233. Relationship Anarchist: Aaron
- Nicole Thompson
- Sep 28
- 56 min read
[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole.
On today's episode, we have Aaron join us for another relationship anarchy research conversation. Together we talk about the finitude of our humanness, nerding out on the concept of hierarchy. And stepping into the abundance of expansive relating. Hello, dear listener and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday.
My name is Dr. Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing that psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, author of the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and founder of the Pleasure Practice supporting Individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships. Dear listener. Ah, you know, these are my favorite episodes on the podcast.
I love, love, love getting to talk about relationship anarchy. I love getting to talk to one of you dear listeners who trusts me to come onto the show and who is ready to share their story with the modern Anarchy community. It truly is an honor and. Every time that I step into one of these recordings, every time I edit one of these recordings, I learn so much.
My relationship anarchy practice is changed by every single one of you. And truly, it is such a joy to be continuing my dissertation research, and it's such a joy to see people continuing to download the Relationship Anarchy dissertation. Dear listener, if you're new here. Hey, I published the first research study on relationship anarchy, and it's available on my website for free to download, and it's such a joy to be creating these free resources together as a movement, as a community.
And I'm delighted that you are here with me tuning in and going for the ride together.
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And the first question that I like to ask each guest is, how would you introduce yourself to the listener?
[00:04:54] Aaron: Uh, interesting. I think I would introduce myself as, uh, a relative newbie and a, um, but somebody with a very open mind, uh, and a very, uh, very open soul and, uh, and somebody who, um, who cares very deeply about, uh, you know, effective practice.
Right? I have a lot of experience like doing development, especially working with, uh, you know, software and, and software engineering. And, and because of that. I kinda have to like both balance mastery and like getting really good at something, but also that empathy aspect. You know, like I really have to spend a lot of time, especially 'cause my job is, um, with front end mm uh, development, I have to spend a lot of time empathizing with both customers, but also connecting people together, trying to, um, you know, kind of trying to connect all the different pieces together.
And so, um, I put a lot of emphasis and, and care into, um, the types of interactions that I have.
[00:06:05] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Well, you're in the right space today. Well, so I'll open us up then with the first question, which is, what is relationship anarchy?
[00:06:17] Aaron: Relationship anarchy to me is a practice of, um, and, and really in a lot of ways, kind of an avoidance of hierarchical structures with partners that you, uh, you want in your orbit.
Mm-hmm. Uh, and I think especially when I, um, decided to embrace poly, there's lots of different types of poly that, that you can, you know, uh, embrace. Yes. Or, or at least as a, as a label. Mm-hmm. You know, there's, uh, kitchen table poly, there's ones that have, you know, a primary and a secondary. There's, uh, ones that are much more like ENM, uh, style, where it's just acceptable that maybe you have this like primary partner, but it's acceptable to, you know, um, to be ethically non, especially in the last.
A couple of years, you know, in terms of politics and that sort of thing. When I got into Poly, I was really thinking about like, well, my, my own politics are a certain way. How can I apply that? You know, that thinking to, you know, the way that my lifestyle is, you know, like how, you know, how I wanna have relationships with other people.
Mm-hmm. And, and really how I wanna break down the kind of, the expectations that I think a lot of people, uh, get into a relationship with and are just sort of pre-built into society. Mm-hmm. I don't think that I've ever had like a, a very high respect for like, tradition or
[00:07:48] Dr. Nicole: Sure.
[00:07:49] Aaron: Or, you know, the, um, you know, the Americanized culture and Yeah.
And certainly it's not like I'm a, a Puritan or anything like that. Right. So I hear you. Uh, you know, but I think my, um, and so for that reason, I, I really. Looked very carefully at all the different, um, sort of flavors of poly. And I went with relationship anarchy because it, it followed that pattern to me.
Mm. It was a breakdown of the hierarchy that, you know, I think is a part of our lives every single day. You know, whether it's at work or even like within friend groups or anything like that, there doesn't need to be a social hierarchy. At least that's like what I believe. Mm-hmm. And you can make things work without having to be like, well, this is the person I'm gonna.
You know, that, that I defer to and spend my life with for this, for all these different things, you know, and just in a lot of ways it just, it seemed to make more sense the more I read about it.
[00:08:52] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you for sharing. What a great point to start diving off into all these different concepts.
I'm like, oof. My nerdy side. It's activating, let's go. Yeah. Right. Uh, yes. Um, so yeah, a lot of what was coming to mind for me was the beauty of relationship anarchy is something that encompasses all relationship practices, like monogamy, polyamory, all of it fitting under the umbrella. When we have this.
Embrace of community and the fact that all of our relationships are important, right? Um, so when we have that, I feel like it's so beautiful to see this being applied to all different relationship structures. We should all know that all the people in our lives are valuable. All the people around us are what we need to have a meaningful life.
Often even in monogamy or polyamory, if you have two partners, three partners, people can fall into these holes of romanticism. Where I, I talk about it as like a black hole. It's like, this is my person, or these are my two people and this is all I need. And then we forget like, wow, there's a whole network of people that we all need to thrive and have.
Wellbeing, like minimum, it doesn't matter who, how many people you're having sex with, right? So like I love that, like, that embraces all different types of relationships. And I think it's important to get into the, the definition of hierarchy because within our community, there's so many debates about hierarchy.
My, my dissertation title, um, I was like removing the hierarchy, rewriting the hierarchy, removing it, rewriting, oh my gosh. I went back and forth on that title for so long and was trying to understand yeah. How we define this term. And so when I think about hierarchy, I think about stratification, I think about ranking systems, and I think about power.
[00:10:42] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:42] Dr. Nicole: And so I guess ultimately I went with the title of rewriting hierarchy. So I'll, I'll get nerdy with you on why and, and we can get into it. Um, because there's 8 billion people on this planet. There's gonna be a stratification and a level of rank of who is the most close to me in intimacy that I could even know their name when we're talking about 8 billion people, right?
Yeah. Now, does that mean they have power over dynamics? No. I really don't like veto powers. I really don't like to say this is a more important person than in this other human being. We're all human beings. Yeah, we're all important. And then now this additional thought though of under these systems, our time and energy is power.
Damn. Yeah. Okay, so now these people that I am sharing my time and energy with, that is a sharing of. Power. So then that's where I won't went with rewriting the hierarchy. That's interesting point. Yeah. Of like, how do I do that? But like I, I Yeah, go ahead. Nerd out with let's go.
[00:11:46] Aaron: I mean, yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, I've, I've been weirdly obsessed about, I, I don't know if you've ever heard of Dunbar's Number
[00:11:51] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.
No, no, no. What is that?
[00:11:52] Aaron: Uh, so Dunbar's number is this concept that like, uh, essentially like humans have like a cognitive limit for how much they can, you know, like you can only have a. Five really close friends are like family level relationships, and then there's like, you know, uh, 15 close friends and then, and it keeps on expanding out.
Right? Sure. I think we've all experienced that, that moment where, uh, group chat just gets way too many people in it. Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. And like it's co like it's constantly pinging, it's constantly going off notification silenced.
[00:12:26] Dr. Nicole: Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.
[00:12:28] Aaron: And, uh, um, and the same thing can happen in our personal lives too.
Like, you know, we, we invite too many people into these rings of like trust essentially. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Then it becomes overwhelming. Yeah. And it also like negatively impacts those, those relationships. You know, you, everybody wants to be as close to the center as possible, but there's, there's a, in a lot of cases there's a clear boundary between those.
Right. You know what you would, I think that. What is, uh, what's really interesting, I, with something like Facebook, right? Sure. I feel like as soon as like my grandma got on Facebook, I just stopped using it and, you know, and like, or like my boss or something like that. Sure, sure, sure. Like how do you, at a certain point it reaches, um, a moment where you're basically like, okay, how do I even post a message that can be received the same way?
Mm-hmm. Between like, my boss, my second grade teacher, my mom, my close friends. Yeah. Becomes impossible. Right? Right. So there's that boundary, and then, then there's sort of like the, um, the smorgasbord, right? Kind of like aspect, which is, can you. Basically take those relationships and, and figure out which ones you want with other people, you know, can you organize them at not only just at that sort of like the rings of mm-hmm.
Kind of like Dunbar's number, but also like, uh, within certain pockets of, uh, that, that are like, important to you or, or a Yeah. A social need that you have.
