220. For the Anxious Person’s Practicing Non-Monogamy with Lola Phoenix

Nicole: [00:00:00] Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host Nicole.

In today's episode, we have Lola join us for a conversation about unpacking and honoring the roots of jealousy. Together we talk about running on the hedonic treadmill, learning to gentle parent ourselves, and the vulnerability of expressing our desires. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy.

I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world. Tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration therapy, and I am also the founder of the [00:01:00] Pleasure Practice supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships.

Dear listener. It's such a dream to be able to bring these authors and these leaders in the field onto the show and get to share it with you dear listeners. So if you haven't read Lola's book or their new journal book, I highly recommend diving into that. If the conversation today resonates for you and you feel that poll, and also I have my psychedelic jealousy guide, the ebook on my website for free at modernanarchypodcast.com.

Hopefully, dear listener, you are feeling just the plethora of resources. I know. You know, there's still way more to be made in the world. Absolutely. And I'm here for that. I'm rooting for that. I am creating them and supporting the other people who are making them right, but also there are a lot of resources.

You are not alone. You are a part of a [00:02:00] wide global pleasure liberation movement. And with that, this is something that I've talked to you about again and again on the show. Liberation work is difficult. Unpacking any system of oppression is not easy, but it is well worth it. We do not give up in those moments of discomfort.

We do not give up in those moments of fear, right? When we are committed to that liberation, we acknowledge the fact that dismantling the internalization of these structures is gonna be challenging. But you know what? I see you in that journey. I am rooting for you in that journey, and I will definitely be dancing with you in the pleasure of your liberation.

Alright, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my [00:03:00] offerings and resources@modernanarchypodcast.com, linked in the show notes below. And I wanna say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters. You are supporting the long-term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content free and accessible to all people.

So thank you. If you wanna join the Patreon community, get exclusive access into my research and personal exploration, and you can add on over to patreon.com/modern Anarchy podcast, also linked in the show notes below. And with that, dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love and let's tune in to today's episode.

So the first question that I ask each guest on the show is, how would you like to introduce yourself to the listeners?

Lola: So I'm Lola Phoenix. I'm [00:04:00] the author of The Anxious Person's Guide to Non-Monogamy and the Non-Monogamy Journal. I am also the writer on a podcast and a column called Non-Monogamy Help, which is an advice column for people who are non-monogamous or polyamorous relationships.

I am non-binary. I am originally American, although not American anymore technically, and I live in Sweden currently.

Nicole: Mm. Yeah. Well, it's a joy to have you on the podcast today. Thank you. Thank you. Mm-hmm. It's good to be here. Yeah. I think the first question I wanted to ask was, you know, when you first heard about non-monogamy and polyamory, what was your response?

Because when I think back to mine and the first time that I heard it, um, it was a lover who was exploring polyamory, and he mentioned it to me and I. Looked him so sternly in the face and said, if you loved me, it would be me and only me, and I would never do this. And so I [00:05:00] walked out of the car and here I'm today in a very different space.

Yep. So I, um, I also work with psychedelics. I often talk about NoMy being a large paradigm shift of cultural narratives that you go through. And so I'm just curious for you, where did this trip, this journey start, this paradigm shift?

Lola: So I kind of began it through the avenue of being really, really interested in human sexuality.

Mm. Yeah. And I got interested in it because, so I had a lot of really bad experiences growing up. A lot of sexual abuse and. The way that I kind of responded to that was by learning as much as possible about sexuality in this sort of like very academic way. And I got really involved in communities like the sex tips community on Live Journal really involved in almost like that story, if you've ever seen sex education of like the, the other person, not Otis, but the other person who gives advice, I can't remember their [00:06:00] name.

Um, and just being kind of interested in it really academically. And then obviously like through those avenues you do come across polyamory, through non-monogamy and things like that. And I wouldn't necessarily say I was hugely interested in it at first, and I didn't necessarily have any. Anything against it.

But what was interesting for me was that my first ever partner that I had was a long distance relationship. Mm. And I met him online and that was like early in the days when people were still very skeptical of, of like online relationships and the idea that I could be in love with someone that I had never met in person.

I felt really, really defensive and really, really sure of how I felt about him because it was a really good relationship, didn't last for very long. Probably if anyone could have given me advice, even myself, to myself, I would've said, don't go there. Hmm. Because he actually dated my friend and they broke up.

'cause he couldn't, they couldn't do long distance. Hmm. So, but I kind of, you know, I ended up falling for him. It was a thing and it was actually a really amazing [00:07:00] relationship. I'm really glad it happened. But because I was so defensive of the idea that I was definitely in love with him, no one was ever gonna call that into question to me.

When I became interested in other people at the same time, it was like, oh, this is interesting. So I know I'm definitely in love with this person and nobody can tell me otherwise. But I also see being attracted to other people and then my sort of proclivity, I wouldn't necessarily say I'm someone, I'm not, you know, someone who says I'm never jealous or anything like that, but.

But as our relationship started falling apart, and he was like, 'cause he was gonna wait for me until he could come to the us. Mm. You know, that was the whole thing. Sure. And then he was like, oh, I don't think I can do this. And I was like, yeah, it's fine. You know, like, I don't care. And then he's like, oh, I've met someone here.

And I'm like, oh, okay, that's fine. I don't care. And then he's like, oh, I think I'm falling for this other person. I was like, okay, that's fine. And even though we kind of technically broke up mentally, I was just like, I still love him. Yeah. I'm fine with it. I didn't mind. And in a way that kind of bit me in [00:08:00] the butt a little bit because I would've kind of mentally broke it off had I, you know, had, I really had that inclination of being more a monogamous leaning.

And it wasn't until he was like, I can't tell you that I love you anymore because I'm falling for this other person and it makes me feel bad that, you know, the fit really hit the shand to say, you know, we were definitely broken up now and there was no other way that I could acknowledge that. So. It was kind of two parts.

It was, it was the, the emotional experience of like being really sure that I loved this person and no one was gonna tell me otherwise. And when you have that and then you do feel attraction for somebody else, then you're like, okay, I guess I don't only have interest in one person at one time and that's okay.

Mm-hmm. And then it was that combination of also being super into kind of learning about human sexuality, being introduced to the idea. And over time I just sort of thought, well, actually I want the freedom to be able to have more than one relationship. I'm actually really interested in that. And then getting involved in those communities.

But yeah, it [00:09:00] was, it was through those kind of two veins.

Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. What a story. Right? And we all come from different spaces. Our first trip on this experience, right? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm thinking about too. At least for me where I'm at now, it's been interesting. I definitely came into the field of psychology through being a sexual assault counselor.

And similar to you right? Like doing a lot of work of learning about sexuality. And so you're right, I feel like anytime you go into sex education and sex positivity, it's definitely you're gonna start to learn about more expansive ways of existing sexually. And so non monogamy, polyamory, it all starts to come together there.

It's your gateway drug. Yeah, exactly right. Suddenly you're reading sex ed Dawn, the ethical slut, and then you're like, whoa, everything I learned about sex was wrong. Yeah, exactly. Um, which I think is particularly interesting, at least for me. 'cause [00:10:00] I came from purity culture and I. Was deeply religious and I was condemning homosexuals until I found out I was one later in my life.

Right. Like the, whoops. Oh yeah. The whole journey. So I think, yeah. Where I'm at now, particularly when I'm working with clients, is I'm always thinking about the cultural context of these narratives. Oh yeah. How that impacts us, because I have struggled with jealousy from the very beginning bef even in monogamy.

Like I mm-hmm. When I was growing up, I was taught that, you know, 'cause of purity culture, uh, men and women should not be in the same room together because that's too tempting and lusting of the flesh. And so they will just come together and, and can't control themselves, which is such a problematic narrative to say, oh God, we have no control over ourselves.

But so then, yeah. What that created is a paradigm where when I was monogamously dating folks, I didn't even know the word polyamory yet. Um, when I was monogamously [00:11:00] dating, my boyfriend at the time was saying, oh, I'm gonna go get coffee with one of my friends from college. And I lost my shit because it was a woman.

Lost my shit. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Because of the cultural narratives. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Growing up, that taught me. That if they're gonna be alone together, it's gonna mean X, Y, Z. And so mm-hmm. As I've unpacked that and then learned about non-monogamy and unpacked that, I just, I continue to hold the ways in which jealousy is so deeply, uh, rooted in narratives that are often unconscious.

'cause it's so, oh yeah. Laden around us, where it's like, oh, if they're gonna go have sex with someone else, it means they're gonna leave me. It means that I'm not enough for them. Like, it's just, it's really fascinating when you really unpack a lot of the narratives that mm-hmm. Again, like fish and water, we don't even think about often.

It's just like the water where swimming in, you know?

Lola: Yeah. And I mean, I think it's also, when you think about it, a, we're a species that [00:12:00] is. Thrive due to social connection. Like we have to be socially connected. We fear social disconnection, and it, it activates the same pathways in our brain as pain does.

Yes. Yes. So we are motivated to stay connected. And then on top of that, we live in a society that encourages us to believe that we have to consume, to compete, to get a mate. Like, and I think that only adds fuel to the fire because it's like you have the society that's like, you have to be the best in order to have to find a loved one or to be loved or to be valued, or to be attractive.

Any of this, you have to be the best. Of course, we sell you the solution for which you can be the best in. And but that drive that idea of like, okay, you have to be, and the, even the, the way that we speak about things, when people talk about, you know, somebody's out of your league or rating people from a one to 10.

When human attraction is so complex and and differential that it, and it's not even about that, but we have that huge environment which people grow up in. And so they're constantly comparing themselves to other people, even if they're not in a [00:13:00] relationship or even looking for a relationship. So it makes total sense, and that's why I tell people, and that's the thing that really drives me nuts sometimes about.

Resources for people starting out in polyamory is just this idea that jealousy is just this sort of like demon that you exercise and then, and then you're done with it and then you're fine. And it's, it's some sort of trapping of mono mono centric culture. And it's like, well, it's a reasonable feeling.

It's not even illogical. It's very reasonable for you to have this fear. You're growing up in a society that's telling you all this stuff. You're fearing the loss of your partner, which is totally reasonable. So, you know, allow yourself to have these feelings. And it doesn't have to define you as a person, but it's, it, it is not surprising at all that people have these strong feelings.

And I think there's aspects to which that I definitely experienced jealousy. Mm-hmm. I think that, you know, if you, if you grow up in a neglectful home where you're not used to having attention, then that adds further like complexities to things. Totally. But you know, I think, I think. [00:14:00] Definitely jealousy is, is an absolutely normal thing.

