] women. Totally fine. Yeah. We were all enjoying it. I went out on a date with a man and suddenly he, no, I don't wanna know from relationship anymore.

Wow. And we, we closed it down and, and then, and I had totally forgotten about that until like, fairly, fairly recently. Wow. So, you know, I, I started experimenting with this in my twenties. Yeah. And, you know, at that time it, even at that time, it felt very natural. So then cut to now try doing it again, you know?

Read the Manifesto. I read like, oh, this one and the one. Oh, poll wise. Yeah. Yeah. And the one before. Um, I haven't read the ethical slot, though. I love that. It's fun. I've read lots, found as many podcasts as I could do, you know, all, all that stuff started going out there and, and doing it and, uh, was very much like, this is, this is good.

Yeah. You know, I'm really enjoying it. And then my friend AB started dating. [00:47:00] Seeing somebody who I was also seeing Mm. And I had been totally prepared for the people that I was dating to be dating other people. Yes. But in my head, there'd been mythical other people that were not connected to me. Obviously with hindsight I can now, it's a fairly limited community.

Yes. Uh, and so there is a huge amount of crossover. Yes, there is. So, uh, I kind of like, with hindsight, I'm like, I can't see that. I can't believe I didn't see this coming, but I didn't see it coming. And so that really blindsided me quite early on. Mm-hmm. Um, and it was, um, yeah, I found it quite hard, you know, with, with great.

It was a great learning experience. Sure. Yeah. 'cause it was with a quite casual relationship. Obviously. I really wanted to work things out with abs because we have a very. Good. Like partnership relationship, though we're not, you know, we're not dating. And so I was really invested in finding a way to [00:48:00] make it work.

Now I, with hindsight, I can tell you at the time I didn't deal with it great. Mm-hmm. Uh, sure. Uh, I, I withdrew. I didn't wanna talk to abs for a bit. I had to have some, some space, and I didn't ask for that very kindly, I don't think. Mm. Um, and then my way to sort of rectify it for a bit was a bit of, I did the not, don't ask, don't tell, but I was like, can you just, I just don't wanna know the specific times that you're together.

Nicole: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Betty: I found that quite difficult the first time that happened.

Nicole: Sure,

Betty: sure. Um, so, so yeah. So then I had, so yeah, so I had to do quite a bit of working through of my jealousy, of what I was jealous of. I really realized it really came down to the scarcity narrative. Mm-hmm. Okay. Um, it really came down to the fact of.

If this person's seeing me and he is also seeing her. And then there's also this other person, if I look at these two [00:49:00] people and then look at me like, what have I got? What am I bringing? Is there enough space? And it was really all about lack comparison and Yeah. And scarcity.

Nicole: Right.

Betty: And that was really kind of good to understand.

Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Betty: Um, because then I was able to sort of work on abundance and looking at and asking for time with people. Yeah. And having, and having those requests granted was that Oh, okay. So then I, it was it. Yeah. So it was a really great. For me, I think it was a really great way of getting into it. 'cause I got to process a lot of things quite early on.

Mm-hmm. In a pretty safe

Nicole: Sure.

Betty: Environment. Really nice.

Nicole: Nice. Yes. Which will make her, make her break the experience. Right. The safer the environment, the better. The psychedelic trip for the ego death that you went through of that experience. You know what I mean? It is, it's very humbling for sure.

Especially when there are just such new [00:50:00] dynamics. And so I hear you saying like, you know, you didn't do it as best as you would now, but the time you were doing your best and you were trying your best. And when you look back you can see, wow, I had this childhood attachment coming up here and this insecurity here and this, you know, like you were saying, scarcity mindset and you look back on it.

Yeah. You know, a little bit wider eyed going, damn, you know, but, um, what a learning space, what a space of humility to step into and have all these different dynamics. And I think. Yeah, I just came back from a group trip where that was sort of the energy of working through the sort of complexities because we had all like shared space together as people that co were interested in each other, which makes sense 'cause we start to build communities, people similar values and like activities.

And of course we're all gonna be like, Hey, you're all so beautiful too. Wow. You know? Um, but, but traveling together and having time when you're actually in close proximity, you are much more aware of all the dynamics, like you were saying. [00:51:00] I don't wanna know when the two of you're together, when you're traveling together, that is all up in your face real fast.

