228. Integrating the Body, Psychedelics, and Liberation with Geoff Bathje
- Nicole Thompson
- Aug 30
- 55 min read
Dr. Nicole: [00:00:00] Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host Nicole.
On today's episode, we have Geoff join us for a conversation about embodying the values of Anarchy. Together we talk about bypassing versus integrating, practicing prefigurative politics and writing thicker narratives. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday.
My name is Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic [00:01:00] integration therapy, and I am also the founder of the Pleasure Practice supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships. Dear listener, wow, this is such a special episode to be sharing with all of you.
Geoff is one of my mentors and supervisors at Sana Healing Collective, which is where truly, I learned everything that I do know about psychedelics. And so, dear listener, you have heard me talk about the frameworks of liberation with psychedelics and the politics of it all, and the clinical healing. And today's episode is definitely honoring all of the training that I've learned from Geoff and from the whole Sana Healing Collective team.
And it's really exciting to be sharing this with you because, you know, dear listener, that I'm always talking about what it means to be in [00:02:00] community, how we grow, heal, and learn in community. And so. To be sharing one of my community members and someone that I've learned so much from. It's, it's really powerful to be sharing this with all of you listeners.
And I'm really excited to say that I am doing my postdoc at Sana Healing Collective. And so if you wanna learn more about psychedelic integration therapy, ketamine assisted psychotherapy talk therapy, the consultation groups that we run at Sana Healing Collective with Geoff I and the whole team, I highly recommend going to check out sauna healing collective.org, which will be linked in the show notes below.
And. Yeah. Dear listeners, so much more to come in this space. So much more to come. And I recorded this just before I was going on my internship, uh, right at the end of my practicum training. And it's a really beautiful time capsule and reminder of [00:03:00] all of the things that I learned in my training and everything I'm bringing back to my postdoc with Sauna.
And so excited to be on this journey with you. I, dear listener, in getting to share these powerful, powerful episodes with you each Wednesday.
All right, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and resources@modernanarchypodcast.com, linked in the show notes below. And I wanna say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon members, you are supporting the long-term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content free and accessible to all people.
So thank you. If you wanna join the Patreon community, get exclusive access into my research and personal exploration, you can head on over to patreon.com/modern Anarchy podcast, also linked in the show notes below. [00:04:00] And with that, dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love and let's tune in to today's episode.
And then the first question I ask each guest is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?
Dr. Geoff: So I, um, do a lot of different things or have done a lot of different things over time. I've been a professor, I'm not currently, uh, I have been a researcher not currently doing much with, with research. I, um, have been an advocate and done policy work, uh, which I'm still doing.
I, um, co-founded a nonprofit organization called Ana Healing Collective.
Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Geoff: Um, which is where I moved away from some other things to focus on that. Uh, and we provide ketamine assisted therapy and [00:05:00] psychedelic integration, and we work to incorporate other psychedelics as they become available. Mm-hmm.
So that it'll change over time.
Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Well it's a joy to have you on the podcast space. He is. You have also been my mentor and my supervisor in that space at Sauna, so I could definitely get emotional about the joys of having you in this space and everything that I've learned from you. And it's so special, I think, to have you on the podcast particularly.
'cause I've talked so much about psychedelics and learning from Sauna Healing Collective and you and everyone there. So it's such a joy to get to have you here and share more of you with all the listeners on the podcast.
Dr. Geoff: Yeah. Great. Thank you. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Nicole: Appreciate that. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Geoff: And it's been, uh, a joy to learn a lot from you as, as well.
And, and, uh, yeah. Look forward to seeing where this conversation goes.
Dr. Nicole: Yeah. So tell me a little bit more about your work with psychedelics.
Dr. Geoff: So I started in. About 2016 offering some psychedelic integration and about 2017 [00:06:00] starting to go with my clients to their ketamine infusions, to different clinics. And so that's really where it started in, in the work for me.
And around that time, in 2017 as well, started offering a free open monthly meeting called Psychedelic Safety Support and Integration, which you can find on Facebook. There's no webpage, just a Facebook page. Where we post the monthly event. But, uh, the, the idea there was we were seeing a lot of people not have, uh, good access to information within the context of war on drugs and, and sometimes doing, uh, riskier things or, um, having unrealistic expectations for what psychedelics could do given the context they were, uh, using them in.
And so, you know, really understandable given the kind of propagandized harm and then the mm-hmm. Counter efforts to highlight what the, what the best case scenarios could be. That, that people were often, you know, kinda missing what the, the, the average or typical experiences could be, uh, or what they were more likely to be and how to best facilitate those.
It was very drug focused, uh, narrative either way and, and kind of leaving out set and setting. And so the idea was to, to [00:07:00] bring in some psychoeducation, uh, also to bring in community building. A lot of people didn't. Have other people to talk to about these things, who would be understanding of it. So even if they had a great experience, people would treat it like it was just, uh, you know, uh, abnormal or, or, or they're delusional or something.
And then to give people a space to do some integration, which is the post, uh, psychic processing of the experiences.
Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah, there was definitely parts of me in terms of preparing for this conversation where I was thinking what could we share? Mm-hmm. You know, after training with you and everyone for the last two years, how could we condense some of the most important pieces mm-hmm.
Into, you know, a bite-size, uh, discussion. And I think you've already hit on a couple of those things. The set and setting the narrative and the integration. Mm-hmm. And I'm curious if there's anything more that you'd want to share for the listeners who might not be as familiar with those concepts. And I know we could spend hours mm-hmm.
Talking about it. Right, right, right. Um, which is the joy of it all. But are there some things that you would want to impart the listeners with that you think would [00:08:00] be helpful that you've learned over the years?
Dr. Geoff: Yeah. So if, if I take a step back first, you know, these projects are, are, are pretty political too, right?
Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, so there's also the equity and access and, and justice issues, uh, that, that go into this. That these are medicines that have been used by humans for, um, thousands of years that continue to be used in a, a handful of indigenous cultures uninterrupted, uh, during that time period. Um, and so there's so, so where this information comes from is really important.
Uh, what we do with that information is important. And, you know, so there are all kinds of considerations to be made around things like, uh, appropriation and are the, uh, cultures that we're learning from, uh, getting any benefit, or are they primarily getting harmed as we expand psychedelics? And, and so, um, starting our organization, Ana Healing Collective is a nonprofit and is an organization that is non hierarchal and, and leadership works by consensus.
That that was all an important Yeah. [00:09:00] Um, consideration in it too, given that, uh. Yeah, just, just the, the nature of things is such that psychedelics are formed in a fairly elite exclusionary, uh, white and wealthy dominated way. And that's, you know, partly to do with the, the war on drugs and, you know, not being able to get any federal funding for research, for example.
So having to rely on wealthy, uh, philanthropy and yeah, private donors, right? Mm-hmm. So, so there's all this context to it as well, but, uh, so, so those are all part of the picture, but I, but I think, um, maybe the first thing I'll, I'll throw out there just for some discussion around integration
Dr. Nicole: Yeah.
Dr. Geoff: Is there's this critique that, that in the west we're already pretty.
Disintegrated and out of balance and non holistic in how we approach things. And so even as we have in philosophy rejected MINDBODY dualism and practice, not so much. Mm-hmm. Uh, so, so our, our medical system is very MINDBODY dualistic. Your physician is very unlikely to ever ask it anything about your, um, stress level or, or mental health, aside from maybe a brief screening [00:10:00] measure measure or a, uh, non-trauma informed series of questions about Yeah.
Your, your trauma history. And they're still very much not trained in that area. And, and so, you know, if, if anything, it seems like healthcare is moving towards more and more silos and people specializing down to micro levels and things. And so I don't necessarily see that improving. I see that largely getting worse in the past decade, even as we've had these calls for like a bio psychosocial spiritual model and, and things that sound more holistic and integrated, but really are still about like, trying to piece back together these things that are research very separately.
And so it's like, it's a. I sometimes give the, the metaphor of like, even if you had all the in ingredients to a chocolate chip cookie, if you just throw 'em in a, in a bowl together without knowing how to, how to, how to cook them, uh, yeah. Not gonna taste anything like a chocolate chip, chip cookie.
Dr. Nicole: Yeah.
It's a good metaphor.
Dr. Geoff: And so if you don't kind of have all these things equal and mixed together and baked in the right way, even having all these different silos of information don't get us any closer to holistic understanding of people.
Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. [00:11:00] Absolutely. Yeah. You going, go ahead.
Dr. Geoff: Yeah. Yeah. And so that, that touches into integration, right?
So, so given that we have all these ways that we categorize and compartmentalize and create dualities, you know, mind, body, person, environment, you know, it's very black and white and binary in our thinking in many ways, around gender, around sexuality, around mm-hmm. In all these different ways that, uh, how can people in this culture be anything but, uh.
Kind of fragmented and unintegrated. Mm-hmm. And so the question is, you know, I think normally when we talk about psychedelic integration, we're thinking about you have this psychedelic experience and you have to find a way to kind of process it and integrate that into, into your life, into your mental health.
And same would be true of talk therapy, right? You have an insight, right? It doesn't necessarily change your life. You figure out what you, what do you do with that? And how do you mm-hmm. Respond to that insight. And so I think that often what we do, because we're so disintegrated in the first place, is we try to not change ourselves by integrating that experience, but take the bits of the experience that fit within our current lives and [00:12:00] then set aside the rest, right?
Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Geoff: So if we discover that, uh, our work or our relationships or, or our lifestyle really aren't suiting us, those are big things to change and might be impossible to change depending on your context and at least in the short term. And, and so it's easier to kind of take the more, uh. Palatable and easy to integrate pieces and kind of try to push aside the rest,
Dr. Nicole: right?
Dr. Geoff: And, and, and culturally you could ask if we're doing that. So where we really, uh, shift shifting our culture with the, you know, with the insights that we would get from psychedelics or we, you know, or we trying to accommodate it into, into capitalistic business models and, and kind of, you know, pharmaceutical patents and all these type of things.
Yeah. So, so are we, yeah. Are we bypassing or are we integrating Is the the question to be asking ourselves as individuals and collectively task ourselves?
Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. The yes and to the, to the scary and the beautiful journeys. Yeah. And I think in terms of training at SoFi the last two years, it's been interesting to think about all of the other [00:13:00] metaphorically psychedelic experiences that we have and how you can apply some of these same frameworks across the board, uh, to different experiences.
I think definitely in this. Space. I've talked a lot about, you know, points of expansion in terms of sexuality. You have that first kink scene, you have that first threesome, you have that first non-monogamous experience and how mm-hmm. These two are psychedelic paradigm shifts that you then can integrate into your life moving forward.
Mm-hmm. Ideally, right? Whether it was a difficult experience or a really joyful one. Yeah. What are you taking from that to move forward? I think another example is even like death in our culture, right? That's a pretty big paradigm, psychedelic experience, and how are we integrating that into our life moving forward?
And so I think it's been really interesting to see how the paradigms of psychedelics and how we integrate that is also applicable to other really sort of life, um, paradigm shifting experiences and how we can learn from that framework.
Dr. Geoff: Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And there too, right? Like there's this great terence [00:14:00] mechanic quote I was looking up.
Um, so it's not a new idea. He died 25 years ago or something, but, uh, so the famous person in relation to psychedelics, but, uh, he said that the problem is not to find the answer, the problem is to face the answer.
Dr. Nicole: Mm.
Dr. Geoff: And so, and so, I think that's kind of speaks to what we were talking about there. It's like, you know, we, we often, as, as therapists, help people kind of find, uh, answers, gain insight into things.
But then, you know, what do we do with that? That's actually where the, the harder part comes.
Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And I think one of the biggest pieces is remembering that it's all about the community. That's one of, you know, yeah. The biggest pieces of sauna is that, you know, say I had trained in a space where it was very capitalistic and hierarchical, I would've had a very different perspective to psychedelics.
And that's often what we see, right? As you can have that sort of experience be, you know, I've joked on the podcast, be surrounded by business bros. And then say, how do we capitalize on this and make it really expensive so we can make money off of it, right? Mm-hmm. So remembering that, you know, the psychedelic itself is not always gonna necessarily give us these insights as [00:15:00] much as it is the community that is around you when you are integrating the experience.
Mm-hmm. Or even preparing.
Dr. Geoff: Yeah, yeah, yeah. What you said there is like this culture, uh, under capitalism has, and under, under states in general, if you don't need ne, even, even it wasn't capitalist, uh, maintain all sorts of tools and, and strategies to kind of put you back to sleep. Should you wake up a little bit.
Yeah. So, right. So. Like we go from, had this transcendent experience, uh, with whatever, with a psychedelic or, or somewhere else in life. And then how do we, uh, extract from that and monetize it, right? Yeah. So it's very quickly, we'll, we'll kind of, uh, you know, and you'll see too, right? As you, as you form an expertise in an area, people will kind of, uh, see things within you that you, you knowledge within you that they could extract from too.
Mm-hmm. And so you'll have weird interactions the more you learn about something.
Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And so we're talking a little bit about the set and setting, which I, I know I've talked to you about where do we draw the line when your mindset is inherently [00:16:00] relational, or at least I see it as inherently relational, right?
Where do we draw the line between the two, but talking about the settings of our culture and how that impacts our experience. Mm-hmm. And I'm curious if this could maybe be a point to explore the concepts of non-specific amplifier. And I know I've heard you talk a lot about also the ways that psychedelics specifically amplify imbalances.
And so maybe we could talk a little bit more about your theories with that.
Dr. Geoff: Yeah. In my understanding, they've heard the non-specific amplifier idea thrown out in a lot of different context where sometimes it's hard for me to know what people mean when they're, when they're saying that. Right. And so, but I, but I think it, you know, that that idea kinda came out as a critique to the idea that we should just put LSD in the water and everyone would be great.
Right. So mm-hmm. So that would be implying that they're gonna amplify the good, they're gonna amplify our best attributes if we could just put it in the water. And so I think the non-specific amplifier is a, is, is a good critique of that idea that would go in a bad direction for some people, maybe for a lot of people.
'cause we wouldn't have the set and [00:17:00] setting to prepare for it.
Dr. Nicole: Consent.
Dr. Geoff: Right, right. And so I think the non-specific amplifier idea in, in that context. You know, it means that, uh, might just kind of amplify the, the things that you're, that are already part of your set, that you're already kind of on your mind that, that, uh, that are in your immediate circumstances.
And so if that's not a, a context or a preparation that supports a. You know, kinda a beneficial, psychedelic experience, and you might not have a beneficial experience. Right. So, so, so in that sense, I, I, I, I kinda agree with it. I also think that psychedelics though, do amplify the things that we bring into our set and settings, the things that we prepare ourselves with, kinda outside of ourselves and within ourselves.
And so in that sense, I think they're, they're not non-specific. I think they will amplify the things that are kind of most front of mind or most present in front of you. And so if we can create a good healing context with support and trust and integrity, then, then, then those things are likely to be amplified.
If we, if you have experiences and nature, then your connection to nature is likely to be [00:18:00] amplified. Or if you just kind of, you know, have engaged, uh, ideas or, or symbols of nature like having flowers around you or, or pictures of nature or something. Mm-hmm. Um, so, so I do think those things then will get.
Amplified. And so I guess, you know, one person might say that's non-specific in the sense that it could have been anything if we put, you know, images of war that would get amplified, right? Yeah. So, so might just be kind of more language than anything where I would say that. It makes it not so non-specific.
Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I know we've talked about how it amplifies attachment feelings, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Geoff: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. There's, you know, there's perspectives that, uh, an article that's. Kind of, uh, elicit a lot of a debate about like, uh, you know, authoritarianism in relation to psychedelics and I, and I think they were, that that's where they were stretching the, uh, non-specific amplifier a little bit too far for me.
That, uh, you don't see any authoritarian dictators dosing their populations with psychedelics. I think that would be an incredibly bad thing to do. 'cause they're kind of disruptive and if you're wanting a narrow, uh, single story ideology, uh, they will not amplify that. Like, [00:19:00] like I think that's super unlikely, uh, even if maybe the odd cult leader has been able to bring some people into whatever their beliefs are and, and control.
Sure. It is more about power than, than, uh, than anything else there.
Dr. Nicole: Right. Yeah. Disruptors highlighting the imbalances. I think this is where also maybe the metaphor of your inner healing wisdom mm-hmm. Could be important, right? Mm-hmm. I know that's something that we definitely talk a lot about at sauna, right?
That, that trusting of the same ways that your body knows how to heal after a scar, right? And it can naturally have that sort of healing experience going into the psychedelic with the same sort of framework, right? Mm-hmm. Of trusting that what is coming up is, is for your healing, but of course, that's within the specific container, I guess, of a therapeutic or healing sort of scenario.