And I think it, it's hard because I think that's the reason why so many people say, oh, I can't do polyamory, or I can never do non-monogamy. I'd get so jealous. And it's just like people get jealous and it's, it's not about that necessarily. So

Nicole: yeah,

Lola: it's, it's definitely about so many of those narratives that I think even if you don't grow up in a super puritanical society, I, I just don't think you're ever gonna be able to get away from those.

Nicole: Right. Exactly. Yeah. 'cause like you're saying, it's a part of our cultural narrative that my, my cat is eating plastic. Can you hear that? I can hear that. I'm gonna put the bag away. It's literally a bag of, it's okay. It's a bag of grapes. No, go ahead. Yeah.

That's hilarious. It was like, I can hear some crinkling, like, what is she?

Yeah, because [00:15:00] like if you, if you try to, like, if I try to talk back to my previous version of self right now and even the monogamous version and try to talk to her or even. Uh, the beginning of poly, like I just had such a lack of understanding that I have now of the historical context, right, of the ways that we didn't always do this monogamy thing.

This is not like, this is not what we've done since the dawn of time, right? Mm-hmm. And so part of that being an important. Piece of education and then learning about how much of the agricultural, like, uh, parts of our history where we started rooting down to farm and then created property and then the ownership of women.

Right. Like the whole piece of that helped me to kind of understand how we could get into what you're saying, this economy of, of love, where it's like you, you need one and the one and the one and the one. Mm-hmm. Even though historically men have [00:16:00] always had the opportunity to Oh yeah. Right. Like that's the important piece too, is that yeah, women were property and the men had the ability to go off and run and enjoy their freedom and had concubines and other sort of expectations to live out their sexual world.

And so we are now historically in that arc, in a period of trying to like. Salvage those concepts and then watching the ways in which, uh, the research will show just sexual death, erotic death of the relationship over a long-term period. Even Emily NGO's recent book about struggling with sexual eroticism in her long-term partnership, that is one of the most, mm-hmm.

Privileged in terms of releasing sexual shame. Mm-hmm. Privileged person, right? Mm-hmm. Like studies this, all that, and still, oh man, we gotta talk about this. And what I find fascinating too is like, even in my own personal experience, the ways in which, sure, having multiple partners has given me more [00:17:00] diversity in my connections.

But still, even in having like multiple partners, there's still that like sense of, um, it's the same person. You lose some of that excitement, that novelty. And even just yesterday I was, uh, I was kind of checking in with myself sexually. 'cause I feel like that's an important thing is like, where are you at?

Mm-hmm. With your dynamics and trying to check in. And I was, I was saying like, wow, I'm not feeling a lot of sexual desire lately. Like maybe I'm stressed out. Like I have these beautiful partnerships. Mm-hmm. But like, maybe I have too much work going on. Maybe I'm too invested in this stuff. And then mm-hmm.

I'm hanging out with a community last night, flirting with someone new, and they start touching me and my body immediately responds and gets so turned on and I'm just still waking up this morning going, damn. Like, even though I have multiple partners, the novelty of a new person mm-hmm. Just sets my body on fire.

And it's wild. Where is that level of conversation in some, in our, in our cultural context of sexuality? Yeah. [00:18:00] Right.

Lola: Yeah. I mean, there is something, I think it's called hedonic. There's something called the hedonic principle or hedonic treadmill. We talk a lot about it in like gem culture, right? Mm-hmm.

Because there's, there's always this, you know, I'm, I'm kind of a g rat in, into that aspect of life and, um. There is a, a big desire a lot of times in within that culture of like getting to the perfect this or the perfect. That's really intense and it's kind of a reminder to folks because. You will have a certain kind of limit to happiness in a way.

And that's kind of one of the reasons why, like, I, I don't necessarily pursue happiness, but I pursue wonder instead because at a certain point, like you will get used to any type of happiness. Whether it's like, okay, I've got five partners, or you have $5 million, or you have Right. You know, any, any kind of pinnacle of human existence that we believe is a pinnacle, you are going to reach a kind of hedonic.

Like almost death or a kind of like [00:19:00] maximum amount of pleasure you can receive from that. And then you're sort of at like, okay, I'm used to this until something new or something different happens. And I think that that's, that makes a lot of sense because we're adaptive beings, right? Like and to a certain extent, probably our ancestors going back and bath, you know, back and back didn't necessarily have a lot of positive things happening for them.

They had much more challenging and much more difficult lives. And we also have that thing where, I'm not sure if you've heard of this, but basically we experience negativity a lot more strongly Oh. Than we experience positively. So like if you lose 20 quid or $20, you will feel that more strongly than if you gained 500.

Right? Because you feel the loss a lot more intensely. And that has to do with as well, the way that we have adapted hedonic adaptation, I think is what it's actually, yeah, I remember. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that that makes sense because it's, it's to some aspect like. Maybe it's part of the reason why we've always, we've mostly been a kind of wandering [00:20:00] nomadic species of like going to different places, doing, doing different things.

But I think, like, I think there's always something new about people to explore and there's always different aspects and different, you know, even human sexuality is such a wide ranging and varying thing. Yeah. And sometimes it's just about like, go, you know, making that effort to, to do other things and to change things up.

I think it's the same thing with, you know, if you get sick of where you live or you get sick of the friends that you have, like there's billions of people in the world. Mm-hmm. Like just go out and meet new people. But yeah, I think, I think that makes sense. The problem I think is less that. Some people are kind of in long-term relationships, but the more the problem is the narrative that's kind of sold to us, which is that all you have to do is reach this goal and then you'll be happy.

All you have to do, you know, once you're rich, you'll be happy. Once you have the ideal body, you'll be happy. Once you have this, you'll be happy and you'll just be happy all the time and you'll never have any problems. Yeah, and I think that's somewhat of a unrealistic kind of expectation that's [00:21:00] sold to us.

So maybe it's part of just reframing like what you look for. Like are you looking for sure. Just being happy all the time, or maybe there's some other ways that you know, you can reframe it.

Nicole: Yeah, exactly. That's what I was hearing the frame, right? The mm-hmm. Eroticism and sexuality. I'm exploring with my long-term, um, partners.

You know, it doesn't have that same sort of immediate, you know, response that novelty does. But there's such a beauty to the longevity of the relationship of who this person is and all the things that we've explored together and the depths of our intimacy. And so, yeah. I find them to be different lanes, right?

Mm-hmm. Of the novel stimulus. Whoa. You know, and, and the whoa of what we've built over the years, and I guess. For me though, I just wanna scream for the amount of people who aren't in the space of having the options to play in all of this. The people who are in the paradigms of, if I'm a good person, it means that I marry one person and I am with them [00:22:00] for the rest of my life.

And then when they come into my office and they say, Hey, like I'm really struggling with desire. I'm really struggling. I'm really struggling. I'm not feeling it. And I'm like, have you explored other people? Right. And that doesn't even come into the possibilities of worlds because I love existing in a world where I am building long-term multiple relationships with people and have the novelty to get like, Hey, let's go and have this new stimulus experience too, right?

Mm-hmm. I just think that sometimes our boxes of what is possible because of our cultural context are. Way too small. And then people are blaming themselves like, what's wrong with me? What's wrong with me? And I'm like, the box that you're in. Not yet.

Lola: Yeah. You know, even if, even if they, if they have that conversation, 'cause so many people don't even have that conversation 'cause they think you shouldn't talk about it.

That it should just work its way out. That it should magically come like a film and, and you know. Yeah. Some people don't even. Open that [00:23:00] conversation up because they're too afraid of what it might mean. And, and that is really sad, I think. Mm-hmm. Even if you don't necessarily wanna be, you know, I, I, I, I run across people all the time in like polyamory advice subreddits and things like that of like mm-hmm.

I'm like, okay, if, if you wanna have new sexual experiences, you don't necessarily have to jump straight into polyamory either. Mm-hmm. Like, there's a range of options that you could do. Sure. Like, you, you can try lots of different things without immediately opening everything up. Like, not that that's necessarily a bad thing, but.

There's lots of other options for you out there. You don't necessarily have to just go with that. I think my favorite thing when I was living in, uh, I grew up in Virginia and I lived in the south for quite a long time. Mm-hmm. And I went back to North Carolina before I left the US and was working in a health food store.

And one of my favorite things ever was when people would call and ask about like the natural supplements we had that were replacements for Viagra.

Nicole: Mm.

Lola: And I would just like lead them into a like side conversation of like, well, have you tried like vibrators and stuff like that? Sure. You don't [00:24:00] necessarily need this stuff.

Maybe you could try something like, probably wasn't the best for the actual business I was working for, but I really loved like having those convers like honest conversations with them about like, okay, you're clearly struggling. An herbal supplement is something you could take, but equally, I think you could also try these other things.

Sure. Absolutely. That was a lot of fun. But yeah.

Nicole: Yeah, and that's where, again, I think about the cultural context of where someone's coming at. Right. Again. Oh yeah. If you have never thought about watching porn 'cause that was wrong. Yeah. Whoa. What a world do you get to dive into if you have never touched a vibrator, a butt plug, anything.

Whoa. What a world do you get to dive into? If you've never had a threesome, an orgy, whoa, what a world. You know? And then if you have done all of that, mm-hmm. You know, then there's still space to play, of course. But it's like, yeah. Whoa. I just, I guess I'm just still reveling [00:25:00] in my, my experience from last night of just the novelty.

The novelty being yeah. So, so, such a key piece of what is important at least. And I think, yeah. I think that I, we, I hold the cultural context, particularly for me as a woman in the feminist arc here of the realities that women were specifically taught to not be like sexual when they had any sort of sexual desire.

It was something that could literally have you be personalized because you had a problem that you were wanting sex, that that is not. And I'm gonna put air quotes scientifically at the time. Yeah. That meant that you were crazy and I'm using that word intentionally. Yeah. And so, man, Lola, I'm so curious as a society where like women's sexuality and all of our sexuality is gonna move as we dismantle some of these things.

Yeah. 'cause I guess for me, I was just thinking like, cool, I'm gonna have two partners, three, whatever, you know, the [00:26:00] diversity is gonna be enough. And I'm still finding that, wow. Like I need novelty of people. Like I do need novelty of people, not just long, like it's, oh man. But if, again, if I, I couldn't have said that to my younger self because Oh yeah.

I, I wouldn't have had any of the paradigms. Um, to understand this and not even close.

Lola: It's, it's so ironic as well, especially because if you look further back into history, the, the idea was that women were too sexual. Yeah. And that was why they couldn't be in charge of anything, which is just, it's just ironic the way that, especially a lot of the things, these white men, a lot of the things that we think are like, so a lot of the things we think that are so like ingrained and natural and that are just not at all.

