223. Sacred Sex Ed: Expansion and Liberation with Leola Watkins

Dr. Nicole: [00:00:00] Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Leola join us for a conversation all about pleasure based sex ed. Together we talk about becoming turned on by life itself, the joy of being a feminist sub. And deconstructing the intimacy escalator. Hello, dear listener and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday.

My name is Nicole. I am a sex and relationship [00:01:00] psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration therapy, and I am also the founder of the Pleasure Practice supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships. Dear. Listener. Ooh, sacred Sex ed. Dear listener, you know that I came from fundamentalist Christianity.

I came from a purity culture, and there is truly so much trauma with that that we have explored together on the podcast and many episodes in the past. And a part of that deconstruction and healing process away from Christianity meant that words like sacred, divine, any of that. Freaked me out. The only way that I could see spirituality was through patriarchal religions, and those religions [00:02:00] really hurt me, right?

As many of us can agree with, I know so many of you too, have come from that space. And so anytime I heard words like sacred or divine, I, I almost felt this trauma response in my body that really pulled away from words like that. And so. Part of the healing journey has been learning to find spirituality in other forms away from patriarchal modes of thought, right?

There are so many spiritual traditions around the world that have prioritized women. There are so many spiritual traditions around the world that have had sex as a sacred, important, integral part of spirituality. And so I am very excited to be sharing this episode with you, dear listener, because it's a part of that healing journey.

And another big piece of that is also just. Trauma and sexual assault, and I know so many of you have had that and I'm, I'm there with you. [00:03:00] Me too. I, I know I've talked about that with you on the podcast and more recently I was cleaning out my closet and, uh, found some of my old paperwork from when I first started therapy as a client way before I did my doctorate in clinical psychology way before I started volunteering as a sexual assault counselor and really getting into this work.

And yeah, some of my journals that I had shared with my therapist at that time, it is heartbreaking to look back on. It's all part of the healing journey, right. I specifically said that sex is not sacred. Sex is not divine, it's purely physical and nothing else. That's a, a quote from my journal and wild to think how far I've come on that healing journey, right?

To see now sex is an incredibly sacred, divine spiritual thing to do as much as. Anything is, is in this life truly. [00:04:00] I see sex is one form of intimacy, but not the highest. Right? There's intimacy in a hug, a kiss, sharing a meal with a loved one. Really anything that brings you into presence with another being with yourself, right?

I find all of that to be sacred. And so I share all of this as a testament to how much healing can happen, how much healing can occur around sexuality, around pleasure. And it's, you know, all this work comes from my pain and my trauma and all of that. And it's why I am so passionate about bringing these episodes to you about bringing this education because we certainly need it.

And, uh, I promised dear listener that I'll be in this space with you for a long time coming, talking about the sacredness of all things. Pleasure her.

All right, dear [00:05:00] listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and resources@modernanarchypodcast.com. Linked in the show notes below. And I wanna say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters. And we have a new Patreon member, Renee. Hello, hello, hello. Big shout out to Renee for supporting the show.

I had said last week that we could have a three week Patreon new member streak, and I am so excited to have hit that, that's a new one in the, uh, podcast career. So thank you Renee, for that. And I'm so grateful for your support of the show, of the Modern Anarchy Movement, and I hope that you are enjoying getting to have a sneak peek into more of my personal life and exploration of all of these topics.

So, Renee, you and all the Patreon members are supporting the long term sustainability of the show, keeping this content [00:06:00] free and accessible to all people. So thank you. If you wanna join Renee and the Modern Anarchy community, you can head on over to patreon.com/modern Anarchy podcast, also linked in the show notes below.

And with that dear listener, please know that I am sending you all my love, and let's tune in to today's episode. Ah, I love that. Yeah. So good. And yeah, the first question I ask each guest is, how would you like to introduce yourself to the listeners?

Leola: Beautiful. Well, my name is Leola. I am a pleasure priestess, and the bestselling author of Sacred Sex Ed.

And the main lineages that I have, you know, worked with and studied under are tantra and shamanic sexuality. [00:07:00] And what I love about both of these lineages is that there's this foundational understanding that there's a spiritual world and there's a physical world, and there's an energy that connects those two worlds.

And it's, you know, this portal, this energy between spirit world, the physical world that brings us all into the world. And that energy is inherently procreative and in that way sexual in nature. And you know, a big part of my work, especially in the last chapter, has been. Around, you know, helping people understand and integrate the relationship between spirituality and sexuality, and really honoring the truth that we're all here because of sex.

Literally every single human on earth, every animal, every plant, anything that's alive is really here because of some type of procreative, you know, energetic exchange. And my work revolves around [00:08:00] helping people understand that this energy is the fabric of our reality. So when we heal our relationship to it and reclaim our relationship to it, we become so much more empowered as individuals.

We become so much more liberated and expansive. And, and yeah, that's, that's really me. And, and what my work is, is about. And I'll also just add that. You know this energy, this procreative life force while so many of us. Feel it and tap into it during sex. It's actually so much more than that and we can tap into this life force, this procreative energy, really at any moment of, of any day.

Right. And, and that's a big piece is, is, you know, how can you be turned on? By life itself. How can you use pleasure, which is deeply associated with sex, but how can we bring pleasure into each and every moment? And when we're tapping into that pleasure, we're tapping into [00:09:00] life force and we're, you know, aligning ourselves with this massive, you know, creative potential.

Dr. Nicole: Right, right. Absolutely. It's the sacred energy exchange, right? I think about how even in our conversation, all of these conversations I have on the podcast, it's me and this other human going back and forth, back and forth. I mean, the erotic power is right there. And then you start to see it in everything in your life.

How am I engaging sensually? Where is this bringing me life for? Shutting me down? And so starting to see that connection in all areas of life, I think has been the biggest portal for me. And when I think about my journey with purity culture and all of that, it's such a. I don't wanna say there's a final destination to that healing arc, but in that healing arc, there was a very distinct time where I said, it is not divine.

It is not sacred. I would never use those words right, because it came from such a space of pain before being in such a patriarchal space of spirituality. And so getting to a space now [00:10:00] where I've reclaimed the sacredness of it, the divinity of it, oh my God, what a journey. And you can see other people at different points in that, depending on how hurt you were by patriarchal spirituality.

Leola: Yeah, ab absolutely. And I think that everyone's definition of spiritual liberation, as well as sexual liberation looks very, very different. Right. And there is no right, wrong, good or bad way. And it also looks different in different parts of our lives. Mm-hmm. Even the word tantra itself, which is not an inherently sexual practice at all.

In fact, it's so much more. Right. And it's, it can be meditative, it can be breath work, it can be yoga, it can be the way that you eat your food. Um, but sex is one, one tool in the toolbox in many lineages. But the word itself is a Sanskrit word. And so tan tantra, tan in Sanskrit means to expand. And tra means to liberate.

So tantra is a path of expansion, liberation. What I love about that definition is that [00:11:00] it's so broad and it looks d like what is expansive and liberating to one person is very different to the, you know, to the next person. Right. And also in different parts of our lives, which, you know, you had spoken into like, you know, in, in one season of your life.