Dr. Geoff: Yeah. And there, I mean, that also challenges the non-specific amplifier, right? If you, if you, if you, if you think that our, our bodies and our minds don't work in random ways
Dr. Nicole: [00:20:00] mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Geoff: Uh, we wouldn't have evolved to, you know, our bodies don't randomly just misfire, totally contextualize to like. The, you know, all sorts of things, the type of nutrients I'm taking in the exercise I get.
So it's not that things don't go wrong in the body, they do, but often there's a, you know, I mean, always there's an explanation for that, right? Like if we had a, if you had a house plant that was dying, you wouldn't assume the house plant was defective. You would assume something's off with the nutrients or the watering schedule, or the sunlight.
Plants are simpler than humans have many needs, so it's easy for us to see that. But, you know, humans exist within the range of possibilities, the conditions that are presented to them. Whether physical body or mind. Yeah.
Dr. Nicole: Right. And I feel like one of the questions I'd always get with, um, people who are asking more about psychedelics are, uh, what's the difference between all of them?
You know, we have all these different types of psychedelics and you know, they do amplify different things, right? Mm-hmm. Whether it's somatically, you know, or various mind states, but you would always talk [00:21:00] about psychedelics as the multiple doors to the same consciousness, is what I've heard learning from you.
So I'm curious. Different, yeah. Talk about different substances. Different, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because it is true that, you know, if we say, oh, nonspecific amplifier, which we just spent a little bit more time unpacking, you know, the experience of MDMA is different than ketamine. It is a quite literally different somatic experience and also a different mental experience.
So that non-specific amplifier doesn't really get into the unique experiences of all the different types of psychedelics. Mm-hmm. But I would always hear you talk about how yeah, they're different doors to a similar space of consciousness.
Dr. Geoff: Yeah, I, I think so. I think it's, and so what I'm really saying with that is I don't think that the molecular level stuff and neurotransmitter level stuff is the most important thing.
I think it's, it's an experience with a, an, an altered state of, uh, consciousness that is, uh, where a lot of the novelty and benefit of psychedelics comes from. And so, um, so yeah, sometimes I'll say that, that the particular drug isn't so important as, um, you [00:22:00] know, I think of those maybe as, uh, just different doorways into an altered state of consciousness.
They all have their own feel and we may, uh. Be more comfortable with different substances because of that feel, that's more individual kind of personal level. But I, I don't think we'll ever get to a point where, um, where we can just say this, this drug is good for this condition, even though that's kind of what FDA demands.
Like you have to research a, a substance for a specific condition, one condition.
Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Geoff: So it looks like MDMA is the PTSD drug and psilocybin is the depression drug and it's, and so on and so forth. Right. But that's just kind of an artifact of FDA process that you have to pick a condition and research it for that.
And, and so, like for example, what you find out of the MDMA studies is they also had a pretty substantial impact on substance use and depression, but those weren't. Not the primary outcome measure. And, and so I, I think of psychedelics in, in general as being very good disruptors of, uh, our patterns.
Dr. Nicole: Mm.
Dr. Geoff: Um, so if I have a pattern of thought or an emotional pattern or relational pattern or particular things that, uh, trigger me or, uh, behavioral pattern [00:23:00] that it's really good at, you know, so that is represented at the neuro level, right?
Yeah. We have pathways that kind of support that, that make it hard to go in a different direction once the train leaves the station. Um, once you're on that track, then I think, um, you know, psychedelics put a lot of, uh, switches on the track and now you have the option to, to kind of get off that track and go in a different direction.
Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Geoff: Um, and, and literally you see that in, in the neuro mening. It, it hyper connects the brain. And so, metaphorically, I think of it that way is that psychedelics are really good, just disruptors and most of the things that people. Come to therapy before involving being stuck.
Dr. Nicole: Right,
Dr. Geoff: right. Uh, and on a, on a single track of behavior, thought, emotion, relationship, pattern, et cetera.
Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Geoff: Good at let, letting you jump tracks and, and kind of consider some other things, get some different perspectives, is another way to think about it.
Dr. Nicole: Shaking up the snow globe and having a, a different
Dr. Geoff: Yes. Like the fresh snowfall. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Cover up all those footprints and treks that, uh, you can go some new places.
Yep. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Geoff: Because they're helpful metaphors, but, uh, but yeah, [00:24:00] just recognizing those are, you know, kind of simplifications of everything that's going on there. But they're helpful. They're helpful to kind of understand what you can expect.
Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And I think an important piece of this conversation too, and training with you over the last two years is also the somatic piece.
I feel like there's often this discussion of psychedelics as being, you know, so cognitive going into a, a purely cognitive healing experience. Mm-hmm. And I've definitely talked to you a lot about, you know, the benefits of trying to turn off the cognitive and actually feel the amplification of your somatic experience on a, on a, mm-hmm.
A quieting of the mind and actually feeling the sensation. So I'm curious what you would say to the somatic experience of psychedelics as well, and the healing benefit there.
Dr. Geoff: Yeah. Um, and, and by the way, I know I go on a tangent, so feel free to call back to any question. If I, if I miss, if I miss major parts of it, which I know I'll,
Dr. Nicole: no, that's okay.
We're human. We're here. It's a conversation.
Dr. Geoff: Yeah. But, but yeah, with, with the somatic. Um, so, so if we're, [00:25:00] you know, kind of thinking more holistically, I think psychedelics are. Are things that can be helpful in, in disrupting these artificial dualisms that we've created. Right. And, and so that the mind body dualism is one of those dualisms, um, self and other is another one, you know, so, so, so yeah.
We can start with Yeah. With the somatic. But, um, yeah, the first time I, I did a topic on psychedelics in the, in the body for, it was for our, our free monthly group that I mentioned. Mm-hmm. And, um, uh, it was the biggest turnout we'd ever had for a, for a topic. Uh, cool. So normally we'd get, you know, maybe up to 20 people and we probably had 40 or 50 or something for that one.
And, and I remember like asking at the start, how many of you have ever had something interesting you happen? Uh, with MINDBODY connection, it's like, oh, everyone raise their hand. I mean's why there? Right,
Dr. Nicole: right.
Dr. Geoff: Um, and so, uh, so I think we, we start from realizing this is one of the ways that we're coming in disintegrated, right?
Is that we're kind of, um, trained not to. Pay as much attention to the body. Certainly if there's a conflict between mind and body to kinda ignore the, the, the body, right. [00:26:00] Rather than treat that as a, you know, really important source of information. Yeah. And, and, and kind of way of perceiving the world. And, and, and we have that in our language, right?
Like, like there's still recognized that our, that that value of intuition, uh, and, and, and putting the body into that is recognizing our language. When you say things like, follow your heart or trust your gut, uh hmm. Those are literal places where there's a lot of neurons and neurotransmitters,
Dr. Nicole: right.
Dr. Geoff: And brain body connection.
So you're, you're actually getting all kinds of information from those. Approximate areas in the body from the gut, uh, you know, if you talk about that much, but the, the second brain, there's a right, you know, about 1% of the, as many neurons as in the, the brain or in the gut. So it's very much capable of functioning autonomously, autonomously of perceiving the environment.
It has about nine connections. Informing and sending data to the brain for one connection going the other way. So the, the gut is very much a brain. Your, your immune system is very, has a memory and, and is capable of making decisions even though it's just floating cells in your blood.
Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Geoff: There's all [00:27:00] these networks that, you know, that, that we can kind of think of as, um, I, I like to think of as, as kind of like more like an ecosystem.
Yeah. That if you throw any one thing off, you know, in, in the, in the body, and I include the brain as part of the body Absolutely. But, uh, right. Um, that, that it can have all types of downstream, other implications. Right. Like, you, you take the frogs out of a swamp, you haven't just taken the frogs out of the swamp, like it's mm-hmm.
That's gonna reverberate through that whole ecosystem till it finds a new balance. And, and so I think, um, where somatics come in is, is that, uh, we, uh, those often get neglected in, in therapy. They often get, just get neglected in most people's life, uh, yeah. In their cultural experience, uh, as we're kind of conditioned to ignore that.