Yeah. Yeah.

Betty: There is no getting around on that.

Nicole: No, exactly. And so it brings out so many different feelings that, you know, learning to have the language for, asking for your desires. That's one of the most powerful transformations I think of jealousy, is to recognize that within that jealousy there is some sort of narrative maybe of scarcity.

And so there's a desire and this fear that it can't be met. And so to be able to sit with that and actually feel into what you were wanting and then verbalize it. Ooh, the power over your emotional experience. Yes.

Betty: Yeah. And it was great. And actually coming out of that, I met a guy on field I'm still seeing now, and when I met him.

He's lucky I clicked on his profile 'cause a he's younger than I would, had set my age limit to. Sure, sure, sure, sure. And abs told me that I was being ageist and, and I was like, but I can't really, you know, what, what am I gonna have in common with someone? Who's that? You know, [00:52:00] whatever. Do you know what I mean?

I had this idea that, that we wouldn't have shared life experience or, you know, I dunno, I grew up without a mobile phone, so I sometimes feel like, I dunno how to relate to people who grew up with mobile phones. I don't know. So, so yeah. So abs was like, no. So I lowered my age limit, long story short. Anyway, so his picture came up and he had hardly anything written, but he just had a few freckles over his nose and I've got freckles, so I'm a bit of a sucker for freckles.

Mm. So I clicked on and we matched and then because he hadn't written anything, I just wrote this. Big, long thing going, right, okay. You've written nothing, so I'm gonna tell you this is what I want and looking for. And just laid it all out, you know? Mm-hmm. Like I was literally looking for a penis owner who lived in the same town as me, who wanted to have sex with me a couple of times a week, but didn't need to provide any emotional attachment, uh, any emotional support.

'cause I sort of had that covered with, with other people.

Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Betty: Um, and yeah, it was so refreshing to just [00:53:00] ask for what I want, just really clearly and honestly, and just be like, this is what I'm looking for. Mm-hmm. Is this something that you are interested in? Mm-hmm. Seeing if seeing and, and they were, and that was just so great.

And actually now it's turned into an incredibly loving and nice in relationship. Mm-hmm. Um, but I think that's because. Initially, I, neither of us had any expectations.

Nicole: Mm, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So it had the space to create. Right. And often so many people are doing that sort of, uh, I want someone to have sex with that.

I don't have emotional, you know, needs fulfilled, but doing it in a way where they just don't name it. Right. Yeah. That's like the, uh, situationship sort of thing where people are afraid to ask like, what are we, or what are we doing? Like people often do this sort of dynamic without the consent conversation that you had with this person of, hi, this is what I want.

Would you like to consent to relating to me in [00:54:00] this way? Like, wow. Like, you know, like what a world we'd be in if we could all name that desire and be able to communicate.

Betty: Like, but I've really found though, that since starting to name my desires for things like that. I have much less patience in the real world when people don't ask me for what they want.

Yeah. When people at work start like tiptoeing round something, I'm like, where's the request? Just gimme the request. And they're like, what? And I'm like, just ask me for what you want. Just, ah, they're, oh, okay. Oh, I want this. And I'm like, okay, yes or no. I can do that. But like it's, it is meaning I'm having so much less tolerance when people aren't being clear.

Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Betty: And I'm forever now in, in, in one of my group, well, a couple of my group chats, people will write stuff and whereas before I'd just be like, I, what that means? And then I just ignore it. Now I'm like, hi, I am really sorry, but if you want me to respond to that comment, I'm gonna need some clarification on [00:55:00] these points because I don't understand.

Right. So I'm getting really better at asking people to clearly tell me what they want and need. Mm-hmm. And I'm just also finding, like, I find it so much. Karma and people just ask me for what they want. It's so much less stressful. Yeah. And when people are like silly shelling around something, I'm just like, uh, so yeah.

So I definitely found that the principles of relationship anarchy that I'm finding in my intimate relating, I'm now bringing into my other relating and this is really helpful.

Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah. 'cause these are skills across all relationships. And so I love that your temperature, right, your water temperature check has shifted so much so that you feel that cold jarring water and you're like, what is this?