It, it, it was challenging to see the divine and the sacred and, and then, you know, down the line there was a healing and a reclamation and, and it was quite similar for me as well.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. I'd love to hear your journey really take up the space to tell your story of that reclamation. Where would you start?

Me and the listeners?

Leola: Yeah. Where to begin. Yeah,

Dr. Nicole: I know, right?

Leola: There's, yeah, there's so many like turning points in the journey that I could start out, but I, I think I'll just go back, you know, kind of to just recognizing, you know, my lineage, where I was raised, how I grew up. Sure. Great. And I think that a lot of listeners will relate to this idea of, you know, collective sexual trauma.

Uh, I grew up in the Midwest in a smallish town that had pretty [00:12:00] traditional values, um, you know, pretty conservative, uh, you know, politically and otherwise. Yeah. And my sexual education and my, just my education in general around what was possible for me and what it meant to be in a woman's body, you know, it was in, in many ways, in inherently traumatizing, um, you know, looking at, you know, the way my parents approached it, which they did their best and I love Right.

You know, their, their aim, my parents' aim was to get me past the potential of teen pregnancy, and they did that great. But they gave me a very fear-based education. Yeah. And then you have religion, uh, and, you know, school sex ed, and then peers who have all kinds of weird judgements, things to say about their early sexual experiences, and then our own early sexual experiences, you know, as well as media.

So there's just so much, you know, fear-based rhetoric around our bodies and what's possible, and intimacy and relationships and sexuality. And this creates, you know, a sexual, or like a shadow [00:13:00] just creates shadow overall, but specifically in this context, it creates a sexual shadow. So basically I, I had this sex education that was very limiting and my response to that was to find out for myself to go out and explore.

And that looked very much like, kind of like a slut phase. Like I'm just gonna unconsciously see what's out there and, and, and get curious. And, and that was beautiful in many ways because I did learn a lot, but I also put myself in many situations that were dangerous mm-hmm. And traumatizing. Mm-hmm. And, you know, experienced many non-consensual, um, interactions and, and rape and, and it just, yeah.

Then it just started to stack up. So I had like all of this inherent sexual trauma from my sex education. Right. And I also had these more, um, more clear like traumatic events. Right. [00:14:00] And in my early twenties I started to learn about spirituality. I was actually living in Chicago at the time and it was beautiful.

And there, that was the time where it was very love and light and lots of mindfulness and, and it was great, but it wasn't really getting to the deeper core of my being. That's when I discovered Tantra. I, um, I met this guy, who was he, he approached me in a coffee shop. In a coffee shop. It was Ingenia.

There's a bunch of those in Chicago. Oh yeah, there are, uh, the one that's like in Wicker Park, Ukrainian Village area. Sure. Yeah. Um, anyways, so yeah, he approached me and he wasn't like my normal type, but there was something special about him. There was this aliveness that he brought, and so I kind of just pulled that thread and we ended up dating and I found out that he used to date a Tanika.

And so I started to just dabble in the space really, because I wanted to know the cool sex tricks that was really like, it was very surface level, [00:15:00] and I think that's why a lot of people explore tantra at first, but not too far into it. I started, you know, healing my inner child and healing my relationship to my body.

And I started to like, get clear on like what are my actual values, you know, and what's really important to me in this, in this life. And my whole, my whole life changed. Mm-hmm. Um, and that's kind of the. Medium length story, and then there were a bunch of little turning points after that. But that's kind of like my background and the, the beginnings.

The beginnings of the deep planted.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Thank you for sharing some of the, yeah. First things that are sticking out for me are of course, following that energy, that curiosity. Right? I think that's always something that I'm sharing with my clients is that the wisdom is inside of you, and you have those moments where you don't know what it is about that person, but you feel the draw, or there's this question, you have this natural curiosity, and so [00:16:00] look at the doors that that open to your life from just following that, Ooh, what is this?

Right? And all that has transpired since.

Leola: Yeah, totally, totally, totally life changing. I mean, my whole, my whole life is completely different because of that one. Interaction and curiosity and leaning in and trusting. I don't think that I would've called it that at the time. I didn't even really know. I think that I was actually just really lonely and I liked getting some attention, but, um, and, and, and that's the beauty of it all.

That there's shadow and light and dark and, and everything. And, um, at the end of the day, we get to trust. We get to trust ourselves and, and get curious about where is that, where is that desire coming from?

Dr. Nicole: Right. So, absolutely. Yeah. And some mere moments in terms of my upbringing, I had, uh, our sex ed, I wouldn't even call it that.

I think it is purely abstinence. Have you heard of the paper test? No. [00:17:00] No. Oh my gosh. So they, you know, in chapel, this is our sex ed in air quotes, um, they put a pink paper and a blue paper together with glue and said, this is what happens when you have sex. You become connected. And then they ripped it apart and said, and this is what happens when you leave that person.

And who would want this piece of paper? And Leola. At the time I was, I had a purity ring. I was sitting in the crowd and I was like, yes, exactly. Amen. What? I was like, this is why I'm a virgin. Absolutely. Which is. Wild. Right? And so I think, you know, part of what I was hearing in your story, part of what I've experienced in my own, and part of what I see around the world is that when you come from that sort of environment, you don't get an education that is pleasure based at all.

Of course, let alone the education on communication skills, right? And so there is no victim blaming. There's a reality that when you move through the [00:18:00] world with that sort of, there is going to be harm and pain and suffering that happens, traumas that occur, right? I had no idea how to advocate for myself at all in any capacity, right?

Mm-hmm. And so then I, I'm sure like you, that sets you very quickly on a healing journey to say, what the fuck is this? And how do I become empowered in this space? And you're reading every single book that has ever existed on the topic.

Leola: Yeah. Yeah, we did. We had a similar like. Like, not the paper test. We had like a, we had something I would call like the, the tape test.

Oh. And what they did was they had like a big sheet of tape, like packing tape, and then they stuck it on one person's forearm. And then you pull it off and it's got all like the hair follicles and oil on it, and then put it on the next person the next. And so it's like, what it was meant to represent was every time they put the tape on someone, it was like, this is what it is, like when you have sex and then you come back with all of this dirty gross [00:19:00] residue and then by the time, you know, you're on like the 5, 10, 15 person, you are just like, the, the tape is actually not even usable anymore.

And it's like really covered in people's, you know, skin cells and, and, and all of that. And so, yeah, it was just really to, I think to the students in the class iterating this fact that, you know, this is dirty and gross and and wrong. And um, and that's not to say that it isn't important to have, you know, honest.

Conversations about the potential repercussions of, you know, sexual interactions and intimacy. Right. But we're also leaving out, you know, the, the, the whole other side of the narrative, and especially the spiritual side. Like what would happen if we taught children about, like, the sacredness of this act and empowered them with, you know, the truth.

Um, as well as, you know, you know, the communication skills and, and the, the pleasure pieces too. Um, I think that we'd be living in a very, [00:20:00] very different world if that were the case. I mean. One of the turning points in getting into this world was in my mid twenties. I went to India with a nonprofit that freed children from sex trafficking.