Right. Um, uh, which we should always ask why, like Yeah. Yeah. I was about to say
Dr. Nicole: who benefits,
Dr. Geoff: who benefits, right? Yeah. Yeah,
Dr. Nicole: yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Geoff: So may maybe industrial capitalism might have, uh, benefited by having you, um, you know, uh, not demand, um, high quality food and, uh, not excessive working hours and not, uh, dangerous [00:28:00] poisonous working conditions.
And so just ignore that body stuff.
Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Geoff: And, and I think that lingers. Yeah.
Dr. Nicole: Yep.
Dr. Geoff: So, so anyways, when you take a psychedelic kind of these, that, that's one of those patterns that might get get disrupted is you're, you're. Kind of ignoring and suppressing of, of, of stuff that's happening in the body.
And so then people might have these strong somatic experiences of, you know, whatever, just sensations they haven't experienced. Um, maybe, uh, traumas, uh, kind of the, the physically held aspects of traumas, resurfacing, um, shaking, trembling, hot and cold, those sorts of things just happening in the body during those, they're usually perplexed by it.
Uh, 'cause we're pretty separate from it. And this is supposed to be a psychological experience, right? Right.
Dr. Nicole: What is happening?
Dr. Geoff: Yeah. Yeah. But that's part of it, right? So yeah, that's one super system. It's one ecosystem.
Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I always think about how in animals, when you see them after they have a stressful situation, they, they shake.
Mm-hmm. Right. And 'cause of our [00:29:00] conditioning of what it means to be a normal put together human, that is not what I see most people doing after an experience of stress. Right. Or trauma Right. To shake it off or to dance or to do other things like that. And so I feel like yeah, in that amplified state, often that is what the body wants to do.
Right. It's to actually quite literally. Mm-hmm. Like shake it out. And I know you've spoken to experiences like that where it actually completely causes the body to shake and really release that tension. Mm-hmm. In a psychedelic experience.
Dr. Geoff: Yeah. Yeah. And that's, you know, one of the, one of the downsides of these, uh, complex minds that we have is that mm-hmm.
The mind can kind of, uh, these constructs, can overrule signals that we're getting, that something's bad for us. Uh, whether that's, uh, you know, a relationship or the state and economic system where the under whatever it is mm-hmm. Can kind of, uh, we can kind of find all sorts of ways from, uh, distracting ourselves or, um, dismissing those feelings.
And, and that can also get in the way of, of healing. And, and, and so that sometimes, like your, your body's trying to to work something out and do [00:30:00] some healing, and we just perceive that as an unpleasant, uncomfortable symptom. We want it to stop. But like the analogy sometimes give, like, you know, it's uncomfortable if you have a sliver in your finger for your body to, uh, get inflamed and, and try to.
But it's trying to push it out. Um
Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.
Dr. Geoff: And so, so that's why with, you know, with trauma, most people will tell you, for example, that the times when, when those, uh, symptoms are most present is not, when they're busy and stressed and going through life and occupied, it's when they try to like, relax and go to sleep or something.
Yeah. And you're very intelligent, very, you know, well evolved system says, uh, that if you're relaxed, the outside world must be safe at that moment. And that's a good time to work on the internal shit.
Dr. Nicole: Yeah.
Dr. Geoff: But in fact, maybe you need to go to, you just are trying to get to sleep for, for work the next day.
Yeah. So there's not room for that, like. The context doesn't allow you room for that. And then, um, and then the culture hasn't, uh, told you that that could be a benefit to, to, to let that work out, uh, or to find ways to, to be supported and, and, and, uh, letting that work out. And [00:31:00] so, mm-hmm. Um, so that's a lot we're doing in therapy, right.
Is trying to create the container, trying to create the space where it's okay to let that stuff out and to work through it.
Dr. Nicole: Yeah.
Dr. Geoff: Um, but obviously humans have always faced traumas and have found ways to, to work with them, so
Dr. Nicole: Yeah.
Dr. Geoff: Within the cultural context, within their relationships.
Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and how beautiful that our brain, our heart, wherever we, you know, whatever we wanna refer to it as, um, you know, will protect us.
You're right. Like when we are in that space of continually Yeah. Running in survival mode, you know, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go. You don't feel it Right. Until you're trying to go to sleep or until maybe some of those stressors in your life have calmed down and then all of a sudden it starts to flood forward.
Right? Yeah. Because, you know, I, I hear people, you know, the, the lack of compassion of judgment towards self. It's, it's remembering that your, your mind and your body is keeping you safe and not allowing you to go there because you are in that constant state of survival and now is not the time. And I think we often see in the nervous system, whether that's someone's actual, literally tension in the [00:32:00] body, their tension in their breath, even.
Yeah. How they're still holding that and, and, and, you know. Trying to keep themselves safe, safe in those situations. And I always remember in learning from you too, with the somatic work, is that often the benefit is to actually go deeper into the experience of the somatic, um, stay with it. Yeah. Yeah. To like, go into it and then to trying to talk to people about the ways that actually tuning into that experience is going to amplify it.
But it is that arc right. Of, of tuning in, amplifying it, and then trusting that the wave will come back down mm-hmm. As you allow it to be there and really be present with it. Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. We talk about panic attacks. Right? That's, you know, that's right there. Yeah.
Dr. Geoff: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Which is one of the, you know, and, and we try to view it in a way that's kind of metered, that's like bit by bit rather than flooding all at once, right?
Dr. Nicole: Um, yes.
Dr. Geoff: Partly, partly just because we have all these ways of, you know, distracting and, [00:33:00] and so we kinda have all these coping skills and defenses and, and so people will just kind of go to those reflexively and automatically if you flood them and do it too quickly, and so mm-hmm.
So, so unlike the zebra who escaped the lion and can go, you know, into the center of the herd where their body gets signals, they're safe, and then they can start kicking and shaking and releasing that energy that they don't need, they still learn from it, right? Like, they don't forget a lion chase them, but they integrate it, right?
So, so they, they might from that day forward, be more cautious and more alert to lions, but Yep. But they're not carrying the fight or flight energy perpetually
Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.
Dr. Geoff: From that chase. Yeah.
Dr. Nicole: Yeah.
Dr. Geoff: And so the learning is still there, but, uh, but it's that. Chronic hypervigilance and fight or flight energy that causes people problems.
Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think I think of that and relational systemic issues as all being a part of diagnosis. Right. And I know that you talked a little bit earlier about the ways that we're, you know, or society is trying to box and pigeonhole [00:34:00] certain psychedelics into specific diagnoses and that treatment.
Mm-hmm. Oh, Jeff, please. Yeah. Please dismantle the diagnosis for me. Let's, let's talk about it.
Dr. Geoff: Alright. We might need to. And it, I do think that, um, psychedelics are particularly, uh, disruptive of, of, uh, diagnosis again, 'cause it, it'll disrupt these constructs that we create and diagnoses are ultimately constructs we invented rather than facts that we discovered in nature.
Yes.
Dr. Nicole: Within the last a hundred years. And that's an important point.
Dr. Geoff: Yeah. Is that, is that, I, I think the, the standard way of thinking about it is diagnoses are things that we have discovered that exist rather than constructs we've created to explain human experience so that it's not that the human experience isn't real, it is, but uh, but the diagnosis are, are just particular ways within a cultural con, within our cultural context that we've come to label them and, uh, describe them.
But also important that, um, diagnoses are not explanations. They're merely descriptions. So, so much like, [00:35:00] um, but the problem is once you describe something that tends to become, uh, the rule of how things should be experienced. Mm-hmm. So much like grammar, right? Like every, like, uh, humans have always had language.
Um, we only recently have documented what the rule, what the implicit rules of that language are in the form of grammar. Those tend to then become official rules and expectations for how the right way to speak is. And it makes the language a lot, a lot more static as a result. And I think diagnosis that way, we create this language of a, a diagnostic label of like, you know, here are symptoms that tend to co-occur together with people who are sad.
We call that depression, right? But that was done in a particular culture. And if you had done it, if you'd done it from scratch in a different culture, it would've looked very different guarantee it would've looked very different. Um, they're well-documented, uh, examples in cultural anthropology of, of how, uh, when you go try to study a diagnosis in a different culture, you have a lot of trouble finding it 'cause it doesn't exist in the same way
Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.
Dr. Geoff: If it exists at all. Right? So that doesn't mean the range of experiences don't exist, that people get sad in every culture. Right. People [00:36:00] are, um, you know, uh, have a range of, uh, emotional perception and empathy it, you know, across any culture. But, um, but to consolidate those symptoms into a diagnostic label is much more a social and political decision than it is a scientific or natural reality.
Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I really appreciate the distinction of the human suffering is real.
Dr. Geoff: Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. So there was a, um, a book by, I think Thomas says, the Myth of Mental Illness, which was, uh. Decades old book. Um, I wanna say se maybe the 1970s or so, that was much more of like a libertarian take of like personal responsibility.
And so that was kind of denying a lot of mental illness. Mm. And so I'm not taking that approach. Like that's, that's not the approach. Yeah. Uh, many other people have made the point that, you know, human suffering is, uh, is, is universal, but culturally, and this comes out of cultural anthropology, every, every culture has like [00:37:00] what you could call a symptom pool.
Meaning they have ways of suffering that they can understand and that are therefore legitimized by that culture. And in this culture, it was on full display with the last edition of the DSM, which is our mental health diagnostic manual, which is that they posted the dry version online for a couple of years, uh, for public comment.
Mm. So, so I think it was like for two years really, it was up. So professionals could comment, but so could anybody, anybody could comment.
Dr. Nicole: Huh?
Dr. Geoff: Your comments could be citing research. Your comments could be personal opinion, your comments could be advocacy. And so all sorts of changes were made to that diagnostic system based on people basically negotiating what they agreed to suffering looks like and doesn't look like.
And so in every culture that happens, it usually doesn't happen in such a formal way. Is is, is what the, as it did with the dsm,
Dr. Nicole: right?
Dr. Geoff: But that's always, you know, usually over, you know. Decades or hundreds of years, thousands of years. That's a cultural negotiation of, you know, uh, what does a child with a stomach ache mean?
It means a different thing in, in different cultures.
Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. In
Dr. Geoff: [00:38:00] China, it must might mean as much as a kid in the United States saying they're sad and get the same attention. So those symptoms communic or, or ways of communicating about your suffering. Right. And so when we box it in with a diagnosis and say, this diagnosis has these nine symptoms.
Well, if, if your particular, uh, version of that has a few symptoms that, that, that, um. Aren't one of those nine symptoms. The, the most common thing to do is, is, is ignore them. Uh, so you don't, you don't tend to those, you, you, 'cause those are the ones that will get you labeled as, as crazy, kinda like dismissed, right?
Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Geoff: Um, or people will just say, you know, either those aren't real or I don't know what to do about them, right? So you won't get help, you won't get help on those things that the culture doesn't recognize much.
Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Geoff: And so that's a huge limitation of like, formalizing diagnosis rather than taking a broader view that, uh, that if somebody tells me that they're struggling with something or suffering from something, that that is automatically legitimate, we don't, like, we can figure out how they want to label that and describe it and what the causes are.[00:39:00]
But I, I really think diagnoses give us a, you know, they, they might give us a way of a language for talking about things and make us temporarily feel understood. But if it doesn't result in relief, you probably don't feel ultimately in the long run, you're not gonna be, uh, felt, understood or helped.
And if you don't clearly fit that category of diagnosis, uh, probably the, the systems and the helping professionals aren't gonna be able to help you a whole lot, and you're gonna bounce around and struggle to find Right.
Another person who can help. And, but that all stems and starts from, I think, these rigid diagnostic categories. Yeah. Uh, there's, there's a hundred other critiques too, but, um, sure. But, but, but aside from that, I would say the other big critique for me is that, um, diagnoses by their nature are internal and individualistic.
Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yep.
Dr. Geoff: So if I give you a diagnosis, I'm saying that you have this problem. So it's problem, it's a problem focused narrative. It's a thin, uh, narrative. Just a very simple ways that we talk about it. So it loses the complexity and the context of your life, uh, 'cause it's inside of you. It doesn't look at the rest of your context of your [00:40:00] life and your relationships and the culture and, and, and your, and kinda the intersections with all that.
Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Geoff: And therefore, it's kind of depoliticize it, right? So if I'm, so, if you're suffering from what we'd call depression diagnostically, because you're seeing all these apocalyptic, uh, scenarios in the, in the world, uh, escalating, you know, nationalism and isolationism and, and, and things that would point towards risks of, you know, wider wars or, uh, climate catastrophe or the impact of, you know, outta control technologies like AI being really disruptive to economies that, uh.
Where does that fit with a depression of diagnosis, which is, which boils down to, um, you're stuck in a pattern of, you know, sadness and hopelessness about it and, you know, maybe self-criticism or whatever, whatever your particular symptoms are.
Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Geoff: And it kinda ignores all the context that might be contributing to that and says, this is a, a thing inside of you and therefore maybe we give you a medication to change your neurotransmitters so you don't feel that way about things.
Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Geoff: [00:41:00] And that's the, and that's kind of the end of the thinking about it, right? Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Nicole: And who benefits from that? Right. Good question. Who benefits from that And
Dr. Geoff: yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Nicole: I appreciate Exactly. Yeah. I appreciate when I was at least, you know, I didn't get this level of critical examination of diagnostic.
I didn't either. Yeah. So I was so happy to train with you and Lasana to like start to be learning from this sort of critical perspective. I do remember in my trauma class, they had shown me some sort of research study about, um, these, uh, case vignettes where it was two children and the difference between the two, where that it was a white child and a black child and conceptualizing from diagnosis, and there was shown to be a bias of conceptualizing despite the same, you know, sort of vignette and story of experiences.
The white child was often diagnosed with PTSD and then the um mm-hmm. Child, the black child was often diagnosed with, uh, it's what? Disruptive disorder, what is the.
Dr. Geoff: Uh, yeah. Uh, basically conduct disorder lately. Conduct [00:42:00] disorder.
Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Geoff, I'm proud that I don't know all of these. I'm gonna say I'm proud to have gotten this far and be like, I don't know all of these damn terms in the book.
Um, but Right. That's a huge, it was mind boggling for me to even, or disruptive
Dr. Geoff: mood dysregulation disorder, which was a new one. So, so we invent these, uh, new diagnoses too.
Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so then the bias of the clinician and the way that, that then creates these, these worlds and these paradigms where I've definitely talked about the, um.
The inner rate of reliability, right. The consistency mm-hmm. Of physicians to accurately diagnose the same person and to learn that the inner rate of reliability for some of our major diagnoses, generalized anxiety disorder, major depression, right. To learn that that was as likely as chance was pretty much the most mindboggling experience as someone in this field.
And so I know I've talked to you a lot about that, of how then do we look at data where it's all about the effectiveness of this treatment for depression, right? If the actual category itself is already so, uh, you know, [00:43:00] unclear, what sort of data are we actually getting here? And, and to remember, you know, what you had said at the beginning is that the suffering is real.
The suffering is very real. And I think that, you know, it's, it's. It's hard to see the ways that when you do get that diagnosis, of course the individual, so then the narrative of there's something wrong with me, not there's something wrong with the systems. Uh, but also the ways that that narrative then perpetuates further.
Mm-hmm. Living into that I identity often I see a lot of that of like, oh, hi, my name's this and I have that right. And this is who I am. And so the ways that that actually perpetuates it. Further and, and, and oof especially, you know, in the world of sex and relationships. Oh, he's a narcissist. Oh. Mm-hmm.
This, like, all of these different labels that are often thrown out to, I guess, again, thin narratives. Mm-hmm. Thin, thin narratives that don't see the whole complexity of the ecosystem that that person was in. Or even the ways that that sort of strategy of how they're showing up in [00:44:00] relationships was adaptive mm-hmm.
At the time. And that's what we're actually seeing is that that person was so hurt in the past that this is why they're showing up this way. Yeah. But we slap something like, oh, they're a narcissist. They're horrible. It's innate in them, and we should shun them from the society. Right. I think this is also where the conversation of anarchy could start to come into of community and what all of this means.
Mm-hmm. Uh, but yeah, it's quite the mess. And I do look at it as like a, a, a dragon to be slain as people in the field that really need to be critical to the ways this impacts all of us.
Dr. Geoff: Yeah. And, and that's, and and you mentioned something there that, right, that these diagnoses can become part of our identity pretty naturally.
And so I think for that reason there, you know, there's nothing that feels more personal than identity. And so when you, uh, start critiquing diagnosis, people, uh, I think understandably, you know, get protective about that and get defensive about that because, uh, it feels like you're attacking part of their identity or the, or, or you're attacking the legitimacy of their suffering, right?