Just tell me what you want. You know? And hopefully you can be that, um, like temperature razor for other people, right? That start to say like, wow, like they communicate really well with me. Maybe I should do that in the future. And I. [00:56:00] Can only imagine that these skills, I, I, I think about, you know, the ways that in sexuality, again, such a difficult space for people to find language.

And so when you really have the language to say, this is what I want and not this, and, uh, this is the pressure I would like, and I would like more lube, can we transition to this? Like, and those sorts of skills of naming desires, which are in tune with your body, that translates out into all areas of your life because you're, you're doing the, the scary, you know, talk in our society and culture.

So once you kind of tackle that muscle and you're like, oh yeah, I can name that. I need this pressure with that amount of lube, like anything else becomes kind of like a walk in the park. You're like, oh yeah, I can So much easier.

Betty: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nicole: So much easier. It's like, oh yeah, that's easy. You know? Yeah.

So I love that. I love the raising of the skills there with that and the ways that that's translated out to all of your different relationships. So powerful.

Betty: Yeah. Yeah. It really, it really has. It really has. So yeah, I'm, I'm, I do feel really lucky [00:57:00] that I've been sort of on this journey.

Nicole: Yeah, I know, I know, I know.

I agree. I agree. Uh, I'm curious for you then the next question is, uh, why do you practice relationship anarchy? Why is this important to you?

Betty: Uh, so I think I've touched on this a little already, but a big part of it is community building. Right? As I get older, I want to make sure that I. Nurturing the relationships that I need to carry me through my life, if that makes sense.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, and trying to be conscious about those relationships. So yeah, the community building aspect is really important. I've always been told that I'm too much. Mm-hmm. And I have a lot of different interests. And having a larger community of people around me who love me is really good for me.

I don't feel too much. 'cause I feel like I can, I feel like I'm in a big enough [00:58:00] container to hold me. Yeah.

Nicole: Yeah.

Betty: As opposed to constantly feeling like I need to make myself smaller. Smaller. So just so that I'm bearable for one person.

Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Betty: That's been really, really important to me. Also, I think I am bisexual.

So when I was in a relationship with a boy, after a while I'd be a little bit, like the relationship would be fine, but I'd be a little bit like, yeah, I'm kind of missing ladies. Mm-hmm. And then I'd be in a relationship with the lady and then I'd be like, no, I'm kind of missing me. Mm-hmm. So having this openness and fluidity is means that I don't have to, I don't have to choose one side or other of my bisexuality.

Mm-hmm. I can be exploring both at the same time. Mm-hmm. Which to me, feels more authentic. I, I don't feel like I'm constantly having to deny part of myself to be in something and vice versa. That's been really, really important to me. [00:59:00] And also I think the current relationships I'm in at the moment, there's a level of, and I, I guess it comes from all these things we've already talked about, but there's a level where we are incredibly honest.

When we are not together, I like what they do when I'm not with them in the nicest possible ways, isn't my business. If they wanna share that with me, then I wanna hear about it, but it's not my expectation. And I also read, I don't know whether I got it from a podcast or a book, but someone was talking about how every time you are in relating with someone, when people give you love, it's a gift.

It's their gift to give to you. And they can choose to give you that gift for as long as they want to. And they can also choose to not give you that gift. And whilst that's really sad for me, trying to go into every interaction I. The expectation of that leading to another interaction. Mm-hmm. Even though there's a tiny bit of [01:00:00] heartbreak there, I think my my Buddhist friend said.

I'm dying every day as opposed to having a big death or better than that.

Nicole: Yeah.

Betty: But that I know, that I know in my heart that people change in relationships aren't certain, and that even if you put a ring on it or say you love someone and tell them that you're never, ever, ever gonna leave them, and that you soulmates, it doesn't actually mean you're never, ever, ever gonna leave.

Right. It's a, it's a false security. And I found that craving, that false security turned me into someone I didn't like, put me into places I wasn't happy about and didn't give me the security I was needed. Whereas as soon as I've started, well, it's not as soon as I, I've done a lot of therapy and the relationship anarchy came in at the sort of tail end of my therapy journey, and I'd worked through all this stuff in therapy and then suddenly this gift came along.