And my job, it was like a documentary, and my job was to interview the survivors. And, and they're like children, like girls, and interview the social workers and the police officers. And we went on an actual raid and they were doing amazing work, you know? Mm-hmm. They're freeing the innocent and arresting the bad guys.

But at the end of the day, I was like, this isn't getting to the root. This isn't getting to the demand. Why are these, you know, rapists feeling that the only way that they're gonna have their desires met or feel empowered sexually is by, you know, purchasing a child? Like, that's insanity to me. And to me it's because we've taken out this sacredness, we've taken out this sacredness piece, and I think just people in general feel really disempowered, especially, you know, in, in that part of the world.

One thing that they noticed was it wasn't, [00:21:00] it was a lot more of the people that were. Working in the sex trade were people that yeah, felt really, you know, disempowered. You know, they were all day kind of like, you know, or an indentured servant of sorts to the more wealthy, you know, east Asian individuals and this was the place where they felt like they had control in a way.

And so it's like, it's really, really fascinating. Um, and also sad. Yeah. And also there's a lot of potential,

Dr. Nicole: right? Yeah. Heartbreaking to be in that space to see that. And then I'm sure just for you to be there to see the scale. Right. I feel a lot of that in my therapy office of you hear stories at repeated stories of different sexual assaults and experiences and you know that it's only a drop in the much wider bucket of this large scale trauma.

And that can be really heavy to sit with at times. It can, yeah. Absolutely. Feel daunting and. I think [00:22:00] that that's why both you and I are probably so passionate about talking about pleasure, right? That's the whole healing arc, right? Is going from the trauma all the way back to embodiment and pleasure, and if we start with that pleasure based focus, I think that it's building the communication skills and it's going to eventually change the world in that sense.

I mean, often, I mean the stats we know are that most men are perpetuating the violence, right? Yeah. That is a reality. Um, not all men, of course, I know I can already hear someone yelling at me, but, uh, the stats, right? The stats, you have to talk about the stats. Um, and then when I think about that world, I think about how a lot of men, because of the patriarchy, lack communication skills about basic emotions and then often find sex as the one way that they can connect with people.

And then even there, there's such a large mesh that, uh, there's such a large message in society of taking, right? Yeah. You watch the rom-coms from the nineties and the woman will say, no, I [00:23:00] don't want this. And he pulls her in closer and says, but I want you stay with me. And stuff like that makes me cringe now.

But that has been the norm.

Leola: I mean, you're absolutely right. I think that there's this other piece too in that this energy, sexual energy is really, really powerful. Yeah. It's very, very powerful and I think that, you know, the powers that be religion, otherwise they know that this power is, is there and, and you know, powerful energy.

Inherently hold a level of danger to them. And that's not to say that sexuality is dangerous, it's to say that it can be, if it is improperly, um, channeled just like money, you know, money can be used. Money is a very powerful energy. It can be used to create more joy and equality and love in the world, but money can also be used to fund war and destruction and, you know, death.

And, and so when it comes to [00:24:00] the sexual, the, the power of sexual energy. I find that a lot of these institutions, rather than teach people how to channel this energy properly, they tell them to shut it down. To ignore it. Right, right. And to suppress it. And unfortunately, we don't create safety around these powerful energies by shutting them down.

Mm-hmm. Or, um, minimizing them. We create mastery. We create safety by mastery, by really learning how this energy moves in your body and how to channel it and how to love it. And, and, you know, we grow up and we learn to, you know, we learn sexuality behind closed doors in the dark. Getting it done as quickly as possible so that we're not caught, we're not caught, you know, keeping our voices down, not allowing that natural cleansing expression of energy that can happen when you feel safe.

And then, you know, hiding the evidence after. And I think so many of us are carrying that programming [00:25:00] into our adulthood of get it done fast. This is bad and wrong. When I have a moment to strike and to make, make it happen, I'm gonna take it. Um, taking energy and, and it, it's really a, it, it's also like a lack mindset in, in reality too.

That energy of like a man wanting to take it when it's there. Right. Um, and not trusting his inherent ability to create the safety, uh, which is honestly like the hottest thing in the world is a man who is sexually sovereign. Mm-hmm. Um, and that's a big piece of this work is sexual sovereignty.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, it's the, uh. When you tell the kid you can't have cookies, right? And then you put the cookies on the highest jar and say, you are not allowed. You can't have them. You know what the kid does? The second you walk away, they're craving that cookie with such force that it can be destructive rather than teaching them, Hey, like we have cookies every now and then.

They're super great, super tasty, and. The less restrictive it is, the, they have more of a natural relationship to that [00:26:00] sort of pleasure rather than this restricted, complex relationship that they can have. And so I think when you think about sex education and empowerment on that same scale, if we could create more open discussion.

I mean, I dream of the world where I could just as equally say, I had this great day out in the beach, in the waves, and I had this great orgasm with my lovers. Yeah. And have that not be such a radical difference. They're both moments of pleasure and embodiment and sensuality. But one would get me sent to HR and the other wouldn't.

Right? Like we live in a world where that reality impacts us and it is, um, undeniable the ways that we hold that shame and tension in our body rather than really opening up to feel more pleasure and that flow.

Leola: We live in a world where we can't talk about the energy and the acts that literally brought us into this world.

It's so bad, wild, [00:27:00] bizarre to me. Um, so I don't know. I know, I understand. Well, holding the pillar for a new reality, and it's coming. That's really what, you know, for me, the book, sacred Sex Ed, is all about, it's a movement. It's really a movement. It's a mission then, and I'm excited to see how, how it evolves and how we evolve as a species, because it's time I'm ready for my children to be in a, in a more equitable, equitable and, you know, beautiful world where intimacy of all shapes and colors is celebrated and seen as healing.

And that's a whole other thing, like really bringing intention into intimacy. And, and maybe we can talk about that a bit, but you know, there's just so much more to sexuality than reproduction and orgasms. Like there's healing and there's transformation, there's self growth. Uh, and that's what, that's what I'm here for.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Talk about that intuition or the intention. I'd love to hear more about. How that has evolved for you over the years? [00:28:00] 'cause I'm sure that it hasn't been the same when you first started. Right? When you first were in that journey, how has your intentionality around sex shifted over the years?

Leola: Yeah, so I'll say before I discovered tantra and, you know, really stepped into this world as my passion and purpose, I thought that there were two types of sex, good sex and bad sex. And looking back at that time, most of my sex was, you know, bad sex in that my bar for good sex was very low. I wasn't asking for what I really wanted.

I was not great at communicating my boundaries or even knowing what my boundaries were. Mm-hmm. Right? And I just really didn't even know what was possible. I had only, you know, an inkling of the transformational and restorative, you know, capacities of, of intimacy and sex and relationships. And because of that, I was leaving so much.

You know, potential for [00:29:00] deep emotional connection and healing and, you know, ecstasy on the table. And I really just left the quality of my relationships and my sex and intimacy up to chance because I was going in with the zero intention. Yeah. And kind of expected my partners to read my mind about what I liked.