And I think that it's, it's gonna be interesting because there, there are some elements that I personally think are still very much hangovers from, from cultural context that still get pulled through and still get sold as feminism. Like, I think that like. [00:27:00] One thing I really want people to, to do, or especially women and, and like people who are in, in the position is like, do question things and like, what, what, who does this benefit is?

Especially in like, this may be something that people disagree with me about and I totally understand. I get the sort of encouragement culturally for women to be afraid, but at the same time. Like I understand emotionally where that's coming from. Believe me. I understand. Like I, I picked an all women's school because I was terrified of men.

I had experiences with sexual assault and I also had growing up, basically, someone who raised me said they invented the perfect way to raise a child, make them so afraid of the outside world, that they would never leave the house. Whoa. And it worked. Whoa. Like honestly. I was, other kids were going outside, you know, you know, leaving their rooms and sneaking out at night.

I was like barricading myself in my parents' room when they were gone. Yeah. So I had this like, total fear experience constantly and, and pushing outside of that was really [00:28:00] hard. And so what I don't want is for people to be so afraid that they don't live their lives. And I, I think it's really important, especially when we look at, you know, the way that COVID I impact impacted society and the way that many people were also afraid and that led them to not doing things like, you know, getting, prevent the preventative vaccines and, and mm-hmm.

I think it's important to remember that like, we may be afraid of something, but if it, if it. Who does it benefit? Who does it benefit for? For women to be afraid to leave their house, for women to be afraid to go outside at at night. And if you look at like the statistics actually, like women are so much more likely to be abused and hurt by people they know.

Yep. You're very, men are actually way more likely to be attacked by a stranger. And so this narrative, like of ideas, like be afraid all the time. Be afraid all the time. Be afraid. Don't leave your house like I, who does that really benefit? When you think about it, like does it really benefit? Like I understand the emotions totally, like beyond me could understand the emotions of [00:29:00] being afraid to leave the house.

But I also think like stuff like that still gets sort of encouraged and, and taught as feminism of like, yeah, you should be afraid. It, we should encourage these narratives of like, women are, are this way and men are this way and, and we should, you know, that gets reinforced even by people who, who see themselves as progressive.

And I just think, like, think about who anything benefits, like whenever you have this kind of, especially if you have this innate sort of what feels innate and what feels natural. Like really think about like, where does this come from? Yeah. Is this based in, in reality, is this based in anything? Is this really the way human beings have been for a long time?

Because especially in human sexuality, that is something that holds so much power. Just the idea that this is how people are naturally and that you should be this way, because that's how it's always been. And it's very rarely, in my experience, at least, that anything that people think is something we've done since the dawn of time is actually something we've done since of time.

[00:30:00] Right,

Nicole: right,

Lola: right,

Nicole: right. Which I think in terms of fear and innate sense and protection, it reminds me back to our conversation about jealousy. Right? I, yeah. Man, my beginnings of jealousy. I would've said, I'm protecting myself by not going into non monogamy. I'm protecting myself and trying to stay safe here.

You know, when these feelings mm-hmm. Are coming up. And it was so innate. It was. So, again, if I go all the way back to literally just the idea of my boyfriend at the time, hanging out with a platonic female, I was losing my shit. You know? Yeah. So unpacking that to realize that, wow, they can do that. And then I'm still secure, which at the time Yeah.

That they're not gonna have sex. Right. And then to go into a space where I'm like, oh, okay. My partners can have sex with other people. I think that there, we have to differentiate between the different feelings that are going on in there, which I usually talk about the cultural narratives. Mm-hmm. And then actual time [00:31:00] and energy, because there is a world in which.

Jealousy coming from a space of true lack of time and energy. When I was talking to, yeah, Jessica Fern and I was talking about the ways, how, when I, you know, when I was a child and my mom was pregnant with my sister and had birth, and I said, put her back in the, in the belly. I don't wanna share any time with you.

You know, like, no way. You know, it was all the jealousy of time and energy, which I've realized the beauty of sharing now. And like Jessica Fern said, you know? Yeah. And that's. Great. And if that same parent has eight children, then you actually Exactly. Are truly losing big times of energy. And so when I'm working with my clients in the pleasure practice, I'm trying to talk to them about, okay, are you actually losing time and energy that you need?

Can you find out other people, can we get you to ask for what you need in this partnership? Get you empowered to literally say, I need this quality time together. I want to do this and that, and feel [00:32:00] empowered versus mm-hmm. The scripts of meaning making, which I particularly remember being with one of my fir, you know, first partners and snuggling in bed with him.

Were like completely snuggled, loving each other. Mm-hmm. And we start talking about how the previous night he had had my metamor over and they were sleeping together in the same bed. And I started crying. Just absolutely. I know, right? Absolutely. Crying. And, and when I look at it now, it's like. That man was holding me in that moment.

It wasn't like I was losing him. Yeah. It wasn't like I didn't have enough time. It was literally the narrative of the fact that there was another woman that had slept in this bed. Right? Mm-hmm. Which means what? What that like I'm not the only one. I'm not special because of exclusivity. Right. So mm-hmm. I try to differentiate that between a partner, literally not having enough time and space to see you where versus exactly.

Me actually being with that human in that very moment and still crying because that was a narrative of exclusivity and meaning [00:33:00] making. And those are very Exactly. Spaces of jealousy.

Lola: Exactly. And it's, it's really hard to even differentiate that if you just. Immediately go, I'm jealous. That's bad. I need to get rid of this.

Right? Like that was my experience with, with these feelings was that it actually came from a reasonable place. But I was like, no, no, I'm just jealous. I just need to get rid of this. I just need to deal with this on my own. And like one of my first technical experiences of polyamory, I say technical 'cause we weren't officially dating, right?

Ah, sure. But I was talking to this guy, I was moving to the uk. I was really interested in him. And randomly he's like, oh, did you check my Facebook? And I'm like, no. And so I looked on his Facebook and it says, so and so is dating. So-and-so. He had never mentioned this person ever once before. So I was, I was like, okay.

Um, immediate feelings of jealousy, but also immediate. From what I had learned from all the beginner polyamory resources I read just like no bad feeling. No, no, you must be okay with everything. Oh yeah, we gotta be chill. Yeah. [00:34:00] So I was like, oh, okay. Um, that's interesting. Hey. And then I looked on her profile.

She looked like pretty cool person, so I was like, Hey, maybe I should add her as a friend and we can like have a chat and you know, she seems really nice. Yeah. And he was like, no, no, don't do that. And I was like. Why? Yeah, why is that? He's like, well, I just prefer if you meet in person first. Now, immediate.

Immediate. No. Like now, I would be like, no, I am. I would've even added her without even asking him. I would've just added her. But basically to, to, to make a long story short, he had never told her anything about me. Oh. And, but he, but he had, he told me that she not only knew about me, but that she had offered to have a threesome with us.

Wow. So. I ended up not even meeting up with him because there was a whole other side bit about like, basically he was just randomly rude for no reason. And I felt like, why do I have to keep confronting you about being randomly rude? I don't like this. So I decided not to meet up with him. He ended up blocking me.[00:35:00] 

Um, and then I didn't know what to do. I didn't know what to, when it came to this because I could still see her profile. So what do I do? Like I don't wanna be jealous, so I didn't do anything. Oh, no. I ended up running into her at a party. Of course, of course. And it was so, it was so funny. Luckily he was like abroad.

I ended up running into her at a party and of course I thought she knew who I was. Oh. So I was like, oh God, oh God. So I was just like, I guess I just, I'm just gonna go up to her. Let's get this over with. So I was like, hi. And she's like, hi. And I'm like, do you know this guy? And she's like, I know many of those guys with that very common name.

And I was like, he is in this country now. And she's like, oh yeah, I know him. How do you know him? And I'm like, oh God. Oh no, I'm not good at. I'm not good at all at coming up with lies on the spot. Like I will just tell the truth. I could never be a murderer because if the police came by and they were like, where's this person?

I'd be like, oh, blah. So I just immediately was like, oh yeah, we were sort of dating, but not really. But then he, you knows, told me and he said, you know about me and you know, for threesome [00:36:00] main, he walked me and, and then she was like, okay. And it was, it was wild. So, but all of that, like, I didn't say anything for so long.

I put up with so much for so long because I was like, no, this is jealousy. Jealousy, bad. Get rid of jealousy, don't deal with it. And you can't, like jealousy can sometimes come from reasonable stuff. Yes. Like in another relationship I had, I had a partner where I really wanted us to sit together and spend quality time and we didn't, like we, we didn't at all e ever, like if I wanted to like cook dinner for him, I'd have to like, you know, you don't wanna have to like force someone, you know what I mean?

Spend quality time with you, of course. And. When he ended up like bringing a partner over once, he literally like sat with that partner, was watching stuff with them, and I was immediately Oh, horribly jealous. And like literally, oh my God. The next morning when she was staying over the next morning, he was complaining to me via Messenger, which he never, he, I always initiated our [00:37:00] conversations on Messenger.

Mm-hmm. So that hurt. Yeah. And then he was sort of like, oh, I just, I woke up early to go and get fresh fish to make sushi for this person. Oh. And I'm mad 'cause it was closed and I, it was like that scene and kill bill when, when that, when the lights go off. And I was like, eh. And I was, I was just so jealous.

But that was reasonable. Mm-hmm. Like that was coming from a unmet need. I'm seeing like, there's nothing, there's nothing more painful in my experience than seeing a partner meet a need that you've really had with someone else. Because you originally, like, you just mentally go, oh, they can't do it because they're just not capable of it.

But then when you see them do it with someone else, it's like, it's so incredibly painful, and that is a reasonable feeling of jealousy. That's not you being insecure, that's not you hating yourself. So it's really important to be able to distinguish between those, and you can't distinguish between those.

If you think jealousy is just this, right, you know. This shackle of non of of monogamous centric [00:38:00] society that you just have to purge yourself from. Mm. And then you're fine. And then there's no more problems and you never have any jealousy anymore.

Nicole: Yeah. Ugh. Exactly. Yeah. I'm hearing again the difference between the narratives of exclusivity, right?

Yeah. And then the actual time and energy like this partner Yeah. Was not giving you the time and energy that you were craving. Exactly. And I think Exactly. I think that we understand that level of jealousy when it comes to other aspects of our lives, you know? Mm-hmm. Say if we are in a mono centric worldview, right?

Say your partner takes on a new job and that new job is taken up all of their time and they no longer have. Space to do the date night with you Again, that's not, we don't even get into the narratives of exclusivity 'cause it's not part of the storyline there. Yeah. We immediately go, Hey, you are not showing up for me in my time and energy here.