That gave me a way to use so much of my therapy stuff in the real world. Mm-hmm. In a way that I [01:01:00] wasn't expecting. So I think I needed new ways to relate to people.

Nicole: Yeah.

Betty: I needed new ways to relate to myself. I came out of therapy knowing that I needed to be my own secure base and relationship. Anarchy is a way I.

I can keep being my own secure base and still relate to other people.

Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yes, yes. Interconnectedness, the yes and that we spoke to at the beginning. And I think for me, as you're speaking, it reminds me of my, uh, dissertation and the concepts around consent culture. Right? Because if I come to a lover and I say, wow, I love the sex that we're having.

This is so great. I wanna have sex for so long in our lifetime together. And, you know, tomorrow maybe I changed my mind, we haven't had enough consent conversations. But for those of us who have and have understood consent, we understand that you can say yes today and no [01:02:00] tomorrow, and that that's okay. And that's a part of your choice and that you're not obligated to give your body, right?

And so I think that in relational dynamics, it's a similar concept, right? Of. If you say you're going to do something like that, right. You are not always committed to that. It's an ongoing conversation of consent. I think my brain is now spinning the next question, which is, what is community obligation and care look like?

Right? At what extent do we take this to being like, Hey, I said I'd show up for you on your moving day, but like, actually like consent change. Ha ha, bye. You know, like, when does that, you know, like, so I, I'm, I'm thinking just about the limitations of that conversation because Right, if we say we wanna be with someone forever and it changes, we're entitled to do that.

Yeah. When do we hit a point where it's like, oh, you actually have community care and there's a bit more of an obligation here and you should not, you know, but I, I think it's though, sorry, I interrupted you. No, I won't. I'm, I'm, yeah. Just spinning box. I think it's though,

Betty: it's about if you say to someone, I'm always gonna want to have sex [01:03:00] with you.

That's one of those I. Or it's one of those always never statements that therapists tell you not to use. Right. Right. Whereas to change your consent on that is kind of valid. 'cause there's no way that you could always feel that way. Right? Yeah. Whereas I think if you say to someone, I'm gonna help you move, and then you decide you don't.

Yes. You've obviously got the consent to say, I made this commitment and I'm now not gonna turn up.

Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Betty: But I think they're two different things. 'cause I think agreeing to help someone is. Is an actual physical activity that is, can be achieved. Whereas saying you're always gonna love someone is just, it's a, it's a story, it's a fairytale.

Nicole: Right, right, right, right, right.

Betty: Does that make sense?

Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. And I think the reality is if you, you know, on the day of the moving and this example, you cancel with your friends say, I'm not gonna do that. There are natural consequences that will come to that kind of relating Right. Which is that person will slowly start to not trust you.

I mean, I obviously, if there is an extenuating circumstance, you know, but if [01:04:00] you kind of repeat that behavior of committing to a plan and then calling it back at the last minute like that, you know, I think you there natural consequences to trusting that that person will follow through and distancing, et cetera.

And so I think we, uh, yeah,

Betty: I think that's like going, you know, I know some people think that relationship panic is just like, you get to do whatever you want and fuck ev fuck everyone else. And the consequences. Right. So I think that's, this sorts of plays into that idea like, you know. Me saying that what my partners do or what my friends do when I'm not there isn't my business.

You know? It, it's, it, it it's sort of it, it's, uh, it's, I've lost my train of thought again. Sorry.

Nicole: You're good. Yeah.

Betty: Um, uh, yeah. Yeah. I can't remember.

Nicole: So that's, that's okay. No worries. I mean, yeah, we're hitting on things that won't have answers to, and so I think we're hitting into some of those nuance and, uh, we can go on to the next question, which is, how has relationship anarchy impacted your practice of intimacy?[01:05:00] 

Betty: I think I'm a lot more giving as a lover and as a human, um, because I now see my love as a gift as opposed to when I was in some of my other relationships, sex felt like an expectation or a chore. Yeah. You know, by the time I. Sort of, I want, I wanna say kept the house like I was a traditional wife, but I wasn't.

We, we both had jobs, but you know, by the time I, so I, I think I'd got into very transactional, relating

Nicole: Mm mm Yeah.