And when I did have good sex or a good connection with someone, I thought that it was like chemistry or, you know, and, and maybe it is to a degree, you know, pheromones, whatever. But it's actually so much more than that. There are so many people that I meet too that like, they're like, oh, I feel this like intellectual connection with this potential partner, but I'm not feeling a sexual connection and.

It's not to say that that sexual connection isn't possible or isn't there, it's probably just because you don't have the tools and in most of your relationships, you're living out, you know, this, um, dramatic trauma bond that gets you really excited and turns you on and you're stuck in this pattern [00:30:00] rather than seeing the capacity of healing with someone that might not feel as exciting on the surface, but is actually deeply safe.

And it's a space where you could completely fall apart and feel God in your body, right? Mm-hmm. So the question that I, or the, the, the perspective that I like to pose is imagine what could happen if you brought an intention and you decided every intimate or sexual experience gets you closer to your highest self and God.

And so, you know, according to, you know, some shamanic sexuality lineages, there's four types of intimacy and sex. Should I go into them?

Dr. Nicole: Go for it. Let's do it. Yeah.

Leola: So the first is reproductive, which I feel overall across the world, reproductive sex or intimacy is the most widely accepted by religions, right.

By parents, whatever. Right? And then, and but it's exactly what it sounds like. It's having sex to make a baby.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Everyone gets [00:31:00] to post their baby announcement and it's about sex and no one bats an eye

Leola: Yes.. Exactly. Exactly. I love that. We know, we all know what you're up to. Um, okay. And then the second type is recreational.

And recreational sex or intimacy is the type that you are, um, pursuing for the intention of, you know, feeling good in your body, having a good time, orgasms, and generally speaking, not holistically, but generally speaking, recreational intimacy or sex is how fast can I have an orgasm? And it's almost like masturbating with another person's body sometimes too.

Um. Not holistically, but I would also say that recreational sex or intimacy is the type of intimacy or sex that people seek out the most. So reproductive is the most accepted. Recreational is the one that we seek out the most. Then we have restorative intimacy. So restorative intimacy is using this life force, [00:32:00] this sexual turn on moving through the body to heal, to heal the mind, to heal the body, to heal the heart, or to heal the heal, heal the soul.

Mm-hmm. And the concept of this is based on, you know, you know, if you've, if you've read like The Body Keeps the Score or Becoming Supernatural by Joe Dispenza, it's this, it's this understanding that like we hold our emotions, which are energy, emotion. If we don't express them in a moment, we hold them in our bodies, which a lot of us are doing on a day-to-day basis.

Yeah. We're like. Disassociating from our emotions. We don't feel safe to express our emotions. We feel crazy if we're, you know, emotive. Um, and so we really just bottle up all this stuff in our system. And so with restorative intimacy, what we're doing is we're awakening this life force energy that is then, if we're intentional about it, can actually, you know, move up our chakra system and dislodge [00:33:00] these stuck emotions.

And so restorative intimacy sometimes looks like the type of like sex where you're like crying and you have no idea why, you know? Or it's like, you know, I've had moments where like I'm really stressed out and it's like, you know what? When I'm really stressed out or I feel a headache coming on, so many of us think that, okay, I don't wanna have sex, or I don't wanna connect intimately with my partner right now because I don't feel good, or I'm not in the mood.

When in reality, if we, like, if we actually leaned into the intimacy, which is gonna help you get into your body and get out of your head, right? You can actually like come out the other side feeling so much better. Right? Kind of like a deep tissue massage where it's like you go into get the massage and you're like, oh, this is gonna hurt.

Like, don't really wanna do it. But if you, if you're, if you allow yourself to soften and surrender and work out that, that tension in the body, then you'll come out the other side feeling so much more relaxed [00:34:00] and restorative intimacy is very similar. Yeah. And then. Then the last one is transformational.

So transformational intimacy is the type of intimacy that, you know, gives you this potential to experience the divine, or, you know, the type of intimacy that like changes your life or the way you see the world, or the ways that you can connect with others. And it's my experience that transformational sex can feel like a plant medicine injury for sure.

Like maybe it's bringing up some like subconscious pieces. Maybe you're having a light bulb moment during sex. Could also be, you know, what's called like a cosmic orgasm. We have in our pineal gland, DMT, which is like a literal drug that people will take and they, you know, people that have taken DMT describe it as the type of drug that just like takes you to God and you have that naturally occurring in your body and people can experience DMT release from having, you know, transformational intimacy or [00:35:00] sex.

But I would also say that transformational intimacy could be, you know, for the very first time ever, like really claiming your fantasy and making it happen or, yeah. Connecting with someone of the same gender for the very first time or trying something new in the bedroom. Mm-hmm. Like, that can change the way you perceive the world, you know?

Yeah. The first time that I started working with, um, like anal play, like that changed my life. Like it really, it sounds so silly, but it actually, it actually really changed my relationship to my body. Sure. It changed my relationship to God. It changed my relationship to my past trauma. Sure. Around, you know, being non consensually touched or penetrated in that area, and so it's like Sure.

A lot. There's a lot available there when you

Dr. Nicole: Absolutely.

Leola: Yes. When you create space and intention,

Dr. Nicole: yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I'm thinking about some of the times I've been tied up on a table and I could swear that I [00:36:00] felt in my, you know, heavy breath, the screams, the pleasure, the orgasm, just the centuries of women that have been repressed in that orgasm, I felt like I could just feel that, you know, like releasing or the, um, the times that I've had a desire, a fantasy, right?

Even just thinking about that, when my friend started asking me, what are your fantasies? Right? It was such a question I had never thought about. Yeah. And then I started flexing that muscle of. You're right. What is it that I get excited about and brings me that life force? And then to actually snap my fingers and ask a couple of people if I can make that happen.

And they said yes and showed up. You know that muscle is really good to start saying, okay, there's something I want, something I like, I'm excited about, and I can make that happen. You know how empowered you feel after that. What else can I think about, dream about and make happen?

Leola: It's so, so true. [00:37:00] I think for women especially, we're kind of conditioned to be the peacemakers and to go with the flow.

Mm-hmm. And for so long, my, my, my, how I approached intimacy and sexuality was what is your desire or your fantasy? And can I fit into it rather than really getting curious about what I want and then learning how to communicate it. Because when you can ask for what you want or set a boundary when you're the most physically and emotionally vulnerable, which for a lot of us, when you're naked in the bedroom, if you can ask for what you want then, or set a boundary, then you can do it anywhere.

You can ask for the raise. You can set boundaries with your parents. You can trust yourself. It's like, it's just so, so, so, so empowering. And it sounds so simple, like, oh, just ask for what you want. But it's like. People don't realize that there's so much conditioning in the way. Yeah. That is keeping you from even knowing what you want [00:38:00] and then keeping you like frozen as well.

Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. It took me years, I was years into sex to be able to just to ask to stop mid sexual experience. Yeah. That I just couldn't even verbalize despite having experiences that were painful, despite not wanting to have sex anymore. I just couldn't even get that out because I think I was just in such a deep state of people pleasing, and you're supposed to go all the way through to the quote unquote.

End, which, you know, like when I say it now, I'm like, what does that even mean? But at the time I was like, right, we have to hit this finish point and I'm invested in this and so let me give my body. And so it took years just to be able to say, Hey, I think I'm done, actually. Right? Yeah. And so I have so much empathy for that journey.