[00:14:03] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Look here, here's Pet Cat. I told you Pet Cat would come on mid recording. Hello. Cca, would you like to sit? Great, thank you.
She, yeah, just gotta come in on her own timing, I guess. All right.
[00:14:18] Aaron: Just a moment. I'll, I'll get mine. Oh, totally, totally. Gonna take it over
[00:14:23] Dr. Nicole: Cats for the recording? Yes. Oh, so cute. What's the cat's name?
[00:14:28] Aaron: His name is Moritz. Oh. Uh, max is the other cat. Uh, okay. And, uh, yeah, he's a, he's a sweetie pie, but, uh. But usually, apparently cats actually do like get onto your.
Lap or or otherwise want attention from you. Mm. When you're on Zoom, because they don't know you, you're talking to anybody else except for them. Oh.
[00:14:47] Dr. Nicole: So they're just like, oh, mom is calling for me.
[00:14:50] Aaron: Oh, right. They're like, oh, she's talking to me.
[00:14:53] Dr. Nicole: It's so funny because there have definitely been times in the, the years of recording the podcast where Fat Cat has come up and like, she's like, slapped me with her paw, not with nail, but I wonder if she's like, hello, dumb.
Like, I'm here. I'm right here. Oh, great. Love the cat moment. But yeah, I, I appreciate that, that reality. The, the fine, the finitude of our humanness and I've got cat on my face. Mm-hmm. Um, that there's only so much that we can connect with. Because I remember when I first started getting into relationship anarchy, I was like, yes.
Like we shouldn't have veto powers. That sounds highly problematic for the emotional integrity of other people's experience. Uh, they're not just this, um. Secondary object in my world, right? Yeah. And so I was like, yes, relationship anarchy. And then I got into it and I was like, okay, so I have like three partners, so I need to spread out.
Or like four, right? Like 25, 25, 25, 25. And then I remember doing my dissertation and people were like, relationship anarchy is also about my parents, it's also about my children. And I was like, oh, it's about right. Like deconstructing this. Priority we place on sex as the most meaningful relationship. And so me coming in from polyamory to relationship anarchy, I was still applying that lens of like 25, 25, 25, not realizing, oh, this is actually about all of our relationships and what does it mean to really treat all of them as valuable things that I should be investing my time and energy into.
And so that was such a paradigm shift. And then you're right, there's only so many people that we're able to really connect with and give that intentionality to. And so I think the best thing that we can do is to be really like as, as much as possible, clear with the people around us of what our capacities are, how we wanna connect.
And I think that, um, I've seen. Obviously then within that stratification, like different relationships in my world or other people's worlds that are closer. Right. And they're closer than some other ones. And I think the important difference being that like there's a respect and care for all people in that it's not like, oh, well, if my partner says they don't like you, you have to leave.
Right? Like, it's a very different world where you're, there's still like different levels of proximity, but, but respect for each person Yeah. That's in that and care for each person that's in that dynamic.
[00:17:13] Aaron: Yeah. I realized definitely there was, there was a point at which I think about a year ago Mm. Uh, in which I, I had realized that I, I messed up and that it was just like, I'm still messing up.
Right. But, but like so much she to learn. But like, no, no. I, I think at that moment I had double booked something, like I double booked day. Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. And I was like, oh, cred. Like, I, I need to make a change and like I, that's gonna happen. You know, double booking. Yeah. Like, it really made me like double down on tools to avoid that, right?
Mm-hmm. Like I, I, I figured out a shared calendar Yeah. With, uh, with folks. I, I taught, you know, I, I put in the work to basically kind of create the infrastructure that avoided that, that situation in the future. And it hasn't happened since then. Nice. But, you know, like it's, it, you know, those are things that you learn as you're going along, especially in Poly, where, you know, like, no, it, it isn't 25, 25, 25, it's, it's never gonna be that.
Yeah. Uh, but it does need to be managed, right? Mm-hmm. Like, you need to, you need to spec out those, those days that are like, for one, one person or another. Mm-hmm. And, and be really careful about, you know, um, about those like, not just like. Physical boundaries, but like time boundaries, right?
[00:18:32] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely, absolutely.
Yes. The shared Google calendar is like a Polly joke, right? It's like, oh yeah, I'm definitely a written calendar, sort of girly, you know? But, but I, I feel that. Um, so we're kind of getting into the second question then, which is, how do you practice relationship anarchy? So I'm hearing this intentionality to your time and energy, right?
Finding these tools that can help you with that. What are some of the other ways you practice relationship anarchy?
[00:19:01] Aaron: Um, uh, I pr right now, I practice relationship anarchy with, uh, three people. Mm-hmm. The first and the, and kind of the longest is not sexual. It's entirely, uh, either like professional or or friendship level Sure.
Kind of things.
[00:19:21] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.
[00:19:21] Aaron: But that's great for us. Like Yeah, totally fine. Yeah. Like that's, that's, and I think that that's like once we set those boundaries. We can adjust them and we, you know, and we certainly talk about them. But, um, but yeah, that, uh, um, that's like the first one. The second one is, um, we've been together for around two years.
Mm-hmm. And, um, and it started out a lot, like a lot more, uh, romantic. Mm-hmm. And it's, and it's kind of, you know, it's also sort of based on both of us kind of going through the experience of, of getting divorced. Mm. Mm-hmm. That one's also, uh, you know, she is fully Polly and has multiple partners. And so it, it is, uh, it's a very different situation than, um, my other relationship, which is, uh, where, where she is, she's much more, um, asexual.
Mm-hmm. And, and then, um, my. Latest relationship. She's actually monogamous. Like she, she doesn't have any other partner, but she also has, um, is like balancing two jobs, one of which is full-time, and the other, which is part-time and, and really like, just doesn't have the, the time to, or energy to have multiple relationships anyway.
[00:20:37] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.
[00:20:38] Aaron: But that's probably the only reason why she, you know, she's, uh, um, uh, she, she's kind of like. That's fine. Like, you know, I don't really have time for you in the same way as I would in, in a monogamous relationship, which is, which is interesting. Obviously I've had the discussion with her about like, well, I'm non monogamous, like I am, you know, I, I have, uh, other relationships.
And she's like, that's totally okay. I'm totally fine with it. And I, I like the fact that we're leaving the door open for me to decide to not be monogamous at some point. Yeah. Uh, it's just like, not in my plan. It's kind of like actually like right now. Yes. Uh, and, um, but I think that one of the things that I've noticed, especially with the monogamous, the, the last partner Yeah.
Is that like we've kind of let that like new relationship energy just Mm. Continue for almost like almost two years at this point. Yeah. And it's, and I feel like that's almost a part of the poly experience is that like, because you don't, you are kind of splitting your time, maybe not exactly like 25%.
Right? Right, right. But you are splitting your time and that, that allows you to have that space to, to let the relationship grow in a way that is, um, that's not so intensely like focused. Right. You know? Mm-hmm. It's like a, it's almost like a built-in level of, uh, distance. Yeah. Um, that I really appreciate and has been, yeah.
Just incredible. It, it, it, it really does feel amazing.
[00:22:14] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It keeps, uh, the erotic desire and the desire for connection in general really there when there's that amount of spaciousness. And rather than writing the escalator of, oh, we must move to this next level, this next level, this next level, this next level, and then realizing, wow, I actually don't like where we're at anymore.
How do we undo this? Right. And then the whole thing's a big bomb, right. Of. Painful emotional heartbreak, um, to be able to have this more deconstruction. It's a, the, uh, blank canvas there. You're connecting in so many different ways. And so if at some points you move closer, it's a little bit easier to also add back and forth, right?
Maybe one week you see them three times, maybe one week you don't see them at all. Maybe a couple months. I don't know where you're at with this person, right? But you have that ability to form that rather than this expectation that if we don't start seeing each other every single day, and then also live with each other, means we don't love each other, which is a lot to deconstruct.
Um, and, and often the level of security that is tied to that, where we feel like I have to do this to feel secure in the attachment. Um, like even for myself, I would notice that with, um, men, I would have a much. Harder time with spaciousness and the connection than I would with my fem and women partners.
So I could be like, oh, I haven't heard from them from a few weeks. It's fine. But then with a male, I have these experiences of trauma and other things that would bring it up and I'd be like, they're abandoning me. They're like, piece of shit to whatever I would slu, you know? And so it's interesting how, um, there's often such a drive for security with the relationship escalator too.