And so we understand that and we start to work in that space. So you're so right. I think that, yeah, if the narrative is absolutely, like jealousy is wrong, try to get rid of it. You know, it's like no [00:39:00] jealousy is an indicator of a need or a storyline that needs to be examined. And so bringing more curiosity into that so that you can get clear on what it is that you need to either rewrite mm-hmm.

Or ask for, or learn to find in other people. Right. And all of that. Mm-hmm. Sort of unpacking is, is a deep process of curiosity that I think, you know, part of my work with psychedelic therapy, you know, I think about the set and setting. So the mindset when you're going into the psychedelic is gonna.

Absolutely changed the experience, right? So again, the narratives were telling us about exclusivity and sacredness and all of that, but it's also about the setting. Mm-hmm. If you take a drug and you're standing in the middle of a busy highway, you are not gonna have a great time. And so when you took the drug of non-monogamy and this dude had not told the other person about you, had not told you about that person, you're gonna get off that drug and say never again.

Exactly. Never [00:40:00] again. Versus being in a set and setting where someone would say, Hey Lola, there's someone I'm thinking about. I wanna check in with you. Actually, we're thinking about putting this on Facebook. How do feel? Are you being hurt? You know? So again, the setting of the drug Exactly. Is so radically important.

Lola: Definitely. And I, I think too, it's, it's also important to remember that like. The story that you tell yourself is, is the most important thing, right? Oh, yeah. And like, the problem that I have with a lot of the things that people end up feeling when they read a lot of beginner resources or when they get right into the community, is that mm-hmm.

They just tell themselves that, you know, okay, I am this mono centric person. I've come from this specific society. I'm a jealous person. Or, you know, all these sorts of things. Like they characterize, one of the things that I think is, is so important as well is, is not like you have feelings. You have these emotions of course, but they're not like you as a per, like, they aren't, they don't define you as a person.

They can just be [00:41:00] feelings that you have. And like, I feel like half of what I do is just giving people permission to feel like, hey, it's, it's okay to feel you're not a bad person for having feelings. Yep. And that's okay. Yep. Um, because I think like. It's so easy, especially, you know, you have a lot more to prove sometimes.

And, and that can be the, the con, the complication of that polyamory brings to the table. Right? Sure. Is that you, you have no cultural scripts for this. Yep. You have absolutely no idea. You know, no. Even media, like there's no, not that I know of. I mean, maybe I'm, you know, I'm not watching the right media, but No.

Yeah, I can't think of a single positive. Representation of polyamory or open relationships, maybe. I think, and someone mentioned the expanse, but I, so that might be one. It's not enough. Not enough. Yeah. Regardless, it's not enough. So you have no cultural script. Yeah. For which to model this off. You don't know what success looks like.

And so you're kind of like, in this brand new environment, of course [00:42:00] you're gonna be terrified, of course you're gonna be anxious. And then on top of that, it's almost like you have to prove that you can do this, right? Mm-hmm. To yourself, to the world, to a partner, to new people. And that just makes. That just makes everything super complicated.

And I think like we have narratives that are similar, which I try to bring in. Like even you just mentioned that, you know, the idea when you, when you had your mom had another kid of like, I want, you know, I want more time with you. I always kind of bring that back to, to other, because I think that's the easiest way people can understand is like, you don't have another kid 'cause one isn't enough.

Right. But equally, you, you understand that you only have so much time in a day. Yes. And so you're only going to be able to divide your time. You understand that different kids have different needs. Right. And just because you one kid might need more time doesn't necessarily mean you love that kid more.

So there's a lot of, a lot of ways to bring in those narratives that are very similar. But it is hard because you, you have every reason Yeah. To be anxious out of your mind and yet at the [00:43:00] same time, you're sort of expected to be cool with everything. Right. And I think that's, that's the thing I struggled with the most is like, to be totally honest with you, like if I'm with a partner.

And I'm with a metamor and they're like the, the idea that I could be jealous, right? The idea that I could have an emotional reaction makes me so uncomfortable. Mm-hmm. That like. I could not, I, I might not even have the, the discomfort I have that I could have, the reaction makes me just as uncomfortable.

Yeah. As, as the reaction could. Yep. So like, you know, even the, the anticipation that you could feel jealous, right. That, you know, it all kind of convalescence into this. Big thing. So I just think like, yeah, people kind of need to give themselves a little bit of grace, a little bit of understanding, a little bit of, you know, you're gonna have a lot of strong feelings, you're doing a lot of new things.

That's, that's very different to what you've experienced before. And you know, you would never, like no one in this world, if you were, [00:44:00] if you were gonna say, oh, I'm gonna go skydiving tomorrow. No one in this world would think it was silly for you to be nervous.

Nicole: Mm.

Lola: Even though plenty of people, you have a cultural narrative of skydiving.

Like, you know, that people skydive, you have, you know, that people live and skydive all the time, and yet people would be totally, totally not surprised if you were like, you know what? I'm kind of scared. I'm scared shitless. Really? Yeah. Um, because, you know, that's fine. So I think we should have the same kind of approach in a way is like, okay if, even though we don't have, even have remotely the same cultural scripts as for, for polyamory as we do for skydiving, but expect that you're going to be nervous.

Expect that you're going to be anxious, expect that you're gonna have strong feelings. And instead of trying to prevent them from happening, because I think that's where most people try to make rules, right. And try to control the situation to prevent that from happening. Yeah. It's like, let it happen.

You'll be okay. Yeah. It'll be fine. Right. And, and things do eventually get, you know, better and calmer once you've established that. I mean, it's [00:45:00] like almost everything. Like yes. When you move to a new city, you're terrified. Like, but it gets better, like things do eventually. It's kind of like, almost like the hedonistic adaptation, it's kind of like adaptation of any kind, like exposure.

You adapt exposure therapy. Yep. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Nicole: Yeah. For me, as a rock climber, that's always been my metaphor, personally. 'cause the first time I went up that wall I said, are you fucking kidding me? I have to let go of the, the rope now and come down what, you know, to, to, you know, five, six years later now I'm much more comfortable getting to the top of the wall.

And then you start lead climbing and outdoor climbing and the fear's still there and I'm still working through it, you know? But. So much stronger than what I was doing at the beginning. And I think that's always why I've talked about it as a practice is I'm practicing this, I'm getting better at it. I'm practicing love, I'm practicing a monogamy.

Right? These are things that I'm getting better at each day because yeah, I'm not anymore crying in bed when my [00:46:00] partner tells me that someone else slept over anymore, but I definitely did when it happened. Right? And so, yeah. So that, that journey there, and so you're so right. It reminds me a little bit of, um, panic attacks as a therapist, right?

Often clients will start to. Feel the tightness in the chest and then want to control it, and then also panic that it's gonna create the whole experience. And that's actually how we get into the snowball of a panic attack is the Exactly. Oh no, this is how, oh no. Oh no. Oh no. Oh no. Right. Versus, yeah. Hey, I'm noticing this.

Yeah, totally. I'm noticing this. I'm actually gonna take the deep breath. And so I think, like you're saying, it's so important to have practice mindfulness, right? Mm-hmm. And be able to notice that, hey, this feeling of jealousy is coming up. I'm actually starting to cry. I'm actually starting to feel dysregulated, but I'm not attached to that.

That doesn't define who I am. When I get exactly scared to speak in front of a crowd, which happens every single fucking time, I don't then go, well, I can't [00:47:00] do this. This is impossible. But you know, there actually probably was in the past narratives where that is what I told myself is, I can't do this. I can't do this.

But instead I can notice, okay, wow, I'm feeling this tightness in my stomach. I'm feeling the tightness in the chest. That makes sense. Because this is a very meaningful experience and I wanna speak well today. Mm-hmm. It makes sense that I'm feeling jealous and scared because of the cultural narratives, because this is someone I love and they're very important to me.

And I'm not gonna beat myself up for having this reaction. I'm gonna notice it. And now I'm gonna ask for what I need, which is, hey, before I go on stage, maybe I'm gonna take a couple of deep breaths to myself. Hey, dear partner that's telling me about the night you just had with someone else, please sit down with me and hold my hand.

Can we take a couple of deep breaths together? Can we maybe go for a walk because this energy is a lot in my body and I need to release it. Hey, can we spend time together after your experience? That I feel reconnected in our relationship. [00:48:00] Right. So it's the more that we can have that mindfulness to notice and then actually be empowered enough to ask for what we need.

Mm-hmm. Whole different world.

Lola: Yeah. And I think it, it's a shift in how you see anxiety because Right. I know, like, I mean, I had generalized anxiety and social anxiety and like OCD for such a long time growing up. And like, first, my, my, my first kind of imagination of my anxiety is like the Ian Boulder that I'm having to shove up.

And every time I get a panic attack, I see it as a failure in my part. Mm. And then I've gotta push the boulder. And then that shifted and I was like, okay, it's not a failure that I'm gonna have a panic attack. I saw it as kind of like, I, it's not a failure if I get a cold. Like it's just part of, part of the way my body reacts.

And then I kind of saw my anxiety as almost like this Gollum, right? This like inner voice that's like, eh, eh, eh. But even that wasn't necessarily helpful because here I am trying to logic with it. Here I am trying to argue with it and trying to like, you know, and then I kind of shifted even more [00:49:00] to my anxiety is actually like the little version of me.

That is scared and is crying out for help and is, is just wanting me to be safe. Mm-hmm. And it's kind of this combination of like, like fur from Mad Max and like Sure. This little version of me that's just like trying to protect me, right? Mm-hmm. It's like, you know, and, and my therapist said something amazing to me one day.

I was just like, because I had mad health anxiety, like I was so, like if I got a tiny little pain somewhere, I was like, I'm gonna die. I have a disease, I have something, I'm gonna die. And like, you know, even, it doesn't even, like, even if I didn't look on WebMD, I knew I was gonna die. I didn't even need to do that.

And so I kept, I said to my therapist like, why do, like, why do I go to this extreme level? And she's like, well, you have big feelings, so your brain is going well, this is a big feeling. Yeah. There must be something big going on. Yeah. And I was like. Holy crap. That's what's happening. Because I literally thought I was just doing this to myself to torture myself.

Mm. But no, [00:50:00] actually, it's like your brain has this big feeling. You can't calm yourself down. So it's like, okay, there must be something terrible wrong. And then as you said, like that feedback loop comes in. Yeah. But shifting it to this like idea that like, okay, this is little me crying out for help. Yeah.

It's trying to protect me. And, and like the biggest thing, like I don't have anxiety anymore. Like I've mm-hmm. It's, it's amazing. Like, I'm so happy that I've been able to Yeah. To cope with it. Yeah. And a big part of that is, is that self-compassion. Absolutely. Stop trying to like, stop trying to logic with it.