Right? And what that means to actually liberate your voice. That is a journey that can take years to go on and ha and requires, in my opinion, relationships that are safe enough. Right?

Leola: Absolutely. [00:39:00] That's so important. What we don't realize is how much grace we get to give ourselves, especially when it comes to doing something like asking to stop or asking to pause or you know, refresh or whatever it might be.

Because in our bodies, genetically, we're often carrying, you know, through epigenetics. Past, like generations past trauma around sexuality as well. And I can guarantee that all of us at some point in our lineage had an experience. You know, our, our grandma's, grandma's, grandma's grandma had an experience where if she said, stop, she could have been hit, beaten, killed, you know?

And so there's this unconscious. Feeling in our body of like, if I say no, if I say stop, I could literally die. Whether I die in that moment or I'm cast out from the tribe and then I'm left offending for myself and I die that way. Mm-hmm. And we don't live in that reality anymore, thank God, most of us at least.[00:40:00] 

And, and so it's almost our duty, in my opinion, to to, to release that and to, you know, learn how to communicate so that we can change that narrative for, you know, our, our generations to come. And even just, even if we're not intending to procreate, even just like giving that transmission to our partners that like, Hey, I'm gonna say stop and have them.

Be comfortable with that. Right. And, and learn how to hold that and respect it and celebrate it and say, thank you for taking care of yourself. Instead of, oh, I'm bad or wrong, or what, how dare she, or whatever story wants to come up.

Dr. Nicole: Right? Absolutely. Because when I am topping or when I'm dumbing, I need to know that my sub is gonna communicate to me.

Yeah. Because if they don't, I could go further than they really, and that's where I need to know that this person is gonna communicate. Right. And so then that creates the space for us to flow and explore. And if that communication isn't there, then we're not really connecting [00:41:00] anymore. And it's not safe.

And I, I truly feel like the biggest portal for me with that was having queer sex. The first time that I had sex with a dildo, it was such a transformative moment because I was like, wait. This person who is using the strap on, like they're enjoying the experience, but it's not their physical body right there.

Which means if I'm not having fun with that, then I should just tell them. Because in the past I was always like, oh wow, this penis like it's going. I should make sure the penis is having fun too. Right? So to separate it out with a dildo, it was the biggest portal where I was like, oh shit, this is actually about my pleasure right now.

And that was what unlocked so much for me to start communicating. And I truly didn't know that until I had that queer experience.

Leola: That's such a good story. I love that. I mean, that's transformational intimacy right there, like that one. Like trying something that changed everything. Everything changed everything.[00:42:00] 

Mm-hmm. I also love what you were sharing about, you know, like the being tied up and, and the, the healing pieces with that. You know, sacred surrender is such a big piece too. Like people, the association of BDSM is like very often, especially when we're being tied up or being a sub a submissive, is that there's this unequal power dynamic and it's, and it's like you're being controlled and your power is being taken away when in reality there's a whole different approach that's available that's like I am consciously allowing someone else to hold me and my power for this moment so that I can actually, you know, have a sacred surrender.

I can just be in my body and be with the pure present moment, right. And be totally out of my mind and in my body. Right. I think, and it's delicious.

Dr. Nicole: I think a really good example for that that maybe helps people see it in a broader context is, so I teach yoga, right? I'll get [00:43:00] up in the front. Okay. We're breathing everyone.

Let me guide this whole experience. This is what we're doing. You're breathing, we're moving here. This is where you're going, right? I'm leading, I'm dumbing. I have the power, I'm setting the agenda. Ugh. Lila, do you know how nice it is to go and be a student of the yoga class? Yeah. Where I just get to be in my body and my breath and someone stands up in front of me and says, Hey, go here, do this, do that.

And I say, great. I don't have less power. I've chosen to exist in this exchange where this one person is leading and I'm empowered at any point to not take the pose, walk out of the room. I paid for this experience. You know, like there's so much in that and I think that we can see that, oh, it's that surrender to be able to let go to this person leading, but always having your empowerment.

And so I think we see it in other frames, but again, the second you get into sex, everyone's like, what can I be a feminist and still be a sub? And the answer is yes.

Leola: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah, there's this [00:44:00] researcher, Eva Kow, I believe is her name. I don't remember where she did this research, but.

She found that we make more than 35,000 decisions every day. So what happens when we, you know, surrender that power of decision making and allow someone else to kind of make the decisions for us? It's like we get this rush of serotonin and it leaves us, you know, speechless and giddy and oftentimes very relaxed.

And that's, that's subspace, that's what Subspace is. And it's, it, it can be deeply, deeply, you know, fulfilling. It can be deeply relaxing and, and, um, can create so much spaciousness in our system as well. It's, it's a really interesting concept because, yeah, I explored b DSM and kink before I got into this world and this work.

Sure. And my relationship to it was very different. It was in a way. You know, I was addicted to the drama and the intensity and Sure. Kinda like reliving, reliving my trauma. And then on the other side, [00:45:00] choosing experiences for myself to consciously submit to someone that I trusted and that, you know, really was holding me, created a, a completely different reaction in my system.

Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah. That's a story I've heard before, a story I can understand, right? Starting in one place and reliving certain things, finding empowerment, and then coming at it again with a completely different lens, a completely different relationship to the dynamics. And often in that sort of world, I think a lot about archetypes, right?

We're playing into different archetypes, whether you're the the powerful seduces, right? Or I just think about BDSM and leather and this vlogger and this black vlogger and I'm gonna rah. Right? Versus some of the stuff I've seen from your content of using a rose, right? Okay. Bend over and I'm gonna hit you with the rose.

Right? And the pedals at the end of the day, they're both impact play and they're both sensations, right? And then we're ultimately playing into different archetypes of [00:46:00] what we're doing there. Maybe the dark and the mysterious to the more sensual erotic, but they're both BDSM impact play at the end of the day.

Leola: Yep. Yep. Absolutely. I also loved what you said about, you know, when you're in the dominant position, making sure that you can trust you're submissive to advocate for themselves to say yes or to say no. Like there's a huge piece of trust that is activated in those, you know, dynamics or in my opinion has to be activated, but it isn't always Sure.

And one of my teachers said that the no creates the river bank for the Yes to flow the no, the river bank for the yes to flow. And it's like I actually, I, I would hesitate to be dominant to someone that isn't able to. Like even so to voice a boundary, you know, if I were to say, what are your boundaries?

And they're like, I don't have any boundaries, I'd be like, alright, well let's [00:47:00] find one so that, so that I can, can I punch you in the face? Would that be okay?

Dr. Nicole: Right, exactly. Exactly. That's the biggest red flag. Right? Okay, got it. Maybe you can come work with me, not actually play. Right? Like there's more to expand there in terms of what is possible.

Uh, and I agree. Setting that note is the container and that's often, you know, where I start with folks is Yeah, like where is your line so I can know, so I can understand. So we can both be in that flow space safely. And I think as. Especially given my own past experience with how hard it was to even say no or stop, I definitely want to make sure before leading anyone, um, into that experience that they have that space.