'cause if I started seeing them every day, I am like, oh, okay. They care about me. Right. So it's a lot to rewrite that level of security and love with these different narratives and then to see the different patterns with the different genders and all of it.
[00:24:02] Aaron: Yeah. And I, and I hear it's so interesting 'cause I do hear like stories from her of like her friends' relationships.
Mm. Like, you know, one of which, you know, there isn't a night in which they don't like send text messages to each other. Say like, goodnight. You know, and that actually like led to a fight because that didn't happen like one night. And like, you know, that it was like everything's wrong. Like every, you know, like it was like breakup moment, right?
Yeah.
[00:24:32] Dr. Nicole: Like, yeah.
[00:24:33] Aaron: Yeah. That level, like, that level of like exclusive kind of expectation right? Is, is so, uh. I'm so glad I'm not doing that. Mm. Like I, I'm just, and, and we're both like very happy with, you know, we, we text, it's not that we're not texting each other, we are Sure.
[00:24:53] Dr. Nicole: Sure.
[00:24:53] Aaron: But that, like, I think without that like, obligation to say something, even though you don't really have anything to say Right.
Yeah. Feels a lot better. Yeah. You know, and we, we both feel very secure, you know, beautiful. Without, without having to do the sort of performative stuff that mm-hmm. Um, that I feel like, uh, um, yeah, I, I'll say that, you know, I'm certainly coming out of, you know, about 10 years of like monogamous marriage.
Wow. You know? Yeah. You know, my wife cheated on me. Oof. Yeah. Um, and so, you know, that was a lot of, um. That was a very, obviously a very painful experience. I can imagine. Yeah. Um, it's certainly taken a while for me to open my heart again. Yeah. Like, I didn't want to expose myself to that like, level of pain once, you know, again.
Mm-hmm. Um, but, uh, certainly through poly and, and certainly through my partners, you know, and, and certainly through therapy. Yes, yes. Um, you know, I've really been able to, to reopen. Yeah. Also, the, uh, the aspect that I think Polly kind of fills within this is that even if I lose a partner, I have other partners Yeah.
To talk to about that pain or like mm-hmm. Or, or that loss.
[00:26:11] Dr. Nicole: Right, right.
[00:26:13] Aaron: Just having that sort of safety net, that social safety net is so important to me now. Yeah. Because I, I really was, I was that guy that like, you know, there wasn't a vacation in which we didn't. Take together. Mm. You know, there wasn't a friend group thing that we didn't do together.
You know, we were very much attached to the hip within my marriage, and it definitely put me into a state of being vulnerable when that relationship disappeared. Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah. I mean, makes sense. Yeah. It hurt.
[00:26:52] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah, yeah. Deeply. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That black hole of relating where you just,
[00:27:00] Aaron: I mean, it, it was, it was a moment of, wow, I've really put like all my eggs in one basket and this is like, I'm just gonna it no problem.
Uh, it really, it really was that moment of like, I had put my, all my eggs in one basket and like, maybe this is. Not a good idea. Yeah. And, uh, that I gotta figure out a better system that works for me.
[00:27:29] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. We all need that sort of community and support, and so I can only imagine to not have all these other people around you during that time of grief was probably tremendously difficult to come out of.
And yeah, it's a lot to unlearn after 10 years of living life in that way. And so I'm, I'm curious, given the insight that you have now, is there anything that you would say to your younger self when you look back,
[00:27:58] Aaron: especially as a, like my younger self, I, I really lacked a lot of, like self-esteem and self-confidence.
Mm-hmm. Sure. Um, you know, I didn't. I even throughout college, like I didn't really date that much. Um, I didn't really have that much experience around these things. I didn't have enough practice. And I think if I was going to tell my younger self anything, it's, you know, spend some time practicing love.
Mm-hmm. Don't just, you know, just throw everything into one place there. You know, like, yes, like depth in love is good and it's important, but you know, you don't need to go deep all at once. Mm-hmm. You don't just need to give up everything. Without having enough context to make those kinds of decisions.
Mm-hmm. There's other decisions that we totally force like 20 year olds to make that are absolutely like terrible, you know? Yeah, yeah. Being able, like getting a credit card, student loans, student loans, going to college, right? Yeah. Uh, you know, joining the army, right? Like there, um, getting married or, or at least the expectation of getting married around your twenties, early twenties.
[00:29:12] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I thought I was gonna have kids before 21 growing up in Christianity. That was my trajectory, right?
[00:29:18] Aaron: Like, yeah. And like, it, it is, um, there is an aspect of like, I don't really wanna tell young people what to do. Sure. Like, I, I really don't. I think that my parents and probably my parents' parents did plenty of that.
Yeah. Uh, and, uh, um, while there, there is something to be said about like, Hey, I'm older. I, I know what, what you should do. Like, uh, yeah. Um, I, I really think that, uh, people need to experience failure for themselves Sure. In a lot of cases. Mm-hmm. And, um. I think, if anything, I just didn't fail at relationships enough when I was younger.
[00:29:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, it's so hard when these systems are so embedded everywhere and how deep that goes within our unconscious. As I was researching this for my dissertation and getting deep into it, I felt like I knew so much cognitively. And then as I tried to step into the actual practice of it, it was jarring to find the ways that studying a phenomena, learning all the ins and outs, you know, that I could, in my possible time, does not translate to practice.
And so unlearning the, uh. Condition stimulus of right. My partner kissing someone else. And that being something that brought me down to the floor as I felt like this intense swirl of emotions and started crying like nothing could have prepared me for that immediate fear of abandonment that came up in my body, right?
As much as I read all the books, like, wow, you gotta start walking in. So there's so much compassion to have for all of us in the sense that we're all under these systems and it's deep within our unconscious. And so it's really difficult to come out from under that and and relearn security and relearn new narratives.
And so, yeah, I think it's important regardless. It's like, yeah, I don't wanna tell people how to live. And then also I feel like there is this universal truth that we can kind of sit on that again, regardless of what practice you do, we all need community.
[00:31:22] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:31:23] Dr. Nicole: Invest in the relationships around you. All of them do not just fall into one relationship of any kind, sexual, platonic, you need a community of people.
We're relational beings. And so I feel like that universal truth is something that we could, like proclaim is something that's healthy for all. Like literally we know that some of the most like psychological warped experiences happen when you're in isolation. That's why isolation is a form of torture for our, our species.
And so like I feel like we can rest. At least on that of like, you know, if I could look to my younger self, it's like, please do not put all the eggs in one basket. Please, please tend to all these beautiful relationships. And, and, and honestly, based on what I see with my research and sexuality, if you are having sex with one person, taking space with other people, even if you're not having sex with them, is a lot of what brings that desire is having that day.
Often under capitalism, that's all of us away from work at work, right. Or these other people. But like, you need that sort of diversity to have that longing and desire. And then for me, I, I find so much life force in being able to connect erotically with so many different people that it brings such a love and appreciation for each individual person that I get that.
So no matter where you're doing it, you gotta connect with multiple people to really feel your most human and alive. I think that's like a non-negotiable piece of this.
[00:32:48] Aaron: I think so too. You know, my friendships that I've had for like almost 15 years now Yeah. Those are the relationships that, you know, out of all of this, I very much value, yeah.
I, I value it more than any of the cash that I could ever get out of a job or anything, or, uh, any sort of possession that I have, you know? Mm-hmm. It is, um, I think that there was an article a while ago from, uh, like NPR that was on NPR that was Sure. Uh, about how, um, you know, close friends, uh, can help you live longer.
[00:33:19] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. There it is.
[00:33:20] Aaron: And I think even in the article it said you can't just have a wife, like, at least if you're a, or like, or a husband, right? Yeah. Like, you need to have more than that. You need to have a community. Mm-hmm. And when we think about like, you know, maybe like prehistoric man or something like that, or, or look to towards like Bonobos and how they live or, or chimpanzees, you know, they, they, they live in troops, they live in tribes, and those tribes have relationships with one, like everybody has a relationship with everyone else in that group.
Going back to the politics of it, right. That the suburbanization of like Americans has, has created so many toxic. Relationships that we have with other people and, and certainly broken down a lot of the things that, that allowed for like social revolution in other, um, in other countries. It's so interesting when you hear about most social revolutions.