So, and I do that, like when I see people on polyamory advice forms and they're saying, I know I'm being, I know I'm being logical. I know I'm being dumb. I'm like, stop it. Stop it. You're not being dumb. This is you trying to protect yourself. And then what you gotta do is you gotta look at your, you know, the little version of yourself.

You know, you can figure out what it needs, but sometimes it's just scared. And you gotta go, you know what, you don't have to fight for us anymore. Yep. You don't have to protect us anymore. I got this. Yep, yep. And no matter what, you know, [00:51:00] no matter what happens, I remember like the first time I started, you know, if you know the panic spiral, you know how it get you snowball and it gets bigger and bigger.

Yeah. And I remember the first time I ever stopped it as like, I, I was, I, I had this kind of catastrophizing thought. I was like, oh, I'm gonna get in trouble. I'm gonna get kicked outta the country, blah, blah. And I just looked in the mirror and I was like, you know what, maybe that will happen. I can't say, but I'll be okay.

I'll figure it out. Right. And I just stopped myself and I, and I like started crying actually. Beautiful. Because I was like. Oh my God. Like, I, I stopped this. Yeah. I'm fine. Yeah. I'm not freaking out anymore. And that, you know, you can't, I feel like the biggest pathway to that, maybe there's another pathway that I don't know about.

I don't know everything, but the biggest pathway to that I think is just having that self-compassion. Mm-hmm. Like, be kind to yourself when you start to have a big feeling. And, and I, I've learned so much, honestly, from like gentle parenting videos. Sure. Actually, yeah, sure. Learning how to, like [00:52:00] gentle parent myself of like, oh, I'm in my dysregulated state.

I'm not capable of learning right now. You're right. I need to go. You know, like even though I have a developed brain. I actually probably haven't learned to regulate my emotions. Mm-hmm. And that whole thing, like the self-compassion, learning how to regulate, learning how to like, just say, Hey, we got this.

Yeah. We're okay. Has imp like, not just in polyamory, like every aspect of my life, being able to have difficult conversations. Yeah. Being able to like, you know, sit in my Swedish for immigrants class and like sit with people with very different opinions to me. Mm-hmm. And not. Immediately go into that. Like, sure.

You know, and honestly, now I feel my anxiety more. Mm. Because I, because I'm not feeling anxious all the time when I ended up, like, I, I ended up losing my job at some point, like later on in my, like, moving your journey. And I like, woo. I felt that like sure, I felt it. And then I, and then I could bring myself back down.

But yeah, that, that self-compassion is so important [00:53:00] and, and that I feel like is, is very lacking. And that's something that I really try to bring to anything for people who are new to polyamory is like, please, like, have compassion. It's okay. It's, it's really okay. Because I don't think there's a lot of tolerance for it sometimes in the community.

Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it makes sense. If your nervous system has become more regulated, that then you would notice and feel more when your anxiety spikes. Right, because Exactly. Because you're not constantly in that state anymore. So when it does show up, you're like, whoa. You know? And this is why I love using like all of my skills as a psychotherapist to like work on this, because this is so, all of it right here of, of mindfulness.

You know, the second that you start to feel like you're having that panic attack and or in our experience non monogamy of they're gonna leave me that person so much better. Oh no. Oh no. You see the snowball starting to grow and grow size. Yeah. And so yeah, having that self-compassion, what we're actually doing is we're taking.

A step [00:54:00] back from the thoughts. Mm-hmm. We're starting to realize, wow, I'm noticing the snowball. And so I think that for me, I, the first thing I tell my clients to do is to check in with your body, stop intellectualizing, because like you're saying, from the gentle parenting videos, the second that, like we were talking at the beginning, there is deep classical conditioning that has taught us.

Right. Love oxytocin. So good. So good. Mm-hmm. Love oxytocin is met in one person only. If I want this drug, it means B. It is only in exclusivity that is called classical conditioning. Here's the thing I want. Mm-hmm. It is only in that, and so the second that you hear, uh, a world in which that is not the paradigm, your body is going to react.

Mm-hmm. You are going to feel that tightness in the chest. The stomach, your breath. Oh, that's my favorite question. I ask the clients when we're talking about this, how is your breathing? And then they're like, wow, it's actually a little shallow. Yet your [00:55:00] mind in microseconds has processed all of that and has now mm-hmm.

Moved into fight. Flight, freeze fawn. Hmm. And particularly mine is crying. I don't know. Some people like to run. Some people like to fight. I cry. That is my reaction. And so I start to have that in my body and then all the thoughts can go. And so the faster that I can go back to, okay, how is my breathing?

How is this in my body? And then we work from instead of a trying to intellectually process and do a top down, we can actually work from bottom up, which is so powerful. I can actually stop the thoughts by trying to take a deep. Breath. Yeah. And when I'm taking that deep breath, I am sending messages to my brain that, hey, this is actually safe.

And it's the same thing with the panic attack. It's the same thing when you get that message from your boss and you're like, oh shit. You feel it in your body. You have to take the deep breaths to tell your brain that you are not being chased by the lion. Your partner is not [00:56:00] going to leave you. And then through a.

Exposure therapy when you're in the right sentence setting, because yeah, you're right. If that boyfriend sucks and he is not telling the other people about you, there is no amount of jealousy work that is gonna fix that. Okay? Yeah, exactly. But when you're in the right container and you have that reaction and you say, okay, I can take the deep breaths, we're still holding hands, you're still here.

Then you do gentle exposure therapy of repeated experiences, of expanding your relationships and still feeling secure. But you're still gonna have that reaction at times. And what I found is that it changes. Now my partners aren't jealous about, you know, who's having sex with who it's about, you know, I do these relationship reflection questions, um, with my, my partners each month.

And, uh, it's about who has their own journal. For their own relationship reflection questions. Oh, interesting. That's what we're jealous about is I want my own journal. I want my own journal. I don't care what you're doing sexually. Yeah. I want my own journal. I'm like, cool. We can have your own journal. You know, so like the things that bring it are always gonna be different [00:57:00] things, you know?

Yeah. But there's so much more space and, and you grow in that security so that the things that once freaked you out, like I, the way, the ways I once climbed the climbing wall and it freaked me out. It no longer does that. But of course that's still not gonna get you out of the paradigm of time and energy.

If that person starts not showing up for other people, you're gonna. Feel that, but at least the narrative pieces of the classical conditioning man, that does change when you're in the right set and setting.

Lola: Yeah. And, and you do have to be in that right set and setting you do, like, you're never gonna be able to, you know, if you have a therapist you don't trust, or if, if you have someone who's not great trying to expose you to something, like that's even gonna make it worse.

Right. That's not, that's not gonna solve the situation. And I think the other thing too is that I think, you know, people, people need to understand as well that talking to your partner and asking for what you need, like even I, I think a lot of people kind of. Simplify [00:58:00] that and because it's actually quite a scary thing.

Sure. You know, to, to ask for what you need, vulnerable is actually quite a scary thing. And because if they say no, then that's your answer. Right. And I know, like in, in my beginnings, like I think I'm much better now at asking for what I need because I'm in a place where I'm just like, well. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out, I'm fine.

I got me. That's fine. But I remember like early on in my relationships, I was trying to manipulate situations, not like manipulate people, but like, for example, I, there was one time a, uh, a celebrity that I really admired died. And I was, I was like, kind of like, oh, I'm, I'm sad, but I was really sad, a lot sadder than I thought I would be.

Yeah. And a lot sadder than I thought I should be because it's celebrity. You don't know that, you know that whole thing. Yeah. Yeah. So I, my partner had a date and I was like, maybe you can, uh, you know, I could cook you some dinner, you could come over, but just before your date, like, it was way out of the way of the date.

Sure. But I like, I'll, I'll, I'll cook you dinner, maybe you can. And they were like, oh no. You know, I, [00:59:00] I, I really, um, I, I, I'm gonna meet up. I'm, it would be a little bit out of my way. I'm like, and, and I, I kept like offering stuff like that. And then eventually I just kind of snapped and was like, you don't wanna have dinner with me?

You know? And my partner was like. My, at the time, like this, this partner really helped me with like getting more comfortable. Sure. So my partner was like, is there something wrong? Do you need me to come to you? Right. And I was like, yes. Yeah. And they were like, I will come to you. Right. And they did. And they still went on their date afterwards.

Like they just spent a little bit of time with me and they were really good at recognizing moments where I clearly wanted something. Mm-hmm. But I wasn't able for whatever reason to ask for it. Yeah. And you know, when you can't ask for it and then you kind of are in this almost like, like the Windows error message in your brain as like, dun dun, dun.

And you're like, fine, I'm just mad that you don't want dinner. You don't love me. Yeah. You don't, you know, and you're just like, just ask what you want mate. Like, but I was so caught up in the, I like, 'cause what if I did [01:00:00] ask, what if I did say, Hey, I'm really sad the celebrity died and, and now I'm feeling a lot of feelings and I didn't think I would have these feelings.

Can you come over and comfort me? And partner's like, nah, nah. I don't think I wanna Yeah. You know, or, or what if my partner said, you know, I think the, the response that I expected, because I experienced so much growing up, like when I was sad, you know, my caregivers were not comfortable with that. They could not process my sadness.

Yeah. You know, it was like, stop it. You should be grateful. You should, you know, stop that. I don't want it like immediate. So I thought, like if I said I'm sad about the celebrity, immediately the response would be like, well, you didn't even know that person. What's wrong with you? Like, come on, get a grip. So, you know, so you don't ask.

And then, so I think like I. Asking for what you want is, is very scary. Don't underestimate how scary that is. And it's okay. Like the common kind of advice response that a lot of people give is talk to your partner. Talk to your partner. And it's true, but it's also really scary. Yeah. 'cause you know, it, it is [01:01:00] when kind of the rubber meets the road, it's, it's like, I need this, I'm asking you for this.

And if they don't give it, then you know, that is, there is to some extent, in some relationships, a point where you're gonna be like, okay, am I gonna stay?

Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Lola: Because if it's, if it's that big of a need, then you might have to start going, Hmm, maybe not. You know? Yeah. And that, in that relationship I mentioned, if I didn't ask for, like, look, I want more quality time with you.

Mm-hmm. I need more quality time and I want you to want to spend quality time with me. Mm-hmm. I don't wanna have to feel like I'm dragging you into Right. Hanging out with me. Right. They would've been like. Sorry. I mean, yeah, so you know, it, it is scary, but it's, it is necessary, but you can slowly, you know, if I, because I had that safe environment, that's what I'm saying, like Right.

I had that partner who saw that and who understood that and was like, okay. There's something going on here.

Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Lola: Let me just ask the question. I was really lucky to have that. So I think also remember like if, if you have a good, [01:02:00] strong partnership and, and your partner is able to like, help you with that, you know, you can be really honest and, and be, you know, I'm really afraid to ask for this or, or however you know, but it does, it is kind of exposure therapy, like over time you just gotta keep asking for.

Doing little small steps towards being a little bit less, like hiding your needs and, and a little bit more asking for it,

Nicole: you know? Yeah, absolutely. We heal in relationships and so

Lola: Exactly.

Nicole: And you know, those relational patterns like you're saying. Yeah. I'd love all of my clients. Get curious about what sort of love was modeled for you in your early childhood, because like you're saying, if for you when you were emotional, your parents didn't know how to process that, of course then you're not used to having co-regulation and the ability to ask, and so asking for that already, your brain, because it's so beautiful and it's so smart, it knows.

That's not gonna get me anywhere, but we're now in a different paradigm, right? We have different relationships. And so it's gonna take those small little steps of the big [01:03:00] vulnerable ask of, Hey, I actually am feeling really scared about that date you're about to take. I want you to have a great time. Can you call me the next day and, and tell me about it?

So I feel connected to, Ooh, so vulnerable to ask for that. Yeah. But you're right. It takes those small steps and then having a partner again, write the set and setting, we grow in relationships. A partner who says yes, not a partner who says. No, absolutely not. Why are you even jealous? That's ridiculous.

That's gonna shut you down even further. Right? So always taking a, taking a moment to assess the setting that you're in and how that is impacting all of this, because it is absolutely vulnerable to ask for that. But again, when you're in the right setting with the right people, you grow in that skill and you feel much more empowered to be able to ask for that and then be met in that.

And I think what's particularly challenging too, is, at least in my own lived experience, having multiple relationships, is having [01:04:00] people ask for things that you like. Of course you wanna meet and show up for people in their moments, but also when do you literally, as the person who's getting lots of requests, say.

No. Like, wow. Mm-hmm. That's as, as a people pleaser, as someone socially conditioned as a woman, like, I'm always wanting everybody to be happy and, and, and joyous, and I wanna show up for them. And then you're getting like four different invites for one Friday night and you have to sit there and be the person that does have to learn how to say.

No. Mm-hmm. Oh my God, Lola, it's been so hard. Like in a mono. Yeah. In the, in the hierarchy of monogamy. I never had that because it's like, oh, well this is the person, like forget everybody else. Right. Which I, I find really problematic and I always Yeah. Anarchist I find very problematic. Yeah. But now as a relationship anarchist, and I'm getting all these questions about how I spend my Friday night.

Mm-hmm. You do have to learn to be able to like. [01:05:00] Balance your pleasure and your responsibility. I try to say equally at the same time, to your community, to the people around you, and particularly what I found even more challenging in this world is when do you, I've had lots of different relationship.

Reconfigurations is how I like to talk about it. I often don't use the word breakup. I find ways for, you know, obviously if there's significant, you know, situations going on, then it makes sense to have this person leave my life. That is what I would do. But I've have such beautiful people in my world where, where now we reconfigure, maybe we take sex off the table and we're reconfiguring to different types of intimacy, but wow.

To still be in a world where the paradigm is not break up means that there's this like gray area of where do they fit in my life? Yeah. And how to navigate all of that, of when do I say, Hey, I need more space. Even though you actually specifically want more quality time with me, I'm realizing that this is no longer what's beneficial.

Ooh.

Lola: Yeah. That is. [01:06:00] Messy. Yeah, messy. Yeah. It's really difficult because as well, like. You obviously, I, I, I think one of the things I, I encourage people to not do is not to shift into polyamory to avoid breaking up. Mm. If, if, if they, if the situation isn't working for them, if it's really, you know, they're having major problems, may, you know, they're not, you know, polyamory isn't about collecting a series of semi fulfilling relationships until you reach a level of permissible stasis.

Right. It's not, that's not what it's about. But at the same time, I think like having to be that person, like, I had a moment where I was like, okay, I could continue this relationship. I could, you know, at that point I felt like. We were going in different directions mentally. Um, our relationship wasn't equitable.

I probably, we weren't gonna live together anymore. Um, and it wasn't that our relationship was bad. Like it, it definitely wasn't, we weren't arguing, but I didn't really [01:07:00] feel a pull to them in the same way that I had before. And I wanted to leave the country as well. Mm-hmm. And I was like, look, so what I, I had to have a really big, honest look at myself and I'm like.

If, if I, if I leave and I'm trying to keep this relationship, who am I doing that for? Right? Am I doing that just for myself? Not only to avoid a breakup, but just so I can kind of have this person who's interested in me and who's still giving me this kind of comfort. You know, am I, I, I, I always like really think about that.

Like, am I just doing this so that I can get a benefit? But this person, I know that I don't feel the same, that they might feel for me, and I don't, you know, I don't want to just continue this for the sake of like, avoiding a difficult conversation. Avoiding hurting someone, avoiding, you know, and I think it's really important for people to remember that like.

The cultural script of monogamy makes it seem safer, although it's not necessarily safe at all. Like, you know, [01:08:00] you, you obviously, like, there's a logical aspect of if my partner's sleeping with other people, they can directly compare me to someone in a way that they can't really compare me to someone they've slept with five years ago.

Okay, fair enough. Yeah. But still, you know, people meet each other. You could be monogamous with someone, people meet each other all the time at work, at other places, they fall out of love and fall in love with new people. Mm-hmm. You know, I've read, if you wanna really wanna lose Faith in humanity, when I was doing research, um, about like maybe thinking about, um, like, uh, top surgery and thinking about different mm-hmm.

Like, do I want a double mastectomy or do like what do I want? Mm-hmm. And I was looking at some of the forms of, of women who had double mastectomies from breast cancer. Yeah. And. There were a few horror stories of women whose husbands of 10, 15 years drove them to the hospital for this double mastectomy, drove home, packed their shit, and left.

Whoa. Left. Like, and, and that was so heartbreaking. Yeah. And I'm like, it's, but that's the thing that you kind of have to remember is [01:09:00] kind of twofold. Like, you, you want to never hurt somebody and you want to like, protect them and you want to do all this, but it's like nothing is really ever safe. Right.

Like adult relationships are never completely safe. Yeah. They're conditional that people can't control. If people could control how, how much they love or the way they loved, I definitely wouldn't even have a column advice column. Right? Like, people can't control that. And so it's, it's an important thing, I think.

Learning how to say no. Learning how to go. Okay. I need to be real about this situation. Am I, Ben, like, is this really fulfilling? And like, not all relationships are gonna be fulfilling all the time. Like you're gonna get on each other's nerves. Of course you're gonna argue you're gonna have spats, but like, you know, it is tough, but I think it's.

It's always important to be, I think like Rene Browns is like direct is Direct is kind, yeah. And direct is unkind. Like sometimes you have to bite the bullet and I think it, it is a struggle, like if you're managing your time to try and figure out, [01:10:00] like how do you wanna manage that time? Yeah. But I think it's also, I think people forget as well, like the only times when we're really forced to like, choose between people are like really traumatic things, right?

Like if you, if you had multiple friends who booked, who wanted the same time with you on a Friday, you know, I think we, we get a little bit more worried about it in a polyamorous context because it's like a big deal, right? Like, we gotta be good at polyamory. I gotta be a good partner. I gotta, you know.

But, you know, what would you do if you had five friends that wanted to spend the same. And I, I re-contextualizing that sometimes really helps with folks. Absolutely. It takes the stress out of it of like, I gotta be a good partner and I gotta, I gotta do this polyamory thing. Right. You know? Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, there's, it's, it's tough.

It's, it's, it's a challenge when, when you really, you want, you know, naturally you don't wanna hurt anybody, right. Unless, I mean, you're not a, an evil person, so you don't wanna hurt anybody. But sometimes I do think like. Just always remember that sometimes even if somebody gets hurt, [01:11:00] it's much better for you to be honest.

Mm-hmm. Uh, with yourself, with them. Be honest about what you want, because at the end of the day, like there's only so much you can shove that down Yeah. Before it blows back up in your face.

Nicole: Yep. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah, I think that that's where I really appreciate the frame as a relationship anarchist, right?

To take it back to that question of oh yeah, friendship. Yeah. We, we do this so easily in friendship of, oh, okay, I am getting invited to all of these things, like you're saying, and so I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this. And I think that's where it can be important. You know, the meaning making gets more significant when they're like, Hey, what's your plus one?

And we've got these weird events that have like only one, right? And then you're like, ah, you know, and then the meaning making feels important. Um, but you're so, but you're so right, is I often try to invite people to come back to, let's think about friendship. How do we do this as friends? And that makes it so much easier often to understand.

And yeah, the safety thing, that's definitely what I've heard too [01:12:00] from other people. Like, oh, I could never do non-monogamy or any of this because it's, it seems chaotic and unsafe and I. I, you know, we have to look at the research here because mm-hmm. Data shows. I mean, when I was talking to Jessica Fern, her quote of infidelity was around 45, 40%.

When I was listening to Dan Savage and Esther Perel talk, they had quoted it upwards in the 70% of all monogamous relationships, experience infidelity. And obviously that stat is very complicated because no one wants to report that. Oh yeah. Where, yeah. Do you, where do you count infidelity? Is it emotional cheating?

Did we kiss? Do we hold hands? I mean, so this is a very complicated stat, but if we're looking at anywhere around 50% of relationships that are monogamous, experience infidelity, I don't know how secure that is. If we're looking at 50% of monogamous marriages ending in divorce, I don't know how secure that is.

If we're looking at the research that shows that long-term eroticism [01:13:00] struggles in monogamous long-term relationships, I don't know how secure that is. Mm-hmm. And then if we're looking at a world where your economy is so placed into a diad sexually, because again, when you are. Well, let's preface this.

When you are in a monogamous relationship where at least you can have emotional connections with other people, because some people do freak out about that and call that emotional cheating. And I, I can't, I can't, I can't even look at that and be healthy. Honestly. I have. Yeah. I have to tell you that you should at minimum have emotional connections with people of different genders.

My God. Yeah. So I can't, I can't do that. Please have friends. I know, right? But you, you and I both know that that is a thing for people where they would say, that's emotional cheating. And the second I clear that, fucked everything up. 'cause it's like, can I have no friends now I'm attracted to everybody. Oh shit.

You know? But, um, the economy in a sexual diadic relationship where of course you can compromise, but the reality is. I don't care who you are, [01:14:00] you and your partner are not gonna have all the same erotic fantasies. That is a hundred percent a reality. You are two separate beings. Our erotic fantasies are based on our cultural narratives complex.

You are two separate beings. You're gonna have different ones. And so what that means is that you are either going to forego experiencing some of those, or you are going to force and place undue burden of expectation because of the economy where there's a monopoly. Mm-hmm. This is the one person I can get this from.