And yeah, you're right. There's so many ways where BDSM and kink is not great. I think about the light in the dark and all of it, right? Even plant medicine spaces, there's a lot of problematic spaces there and a lot of healing. Like all of these movements have really big, uh, light spaces, really big dark spaces.

And I think part of what [00:48:00] is gonna help all of us is having open conversations about it rather than keeping it in this, you know, underground not talked about. The more that we can bring this into the light and talk about, yeah, as a dom, you need to be able to trust that your sub is gonna com, uh, communicate with you.

Great. If that raises the cultural consciousness to now have that conversation, we're in a much better world than the, the secrets, the quiet, the push down.

Leola: Yeah, everything can be your medicine or your poison, even pleasure. Even pleasure. Pleasure is medicine. But it also requires a discernment. 'cause there are times where, you know, there there's, there can be too much of anything.

Um, and so yeah, it's really important to have that level of self-awareness and discernment to know when something is bringing you closer in alignment to your higher self or your vision for your life, or whatever you wanna call it. And when something is taking away from that.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Yeah. And I wanna go back when you [00:49:00] were talking about the massage experience and thinking about, um, sex and eroticism in points of, you know, difficulty. Maybe you have that headache, maybe you've had a tough day. I just. Oh, I gotta pause because I think at times, and I've been here too, it can be a failure of imagination because if you had a really tough day at work and I said to you, Hey, do you wanna massage?

I think most people would immediately say, you know what? That sounds really great. And if I said, Hey, do you want sex? A lot of us, myself included, might say no. And what is it that we are projecting out in our imagination of what that looks like? When I think about a massage, I think about an experience where I'm being touched and it feels good, and it is giving to me.

It feels nice. Oh, what thinking about with sex? On the other side and [00:50:00] what am I not seeing is possible? Yeah. Maybe today you're right, I don't have energy because I just got back from a really tough day at work. Would you be willing to top me and give me this experience where I can relax and you can manipulate my body here and do that, and that lover might be ecstatic to do that for you?

Right. I just truly in my past consciousness had no imagination to even think about that. And I think it often becomes much clearer when I could offer someone a massage and they'd be like, yes, please rub my back. That's great. But anything else feels, no,

Leola: I love that you brought that in. That's such a big piece.

And there could be a whole other conversation about this, but I'll share even just a personal story. Sure. So my husband is an amazing lover. Yeah. He is so great in bed. He is epic. It's awesome. And he's so good. And he's such like. When he want, when he's gonna have sex, he's gonna give it a hundred percent.

Right? Right. And so this would create this. [00:51:00] Dissonance at times when he would, you know, finish with work and I'd be like, I wanna have sex. I wanna be intimate. And he would be like, I am too tired. Because I, he was, his association was, I have to do it this way. I have to give it a hundred percent. And so we got into this rut, you know, earlier on in our relationship where I was wanting more intimacy and he was associating that with more work.

Yeah. And so we gotta have this like healing and rec reclamation moment where I said, what would it look like if we just made it out, you know, and, and cuddled. And then just see what happens. It doesn't need to, you know. What if I gave you an amazing blow job and you had to do nothing, right? He was like, really?

I don't like, are you sure you're not gonna want sex after? And I was like, Nope. I just wanna, I just wanna suck your cock. I really do. I really wanna connect with your cock. Can I please? Totally, totally. And, and then I remember that the specific time where I did that and, and, and like, like halfway through, he is like, I think I wanna fuck you now.

And I was like, Nope, we are just sucking your cock today, sir. We are rewriting, like what it means for [00:52:00] you to need to perform and, and to, you know, to have sex a certain way. And it was, it was really, really healing for him to, to have, you know, that type of experience. Um. I also see a lot of people that think that they're asexual, which is a real thing.

Like you can really be asexual. I don't wanna minimize the, the reality of, of that, you know, type of sexual orientation, but I've also seen so many people that think that they're asexual because they're not getting what they want, or they don't know what they want sexually. So for example, I can think of one of my friends who thought she was asexual and then she discovered kink and BDSM and then she kind of just like blew up and became a sex and intimacy icon.

You know, she thought she was asexual and like on the, it's, it's, it's insane to me. Yeah. So. Um, yeah. I think that there's just so much space for people to evolve their relationship to what sex and intimacy means as well.

Dr. Nicole: Totally, totally, totally. I'm so glad you said [00:53:00] that because I think I've seen a lot of that in my client work.

People who identify as asexual, which as absolutely a real identity, and then also transform into different points of their life where they say, actually, I don't think this label fits me anymore. Or because of the trauma that I endured, this is how I responded. Right? And so we have to hold space for all of the different journeys that that label can mean for people, um, because I've truly seen it in my client office of people who say that and then transform and get to another space with it.

And so I think one of the biggest things I try to tell people is change is inevitable. Like just. Like who you are right now is Yes. You, all of you, E every bit. Absolutely. Glow in it, dance in it. Yes. And also things might change, you know, or I shouldn't even say, might, they will change. You are going to continue to evolve, hopefully, into a deeper, more authentic version of yourself that can go into different phases of different experiences.

And so some things might [00:54:00] stay, some things might change. And I'm so glad that you had that experience with your husband and that you drew the line because. You know, even though he got into that moment and of saying like, oh, I want sex now. I think that it is so important, like you said, to rewrite the neuronal pathways of that experience and actually hold to that boundary and say, you know what, no, just for today we are actually holding it.

I get you're excited now, but we need to hold this so that you can at least have an, a experience of having this sort of connection and it not going all the way to X, Y, Z. So you can relearn how to connect and I think. Gosh, I, I wonder now what I'm still doing that I don't, I'm not even conscious of that.

I'll know in a couple of years. Right. But yeah. 'cause when you look at experiences like that or my past self, you're like, damn, I had so many narratives of what this meant, of what I was supposed to do. So many scripts, right? And so the more you unpeel and more you, you start to see, wow, there's so much play, so much [00:55:00] possibility.

And there's this whole world where I used to look at it as such a direct lane of A, B, C, D, like I said, right? I couldn't say no to the sex until we hit. The end quote unquote, what the fuck is the end? Right? Like what Exactly Right. And then that's, I hope not. I don't totally. Once you see life as erotic in all senses, you're like, oh, okay.

It never ends. This is always a dance with it. Okay, I'm feeling it here. I've got it there. This press was orgasmic. Right? Like it doesn't really end in that sense.

Leola: Yeah. It's all either sex or it's foreplay until the What is for play?

Dr. Nicole: Oh my God. Foreplay is everything. It's just play folks.

Leola: Yep.

Dr. Nicole: Absolutely.

And so I think that part of the transformative work of that is finding community spaces, whether it's a podcast, a healer, a therapist, wherever it is, a lover, right? For you. I've had so many transformative lovers that have really pulled me to new dimensions, [00:56:00] sexological body workers, right? This is inherently a relational practice.

Um, and so finding the community spaces, I think is a really, really big, um, piece of being able to, to envision more for your life. Finding that first play party that you grew to, and you're seeing that person have that amazing scene, right? You start to dream of a new world. Yep.