Betty: You know, if you want me to do this, then I'm, you have to do that. And it tip for tat all that stuff. And, and so practicing relationship anarchies really made me look at, I give what I can, give what I have to give and what I'm resourced to give.

And it's up to me to know when I'm giving too much and not to give too much. Mm. Um, and then I take what other people give [01:06:00] to me. But I also, like I said earlier, I'm really trying not, and it's hard because when you start to love people, do you expect. Them to be there. So it's that balance of like really liking and appreciating people and, and caring for them, but also really trying not to take them their love or their time for granted.

Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Betty: Um, which I think has been, which really helps to make every time I see people feel really special. Yeah.

Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm hearing the reference you made to the dying every day sort of Buddhist comment. Right. To know that no future moment is guaranteed.

Betty: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, it might, it's not just someone might change their mind.

I might get hit by a bus.

Nicole: Yes, yes.

Betty: The world might stop. Yes. There's like multiple ways that I don't make that next date. Mm-hmm. You know, so being conscious of that and, and just really trying to accept everything as. As a gift and not [01:07:00] as an expectation. Yes, absolutely. That's been really one of the best things that's come out of it for me, I think.

Yes. And just to have a bigger community of people who care about me.

Nicole: Oh yeah. Yeah. There's more resources. Again, I think when we have more resources of love, we are in a state of abundance where we feel less, uh, desire to control and possess. Right. If you are in a desert,

Betty: less narrative.

Nicole: Yeah. Less scarcity narrative.

Yeah, totally. So if you're in a dry desert and there's only one water source. And people try, are trying to drink from it and there's not enough, you're gonna say, absolutely. Fucking not. I'm trying to survive out here. No. Which is often I think the paradigm of only having one deep connection. Right? And so when you have multiple, it's a little bit more like, yeah, like go drink from the source.

I have an abundance. There's this big river over here, a waterfall over there. Like go, go take from it in a way that shifts the way that we relate with others. And so I think that the more that you have [01:08:00] fulfilling connections, regardless of whether that's sexual or not, but the more that you have fulfilling connections, the more, um, willingness you have to share with folks in that way.

Betty: Yeah. And also it means I try now when I'm with someone, I really try to prioritize. Being with them.

Nicole: Sure.

Betty: You know, making sure my phone is, is out of the way. You know, I try not to answer text messages while I'm with people. Right. And this is not just in people I'm like sexually into, I now try and carry that through to like all of my relating mm-hmm.

To really try and be, be more present and to, to be like, oh, the, this time someone's spending with me is a gift and I want to value it. Yes. So it's been, it's been really important. I, I think in all my relationships.

Nicole: Right. Yeah. I love that. I definitely resonate with the ways that in all of my relationships, how I show up as being consistent across all the different types of connection, which also means my standards across all the different connections are kind of the same, whether we're fucking or [01:09:00] not.

I have similar standards of like, reciprocity and et cetera that I expect. Um, I think what's interesting about, yeah, walking this line between the future is unknown. We, you know, we. I don't wanna grasp onto it too tightly because all we know is that change is inevitable. What I've found interesting for myself is the way that that can also bring up a very avoidant side of myself.

Because the more I'm like, well, anything could happen, anything could happen, anything could happen. The more my heart wants to go. Well, so Im not attached to that person. Right? And so I think it's really interesting how holding that nuance of the possibility of anything has also brought an avoidant part of myself very forward.

And so it's been interesting to like provide love and care to that part of myself and say, you know, just, just because it can happen doesn't mean it will. And that's what I try to tell myself too. It's like the same thing when I go rock climbing. Just because my gear could break and I could fall down and I could die, doesn't mean it will, right?

And so [01:10:00] what sort of safety checks have I put in this line, in this gear to feel secure that even though it is a possibility. It doesn't mean it's inevitable. Right. And so I feel the same way about my relationships just because my, you know, person that I'm relating to could at one day leave or no longer want to relate.

Like, how can I trust that we have built something, right? I've checked my gear with this person. I've had conversations about the quality of the rope that we're climbing with. Right. To be able to have a little bit of, you know, grounding in this, um, yeah. Balance.

Betty: Yeah. 'cause like, you know, I I, I have always thought in listening to the podcast, you climbing metaphor is a really good one.