This is the one person. And it's so funny how in the rest of our world, we're like, that's problematic. You shouldn't just have one source because we understand that that's too much pressure. But yet. Here we are in an economy where that is literally what people have. Where it's like, if I wanna get this, it has to be from you.

Mm-hmm. And so give it to me now. Yeah. Or forego it. Oh man. I don't know how any of that feels particularly safe for [01:15:00] me. Mm-hmm.

Lola: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Definitely.

Nicole: And I think that it reminds me a lot of death in the ways that we live in this world where so many of us are uncomfortable thinking about death. And I hate to break it to you.

We're all gonna die. Like, I hate to break it to you.

Lola: I'm death positive.

Nicole: I could go on. Yeah. You know what I mean? So I think I like to look at relationships in that way of, hey, instead of, and, and regardless of what structure you're doing, I think it is beneficial to look at it that way of, Hey, we might no longer be sexually attracted to each other.

We might no longer want to be with one another. You might fall in love with one another. And so how can we look at that? Face on and actually communicate about it. And I think that's where I do like the ideas of relationship anarchy. Maybe there are periods where it is just you and one person. Maybe it's periods of celibacy and no sexuality at all.

Maybe it's periods of orgies and other times, how can we get more fluid to the reality that you are gonna change? Change is the only thing that is inevitable and actually look that face [01:16:00] on and embrace that.

Lola: Mm-hmm. I think there's so much about like the, the culture it itself, like and monogamous people like you can be monogamous like you if, if it's something, I mean, my great grandmama literally had one husband, she had 11 children with that man must have really liked him 'cause she did not have access to epidurals and modern medicine.

So she must have really liked that man. And he died and she never, she never took another husband. And one of her last words before she died, died was like, oh, I miss him. You know? So she was monogamous in the sense of the word monogamous. And you know, I think. That is some, that is a way that some people wanna be, and that's fine.

But I think that it's the culture and the expectations that really can make, even somebody who I think is, is inclined to that feel trapped. Like the idea, like you can't have any other friends. This is the only relationship that's the most important. This is the only person that you can be attracted to this.

Like, [01:17:00] so much of that, like, you can expand beyond that. Yeah. And, and, and not talking about, just like you said, like not talking about this stuff, I think is where people often end up in such horrible situations. Yeah. And I think, you know, I'm really grateful for like the, the advice that sometimes like Dan Savage gives about, like, people stepping outside of things.

You know, like some people even think that looking at porn is cheating. I know. And I'm just like, I mean, it's, it's up to you. Like, I am not gonna tell you what to do in your life, it's your life. But I just think, man, like. To be so stuck in that. Like you don't have to be like, if you wanna be a monogamous, that's fine.

If that's how you feel like you wanna do things, that's absolutely fine. But that doesn't mean you have to be stuck in it. It's just like gender, right? You wanna identify as a woman, that's fine. That doesn't mean you have to ascribe to all of the things that society says that womanhood should be. Right.

Right.

Nicole: And I think that's where I. I like this world of maybe, you know, 'cause we're constantly as a movement creating new language, right? Yeah. The word solo poly didn't [01:18:00] even exist. And I think that's where I like this idea. I mean, people can obviously choose the words that they want, but to say like, oh, I'm in a period of practicing sexual fidelity out and, and, and not even to use this word, monogamy and words.

Oh, interesting. First off, monogamy meant one person for life. So first off, a real realistic stance would say, oh, I'm practicing serial monogamy. But, you know, and then people start using the words conscious monogamy, right? To, to indicate that I've gone through the cultural paradigms of deconstruction and yada yada.

It's like, what if we're practicing relationship anarchy and this is a period of sexual fidelity? I feel like that kind of like gets us out of, that's cool. The whole, you know, this whole paradigm of, of it. But of course people can choose the words that are important to them. But it's so hard for me when I think about your great grandmother, and I think about my great grandmother because, oh man, you know.

Women couldn't have credit cards in this country until 1970. Exactly. Yeah. And when I think about the fact that marital rape was not illegal in all 50 states. Oh yeah. Until 1993. 1993. Wow. Yes. [01:19:00] Yeah. So how free was our fucking hell were our great, you know, our great grandmother. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. How free.

And when I look back at myself when I was condemning homosexuals and I was a Christian, I would've told you, Lola, if you, this is where I've, I've argued with my, my supervisors. 'cause he's like mm-hmm. People report being happy in religion. And I'm like, cool. Well cool. If you would've given me, given me a survey when I was Christian.

Said, how, how are you feeling about your life? I would've said, I feel really happy. Yeah. I feel really dummy homosexuals. I feel really great. And then where I'm at now, are you. Fucking kidding me. Oh yeah. I dunno how really free I was, given how radically queer I am today. I dunno how really free I was and, yeah, no, no one wants to go down that conversation though of free will and all of it, you know, because it gets really complicated.

But damn, we have to be talking about this for liberation because I will say I don't think I was free. Yeah. And I'm, yeah, curious how many, how, [01:20:00] how, if we had had an education that talked about all the stuff that's in sex at John, all the stuff of this, what sort of world would we be in? Yeah, you think it'd be a really different world?

Lola: I mean, you know, I it easily, maybe my great grandmama could have been like. Oh, this thing exists. Actually, I want this thing. It's, it's very much like, I always think that human sexuality is a lot like our taste in food. Mm-hmm. And I, I wish that pe more people made that comparison because it's, yeah, it's kind of naturally within you.

Yeah. You like certain things, you don't like certain things, but culturally, if you're told, like, you know, technically my, my favorite food could be, I don't know, bull testicles. It could be that I'm not likely to try it because I've been told my whole life through society that this is gross. You should never try it.

But maybe if I tried it, it would be a completely new world to me. I think that's why it's so important for people to like, at least be, have the option, right? Yeah. Like, what I don't like is like people not having the option. And like, granted my great grandmama, I, I love her. [01:21:00] Maybe she was miserable, you know, but like, you know, I, I would've been good for her to have the option.

Sure. Because even then, then if she has that option, then yeah, she's definitely knows that this is the option for her. So it's just like people need to, to, I, I, I think if anything, 'cause I do sometimes feel like there's a reasonable and understandable and sometimes anti monogamy sentiment within the polyamory community.

Sometimes I think it's a defensive reaction. You know, when you identity formation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're sort of like, uh, screw those people. You know? I totally get it. I totally get it. But I think equally like, you know, it's. It's good for people to have the options. It's good for people to choose for themselves and like, yeah, but I just want people to know about it as an option because it just, absolutely.

Some of the stories that I read where people just, they don't even discover that non-monogamy is an option for them until they're like in their fifties and I'm like, yes. Damn. You know? Totally.

Nicole: Yeah. And yeah, look at me though. Even figuring out it was an option and then [01:22:00] yelling. I don't think I yelled, but look at me like having it as an option.

And that first partner and me saying, I would never, so even when the option was presented to me Exactly, I said, so even if we presented it to your grandma, your great-grandmother, baby, she mother said, I would absolutely not. That would be horrible. Mm-hmm. How could I, right. And I think that's part of where we go back to our conversation about jealousy again, right?

Where it's like, Hey, people now, culturally, the context, it is bubbling up. We're getting articles here and here and here and here, and everybody is saying, there's no way I could never do that. I'm so jealous. There's no way. And so until we are truly in a space where someone could say, I could absolutely run with non-monogamy and have a great life, and it looks really fun.

Or I could absolutely run with monogamy and have a great life and it looks really fun. That's freedom. Yeah. Currently where we're at of looking and say, oh, if I was nonmonogamous, it'd be horrible in hell and I would hate my life and ruin, like, it'd be ruined with jealousy. That's not really [01:23:00] freedom because you really not seeing full options of A or B.

So I, I, yeah, I, I'm, I'm really thankful for the people who do, like, have lived the life of NoMy, have ran through the orgies, have had so much fun, and then say, you know what, actually one person feels really satisfying. Mm-hmm. That is very different than someone who has never done it and said there's no way that never Oh, yeah.

Works. Absolutely. So, I mean, yeah. I just hope we can get to a cultural space where, again, maybe like you had said, we just need more images. We need more people talking about the pleasure that is possible. I'm having a, mm-hmm. Great time in my non monogamy, right? Mm-hmm. Like we need more of that narrative so that people don't just look at and say, that's jealousy.

There's no way. Like, we need a world where. Both options are radically joyful and fulfilling. And that's the space of freedom is to freely choose between those.

Lola: And I think it'll be even more free when we have comedians complaining about polyamory. Polyamory, right? [01:24:00] Like, I wanna see that because I, I, I, because like there's so many comedians who complain about being married and complain about marriage, it's accepted that you might be unhappy in a marriage to a certain extent.

We accept that culturally, but we polyamory still likes people feel such a pressure to like always gotta be happy, always gotta be selling it. And I get that, but I wanna see comedians complaining. I wanna see comedians being like, where's my two for one sales so that I can buy both of my partners a gift at the same time.

Nicole: Yeah.

Lola: There's not an, you know, all that stuff. But I think, yeah, I, I think. I, I think, I think we're getting to like the show. I, I, I've talked about sex education. I really love that show. I think it's mm-hmm. Amazing and awesome. And if, if I had that show when I was a kid Yeah. Oh my God. Like, I, 'cause I did, I wasn't, I kind of had a little bit of that experience as well of being like, I did convert and like I'm a, I'm a go harder or go home type of person.

Yeah. So like when I converted, I was. Annoying. Mm-hmm. Very annoying. Of course. Um, and because, and because I'm a it, it makes it even worse 'cause because I'm a little bit on [01:25:00] the, like, on the, a spectrum and I kind of have more of a responsive sexuality. My whole thought was like, well, I'm not tempted, so I don't see why any of you are tempted.

Yeah. You must be evil and I must be great. You know, like, it's, it's, it's. If I would've had that show, I think it would've, it would've opened so many doors for me. Mm-hmm. So I think I'm hoping that like as generations grow a little bit, our media gets a little bit different. We start seeing different people.

I mean, even just like, my mom's gay, and I remember not even that long ago when I was younger, like there weren't gay people on tv. Really? Yeah, there weren't. There was nothing. There was like, Ellen, we got Ellen, we got a few things. Yeah. And now it's like, you know, and I don't want, I don't want anyone to feel like they have to walk around eggshells on me.

But I gotta say, I do take a certain amount of like a little bit of happiness whenever there's a guy who's like, oh yeah, that person's gay. Not that that's bad or anything. I'm like, yeah. You, you have to say that, you know, like a little bit, you know, because [01:26:00] things have changed.