And so I think it's important to [00:45:00] say that, um, neither of those is the case. If anything, my goal, you use some, we're using some, some language that comes from narrative. The there, which I strongly wanna boost, narrative therapies is awesome. That's the most liberatory of all therapies. I think it's, it's the least, uh, colonial and the least oppressive of all therapies.
But, uh, maybe there's a few others you'd put up there with it. But it's, yeah, for me, it's, it's, uh, the best in that way. So, but what they, what they say is that, that, uh, we want to, um, help thicken people's narratives about the lives, their lives and themselves. So it's about enriching identity and, uh, and so that, so it's okay if somebody identifies as.
Autistic, if somebody identifies as, as depression, that even beyond, you know, that, that, that label can provide some meaning and, and like a sense of understanding and maybe some hope that they can get help or something, right? So that's important. But along with that, we want to kind of move away from what's a very, that's, that's a very thin narrative that kind of like, you know, what is depression?
What, what is autism? It's a just a handful of, you know, criteria that don't come anywhere remotely close to explaining somebody's. Life [00:46:00] experience and who they are, right? Like, if anything, it's just like a, a piece of how they experience the world and how they, how they feel in the world. And maybe very important one, it might capture some very important aspects of that, and that's why it's, you know, very appealing to identify with that diagnosis.
But so, so, so it's not so much about like, uh. They totally respect somebody's right to identify with those labels or any other label, you know, whether it comes from the DSM or not. But I think the question still is like, like how do we thicken your narrative? How do we enrich your own understanding of the complexity of, of, uh, who you are and what your life experiences are?
So, and uh, and in narrative therapy, they talk about externalizing rather than internalizing these, these labels. So they, they still have people kind of choose how they want to understand the problem that they're coming in with, but they're also very clear that they wanna make sure that the person understands they're not the problem.
That the problem is the problem, right? So if, if I'm anxious and social situations, that's the problem. But if I, if I see myself as socially anxious, again, that's one of those thin narratives that's gonna probably define and restrict my life. In ways that I [00:47:00] don't appreciate more than I want to. It's like I'm somebody who used to have pretty intense social anxiety and I, I still have bits of that, but, um, but also I, I think fortunately, I, I, I could have had some things that supported me not identifying with it like that, that was, that that was, uh, an experience I was having, but it didn't mean I had to, you know, avoid certain areas of life.
And so I, I, I also would call myself, you know, kind of slightly more extroverted than introverted. I think I became that way, um, over time.
Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Geoff: I also, you know, have been a professor and in presenting conferences and things and, uh, and I'm uncomfortable every time I do it. So it's like, so I think we have the thin narrative.
We think like, you know, it's easy to go, like these very kind of simple if then type of scenarios. Like, because I'm socially anxious, I could not be a teacher, for example. Right?
Dr. Nicole: Yep.
Dr. Geoff: Rather than, you know, uh, elaborating that narrative, I'm socially anxious, uh, but I can, uh, I can warm up if I get past that initial discomfort, or I can be anxious the entire time and still do a good job.
Or, you know, kinda like the, uh, or, [00:48:00] um, I also have a lot of, uh, ideas that I'm good at, kind of like seeing multiple angles to things. So these things that had nothing to do with, with that, that kind of, uh, give me value beyond whatever that that problem is, right?
Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Geoff: But I think importantly, you know, two things there, not internalizing it, seeing it is, is a, a contextual problem that I'm in relationship to, that I can relate to in different ways.
Yeah. And, and to have a thicker understanding and narrative of, of who I am and all the things I'm. Capable of or mm-hmm. Or, or things that are, uh, challenges for me or all of that. Yeah.
Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And I really appreciate this conversation 'cause it's so deep within our cultural consciousness, you know, that these labels are thrown around so often.
I think two examples recently in my life where, uh, someone talking about how they were on TikTok and it's so hard to be on TikTok without getting sucked into hours of, on the, being on the platform. Mm-hmm. And someone came back and said, oh, do you have a [00:49:00] DHD? Mm-hmm. And I was like, oh no. Like, this is literally created to suck you in.
Mm-hmm. This is not a diag, you know, so even that question coming from someone in the community or I was talking about how I've been, um, on my website writing, you know, um. Guidebooks for how to work with grounding and jealousy and non monogamy. And I had spent like a full six hours just writing and in the flow and thriving, and someone looked back at me, oh, do you have A-D-H-D-I have passion.
Okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But it's so within the cultural consciousness that that's what you're getting constantly where these different, you know, frames to, again, thin frames and also a problematic
Dr. Geoff: very and very individualistic and Right. What's your, what's your deal kind of thing. Right? Right. But nothing about us.
Right. But in fact, nothing about us is without a context. Right. Like, even if, um, even if that narcissistic label fits somebody reasonably well, like, are we curious enough to understand why? And are we curious enough [00:50:00] to understand like how they also might be like a dedicated parent or a, or a good employee or, you know, whatever else mm-hmm.
That would seem to contradict the narcissism. Like in what context? They're probably not. We're, we're not the same at every context. Like we change based on, uh, the conditions. Changing the different context that we're in, right? Mm-hmm. I think anybody can reflect on that and know that you're not exactly the same with your best friend as you're with your parents as you are in a classroom, as you are in a workplace, uh, as you're in a bus, right?
Mm-hmm. The context set and setting impacts all areas of our, of our, of our being,
Dr. Nicole: and, right, right. And of course there's a deep anarchist, you know, conversation to be had about struggling to pay attention to spreadsheets for hours, right? Mm-hmm. And then to say, oh, you have a DH adhd. Here's more, actually, here's drugs.
Yeah. To make it through.
Dr. Geoff: Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Nicole: The, oh, you know, like, oh, whoa.
Dr. Geoff: Yeah. When in fact maybe you, you just want to get through graduate school and you, and if, uh, if [00:51:00] all things were equal and if there were no, uh, power structures in place, you probably wouldn't spend six hours looking at this spreadsheet. Yes,
Dr. Nicole: absolutely.
Absolutely.
Dr. Geoff: Unless you had a, you know, real passion for what was in that spreadsheet. Right. So like
Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and for me, I think this is all a part of relationship anarchy. I know when we had talked to you, it said you weren't as familiar with the concept, but for me, I see all of this being related because mm-hmm.
You know, relationship anarchy, from my understanding of it, isn't necessarily about your sexual romantic partnerships. If anything, it's actually about trying to take off the priority that we've placed in our. Culture so deeply on those types of relationships and to see more of the community and the deeper ways mm-hmm.
That we are all interconnected. Mm-hmm. And so in, in that examination of our interconnectedness, part of that is, um, one of the biggest pieces of that is how power structures are impacting us in our relationships. Mm-hmm. And the field of psychology. All of these pieces are so [00:52:00] deeply impacting all of us.
And so I feel like mm-hmm. This is actually a crucial piece of the conversation of relationship anarchy is how it, how are the narratives mm-hmm. Of the white western colonizer field of psychology and its recent development within the last a hundred of years. Right. Like, how is that impacting all of us?
Mm-hmm. And I think this conversation is hitting on some of the different ways that that is the water that we swim in.
Dr. Geoff: Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yeah. And, and I think, right. And, and if it's the water we swim in. Right. The only, the only way you, you really can get it. Comprehensive view of that water is like, sometimes you gotta get out of the water.
Dr. Nicole: Like Yeah. Like does it, does
Dr. Geoff: the fish know what water is? No. Probably It does. Once it gets out the water, then it knows what water is. Yeah. And then it does.
Dr. Nicole: Yeah.
Dr. Geoff: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, so there's this idea, it, it, um. Anarchism, which I'm sure you're familiar with, and you're certainly practicing, which is, uh, prefigurative politics.
Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Geoff: So the idea that, that we can create an [00:53:00] experiment with different forms of, you know, organizations, relationships, things like that, that, uh, reflect the kinda society that we are hoping to build. And, um, and you may find out some of those things don't work, but you don't know until you, you try. Right.
But the idea is that if we don't kind of, um, uh, start living now the values in, in, in the direction of the future that we want, um, we won't get there. Right. Because it's not a mm-hmm. It's not just a thought experiment of like, I can, I can dream up a utopian society. I guess you'd, you'd need some dictator to implement it if you, if you came up with that on your own, right?