Leola: Yep. It's beautiful. And wishing everyone, you know, the, the greatest pleasure and curiosity and, you know, surrender into that, into that journey with discernment as well.

Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. I'd be curious if you were to connect back with your younger self all the way back at the beginning of the journey or wherever you're feeling connected to when you envision her, I am curious what words of wisdom, uh, you'd have for her.

Leola: Uh, you know, [00:57:00] I would give her my book. Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: So here are the codes.

Read it front to back a million times.

Leola: Yeah. Yeah. I think that, you know, overall though, the message would be that all of your like desires and yearning are normal and there's a sacredness there and there's Yeah. There's just nothing wrong with you and, you know, be curious and be open. Be safe. But see that this, this life force within you is sacred and so, so powerful and is going to be the magic ingredient to your dream life.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Keep following that thread of pleasure.

Leola: Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And I also wanted to ask you something that's coming to me in this moment. You know, when you were talking about the dynamics with your husband and the, the rut, I think a lot of us can fall into patterns of relationships, and that is all types [00:58:00] of relationships, whether it's family, friends, lovers, we fall into patterns.

And particularly I think a big space of suffering for folks is sexual patterns with partners, particularly long-term partners, when you feel like you're in that rut. And so, you know, you spoke a little bit to getting out of that, but could you speak just to the emotional journey that that's been for you and your relationship?

Leola: I feel really fortunate that I went into this relationship with a lot of tools. Yeah. Yes. And, you know, and so that made a big difference. But it was definitely not always like that. And I had many relationships where there was a rut and you know, over time the sex tended to get less juicy and less interesting and less fun and less, and I feel really grateful.

Like my husband and I were just talking the other day, we're like, the sex is better than ever. Yeah. And, you know, it, it, it's, that's totally possible, but [00:59:00] it does require a, um, ability to understand that there's gonna be different seasons as well as deaths. Like the, like we just went through a really big portal this summer of, of death in our relationship.

And, you know, some of the things that we thought were gonna be key parts of our, our vision for our relationship forever really evolved and transformed. And, and so there's a piece of being. Um, being willing and open and curious when it, when you're going through death and trusting that there's gonna be a rebirth and be something really juicy and exciting on the other side.

I think another piece is the more that we work on our relationship to ourselves and our own, the greater we're going to be able to meet our partner in the same way and even inspire or invite our partner into greater self-awareness, which will then impact, you know, the relationship in depth. You know, I call this in a way, this is a lot of the work that I teach in, in Pleasure priestess, [01:00:00] um, or the, the work that I do with women, and it's really about, you know, seducing the world or our partner into a greater good by being evidence of, you know, this deeply connective healing and empowered intimacy.

Mm-hmm. And again, this starts with your relationship to yourself. Yep. And, you know, just really being dedicated to mastering this energy within you. So even with my husband and I, we still self-pleasure just as much as we have Right. Partner sex. And I love self-pleasure just as much as I love, you know, sex with my husband.

I really, really do. Um, because to me it's like, it's my, it's a, one of the ways that I pray, it's like meditation. Uh, I think that that's just another really important piece is, you know, that relationship to, to yourself that then is able to be mirrored and met.

Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I like to invite people to look in the mirror and ask themselves if they're turned on right.

If you can't look in that mirror and be turned on by yourself, [01:01:00] what are you bringing to other people? Who are you seeing? You know? Gosh, I also remember too, in my own journey, just. I live by myself, and I love that feminist dream for myself, right? And yet I would be masturbating under the sheets. Like what?

Like it was still something like, oh, oh, like let me keep this covered and I owned the apartment, or well, I was renting, but like I have my own apartment. No one is coming in. What is this? Like, why is Sky Daddy still in my head? You know, like, oh my God. Being able to like throw the sheets off and actually Foley like, here's my toys, here's my lube, here's my content.

Oh my God, here's the music. Let's go. You know, the lights are on right. That empowers you to such a different level to connect with people. And I think at that time in my life, I think because of the cultural conditioning that I got, any sort of partner [01:02:00] dynamic felt totally okay. Like that's fine. That's allowed, quote unquote, but anything solo was taboo.

How dare I? Oh no. And so getting to a space where I felt empowered enough to pleasure myself, that's where you get the communication skills to say, wow, no, this amount of pressure over here with this amount of lube and penetration, please can we adjust that? Because you've done all that by yourself to know.

Oh my God. Yeah. And I think about when you had shared with your husband too. I mean, there is so much more expansiveness in terms of the frames of how we see it. And I think what I, the question that was coming to mind that I wanted to ask you was, what does sex with your husband mean to you?

Leola: What does sex with my husband mean to me?

It's really, really important to me. Sex with my husband is very, very important and valuable to me. To me it is, it's [01:03:00] connection. It's really embodying the sacred union, lost in timelessness. It's also deeply healing for me as a woman that like loves to express and be in her sensuality. To get to share that with my husband is healing and empowering.

It's magic. Like all of our sex is sex magic as well. Uh. It's devotion. Yeah, it's me devotion to him and his body and seeing him as, you know, a version of my God like he is God embodied. Um, and then also feeling that reciprocated to me, like seeing him treat my body like a temple, but it's also like a playground.

It's like, let's get weird and wild and growl at each other and explore our. Animal body is our primal energy. So it's [01:04:00] like this, the space to also bring in darkness in a really healthy and intentional way. What is our sex not, I don't know

Dr. Nicole: exactly. I knew I was gonna ask and it was just gonna expand all the way out, but I think that's the point.

When I think about so many people who don't have the language, right? This is something that, again, in my past self, past consciousness, I had no language. I had no understanding, I had nothing. And so then to hear an empowered woman speak to what this means we're, we're forming more language, more worlds.

And of course there's podcasts, there's your book, right? But just to hear you and your own voice, like speak to that, I hope it can open something for people to see their own relationships, their own dynamics through.

Leola: I loved that question. You ask amazing questions by the way.

Dr. Nicole: Thank you. That's the therapist part of the whole consciousness.

Yeah. Um, and I think the other question I wanted to ask too was, [01:05:00] I feel like I've seen in some of your content you speak to like a monogamish dynamic. Is that still something you're playing with exploring? And I'd love to hear where that's at for you.

Leola: So when my husband and I very first got together, literally on our first date, I was very clear that I wanted a relationship that was deeply committed, deeply, deeply committed, but also there was this level of freedom to explore all that I am and to have it be okay that I have other desires or interests or or magnetism with other individuals.

And to, um, to have this allyship in that if I were to meet someone that wasn't my husband out in the wild, and I felt this in insane poll, kind of like the poll that I had spoken to with the man I very first intelligence.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah.

Leola: But I just felt like there's something here. God put this person in my life for me to learn something [01:06:00] or to contribute to them.

So I wanted to be with someone that that could hold that. And after it, like immediately after I said that, and this was risky for me, this was a risk for me to share this, but I was at this point where I was like, I'm ready to meet my husband. I had made the list of all the things, this was a clear, this is what I need.