Nicole: Yeah.

Lola: And I'm really, like, sometimes I'm a little bitter about it.

'cause especially with some of the politicians who were very quiet, uh, decade ago or now all of a sudden, very happy to wear a rainbow, whatever. All right. Um, but you know, things, I'm, I'm grateful for that because if that had been the case. For me, like I'm, I'm very hopeful that things will shift that more of the kids, you know, I'm, I'm getting older, so now I can say the kids.

Mm-hmm. Um, but more of them are more open to different, new ideas and, and I think things will get better because I, I do think that things are changing a little bit for the better.

Nicole: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And this conversation, all the people that are listening as a part of the ripples of that, right?

Mm-hmm. Me talking about having, you know, less spontaneous desire with my multiple partners is a part of that to say, Hey, like, yeah, I'm having more. Responsive desire. Sure. We're having great sex, but the spontaneous spontaneity of multiple [01:27:00] lovers still struggles. And when I get a novel person, the spontaneousness is right there.

Right. So like yeah. Being able to have that sort of more critical discussion of polyamory Right. To say it's not gonna just absolutely solve all of our spontaneous, responsive desire situations. Yeah. Right. These are still long-term relationships. Um, I think that's a part of, of the ripples of creating the more cultural consciousness around this.

So I really appreciate you joining us and, and being a part of that conversation today.

Lola: Yeah. I appreciate it too. I think I, I hope that it's given some people, like the, the biggest thing that I wanna do with anything that I write, I just don't want people to feel anxious. I don't want people to feel alone.

Yeah. I want them to totally understand that whatever kind of ups and down emotionally they're going through, it's very normal. It's very expected. You're not bad at polyamory. You're not a bad person, you're not a jealous person. You know, all of that stuff, because I think. It's so hard, like it's so many people, especially those people who aren't, you know, lucky enough to have a community [01:28:00] around them.

Right. It can be super, a super lonely place. So like, you know, I hope, I really hope this has helped with anyone who has kind of been, been like, oh, I've really struggled with this and felt alone in any way. 'cause I think that's the, that's the thing that I think all human, you know, we're wired for connection, right?

So like, feeling alone in our struggle is probably one of the worst things. So, and maybe I can't fix it for you, but if you feel a little less alone, then that's, that's what I'm aiming for.

Nicole: Beautiful. Yeah. Mm-hmm. The space has definitely been that, especially for me at the very beginning. And to have other like sex radicals that I didn't have in my community that was able to come onto the podcast, it created community for me.

And that is a lot of what I hear back from the listeners. So I appreciate you stepping into that space and building that with me today. And that's also gonna lead us into our closing question. But before I do that, I always like to take a deep breath.

And just wanna check in to see if there's anything else that you wanna say to the listeners. Otherwise I'll ask [01:29:00] that one closing question.

Lola: Yeah, I think, you know, it's in your kind of journey of how you're going through things. You know, you're gonna have ups and downs. Everything's, everything's new. As long as you can give yourself a break, give yourself time.

And I, I really hope that, you know, if you have a problem, you know, reach out to people, talk to people. And I do think that things are getting a little bit better. And even if, even if it doesn't seem that way, 'cause like I've lived in the Bible belt, I know how it is. I, I went to a workplace with a Jesus statue in the lobby.

I get it. Um, it can di very much seem dark, but always remember like. Very, be very conscious as well of, of the diet that you submit your mind to as well. Because I think like we are living, we talked about how we're social beings, we're wired for connection. We're living in a very unprecedented time of, of information, right?

Like we get so much information, we, our brains have a negativity [01:30:00] bias and we're inclined to look for threats. And it's very important to remember that like. Your brain's gonna be attracted to all that bad news. And just from, from the, the way that it's wired, you're not a complete, you know, total, your brain doesn't have total control over you.

You can change that, but you have to make a conscious decision. And I think one of the best things that's helped me with my mental health, not just all of the things that we've talked about, but also like keeping track of what I consume. Yeah. Like am I, am I focusing like I know the pressure is there to be aware of what's going on in the world, to be knowledgeable about that.

And obviously, you know, you feel for people right. But just be aware of what you're exposing yourself to the diet that you're feeding your brain. Yeah. You know? And, and if, if somebody that you're following is making you feel worse, like think about like, how are they making you feel? What do you feel in your body when you Yeah.

You know, read, are you, is, is it getting you angry even if you agree with them? Is it getting you angry? Is it, is it putting you into a, a dysregulated state? You know, if you have to just follow cat pictures, follow cat [01:31:00] pictures, like it's okay. Like you're not a bad person for taking care of yourself. And I do think part of that, people pleasing sometimes very much extends to like, seeing all of this bad negative stuff all of the time and having a steady diet of that negativity, seeking out more negativity, and then you just feel bad.

So I think that's another big thing that I would, I would keep in mind for folks is like, think about what you consume. Mm-hmm. Think about, you know. Is it really helping you? I understand you want to know about what's going on in the world, and I totally understand that. And I'm not saying shut off and don't care about anyone ever, but just keep in mind because that will, that will influence you on a day-to-day basis.

It will make you feel like crap if you don't, you know, look at a cat picture, like follow some cat accounts. Don't, don't just follow all the negative stuff.

Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Such wise words. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, with that, I'll guide us towards our closing question. Okay. So [01:32:00] the one question that I ask everyone on the podcast is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

Lola: Oh, that's a good one. Yeah, that's a really good one. I wish people knew that it was, it was normal to feel, I. That you don't know everything and, and that you, you don't have control over everything that you're not, you know, I think people have a little bit of a pressure to always, especially when you're an adult, you know, you gotta be, you gotta be in control and you gotta know everything.

And, and it's, it's comes from a locus of trying to control everything around you, right? And like everyone has everything together. It's just me that doesn't have everything together. And I think that. It, it is normal to feel a little bit unsure. It is normal to feel a little bit like, oh, I don't have this completely together.

But also that that doesn't mean that you have to feel helpless, because I do think we get trapped in a little bit of that helplessness, right? Like especially people like in, in the millennial age, I think there's this kind of [01:33:00] like ongoing joke where we're like, yeah, we don't know how to adult because we grew up without the proper ability to adult and eh, but like, it's normal to feel not fully secure about everything.

And that doesn't mean that you ha you're helpless. That doesn't mean that you can't control anything about your life. It just means that there are things you can't control, the things you can't control. And really stepping into the things you can control, like your media diet, like your, you know, when you get able to regulate your own emotions, like, you know, the asking for what you need, right?

When you're able to fully control that stuff. It doesn't matter that the world is kind of a little nuts or that you don't, you know, you don't, haven't got everything fully down or you don't look like the perfect adult. So it's normal to feel that way. You're not, I don't think I, I think every, even though I feel like that's a trademark of millennial, I kind of feel like everyone feels that way.

Right? Like, I kind of feel like every, I think if you went on and asked, like, you know, people in, in like who are in a, like in their eighties or nineties, and you were like, did you [01:34:00] feel like an adult when you were 30? Or they'd be like, no, I did not. I did. You know? Mm-hmm. I think that that's very normal. I just think we, we, you know, for a lot of different cultural reasons, we think that we should have it more together, but yeah, if you don't, it's okay.

You can get yourself together and you'll get there, but Right. It's okay if you don't feel it. Like in charge and, and boss right now. That's all right.

Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. The shoulds, where are the shoulds coming from? Yeah. Who's defining them? Yeah. Yeah. That was one of the biggest things too, in my therapy journey as a client, not when I started doing therapy, but as a client, my therapist would always say, yeah, let's focus on what's within your control, because there's, yeah, so much outside of your control, but what is within your control, right?

Mm-hmm. And so, yeah, I. Personally cannot control the fact that I'm about to cry. When I'm jealous. What is within my control is to take that deep breath, to be able to ask my partner for support to be able to go for the walk. Right? And so what are the things [01:35:00] in your life that are pieces you can control?

And then getting more flexible with the discomfort of the rest that is outside of our control. That is a lifelong lesson that I will Oh yeah. Continue the process to learn, right. Until the day we die of, Hey, that's outside my control, but here's what I got here. Mm-hmm. Right. And so I really appreciate that as the closing message to really remind listeners to, yeah, get more comfortable with that discomfort.

Mm-hmm. And then to check out those shoulds who is telling you that where's your value system and what is important in your life? Right. Yeah. That's always something I'm coming back to with my clients of helping them to define their value system and meaning making for them.

Lola: Yeah. Yeah. Don't live a life that somebody else thinks that you should live.

Nicole: Right. You know? Absolutely. '

Lola: cause you're, you're not, definitely not gonna be happy if that's the case. Yeah.

Nicole: Well, Lola, it was such a joy to have you on the podcast today. Thank you. It really was a pleasure. Yeah. Yeah, it

Lola: was awesome to have this really great, lots of different points covered, [01:36:00] so, yeah. Fun.

Nicole: Yeah. For all of the listeners that have really loved and enjoyed your perspective, where can they find your book and all the things that you do?

Lola: So I have my column and podcast and everything at non-monogamy help.com. I have, uh, the Anxious Person's Guide to Non-Monogamy is available, uh, as a book and a audio book now, which is really great.

Um, at pretty much most major retailers. If you, if you look for it and do ask for it from an independent bookstore, I'm always very pro supporting independent bookstores. I also have the Non-Monogamy journal, which has a lot of different types of prompts where you can test out like what happens, um, so that, you know, I'm not saying it'll cover every single potential situation you might have, could you?

Yeah. But, but it's, but it's a nice like little way to test, you know, with yourself or with partners, like, what would I do in this situation? Mm-hmm. And, you know, it sparks really interesting conversations. Um, and then by the time this comes out as well, I might also have a Polyamory Fundamentals course that I'm gonna put together.

Cool. Um, because I, I do feel like a lot of people when they [01:37:00] get kind of into the subject, get handed a lot of books, and that's not to say they shouldn't read them, especially 'cause I have books. Obviously, yeah. But, but also I think like there are some practical things people can do to start, um, and, and I'm hoping that that course will be able to offer people, like, if you wanna get started now, here's some practical things that you can go right ahead and learn and implement now so that you can, you know, so that you're not spending kind of like six months reading and then going, oh wait, this isn't for me.

Um, so yeah, that's, that's where you can find all my stuff. And then I'm also on many social networks, but you can find all that on the website as well.

Nicole: That's great. I'll have all of that linked in the show notes below. And thank you. I just wanna say a big thank you to coming onto the show again and for joining me and all of the listeners today.

Lola: Awesome. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Yeah.

Nicole: If you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast, and head on over to modern anarchy podcast.com to get resources [01:38:00] and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I wanna thank you for tuning in, and I will see you all next week.