They happened when they were talked about at, uh, you know, a community gathering space at like, you know Sure. The beer hall or something like that. Sure. And, and that just doesn't exist. No. In, in America. Yeah. You're pay, at least at this moment, you gotta pay to meet in that, that house.
[00:34:35] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Pay to rent it out and then Yeah, absolutely.
I know it's jarring when you think about it all. And the scale, it really scale. It is the scale of it all, and then the, the pain of it all. So many people are isolated now more than ever. People are, are dating ai. Whoa. You know, like I, it's know's a fascinating time to be alive and, uh. Yeah, exactly. Taking a deep breath on that one.
I, I like to think that it's all gonna be for the best, but I, there's definitely gonna be some bumpy rides along this as we learn to like, um, navigate what it means to maintain social skills. Yeah. For rupture and repair when things become, so, when gratification becomes so instant with our lives. Mm-hmm.
Right. Like, if I can just get an instant answer right now, why would I wanna go with this other human that I have to sit down and do this rupture and repair work, and they're stru, oh God. You know, like, you see how fast that's gonna woo. Yeah. You know, like, like it's gonna get interesting before it gets better.
[00:35:37] Aaron: Yeah. I mean, I, I think, um, triangulation is something that I'm. Desperately trying to kind of avoid, and it really does take time and practice to recognize when you're about to triangulate out to someone to help rescue a situation that you should be dealing with, right? Sure,
[00:35:56] Dr. Nicole: sure.
[00:35:57] Aaron: These are things that take practice, you know, that's just one example of many different traps that that can happen in any friendship, in any relationship that you have.
Yeah. And, um, uh, and I'm not just talking like friend, I'm talking about like professional relationships. Totally. You know, uh, I'm talking about childcare, right? Like Right. You know, the classic example of triangulation is, well, mom told me I could, but dad told me I couldn't. Right, right. So, you know, it's like, mm-hmm.
So, um, but these things apply across the board. Yeah. And, uh, carefully avoiding them carefully managing, or at least practicing how to handle conflict is, is so, so important.
[00:36:40] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Especially when you get into even smaller communities, like for me as a queer rock climbing polyamorous person, there's only like two really big gyms in Chicago, and you start to how many poly people?
Wow. You start to all really know each other. At least within my age group, you know, I'm sure there's some older and younger that I have not tapped into, but once you start to know everybody and then there's a comm. Flipped, and then that person goes around and talks to other people. Or maybe I've been that person that goes around and talks to other people and you're like, oh, wow.
I've just put a lot of different people into a really complex situation about privacy and consent to show, oh my, it is an endless, in a way that I never had to navigate really when I was in a monogamous culture, because it was this very simple narrative of, um, I, I know not all monogamous relationships are like this, but for me, you know, it's like this, like we date and then like some sort of intense rupture happens.
You can not see that person again, and then you're not in able to share friends space ever again. I know that's not all of it, but like, damn, there's just so much feelings and unconscious stuff I didn't even know how to sit with at that time in my life that it w it really was ca chaotic.
[00:37:51] Aaron: Yeah. And, and limiting too.
Yeah. Right. Like, I mean, I think the biggest thing since, you know, um, since I embraced Poly in the last two years is like. Me and my ex-wife, we, we didn't do anything within kink or like, and I didn't know anything about it. Sure. You know, there, like, there's this whole world that was kind of out outside of even like my visibility.
Yeah. That's much because yeah. It wasn't something that, I mean, it's, I can't say that I'm like a big ster or anything like that. Sure. I don't know that much, but, um, but I also, like, I now have partners that are interested in exploring that, you know? Yeah. And going to like, uh, um, uh, into going to like a playhouse or something like that.
Mm-hmm. And uh, um, and kind of exploring that together.
[00:38:41] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Have you taken the BDSM test? No,
[00:38:46] Aaron: I actually haven't. I have not,
[00:38:50] Dr. Nicole: I mean, I didn't create this and I'm not necessarily endorsing it, but it's such a big, like, normalized thing within the community of like, especially, you know, on different, like, you know, fe life.
I've seen it on Fe life. Yeah. I was on fe Life. It's like, here you go. Um, and I always thought it was interesting that one of the categories on there was non-monogamy, right? Because as someone who's been practicing this for many years, that doesn't feel kinky in any capacity, right? So it's, it's really interesting to think about like where I, when we think about relationship anarchy, I think we can also apply it to something like kink, right?
Relationship anarchy being about like power structures and deconstructing the ways that they're so deeply internalized within our unconscious. And so if we're thinking about that, like kink being this definition of non-normative. I think like it's, it's not just about sex, I would say non-normative sexuality and eroticism.
Right. Um, who's defining the norm? 'cause polyamory feels really normal to me and my community right now. And so, like, I wouldn't put that on that list, but from a monogamous lens, yeah. I guess that is super kinky. Right. And so it's just interesting of like, how do we even define these things, you know?
[00:40:00] Aaron: Yeah.
That is really interesting. And power, the, the, the poly community and king community, I mean, there is overlap, but not as much as I would think, or at least I would think, you know, coming into it. And, yeah. And also like, I mean, I was in one relationship closer to the start of the year. Mm-hmm. And it was purely kink.
Mm. Um, it was, uh, it was, uh, purely rope play.
[00:40:22] Dr. Nicole: Cool.
[00:40:23] Aaron: But it wasn't sexual at all.
[00:40:24] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly. Exactly right.
[00:40:26] Aaron: It was, and it was. And you know, she, she, she, uh, she was a lesbian. She actually had like a, a partner and they had a kid, and yeah, they were married, and it was, but it was not, it was not a sexual thing at all.
[00:40:39] Dr. Nicole: Beautiful embodiment.
[00:40:41] Aaron: Um, I know, and, and sensual, I, I loved it. And I actually, like, I learned a lot about not only like the, the thing that I really wanted to kind of like practice was I wanted to both be able to like, give and receive rope play safely, you know? And, and that really gave me the tools necessary to, to kind of figure out that practice and, and to do it properly.
Um, because, you know, really at the end of the day, I just wanna be skilled at being a good lover and a good partner, you know? Yes, yes. Don't we?
[00:41:10] Dr. Nicole: All right. Don't we all,
[00:41:13] Aaron: you know, I mean, I will say that like. I don't feel like I've even slightly nerded out enough. Sure. Same when it comes to role play and my God, like it's, it's, it's a little overwhelming.
Yeah. It's like, it's like learning a new instrument or something like that. Oh, yeah. That, oh yeah.
[00:41:27] Dr. Nicole: I've taken some classes even as a, a bottom and I was like, wow. The top is, I mean, there's a lot to learn as bottom too, but the, the knots, I'm like, wow, wow. Uh, you could nerd out for a lifetime. Right. And so I think it's, it's interesting you were talking about the politics of it all, and it's like, I.
I do believe that at our core, all of us want to be better lovers. All of us want to be the best sort of human that we can be, even when we are seeing people causing harm. I think that like, you know, stepping into radical empathy of understanding their current context and situation. Also to take accountability for that, of course, but to understand their current contents.
I think all of us want to have these skills. I do not think that I should have to be in hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt without any joke there to become a psychologist, right? Like right, to get these skills on how to help people and be good in relationships, which is how the therapeutic relationship works.
Is that relationship right? Like, whoa. So I think we need radical system change where we could have all of these sorts of skills as part of our fundamental education, uh, hands down. And so that's why I practice relationship anarchy. And so I'm curious, why do you, why is this something that you do in your life?
[00:42:41] Aaron: I practice this because I need to experience everything. I need to know, and I need to practice, and I need to fail, and hopefully I fail without hurting other people. That is, that is by far one of my core values. Right. Yeah. I don't wanna hurt anyone, of course, but I also, I need that space mess up. Yeah.
And, and to get better, to be good at this, you know? Um, to be good at having relationships, practicing relationships, and Yeah. So a large part of it is mm-hmm. That I need this time to rebuild myself. Sure. You know, rebuild my relationships and, okay. Like, for instance, I've tried out this kink, like I've, I've tried out role play, but is this the only kink that I like or, or don't like?
You know, like, I'm like, these are aspects that, you know, I probably should have figured out at least in my early thirties. But I didn't, that wasn't a part of, you know, the life that I, that I brought on, you know, when I got married at a pretty early age. Mm-hmm. So I feel, I feel deeply that it's like, I, I don't have enough perspective.