Thank you. Um, but because it's, it's really true. Because relating, giving our hearts is dangerous. Yes. It is dangerous. And, you know, we, we wanna do it, but we have to take the right precautions and the right, not even precautions, but you have to do the prepared stuff. It's the same matter, like asking people to do the work.

Mm-hmm. You know, you [01:11:00] can't just turn up. And just start relating to people. Well, we can, and people do it all the time, but it's messy and chaotic.

Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Betty: Like if people spend a bit of time reading and studying and thinking about how they relate, like, I firmly think everyone should go to therapy, but that's, that's just, that's just me.

But yeah, I, I just think there's something really, in that metaphor you use is of just, you know, you do the dangerous thing, but you do the things to make it as safe as possible.

Nicole: Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. And you move at the speed of trust. Yeah. That's something that they've said in the psychedelic community, which I found very applicable to expansive relating, you move at the speed of trust.

Right? And so you, you take those few steps that I'm sure you took at the beginning of your journey to learn in that safe environment that you were at, that this is, this playground is safe, essentially. Right? Yeah. Like I can take a little fall, there's some rubber cushions at the bottom is okay. Right? And so you can keep playing.

And so I'm sure, um, in your journey, some of the things [01:12:00] that were maybe more sticky at the beginning now flow with a bit more ease, right? There's still always novel things that are sticky. Wow. Life, you know what I mean? But, but it, there's a bit more ease probably with those things Yeah. Than at the beginning.

Betty: Yeah. Yeah. Well, 'cause um, the person that I'm seeing has started seeing, uh, um, someone else. Um, fairly recently, and that's going really well. They're a really lovely human. I'm really enjoying that. He's seeing them and that was all fine. And then we went that he was out in a pub with some of his mates and she was there.

And that's the first time that I think we'd been like out all three of us. Sure, sure, sure. With his friends. And, uh, I had like a freakout. Yeah. Like, I didn't know. I didn't know. I didn't, I, I nearly canceled. I didn't know what to wear. Mm. I like suddenly was like so weirded out and so I messaged her and I was like, I'm so freaking out.

Like this is like, I just wanna [01:13:00] share this. 'cause I know if I share it then I won't feel so freaked out 'cause it's not just going round and round in my head. But yeah, just suddenly being in public. Suddenly then all these insecurities came up in me about what other people would think about me.

Nicole: Oh, totally.

Betty: In, when they see the two of us together, what are they gonna think? And then I was just like, what am I, what am I doing? But yeah, so it's really interesting how Yeah, just suddenly a new situation could come and just all of that stuff comes back. Yeah. Totally. Totally, totally.

Nicole: And at least we have a bit more awareness of it this time.

You know, like at least this time when I get activated and I can feel myself being stressed, I can really notice like, ah, that's some black and white thinking. Interesting. You know, like, I'm gonna take a step back. I'm not attached to these thoughts. I'm not attached to these thoughts. Yeah. And hence the beauty of being able to name it to someone that you trust.

Like, I'm noticing these things, I wanna share it with you so you can see me. And we're not gonna be attached to what these thoughts are. Yeah. And, [01:14:00] um, I'm, I feel very like that. Sense of what are people gonna see when they think of me reminds me a lot of what I felt, uh, and still do feel as a queer person anytime that I am.

Engaging in a very publicly, you know, visible, visible way of queerness. You know, I, I feel like I, I'm always queer, but there are ways where it's much more clear, um, rather than moments of passing with other people, right? Yes. Um, and so I, I hold that consciousness if I am in a conservative state of what you know.

Am I gonna be sexualized with my fem partners? Am I going to be, uh, judged? I don't even know. And so the, the poly feelings on top of that, of expansive relating feels very similar of like, are people gonna judge all of that? And so it's a part of the emotional work. Um, the double think that is common in minority cultures that are trying to navigate the majority culture dominance.

Uh, so it's a lot of emotional labor to go through. And so I'm glad that you feel safe to be able to, you know, share that with the other person and [01:15:00] then on the other person, you know, even with feelings of jealousy for them not to get activated by your share as a whole other lesson too. Yeah. 'cause that person can get activated if you say, wow, I'm scared that you two might go have sex somewhere, and it's bringing up fear for me, that other person can then be like, well then I can't do this.