And when I told him that, he said, I'm gonna marry you. I didn't know that there were women that wanted something like that. And throughout the course of our relationship that we've recognized what that looks like for each of us. And it looks a little bit different and learning, growing and, and I think that it's, we also went into the relationship choosing not to.

Marry into a particular relating style. So we're not, we didn't say we're gonna be monogamous forever. We didn't say we're polyamorous. We've just decided that in each season of the relationship, we'll feel into what is the most expansive and liberating for us in that chapter. And so it has evolved and changed a lot over [01:07:00] time.

But I would say monogamous has been the most, uh, stable, like relating style that we've chosen. And for those that are listening that aren't familiar, monogamous is like, we're mostly monogamous, but we do have other partners occasionally and we play together. And, and sometimes that is looked like only playing with other people when we're both present and together.

And sometimes that has looked like, you know, I'm gone for a week working and, you know, he is, uh, hiring a tantric body worker and, and, or, you know, whatever. And so, um, it's, it's looked very different. I would say like over the summer actually wasn't even that long. Like we had like a month or two where we were a little bit more monogamous.

We've opened up a little bit since then, but we're just in this time where, uh, a lot has, a lot has changed for us really quickly. My husband was diagnosed with bipolar two and so it just made sense for us to, to kind of like contract into our relationship [01:08:00] a bit and give that the focus and the presence.

But we're already now starting to vibrate back out and, and, and open and be curious and I'm sure that there will be, you know, chapters forthcoming when maybe I'm pregnant that, you know, I wanna lock things down again. So, um, yeah, we're, we're just here for we is the evolution and just being super curious and not being attached to the labels.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like that's such an important part of the journey is to invite people into creating the relationships that bring themselves pleasure and what feels authentic for that time and space. And then realizing that again, change is inevitable, right? So something that feels expansive and liberatory at this moment can start to feel too chaotic, unpredictable, where are we going?

How many people are you talking to? Right? And in other moments, maybe that feels, you know, like you wanna go back down and have the capsule be [01:09:00] close, and then that might start, start to feel like a straight jacket and you say, I need to get back. Right? So I think it's just that ebb and flow, like how can we be in dynamic with our people, with our community, to make sure that we're still always in connection with that erotic power and what it's speaking to.

Because again, change is the only constant. So we just know that even that thing you start with at the beginning might become the thing that you say, I will never do that again. You know, and vice versa. And so I, I just hope we can invite people to be in that perpetual dance, be in that perpetual relationship with change.

Leola: Absolutely. Well done. Well said.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And I'm sure it feels good. I think that's what gives, like, sometimes I guess when I used to think about a world of one dynamic, I would feel kind of restricted. Yeah. What if I change my mind? What if, you know, there are seasons where I don't wanna have sex with anybody other than myself.

Right. And in that space, I always think about, my metaphor is, um, living at the [01:10:00] beach. I live at the beach. My house is at the beach. I don't have to get in the water, but should I want to get in the water, it's there. Right. And having that sort of freedom yeah, gives me some sort of space to breathe into rather than here's the identity and the label and the box and this is what I am, which feels like maybe I'm trying to put up a wall or a fence around the beach with a gate.

You know? It's like, nope, it's there. Whether we walk through it or not is a conversation. Yeah, absolutely.

Leola: Yeah. And it definitely pays to have a partner in these dynamics that is, you know, has a similar vision for the relationship. Absolute. Also see someone in this space feeling like, oh, having that flow of like we could change at any time could feel really scary and induce a lot of anxiety.

So there's, there's so many ways. To get curious about how you can make each relating style or even how you decide on a relating style work. Like, you know, I've seen, I've seen, um, partners [01:11:00] say, okay, we're gonna be monogamous for the next four months and then, and we're committing to that and there's no way it's gonna change.

And then at four months we're gonna assess. And so it creates that safety of like, okay, like ah, like I can relax, I can soften, I can breathe and know that, you know, at the end of this period we will have a really high vibe conversation too.

Dr. Nicole: You know? Right. Abac. Exactly. Maybe you're on internship like myself and going, wow, less change would be really nice right now.

'cause I'm moving through some other ones. Can we pause for a moment? You know, and like you, I think that even in my own journey with non-monogamy, it's been, um, something to like to take that space and to know that you can ask for that. Right? And that's not necessarily a restriction on other people's liberation.

It's a reality of the time and space and location that you're in. And it's okay to say, hey. There's a lot moving on in my world right now, and I think I need to slow down in this space. Are you willing to meet me there?

Leola: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: Well, I wanna check in with you and see if you [01:12:00] have anything else that you wanna share with the listeners.

Otherwise I can guide us towards a closing question.

Leola: I feel complete on the wisdom piece.

Dr. Nicole: Good. All right. So then I'll ask you the last closing question that I ask everyone on the podcast, and that is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

Leola: Uh, what's coming through now is just nudity, you know, obviously we've talked a lot about sex and sexuality on this podcast, but one piece is this sexualization of the naked human body when in reality our naked bodies have sex.

So little of the time that we're actually here and it's our, our naked bodies under our clothes very often that are, you know, moving us through day to day. And you know, it's our bodies that climb mountains and [01:13:00] fall down and pick ourselves back up again and pick us swimming in the ocean and laugh until we cry and hold the ones we love.

Like, that's all happening in our body. It's not in our clothes. Right. And so I think that there's lots of space for seeing that the naked body is normal and gets to be celebrated.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What was coming to mind for me was even just the concept of, uh, breastfeeding.

Leola: Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Nicole: God forbid I see a boob as it feeds the baby, which is how we got to have civilization like this.

Like people lose their minds.

Leola: I can't wait till I have a baby and someone yells at me for breastfeeding. Fuck right off.

Dr. Nicole: Right. It's like it's only literally the most natural thing. Yeah. And yet one. Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, [01:14:00] just for me, the power of going into like nude, um, beaches, nude spa spaces, literally, yeah.

Play parties anywhere where you can get to be in your body. It's kind of like a, a, a plant medicine trip of its first, you know, of its own kind. The first time you do it, you're like, oh, oh my God, what is this world? And then you get more natural. You find your space of it, you feel good. And I think that has been such a transformation, like we've said in this conversation in different ways.

It's not just the sexuality. It ripples out into all areas of your life that you naturally start to feel a little bit more comfortable in your body as you move through all situations.

Leola: It's so true.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Leola: So, so, so, so true.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Well, it's been a joy to have you on the podcast. Thank you for joining us today.

Leola: Yeah, thanks for having me. And for anyone that's interested in buying the book, you can get it on Amazon Sacred Sex Ed, and if you buy the book and you go to my website, talk to to me.com/book. There's some free bonuses, [01:15:00] um, including over 30 hours of, uh, additional educational content that's different from the book.

And, um, you can find me on, um, Instagram at talk to me as well.

Dr. Nicole: Great. I'll have all that linked in the show notes below so people can find you. So thank you for joining us again.

Leola: Thanks so much love, and thank you so much for the listeners, for opening yourself up to this taboo and sacred and sexy combo.

Hell yeah. Hell yeah.

Dr. Nicole: Great. If you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast, and head on over to modern anarchy podcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I wanna thank you for tuning in, and I will see you all next week.