Mm. And, and more than that. I don't know if I'll ever have enough perspective.
[00:43:57] Dr. Nicole: Right, right. That's what I was saying, because when do you hit that limit? I think I'll still be getting to the end. Like that was a novel experience. Wow.
[00:44:03] Aaron: Yeah. Right. Hopefully. Right. Hopefully. No, I, I, I think, you know, going back to like the relationship anarchy aspect, you know, the point is the journey.
It's not, it's not the destination. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. There's never a happy ending. Yeah. That you're trying to get to. Mm-hmm. You know, it is, it is about enjoying the moment and the experience and, you know, and what, what you did with this short time that we have on our, on this planet.
[00:44:31] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. So, coming into presence, right? Mm-hmm. The presence of it all, and sometimes that means the pain of the polyamorous relationship you're in, where he still lied and you say, why, right? And then you cry for a long time and you say, why? Yeah. Um, but man, I was present with that pain, wasn't I? Um, you know, and so,
[00:44:53] Aaron: I mean, for, for me, I had, I, you know, I, one of the, one of the early things I did, uh, was I had sex with one of my best friends.
Mm. And that was, that was kind of a huge mistake in a lot of ways. Mm. I think that it, it changed like our relationship a lot. Sure. But also, like there were, there was aspects of like, jealousy that I didn't really know how to deal with. Yeah. Um, that I didn't have enough practice and understanding about.
Right. I recognized kind of early on that they just didn't have the, the capability to be, to, to really, you know, self-analyze is probably the best word. I mean, it's, yeah. Like they, like they were, you know, they, they were, um, their behavior, their actions, uh, their jealousy, like these things I couldn't, I realized I couldn't really talk to, uh, him about, because it was impossible for me to, um, to break through, you know, that, that sort of barrier.
Um mm-hmm. Because it, you know, in a lot of ways, like, and you know, even though I asked. It's never happened, but I was like, you really should, you know about these aspects. You really should see a therapist or something to, to work through these problems. Mm-hmm. Um, and, uh, you know, and, and I had to walk away once it was obvious that he wasn't able to, to even, you know, put in that work.
Mm-hmm. You know, I'm not, I'm not saying that everybody needs to be in therapy, but if you're dealing with, like, if you're dealing with trauma, like he was, I, I just wish, um, you know, I wish I could do more, but I know that there's, there's certainly limits to what I can provide as a partner.
[00:46:38] Dr. Nicole: Sure.
[00:46:38] Aaron: Um,
[00:46:39] Dr. Nicole: yep.
[00:46:40] Aaron: I, you know, I, yeah.
It's, uh, I think it's very easy to fall into the trap of becoming someone's therapist. Mm.
[00:46:47] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And yeah, and then like when
[00:46:49] Aaron: you're, when you're empathizing, I should say.
[00:46:51] Dr. Nicole: And what, and what happens when you actually are a therapist and you're like, how do I make relationships now? What do I do? Right? Like it's.
Fast. Like, oh man, I've sat that space for a long time. I'm not just normal anymore. But it's fascinating because I think that's where I go back to that, that scale of the systems and the politics of it all. Because to survive in our current world where 49% of the global wealth is owned by the 1%, uh, we all have to work jobs that keep us away from getting the time that we need to build these educational, um, resources and insight into relationships.
Yeah. And so yeah, under our current structure, it's like, Hey, like for me to survive under this current dynamic and feel okay, like I cannot support you in this way and I need you to see the professional. And then I go to that deeper stance of like, how do we dismantle the systems that we all have the skills?
Because prior to what, like 200 years ago, we didn't fucking have therapists, right? We all lived in community and figured it out together, but that was much before like this mass systems that we live under now. Yeah. And so it's like, I hear you. The nuance of that is tricky key. It's overwhelming. Yeah. Oof.
Deep breaths, you know? Yeah. And so like, we're, we're, we're hitting on so many of these big systems that are impacting us in our interpersonal relationships within our community and within the world at large. And so I'm curious, how does relationship anarchy impact your practice of intimacy? What has that looked like for you?
[00:48:18] Aaron: I mean, like, what ha what hasn't it done? Yeah, sure. Exactly. I hear you. Uh, it's so, I mean, I think of it as every relationship having its own snowflake of intimacy. Yeah. Right. It's so, you know, it's not just having lots of partners, it's having lots of different kinds of intimacy and relationships and support.
And so, you know, I mean, we, we did talk about like the, uh, new relationship energy and also that sort of like. Wow. 25% sort of time. Right? Yeah. But there's also a fina finite amount of like, you know, uh, sex that I can have. Sure, sure. You know, at least enjoyably. Mm-hmm. Right. And, uh, and there's a finite amount of intimacy I can give, right?
Yeah. And I always have to keep kind of track of that and, and balance that between all of my partners and, um, and also sort of check in like, is this the intimacy that you want? Right, right. Or are you not? If you, you know, if you're not interested, it's fine too. Like mm-hmm. You know, it's okay. We can adjust those boundaries, you know, as long as, as we're continuing to communicate.
[00:49:32] Dr. Nicole: Right, right. And change is the only inevitable that we have. So we can do that relationship anarchy, smorgasbord. And then how soon do we have to do it again? I don't know, a month, right? Six. Like, where are we? You know, it's like, it's that ongoing discussion. I, I love the, the concepts of meeting under, uh, mutual enjoyment, mutuality rather than obligation.
And so I feel like that is a constant ongoing discussion. Um, and then when we get clear on what we're agreeing to, I, I found myself, uh, one of my lovers, like really wanted to do the relationship anarchy, smorgasbord. And at that time in our dynamic, I was feeling so burnt out by the high levels of processing.
'cause it's always like the things you fall in love with also end up being some of the hardest parts of the relationship. So we were like heady intellectuals and we're like going, going, going. And then when things are wrong, we're like going, going, going, going, going. And I'm like my eye. Need to stop. Like, this is, I need no more talking.
Thank you. Um, and so when he was like, let's do the smorgasbord, let's do it. I was like, no. There is so many things that board doesn't even begin to touch. It's futile, it's pointless. Like, I can't even get into it, you know? And so it's so funny, at the beginning of the journey, I'm like, wow, look at this really cool thing.
And then I'm now, I mean, I'm like, it's not enough, you know? And so it's like, it's like, well,
[00:50:47] Aaron: I mean, it's never gonna be enough, right?
[00:50:49] Dr. Nicole: I know, I know, I know. So it's like ongoing discussions, you know? Yeah.
[00:50:53] Aaron: Yeah. It's, it's like, you know, I mean, if it was just about like writing laws and we wouldn't need judges, right?
Like, this is the thing you, you need to have that moment, you know, in court, uh, to be able to figure out like, what did that boundary actually mean? Mm-hmm. In this particular situation. Was the boundary broken? You know, was it. Too well respected. I think, uh, um, yeah, there's, there is an aspect of like, yeah, no, it, like, certainly the smorgasbord isn't everything, right, but it, it's supposed to sort of be the starting place for you to, to figure out those boundaries, um, yeah.
In a more personalized way.
[00:51:40] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's a good starting point and then continued discussion, right? Because Lord knows like, I, please text me on my birthday. That's not on there. You know what I mean? Like all these little things, it's wild. The infinite complexity of our, our humanness.
And so we're kind of hitting on some of the difficulties then, which is the next question. What are the difficulties of relationship anarchy for you?
[00:52:04] Aaron: Resource management, for sure. Sure. Yeah. You know, like it is, uh, making sure that you're, you. Not only thinking like a day out, but a week out and a month out.
Like, you don't wanna miss somebody's birthday. Right. That feels that that's terrible, you know, for anybody. And you, you want to make sure that you're setting aside the time, you know, uh, the time. That's like, that's, that's kind of written out by the, you know, by something like a SMS sport, but also just like, you know, getting that feel, you know, in the relationship of how much time should you be spending together.
Mm-hmm. Um, and also like, you know, making exceptions for when emergencies pop up too. By emergencies, I don't mean like just going to the er, I, I mean like, you know, if there is a, a serious moment of like maybe someone got fired. Yeah. Or, you know, so professionally or, um, maybe they lost a loved one. Yeah. Or maybe, you know, um, maybe they just had a really shitty day.