Right. And now we've got two activated people, you know? And so, um, yeah. Learning to be able to name fears and not be attached to them and then work on them together as a group is really powerful.

Betty: Yeah. Yeah. I found that really, really helpful. Mm-hmm. Um. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, it was, I do find that just naming things and just being honest about how I'm feeling to people, you know, makes it so much easier.

Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. Even to just be like,

Betty: I'm coming. It just might take me a while to get dressed. Yes. Because I dunno what to wear. Totally, totally, totally, totally, totally.

Nicole: Just letting people in. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And well, the last question that I have for you is, what do you wish other people knew about relationship anarchy?

Betty: Well, it's not a mythical [01:16:00] unicorn. Bring it all back. It's an actual thing. Um, I think I want people to know that it doesn't just mean that you just get to be an asshole and do whatever you want. Whenever I work with someone. Who I know is part of the community. 'cause I work in the performing arts. So, um, yeah.

So whenever I work with someone is in the community, I'm really noticing that just the way they show up at work is different.

Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Betty: Uh, like I was saying earlier. So I think, I think what I'd like people to really know that is that relationship anarchy is really is about being able to ask for what you want clearly and kindly.

And being able to understand that people aren't always gonna be able to give you what you want, and that's okay. But there's maybe someone else out there who can give you what you want. [01:17:00] That's, for me, it's just, it's opened up a different way of turning up. Absolutely. I really do think it has been the sort of culmination of all my, the therapy.

Nicole: Sure. Yeah. Relational work in therapy. Yeah.

Betty: Yeah. Like it really has been, like after all that therapy I did, it really has given me a framework within which to practice the things that I learned in therapy.

Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Betty: About asking for what I want, asking for what I need, being clear learning to be my own strong base.

I suppose if I was, yeah, learning to be my own strong base and also that's allowed me to have so much more love. Give so much more love to so many more people. Yeah,

Nicole: yeah, yeah. The more we love ourselves, the more we're able to love others. Right. If you're critic, yeah. It's usually the people who are criticizing other people really strongly that have a very critical internal dialogue as well.

Betty: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It just feels, I feel so much more love and [01:18:00] I want to give so much more love and it just, yeah. In a world that wants us to be individuals and you know, if we're all individuals, you know, there's that thing, isn't it? Everyone on the street doesn't need a lawnmower. Mm. But yet everyone on the street has a lawn.

You could have one lawnmower and everyone could share it. No one's mowing their lawn all at the same time.

Nicole: What a concept. Right. But yeah.

Betty: But capitalism and all of that fun jazz has led us all to be really individualistic. Yep. And I think relationship anarchy is a really, is an active way that I can buck that every day that doesn't just involve me standing on a street and protesting.

Nicole: Right.

Betty: I feel like it's a way that I can protest these systems in a tiny way every day.

Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Betty: And that to me has been really, I importance. 'cause then, and I, I still constantly feel like I'm trying to make a better world.

Nicole: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Big,

Betty: big, bold claims. [01:19:00] But yeah,

Nicole: I mean, yes. I have no doubts in my mind.

The first big tenant, right, of feminism, like the personal, is the political. Yeah, so if we start from there, that means that every personal interaction that you have is imbued with political power. And so when you start to look at it that way, of course I think that there are so many systems that are.

Actively working in ways against us. 'cause I always wanna say broken, but they're not broken. They're actively working in the ways that they are to serve the people at the top. Um, and so when you look at that, it's like, wow, there is so much that is outside of my control and it can feel overwhelming and it can bring up a trauma response, you know, fight, flight, freeze, my favorite one, freeze in that moment.

I don't know what to do. Um, and so to. Trust that ripples do create, you know, the butterfly effect, right? Yeah. Uh, there is a lot of power when you slow down to be [01:20:00] loving and kind in your expansive community and those people that you first met, that raised your bar on what relating could look like in the ways that you're showing up in the workplace to be like, can you be more clear in your ask for your desires?