Yeah. And so the idea of per figurative politics kind of takes out that power element and says. We want people experimenting with living in different ways so that we can see how that works and so that people can find what works for them. Mm-hmm. And we're not all gonna be the same that, uh, but, but if we can kind of discover what the range of possibilities are, then people, then if we kind of take away the power structures, like borders and things that would prevent people from being able to freely move between those different societies, then maybe we'd all, uh, you know, have a little bit easier time [00:54:00] finding our place in the world.
Dr. Nicole: Yeah. The power of, of seeing a different possibility. Mm-hmm. A different dream imagination and trying to do our best to both work within the systems and against them at the same time. And I was reminded of when I had first started training at Sauna, I remember coming to the table and saying, someone had asked me if I'm an anarchist, but I don't even know.
And you had looked at and said, you have this whole podcast on it, Nicole. And I was like, yeah, but I dunno enough yet. You know? And I think it's been definitely a process over the years of continuing to study and learn from this, um, specific, you know, framework to, to dreaming. And so it's definitely mm-hmm something that I've continued to learn about and what it means to actually, uh, live into the value systems of anarchy.
Dr. Geoff: Yeah. And we probably all have, anybody who is interested in that system has their entry point. Right. And so for you, maybe it was more of relationships For me it was cross-cultural research. Mm-hmm. So just, you know, there's that anarchist saying that I think gets attributed to David Grabber, uh, [00:55:00] another world is possible.
And so, yeah, for me, studying other cultures made me realize like, oh man, there's almost nothing about how we do things. How we see ourselves, uh, how we experience the world that is universal, that we
Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.
Dr. Geoff: That culture could kind of program that in any, um, direction. And, and, uh, that's not a problem. It's a problem when the cultures become rigid and monocultural and movement, you know, is difficult for all these bureaucratic and political reasons.
Like, you know, kind of things that get in the way of you, you know, I don't know, experimenting and building a new type of school. 'cause you have ideas about how, how kids might learn better. Mm-hmm. You're kind of restricted legally in all these ways. Right? Or border is prevent us from moving, uh, very easily.
So less so for Americans who are very privileged than. You know, people in developing countries who are unlikely to be able to travel much.
Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Geoff: Um, not just for financially because they won't get a, a visa to wealthier countries. Yeah. Yeah. So, so there's all these barriers that, so, so culture's not the.
Problem. It's when culture is, is too homogenous and, uh, and it's too [00:56:00] difficult to move and there's too many, uh, things that you're required to participate in that kind of trap you, right? Like we all gotta mm-hmm. We all, we all gotta pay taxes, uh, that sort of thing that, uh, we all, you know, need to meet our basic needs.
Mm-hmm. There are things like, you know, zoning and building codes that define where you can grow your own food and whether you can forage and what, you know, whether you can build your own house and what the rules are that, that kinda make everything very complex and, uh, expensive and restrictive and that kind of restrict the possibilities of,
Dr. Nicole: you know,
Dr. Geoff: but, but it, yeah, that's one of the things I appreciate from anarchism is the idea that, uh, humans made everything and, and could just as easily make them differently.
That's also David paraphrase, but,
Dr. Nicole: uh. Yeah.
Dr. Geoff: So that to me is really inspiring and that was kind of my end to, to anarchism. Sure. So, but I, but I share that with you. I'm like, then the, the areas that I hadn't thought about as much, I'm trying to piece together and understand.
Dr. Nicole: Sure, absolutely. Yeah. Another world is possible that creativity, that flexing of that muscle.
And yeah, [00:57:00] definitely for me, you know. Doing the work that I did, volunteering as a sexual assault counselor, and then just deep diving into sex positivity. I think that's where you're right. Mm-hmm. Like my touchpoint was relationships and sexuality of another world is possible. And then I think, you know, like you're saying in anarchy not to become then a monolith of, of one way of being, which I know that we've, you know, in my own supervision process, a lot of that identity formation of the difficulties of when you have fought so hard, you know, like psychedelics.
Mm-hmm. Like kink in these ways where you fought so hard to be seen and then you want everybody to be here versus understanding the importance of diversity. Right. And so I often see that a lot. You know, even in, um, the relationship anarchy research that I've continued to do on my podcast, I've gotten some people who have responded say, I'm anti monogamy, I'm anti this, I'm anti all this.
Mm-hmm. And I'm like, whoa. Do you understand how you're reinforcing the power structures that we are trying to get out of? I understand your examination of the power and the consciousness and creating more. Face, [00:58:00] but we have to be so careful in these ways of still understanding and respecting the diversity of experience and the different lives that people are gonna create.
Dr. Geoff: Yeah. Yeah. And the, and the, and I understand, you know, much like the fish out of water, right? Like the anti, the the anti, the anti anti water. Yeah. Yeah. The anti can be an important phase. Yeah. In, in breaking free of an old construct, right? So like if you're, if you're really getting into polyamory, I think it makes sense to go through a period of being anti monogamy otherwise, uh, and you may not always be right too, like, right.
I think it's always worth remembering that, that, uh, things are contextual and so likely when you first start exploring that you don't get much support and you get a lot of pushback from, from people in your life and, and from the culture in general. And so you might have to kind of go anti in the same way that like, you know, if we look at like your racial identity development models, for example, right?
Like there's an important phase of like, you know, you go from like. Probably being, um, you know, and those are centered, or we'll say around people of color. There are white, uh, racial identity models too. But I'm thinking about the people of color ones. It kind of goes [00:59:00] from like, you know, at some point you're too young to really perceive racism or know that it exists and, and might be oblivious to it.
And then at some point you have a critical experience that highlights it for you that it's, you know, obvious enough that it's not just your deficit, but that there's mm-hmm. Uh, this prejudice in the world. And, and so, and then from there, like the next natural stage to go into is kind of like, um, immersion in your own group and kind of anti the, the majority group.
Yeah. And so, and so I view it as like a, you know, and then eventually people might, you know, not need to be so immersed in it once they've gotten solid in Yeah. Their understanding of themselves and their experience. So,
Dr. Nicole: yep.
Dr. Geoff: But it's not a linear thing either. Right. So then if you, if you get, you had to face some discrimination, you might kind of need to go back and immerse yourself in, in the, in your group for kinda safety and protecting your own sense of self.
And that's, that's not a failure or a retreat. It's just kind of a natural reaction to the context.
Dr. Nicole: Of course. Yeah.
Dr. Geoff: But it's, I think that way with everything, it's like, you know, I, I think anytime you're experimenting with something new, you might need to be very anti the, the old thing.
Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. [01:00:00] Yeah. I can definitely see myself in that journey of having to have the claw out to protect yourself because mm-hmm.
Society is so said otherwise. And I think that, um, it's been a really, you know, speaking about community and healing, just training with you and everybody at Sauna Healing Collective had been such like a breath of fresh air to be able to be all that I am and not have to be afraid, um, to be judged or that somehow, you know, the ways that I was living my life were wrong, but rather to see them as something that could specifically have a, a cultural understanding.
Right. Mm. To be something that could be helpful. And, you know, as I've closed out my training with you guys, it's been so. Radical to have almost half of my caseload practicing polyamory and NoMy. I can't even describe to you what sort of identity formation that has given to me from That's awesome, man.
Coming in and feeling like, oh, no one does this. I feel like I'm so bad and I'm doing something so radical to having this full caseload and supporting people. It's, it's just made it so much more real and tangible, like mm-hmm. Some of the [01:01:00] first books I had found on it made it feel more real and not just this dream.
And so I think that, again, part of this comes back to the healing of, of community, really.
Dr. Geoff: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm very happy, uh, we were able to
Dr. Nicole: Yeah.
Dr. Geoff: Support that to as well, so,
Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dr. Geoff: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And, you know, that's what we're trying to do from top to bottom. That's, you know, we want each person who works there to, to be able to pursue the things that are passionate.
Yeah. And, you know, um, we're still existing within these structures of insurance of course. And, and state and reimbursement and all that shit. And, you know, money for that matter. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Nicole: Um.
Dr. Geoff: So, so there's some things you can get free of and some things you can't. But if we can, you know, as much as we can do that prefigurative politics thing where we kind of live as if, uh, or, or live toward the world that we're wanting.
Yeah. Um, that's important. So, uh mm-hmm. We, we try to do that, you know, for the clients to give, to really respect their autonomy pretty radically and get them to reflect on the cultural and contextual things that influence their [01:02:00] lives, not just their internal experience. And yeah. And I think psychedelics, uh, help with that a lot.