Yeah. Or, or, uh, or, or are starting to fall into depression. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, that those are all emergencies to me. And, you know, I, I make exceptions for those. I cancel plans for those. Mm-hmm. Um, because that's, that's really important. Yeah. Yeah. Fluidity. Yeah. Fluidity. My biggest difficulty right now is, uh, you know, finding guys that I like.
Sure. I, I think I came out as mm-hmm. Like pansexual, you know, at the same time as I came out as poly to my friends and my family. And I think that my biggest problem, at least when it comes to trying to sort of explore and, you know. You know, in practice gay relationships is sort of this like, I don't know if there's a better way to explain this, but this sort of grinder, uh Mm sure, sure.
Culture that, that is, that is so sexually driven in, in the gay community. Yeah. God. Um, if anything, I've found, uh, relationships with buy guys a lot better when I run into them, which is, well, you know, there is no bispecific place to, to find, right, right. Um, so, uh, so yeah, the other difficulty I've had is that, uh, you know, most women, you know, expect a guy to be, uh, dominant and uh, uh, and that, that's not really my vibe.
You know, I'm not, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I, you know, I think, I think somebody described my energy as, uh, little Brother energy. Mm. You know, and, uh, and I don't, I don't think that, um, I don't think that fits with a lot of people, or at least I haven't really found it to fit with people who are looking for a more domineering, maybe type of, uh, person.
Um, so
[00:55:06] Dr. Nicole: yeah. Yeah, yeah.
[00:55:08] Aaron: Yeah. Uh, it's, uh, it, you know, I, but I also see that as being like kind of an extension of patriarchy anyway. And like I, and, you know, and maybe I shouldn't really look for those types of people or like, or really like, if that that is what they're looking for. Maybe it's just not something that I want to embrace.
[00:55:31] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, I, what, how I look at it is kind of like how I look at other sorts of drugs and experiences, right? Because, uh, my re my clinical work in psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, I did a lot of training in drug use and chaotic drug use, right? And so you think about the relationship that we have to these different experiences, right?
So the relationship to dominance, relationship to a substance, it becomes chaotic when you need it and you cannot. Function without it. Right. And so when someone says, I need dominance all the time, and that is the only energy that ever turns me on, well now I feel a little different about that than, Hey, sometimes it's fun to play where I'm the dom.
Sometimes it's fun to play with. You are the dom. That's a very different space than like, I need this drug all the time in this exact way. And I think, yeah. You're so right to be hitting on the ways that our, our culture has really reinforced this. When I look back on my very Christian upbringing, let's go all the way back to my Christian upbringing, okay.
I was taught that the man is closer to God. That's not even a joke. I don't know where you've come from, but like that was a very real time in my life. And so if I was,
[00:56:42] Aaron: I'm so sorry. It's so, thank you. That's rough. Like I, I, yeah. I, I'll say like, I, I am happily, I've, I grew up with academics. I love that. For you specifically?
Yeah, specifically parents that were like, uh, where I would ask questions like, well. You know, what do where, you know, uh, where he, I would say, what do you believe in? Or like, what, what's the right religion? Or, you know, that things, and they'd be like, no. Well, what do you believe in? They would immediately go back to me, make me make up something, you know?
Yes. Or like, or me approach it. Yes. I think at one point I said like, I, I, I think the sun is God. Sure. Yeah. Something like that. I was like, it seems reasonable.
[00:57:30] Dr. Nicole: I love that you didn't experience this hole that I had to climb out of because men were closer to God. And I believed that full heartedly, which is so wild where I'm at now.
But yeah, at the time I was like, yes, men are closer to God. My parents were both, um, only graduated from high school. So I'm a first gen undergrad and now a graduate student, um, or first gen graduate holder. Wow. Yeah. I've graduated by the time this is coming out. Um, yeah. Yeah, so that's a bit of a journey to unpack.
[00:57:58] Aaron: Congratulations, by the way.
[00:57:59] Dr. Nicole: Thank you. I appreciate that. What a journey. What a journey. I've come so far from my family. It's tricky in terms of consciousness. My mom's still Mormon. There's a lot there. Um,
[00:58:10] Aaron: oh yeah, yeah.
[00:58:11] Dr. Nicole: Yep. And so men were closer to God and they were supposed to lead. That was a big part of it is that the man is supposed to lead the head of the household.
And so like, yeah, of course I was very attracted to like strong, domineering men who never cried because I would be weakness. And so when I go way back, I was unattracted to men who, who would cry. I was unattracted to queer men. The getting to a space where I'm like, I don't think I will ever date another cis heterosexual man that I, I mean I'm, I'm here to be proven wrong.
I'm here to be proven wrong, but my natural tendencies these days are towards queer people who can hold all different types of capacities and, and that being so beautiful and expansive and so like yeah, that journey is quite a transformation.
[00:59:00] Aaron: Yeah, I mean I, it's so funny 'cause like, yeah, I. I do feel like a lot of my relationships, I'm just sort of picking up the pieces from, uh, guys who just don't have any, uh, any ability to express themselves emotionally.
Yeah. And I was like, I was telling someone recently, I was like, you know, I really love a movie that makes me cry. Yeah. You know, like, why, you know, it, it's so, it feels so good to cry sometimes. Mm-hmm. Like, so good. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, it's like a, for me, it just feels like a, like a dessert or something like that.
Like, it's like you just, such a good, such a great release and it's just pains me. There's these people out here who are just like
[00:59:46] Dr. Nicole: holding so much
[00:59:47] Aaron: crying. Yeah. I dunno if that's like,
[00:59:51] Dr. Nicole: yeah.
[00:59:52] Aaron: What, what's wrong with you?
[00:59:54] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:59:56] Aaron: And these like Miyazaki films that are just absolutely beautiful. Like sure. You know, I can't watch Princess Modern.
Okay. Without like crying. Mm. Yeah. Like, it's just mainly because Beautiful. Because, you know, you kind of like know the ending at this point. Mm-hmm. But it's sort of like, it's just everything that like leads up to it. That's just so like, yeah. Oh, but also there's that like reboot birth thing and thing, and I, and I feel that way.
There's certain movies I'm, I'm very movie obsessed. Sure, sure, sure. But, uh, there's certain movies that I use that I'm just like,
[01:00:22] Dr. Nicole: beautiful. Yeah. I'm so glad you're tapped into that. I'm so glad you're tapped into that. You know, because yeah, there's so many people generally, but especially men who are just holding so much in there and can't fathom because it's quite literally been unsafe for people, you know, from a young age man are taught, Hey, man up, be a be a man.
Right? So. And it's, it's heartbreaking to see the suicide rates of men drastically higher than women, right? Yeah. And so we have to take all of that into context here with what's going on. And so I always say as a, you know, as a psychotherapist and sex advocate, you know, and I always say that, uh, you can only come as hard as you can cry because it's all about being in touch with your body and sensations and your experiences and your vulnerability, right?
And so I think that the cry harder come harder, folks. I say that all the time and that's what it means to be a pleasure activist. And so we're hitting on some of the joys then of like expression and tapping in more to your body. I'm, I'm curious, what are some of the other joys you've had with relationship anarchy?
[01:01:28] Aaron: Just, I think just being really okay with my lifestyle. Like that acceptance, you know, I don't think that there's any, none of my friends have never made me feel bad. Mm-hmm. And. My parents and my sister, like they are, they're very, very supportive.
[01:01:44] Dr. Nicole: So jealous.
[01:01:45] Aaron: Uh, and like, I know, I, I mean,
[01:01:47] Dr. Nicole: I had to work hard to get that support.
[01:01:50] Aaron: Yeah. I will say that. Uh, you know, so when I was growing up, my mom came out of the closet. Oh, wow. Okay. So like right around it when I was about 12. Nice. You know, my, my, uh, um, you know, my mom and my dad divorced and my mom, uh, you know, started her own journey into, you know, um, but it was, it was a very like two thousands kind of like lesbian journey.
Mm-hmm. Right. And if anything, if, if any of my. Uh, family has had like a weird reaction to, to me being Polly, it's probably my mom. Hmm. Uh, because she, you know, uh, her, um, her kind of like coming out sort of liberation Sure. Experience still included, you know, finding the one. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, when I, when I came out, you know, being pansexual, that's fine.
Like that, I don't think I've had as much of an impact, but there was a few times in which my mom said, well, you'll find the one, something like that. And I was just like, I don't think you understand, you know? Yeah. Fully. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, that's, that's, uh, you know, there, there's also, um, something about the 2000 sort of, uh, LGBT community that's very different, very different than Oh yeah.