That impacts people. And so the more, yeah. Yes. The more that we have that, the more that I do trust in, in a better world, right? That's the part of anarchy, right? So many anarchists for years have envisioned another world as possible, another world as possible, and so we are bringing that into our political, everyday acts of relationships.

And I, I believe, if not in our generations, the future generations will feel the ripples of that, for sure.

Betty: Yeah. Yeah. Someone who has spent a lot of time standing on a street protesting, and a lot of my protest was filled from fear. And anxiety and rage. Mm-hmm. That's not sustainable. Yeah. Practicing relationship anarchy every day is sustainable because it's coming from [01:21:00] a place that isn't all about anger and rage.

Nicole: Mm-hmm. Softening.

Betty: Yeah.

Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So yeah, it's been really

Betty: important to me. And you know, your podcast, you know, you've really helped me just by sharing your stories, sharing other people's stories, just yeah, keeping, keeping sharing. It can feel as someone who doesn't have any in social media or anything can feel quite isolating sometimes.

So I find these, these things really important as part of my community.

Nicole: Yeah.

Betty: So to actually meet you and talk to you, like it feels just really, yeah, it really just does feel like a big community and that's, to me is really important.

Nicole: Political resistance together, right? We're stronger together. And so I'm so honored to have you, trust me, right?

To come onto the show and to be able to do this together. And so your voice is rippling through the consciousness of all the [01:22:00] listeners who are tuning in, right? Even those ripples, you know, they're gonna be thinking about you today as they listen and heard your stories, right? And so, I, it is a mutually empowering relationship.

'cause each time I learn from each guest, and so I'm, I'm very grateful to be in this space with you and to be able to process together and to dream together and to envision together and, and, yeah, it's, it's a joy.

Betty: Thank you so much, Nicole. Mm-hmm.

Nicole: Well, I'm gonna take a deep breath with you then as we're closing out together.

And then I wanna check in and see if there's anything else that you wanna say to the listeners. Otherwise I can ask you a closing question.

Betty: No, I think, uh, I feel like I've said everything.

Nicole: Beautiful. Be beautiful. Beautiful. Well then the closing question that I ask everyone on the show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

Betty: I wish that [01:23:00] people knew that kink in all its forms was more normal. Uh, yeah. I, I really do. I think that, I think kink has a lot, it's a lot to offer people and a lot of ways for people to open up, so. Mm-hmm. Um, literally and metaphorically. Oh yeah. But yeah. And also that there's, I wish that people didn't feel, 'cause this is something I still struggle with.

I wish people didn't feel shame about their kink. Mm.

Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Betty: So yeah, I want everyone to just fly their kinky freak flags.

Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. I feel like when I recorded with Dr. Elizabeth, she, she had mentioned some sort of research that said BDSM fantasies were in like the 70 or 80% range. It was very common.

Right. So it's so funny because if kink is defined as the non-normative, you know, non, I would say non-normative erotic. Play, right? Because it's not necessarily sexual, but if it's [01:24:00] non-normative, yet the stats are putting us into seventies and eighties, that's pretty nor, you know, so it's just funny. It's just funny.

It's, um, so the more that people can bring that into the light to talk about it, and I think we've talked on so many different ways where, um, the power dynamics of that kind of play are replicated outside in the world in different dynamics. And so the more that we can bring this into the light of this being kink and, and play with that and consciously have conversations about creating the energy that we want in a scene in a moment, the more that those skills are also present outside in the world.

Yeah. And we can live with less shame and. Communicate better. And so I deeply see how that's connected to relationship anarchy here and such a great invitation for people to open up their hearts more to what is possible in terms of play.

Betty: Yeah, yeah. Just try it. Yeah. You'll know pretty soon if you don't like it, so you know.

But I do think people. Shy away from things. So yeah, I just want, I want people to just fully [01:25:00] experience the range of things that our bodies can do.

Nicole: Absolutely. And feel absolutely. What a beautiful message to share with all the listeners today. Yeah. Well, it's been such a joy to have you on the podcast.

Thank you for joining me and all the listeners today.

Betty: Yeah, thank, thank you so much, Nicole. I've really enjoyed it.

Nicole: Yeah, so much fun. So much fun. So good. If you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast, and head on over to modern anarchy podcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode.

I wanna thank you for tuning in, and I will see you all next week.