'cause they kind of, um, break up these structures and, and, uh, temporarily anyway, they disrupt these structures and, and help us see things in a different way and help us notice where things are out of balance. And it's like, oh, actually, uh, I'm not feeling great about this, uh, norm in society. I'm not feeling great about my work.
And you, you weren't, you already weren't, but it makes you more aware of it.
Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Dr. Geoff: Brings attention to it. Yeah.
Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Geoff: From there we make decisions. So like, uh, you know, from there, even if somebody decides to stay in that job, at least there's, uh, more of a sense of. You know, kinda weighing your options and deciding to do it versus, uh, just kind of being totally stuck there.
Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes, definitely. And I'm thinking about the ways too, in which creating this world, the other world, and I know this is way too big of a question, but I'm gonna ask it anyways. [01:03:00] If you were to impart any wisdom, um, perspective to the listeners of how you can do that in your day-to-day life and trusting in the ripples of the ways that we show up in our relationships in our community, is there anything that you would impart with them of how we could take at least a, a little step towards that world?
It's, I know that's a big question, so it's too big. Mm-hmm. But I'm, I'm throwing it out there anyways.
Dr. Geoff: Yeah, I think there's a million little steps and, and so. We are both created by, and we are recreators of the world, right? And so if we think of that every day and the things that we do that. We, we do, we do things that kind of support the status quo and reinforce this world.
And, and a lot of those things you, you, you kind of have to do other, you know, 'cause there's, uh, ultimately the, the end point of like why we stay in line is the threat of state violence is the end point of everything. And, and, uh, you know, even minor things, right? So it's like, uh, try driving around with no license plates on your car and see, see what happens if you don't comply and put a [01:04:00] race license.
Eventually you end up in, in jail, right? So eventually it's uh, it's the violence of the state that that gets imposed on you even for these little mundane, bureaucratic things.
Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Geoff: But I do think in many other ways, even if there are things that we. Can't so easily rebel against like license plates, right?
That, uh, that there are, you know, a thousand possible little acts of rebellion where you can kind of, um, divergence some way big or small from the status quo. And I think those are the things that over time make culture, we don't make culture in, in one big shot, or I mentioned like utopias, right? Like we can dream up a utopia.
If you had the power to at accurate utopia, I hope you wouldn't do it because that would be a authoritarianism and right, it wouldn't, wouldn't work for a lot of people. So culture needs to emerge over time through kind of our collective decisions and actions and, and so you contribute to that and in little ways every single day that you do things a little bit different.
So whether you ask, you know, somebody. A more personal question that is appropriate for your corporate office [01:05:00] space, for the sake of connecting with them. Mm. That's a, that's a, a breaching of that, uh, whether you, um, use all your vacation days and maybe use them to, to kind of break from your normal life pattern, whatever that looks like.
That's kind of a capitalistic example of it. But, uh, sure. But that doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be. I mean, uh, consuming a bunch during that vacation, um, whether you, uh, you know, plant a garden or get together with your neighbors and plant a community garden or, you know, kinda like, you know, I think that's partly important.
One of the ways that you network and connect with other people in new ways where that's been one of the Strat one of the primary strategies I think of keeping people line is, is to kind of pit us against each other in competition and, and Mm.
Dr. Nicole: Yeah.
Dr. Geoff: And separate us and, and kind of destabilize, uh, communities because, uh, what happens when people are kind of stable in a place together, they start forming, uh, culture, they start building things and they start doing those things that are kind of sometimes in conflict with the state.
Uh, sometimes, uh, supplant and replace with the state thinks it should have domain over, like mm-hmm. You know, taking care of immigrants for [01:06:00] example, or
Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.
Dr. Geoff: Um, new immigrants. Um, and so. Diverging some from some things, and particularly diverging from things in a way that, that allows you to kind of engage in some mutual aid with other people.
I think, I think those are the, the most subversive, the ways we engage in mutual aid together. Yeah. The way that we, uh, kind of build things, uh, for ourselves that meet our needs, that contributes towards our freedom, that also helps us build the skillset we would actually need to Right. Autonomously, which is a very de-skilled right country.
Um, um, which I think is strategic, that the wealthiest countries are the most de-skilled. We've kinda moved labor largely out of them, that you actually become more dependent on, on, on the state. Uh,
Dr. Nicole: yeah.
Dr. Geoff: Um, and less likely to overthrow it. So, so, so I think, uh, developing new skills. So yeah. I mentioned gardening, but also Yeah.
You know, do you know how to repair or make clothing? Do you know how to Right. Repair or, uh, vehicle or bike or mm-hmm. Kinda other, other things that we, important tools.
Dr. Nicole: Yeah.
Dr. Geoff: Have tools.
Dr. Nicole: Yep, yep. I think one that was coming to mind too for me is the power of [01:07:00] listening. Right? Not, oh, I'm just listening to someone, no.
Mm-hmm. The power of actually being present. Mm-hmm. Listening and witnessing someone in that and in our relationships and, and just how much that can change the world if we were actually listening to one another. Not always trying to have the, the next part of the conversation, figure it out. Right. But to actually just, I hear you and I see you.
I'd be curious what sort of world, even that level of Yeah. A small act could ripple out to our collective consciousness and connection.
Dr. Geoff: Yeah. I think especially when we listen within a group and you start to, to kind of hear, oh, maybe, uh, me and a bunch of other people are having similar concerns and problems, and it's not just my personal
Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.
Dr. Geoff: Um, deficit, but it's the unrealistic demands, uh, and stressors that the society as it's currently organized is putting on all of us.
Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Consciousness raising. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Geoff: Yeah.
Dr. Nicole: Well, Geoff, as we come towards the end of our time today, I'm gonna take a deep breath with you again[01:08:00]
and I wanna check in to see, before we go towards a closing question, are there any last words that you would want to impart with the listeners? Otherwise I can guide us towards our closing question.
Dr. Geoff: Yeah. To, to sum it up in other world as possible.
Dr. Nicole: Yeah.
Dr. Geoff: Yeah. And, uh, and, and thank God none of us has the power or, or the responsibility to, to do that on our own, so, yeah.
Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah. Beautiful. Well, Geoff, the last question that I ask everyone on the podcast is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?
Dr. Geoff: Hmm. I wish people knew. That almost everything is normal. I think that's been one of the, one of, one of the, uh, one, one of the best gifts of being a therapist.
Yeah. And having access to people's mind. People's minds is that, uh, any wild, uh, thought or idea or impulse I've ever had, a lot of people have had the, the [01:09:00] same thing. And so mm-hmm. We take the experience we have in the world, even our identity way too personally, when they're, they're, they're much more impersonal than we think they are.
Uh
Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.
Dr. Geoff: Um, so I wish people knew it was, uh, normal to be. Different and to not be like other people, it would be, uh, ab abnormal to be average in every way.
Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. I've always joked on the podcast that I know I have a true anarchist when they absolutely, uh, say uh, no to this question and say that all things are normal, you know, just mm-hmm.
Disrupt and challenge the question. I'm like, that's the anarchist check they have. Yeah. They have passed. If there was a test, one of
Dr. Geoff: my all time favorite quotes, uh, Alfred Adler said, the only normal people are the ones you don't know very well.
Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly. Well, Geoff, it's been such a joy to have you on the podcast.
It's been such a joy to have you in my community and to be able to share this space with you and all the listeners today. So I really appreciate you coming onto the show.
Dr. Geoff: Alright, thank you. Mm-hmm. It was fun.
Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And before you go to, I do wanna invite you [01:10:00] to, uh, plug away. Where can listeners who are interested in your research interested in Sana Healing Collective, where can they find you and all your work?
Dr. Geoff: If you find, wanna find my research easy enough just to type my, um, my rare last name into Google Scholar and, and you'll find all anything I've written, um
Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.
Dr. Geoff: Uh, academically. Uh, and then, um, Sana healing collective.org. SANA, healing collective.org is, uh, website where we also tend to link to some of that stuff and mm-hmm.
Um, even if you're not local to Chicago or the Chicago region, um, sometimes do online trainings and events or, or integration groups or things like that. Uh, always with a sliding scale, uh, based on need as well. So, uh, yeah. Yeah, check us out and see what's out there.
Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And I'll have all of that link below for the listeners to click away and find all of your content.
And so, yeah, thank you for joining me and thank you for, uh, building Community with me here. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.
If you enjoy today's [01:11:00] episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast. And head on over to Modern Anarchy podcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I wanna thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.
Comments