Uh, 2000 tens. 2020.
[01:03:18] Dr. Nicole: Sure. Yeah, the younger generations are coming out rating some of the highest rates of non-monogamy that we've ever seen generationally. And so what it means to be queer and expansive is changing. And it also makes sense too, when you had to fight so long for liberation to like still stay within a box of what is normally accepted when you're so, Hey, hey, hey, we're normal.
We're normal. We, we can do the normal thing. Yeah. Look at us doing the normal thing. You know? And so that makes sense.
[01:03:49] Aaron: Um, in, in context, like there was a, I, I remember, um. You know, my mom coming to terms with like, she wanted to get married, you know, right around like 2004, 2003. Right. And coming to terms with like, well, I don't just want to have a civil union.
I wanna get married. Yeah. And then, yeah. And then, you know, and then going over to, um, Washington, DC perform the, the ceremony at the time because it, and so I think about it in context and to her, like seeking to normalize monogamy
[01:04:26] Dr. Nicole: Yep.
[01:04:27] Aaron: Was the fight.
[01:04:29] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Makes sense. You know?
[01:04:31] Aaron: And now, now it's, it's very different, right?
[01:04:33] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Mm, absolutely, absolutely. Everything within context. And so what are some of, what kind of transition do I have here for this? What are, we're gonna balance this out. Okay. We talked about some of the difficulties. What are some of the joys that you've experienced with relationship anarchy?
[01:04:55] Aaron: I wanna say that, uh, really it's the ability to experience so many different things mm-hmm.
At once. And like, not feel jailed down to any one relationship or one experience with one person. It is that expansiveness. Yeah. You know, that I find incredibly important to my life and, um, and incredibly enjoyable.
[01:05:22] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.
[01:05:24] Aaron: I honestly, at this point, you know, it's been about two years now, I can't imagine my life being different.
[01:05:30] Dr. Nicole: Mm.
[01:05:31] Aaron: I love it. Mm-hmm.
[01:05:32] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Once you go down the rabbit hole, you have forever changed, you know? Yeah. There, there have been some days, you know, when like things, things are going, you know, not wrong per se, but I would just say complex in my journey where I'm like, damn, it was so much simpler before this. Can I go back?
And it's like, well, you got all this insight and awareness now. No, you can't. Now that you stretched, you can't go back. Right. Like, like Right. I, I like literally cannot. Um, and so yeah, you're here now. You are here now on the ride. You know what I mean? And just embracing it for what it is every way of the journey.
And um, what I was hearing you say was like the abundance of possibilities, right? Just the abundance of possibilities that are available now when. I, I, I talk about exclusivity, right? We all want the, you know, pa the exclusivity. I wanna be special and special. And I think for me, it's been such a transformation to find exclusivity of the individual.
There is no other Aaron, there is no other Nicole, there is no any other, all of my lovers. And so there is that level of unquote exclusivity. And I hope that people can feel that security of that like, of like,
[01:06:41] Aaron: I hope so too.
[01:06:42] Dr. Nicole: Hey, you're a cool human. Like I'm a cool human. There is no other you. That's amazing.
Yeah. And that's transformed rather than an exclusivity of action.
[01:06:52] Aaron: Yeah.
And so, um, when things are more able to be fluid and fluctuate and then have that sort of freedom paired with the values of community care, which are something that come together and are really complex, right? That we have to balance in so many different ways. But that freedom is, is that life force. You don't feel locked in a box anymore.
If you want something in your life to experience something, you could check in with the people around you and have a consent conversation about it, where they either support you in that or go their other way. And like, we're all lovingly support each other in that, right? Like, and so like, it's. Such a transformation to feel that kind of capacity in your heart to know that if there is something that you want, that you can have those communications with the people in your community and then be able to experience that, that's transformative.
And so life-giving.
[01:08:01] Aaron: Yeah. It really is. And it, it feels healthy.
[01:08:05] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[01:08:06] Aaron: You know, like, it doesn't, it's not just that it, it, it, it's not just a quantitative, like I have all these great relationships type of thing. Mm-hmm. It's that it feels like the right thing for me to do. Yeah. And for the way that I wanna live my life.
Mm-hmm. And like, that's more important than anything else to me right now. Yeah. Like, I really wanna, you know, I, I feel that. And, uh, and it brings me joy every day.
[01:08:37] Dr. Nicole: Beautiful. Beautiful, beautiful. Well, that's a great segue into the last question I have of the research, which is what do you wish other people knew about relationship anarchy?
[01:08:48] Aaron: You know, I, I wish people knew about anarchy in general.
[01:08:52] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Let's start there. It's not chaos,
[01:08:57] Aaron: right. Uh, you know, I mean, it's not chaos. It's actually, you know, I try so hard to explain like what a horizontal power structure is. Mm. You know, like, I try so hard to explain that. Like anarchy is, you know, has been given a very bad rap.
Sure, sure. Yes. By, mostly by marketing. Yeah. But, uh, you know, but also for obvious reasons. You know, we want any, everybody wants to enforce a power structure because. You can gain power over other people. So recognizing that each one of these hierarchies that are in our lives are also really hurting them, like hurting our lives deeply is a part of anarchy in general, but relationship anarchy especially, there is so much that can be done to democratize relationships.
Uh, in general, you know, it, you don't need to be like, well, this, this person is in charge of sex. The, uh, financial situation, the job. Mm-hmm. You know, the, you know, the kink that we have. Yeah. The, you know, all of these things. Like, you're basically making a tyrant of your partner in those regards and. When have we ever loved tyrants?
Right? Like, why, why in what? Re you know, in what world are we like, yeah, let's go the dictator route for a relationship or Right. Uh, or, or really anything else. I think stepping back, if anything, I feel that people should really step back and look at that, like heteronormative man and woman and like two kids in the picket fence house out in the suburbs.
How much of that is really kind of designed around that patriarch, right? Or that really, that dictator, you know, in that context, maybe we should be, um, flattening out that structure a little bit more and, uh, and, and figuring out ways to defer that power that maybe one person had traditionally to lots of people.
Yeah. Um. Because you can't get away from relationships being at least somewhat of a power dynamic, you know, there no matter what. Even if it's mutual power, it's still power. You know, within that context, you know, you, you can, you can view relationship anarchy as a screw this hierarchy. I, I actually, uh, think that the idea of this one person being in charge of this one thing can be broken up, can be shared, um, and, and can be democratized in a way that's just not, not possible.
Uh, in, in, in other situations. Yeah. Even, even in Poly, right. You know, there's, there are like hierarchical polys,
[01:12:17] Dr. Nicole: right? Like Right, right. And then even like, I've got two partners. Even if you do a non hierarchy there, like, hey, you have a whole group of friends, like you two people are not gonna satisfy. You have a whole group of friends, lovers, people who birthed you to get you here.
Like, let's look at all of it. Right? And so it's just wild. But I mean, as someone who previously really inhabited that consciousness, given where I was at, where like the man's the head of the household, I'm gonna get married and have kids by 21. It's everything of what society reinforced to me. And so if you told me to break that up, I'd say you're.
Stupid. How dare, like you're gonna die alone. Right? All of that crazy stuff that I would've said. Um, but it's wild because when you look back to, I mean, it's just, it's a reflection of how deep the power systems are. Because if you look back to times before we had even the privatization of property and we're more of a fluid hunter gatherer.
Like we read Sex at Dawn and come back to this conversation, you know, like Read Untrue by Wednesday, Martin, and come back and talk to me after you've talked about the plow, right. And what that did for gender and um, privatization of space. And, and even within the privatization of space, like men were still really expected to have concubines and other sorts of spaces where they could go and have sex because that's what men do.
And then women were really put into this box of We will stone you if you have sex with anybody else. And so it's fascinating to be where we're at because if you really get into the history of it, like a great book, um, how Love Conquered Marriage. I like read that for my dissertation. Wow.
[01:13:52] Aaron: Gotcha.
[01:13:52] Dr. Nicole: Fascinating, right? Like getting into all of that, into all the different cultures, right? Like this stuff isn't readily available Again, we live in a system where you have to go to your nine to five job Monday through Friday. And so you can't do the nerdiest deep dive, a deep dive without getting into hundreds of thousands of dollars of student loans to write your dissertation on it.
So like, wow, here we are. Um, but when you do get into that, you go, oh shit. This was not what we were doing until very recently within our culture. Oh, yeah. And so there's a lot of insight to go all the way back and learn from of, of course now we're here in this day and age where like we've got things like AI and other stuff.
So like we can't just strictly look back to the past. 'cause things are radically different and we are in a very connected world where you can have at your fingertips hundreds of people that you could contact within the next 30 minutes if you really wanted to shoot a text.
[01:14:43] Aaron: You know, like, but to be clear, like we still have monkey brains.
Exactly. There's still like, you know, yeah. I mean, you look, you look at, um, I think that if, if, like you really wanna look at like non-monogamy, uh, and certainly like poly Bonobos. Yeah. Bonobos or, yeah. A great example like of, of like how it actually could work. You know, the, uh, Bonobos are like very non monogamous actually.
Like they have a lot of sex, but also they're matriarchal. Like it's, it's technically it. Every troop has, um, uh, has a female who's in charge. Hmm. But it's also very, it's not hierarchal as almost at all. Like, I think, I think maybe there is that one, uh, matriarch. But otherwise it's, it's very, uh, um, it's very horizontal.
Yeah. Uh, they don't fight. They use sex, you know, or they wanna resolve conflict. They just have sex. Right? Yes.
[01:15:45] Dr. Nicole: The tension.
[01:15:46] Aaron: Um, yeah. They just release the tension that way, you know, and they're also the closest living relatives to humans, um, that we know of. Right. I think, I think they're, they're closer than chimpanzees.
Maybe. Maybe like. I might be wrong on that. I, chimpanzees might be the closest, but Yeah,
[01:16:04] Dr. Nicole: I hear you. I hear you. And this is where I was fascinated by the book, untrue by Wednesday, Martin, which gets into women's desire because, um, I really gotta get into, back into that book and find the researcher of the study that ran this so that I could bring them on the show.
Because it was a discussion about these monkeys that they were watching. I think it was MCC cs. Um, and so they were in this cage setup, and within the smaller cage setup, the women monkeys were often mounted by the men. Um, and then they decided to build like a bigger cage where they could have more space to roam, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Mm-hmm.
[01:16:39] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[01:16:39] Dr. Nicole: And then the women monkeys were much more like mounting and aggressive and demanding of sex. But what was interesting was that at a certain amount of time, they actually got bored and stopped having sex. Or just, we don't even have to say bored, we can just say they just stopped having sex.
And so the researchers were curious, like, what if we put some new monkeys into the cage? Right. So then they started fucking again. Okay. Yeah. Right. And so it's fascinating that like women historically have not cheated as much of as men until financial freedom. And then things started really changing when you look at the seventies and women's getting credit cards and stuff like that, because the expansiveness was like, oh, there's so much more that we can do without being killed and like not being able to survive under capitalism.
Right. And so it's like, oh, we are just scratching the surface of having to rewrite history and our concepts of psychology because so much of this has been under the lens of white men, particularly within the white Western lens for the last 200 years. And so there is, we are just like scratching the surface of unpacking so much of this.
Yeah. And the, the wild part is that it's all about narratives, right? Right. Because that monkey poof, like they're, they're fucking, and then for us, and at least in my past consciousness and a lot of America, there's a three letter word that challenges all of this, and it's God. Some people will never do this because of a three letter word that holds so much significance in your narrative that God forbid, quite literally, that you ever have sex with more than one person in your entire life, right?
And so it's right. It's so important that we have new narratives of what is possible, because that's where we get our imagination going. And so when someone like you trusts me to come onto the show and says, here's my life. This is what I do, this is what it looks like. You are opening up a world for someone who has never heard that before and goes, what?
That's possible. That's possible. And that's how we start to get this ball moving. And so I really appreciate you coming onto the show today and being so vulnerable with everything that you've experienced to get to the consciousness that you currently have and be here today.
[01:18:44] Aaron: I really appreciate it. I, I feel very honored.
Yeah. So thank, thank you so much. And it's very, it's a humbling experience for sure.
[01:18:51] Dr. Nicole: Oh, of course, of course. Such a joy. Well, as we come towards the end of our time, I'll take a deep breath with you here
and then I'll ask the last question that I ask every guest on the show, and that is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal? Ooh, that's a good one. I know, I know, I know. Anywhere. Okay. Anywhere.
[01:19:18] Aaron: Okay. Um. I think early on I was worried that like, my friends would see me with like one person at like a bar or something like that, and then see me with another person.
Oh my God. That was like, uh, another place, double thing. It was just like worried that there was going to be this weird gossip that was going around. Yep. Um, but then I realized that most people just don't care.
Yeah. Like, and if they care, like you probably don't want 'em in your life, right? Like if they care that deeply about that thing. Right. Right. Now I live in a city, so like, maybe this matters more if you live in a small town or something like that. Like I, I, I can empathize if you feel that way. Uh, but even seeing friends and then introducing them to one partner and then introducing 'em to a different one, and maybe they didn't know I was Polly or something like that.
I got over that awkwardness very quickly. Mm. Mm-hmm. That, that feeling of, oh, what are other people going to think of my lifestyle? Yeah. Because it's not worth it to dwell on what other people think about you that much. Yeah. Like it, and honestly, they're probably not really thinking about you that much.
Right, right. Or relatively, I mean, for better or worse, people are relatively self-absorbed. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. They're into their own thing. They're dealing with their own thing. If they're not dealing with their own thing, they probably sh should be.
[01:20:46] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.
[01:20:47] Aaron: Or something like, 'cause it's not, you know, they're not being a good neighbor, I think.
Sure.
[01:20:53] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.
[01:20:53] Aaron: But that's the way that I feel about it. Uh, maybe you should just be like a good neighbor to one another. You know, maybe you should just like, not really care, you know, uh, whether somebody has a gay relationship. Yeah, that lives next to you. Like why is that your problem? Why is it a problem?
[01:21:11] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah,
[01:21:13] Aaron: yeah. You know, maybe you should like mind your own business.
[01:21:17] Dr. Nicole: Right, right, right, right. So normalizing authenticity, the ability to be your authentic self, to not take it personally when other people are on their own journey, because the things that produce such a strong reaction and others are the things that they're afraid of inside themselves.
Right, exactly. And so when you see that strong reaction, you say, wow, okay, like I've got, you know, I wish you the best. I might take a step back. Right, exactly. And for myself, like where I came from, I was condemning homosexuals left and right. Which is funny when you decide you, when you later. Figure out like, wow, I, I was really gay and I, I was feeling things in like even third grade about that and I couldn't even process it, right?
Like watching films mean like, wow. Um, and so you can wonder why I was the one in class who immediately raised their hand and said, I will say homosexuals are sinners. Immediately I'll choose that debate topic in class. And literally in bible class, it was a topic. I chose that one and debated it like. Why was I so passionate?
Ah, what a good question.
[01:22:17] Aaron: Yeah. Right. You know why
[01:22:22] Dr. Nicole: exactly. I feel that it's like, I feel that it's like, wow, like have some compassion for those people. They got. I mean, I need to be accountable for the harm that I was causing. Absolutely. But like to take a step back from those people and say, wow, I wish them the best on their journey.
'cause they're going through it, hopefully gives us all a little bit more peace at night to not take it personally because they're they're going through it themselves. Yeah,
[01:22:45] Aaron: yeah. Yeah. And like, I think like there is a moment where you just have to be like, that seems like a you problem. Yeah. Right. You react strong.
Gotta tell, just react. Just like, you know, uh, you know, I think, I think maybe, and, you know, I, I think that's kind of where I landed with my mom, you know? Sure. Until she sort of like accepted the situation, it was just sort of like, okay, so. If you're, if you're like, if you really think I'm gonna like find the, the one right.
It seems like a you problem. Hmm. It's not, not, it's not a me problem.
[01:23:17] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, it was such a joy to have you on the podcast today. Again, thank you, Erin, for being so vulnerable and so trusting of me to hold this space. I'm, I'm truly honored anytime someone takes up the call to have this conversation with me.
So thank you.
[01:23:34] Aaron: Yeah. Thank you for having it. I, I really appreciate it. Love talking to you.
[01:23:41] Dr. Nicole: If you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast. And head on over to Modern Anarchy podcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I wanna thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.
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