234. 90 Million Are Ready to Cheat on Ashley Madison? with Paul Keable

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole. On today's episode, we have Paul join us for a conversation all about non monogamy and the future of modern relationships. Together we talk about the difficulty with defining infidelity. How women and Afab folks grow, tired of monogamy faster than men, and liberating our desires. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy.

I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Dr. Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, author of the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and founder of the Pleasure Practice supporting Individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships.

Dear listener. Wow. What an episode? 90 million. 90 million. And growing on Ashley Medicine. Wow. You know, I'm all here for consent. I'm all here for conversations about non-monogamy and doing it with the consent of all parties available. And we live in a world that really doesn't fund a lot of research on sex, and definitely is not funding enough research on infidelity.

A space like Ashley Madison has the capital to be able to do this and the desire. Right. And so it was so powerful to connect with Paul and actually. Hear about a lot of the ongoing research they have in this space because we truly don't have enough of this and learning how women grow. Tired of monogamy faster than men, right?

Like we've talked about that in the podcast. I've known this, right? We talk about this a lot, but hearing it from more experts in the field, I just hope it sinks in every time to release whatever societal expectations have been on us. And even hearing about how men on the site, most of them in the research reported looking for emotional connection, right?

There's so much here to unlearn about gender roles and expectations and society, and I'm just really excited to be hosting conversations like this to be able to have a platform where we can talk about this because there's a lot of healing work to do and a lot of liberation, pulling our sexuality out of the shadows and into the light, and I can confidently promise you that I'll be here in this space doing this work this every Wednesday with you.

Dear listener.

Ah. Alright, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and free resources@modernanarchypodcast.com. And I wanna say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters. You are supporting the long-term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content free and accessible to all people.

So thank you. And with that dear listener, please know that I am sending you all my love and let's tune in to today's episode.

Dear Listener, there's a space already waiting for you where you are invited to let go of every old script about s. And relationships and begin living a life rooted in your pleasure, empowerment, and deep alignment. I'm Dr. Nicole, and this is your invitation to the Pleasure Liberation Groups, a transformative, educational, and deeply immersive experience designed for visionary individuals like you.

Together we'll gather in community to explore desire, expand relational wisdom, and embody the lives we're here to lead. Each session is woven with practices, teachings, and the kind of connection that makes real. Formation possible, and I'll be right there with you. Guiding the process with an embodied curriculum that supports both personal and collective liberation.

This is your invitation into the next chapter of your erotic evolution. Say yes to your pleasure and visit modern anarchy podcast.com/pleasure practice to apply.

So the first question that I ask every guest is, how would you like to introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:05:23] Paul: Well, hello everyone. My name's Paul Keebel. I am the Chief Strategy Officer at Ashley Madison. What that really means is I'm a person who's vastly interested in modern relationships, the impact of non-monogamy, whether disclosed or undisclosed.

What that means for the future of marriage relationships and just culture in general.

[00:05:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm so excited to be able to talk to you about all of this today. It was fun to, uh, check in with my community. Have you heard of Ashley Madison? Have you And I did get a range of results.

[00:06:00] Paul: Mm-hmm. I think, you know, depending on your age spectrum, you know, people in the early twenties might have missed out on some of our, uh, events from our past, which I'm sure we'll delve into.

Yeah. But people north of 40 are probably gonna be very aware of us. There's something about our brand that's really interesting and unique from a cultural standpoint, um, particularly for Gen Xers and millennials. Did you know there's a full episode of The Simpsons dedicated to Ashley Madison?

[00:06:31] Dr. Nicole: Really? No, I did not.

[00:06:32] Paul: Marge is interested in cheating on Homer, and she signs up to sassy madison.com.

[00:06:38] Dr. Nicole: Amazing. Wow. I did not, I'll have to go find that reference now. I mean, 80 million users is a lot of people around the world.

[00:06:49] Paul: We've had, we've signed up hundreds of thousands of, of members a a month. We're actually well over 90 million members now having joined since we've launched.

And it's the full ranging gambit of ages, ethnicities, cultures, religions, economic level in a really interesting way where one of the few truly global dating apps, because traditional dating can vary quite dramatically from culture to culture. I mean, I was in India in October, you know, arranged marriages are still very much Yeah.

A normal part of the culture there. Yes. Whereas infidelity is exactly the same around the globe. There really is only one or two places where a service like ours. Doesn't necessarily garner a lot of interest or intention places like France, because infidelity is already baked into the culture. The literal term, Pieter, is the idea of having a place where I can meet with my, you know, intimate partner outside of my marriage for the purposes of discretion, and it was well baked into that culture for generations on.

Male and female side. And so they don't need necessarily an app for that. Whereas the rest of the world is very happy to have, uh, one like ours.

[00:08:07] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's so interesting because, you know, as a psychotherapist, I think about research and the ways that if you're trying to survey people in this, people are often reluctant to want to disclose their desire to cheat on a partner.

Right. And so we don't have really good data on that because who wants to check the box? Yes, I do want to cheat. Right. When you, you know, people, no, I would never. Right. So I think it's really interesting how your platform serves as, you know, some sense of cultural data in that sense of how many people are signing up for this.

As like you're saying too, in certain cultures around the world currently, there's less of a draw for this because of their ideology there. Right. That's data that we just don't even have because of the reluctance of, you know, research. In the ways that people don't wanna disclose.

[00:08:55] Paul: Yeah, it's interesting.

It's actually one of the favorite parts of my job. So I've been with the organization for more than 10 years now, and just as you said, it's infidelity is a very difficult subject matter to research because general pop research, general pop surveys are not going to provide a lot of useful data because people lie.

Exactly. They lie to themselves about the subject matter. So whereas if you've already signed up to Ashley Madison, you sort of already indicate, okay, I'm interested in this space. So we have academics from universities all over the, the country and the world who have come to us to delve into the, the various aspects of infidelity because we are one of the more unique sources for that information.

And we think it's very helpful at the, as well as being the world's largest married dating, you know, app. We're also the world's largest marriage counseling service because if you don't want your spouse to cheat on you. Listen to me and, and my, my colleagues as to why people join. What are they actually looking for versus what you think they're looking for.

So you could avoid those pitfalls within your relationship.

[00:09:59] Dr. Nicole: Mm. I mean, I, I'm curious already what you have to say there. 'cause, you know, I think we all have multiple relationships and I see it as more of a lens of like deconstructing, internalized purity culture and the restrictions on our sexual liberation.

Right. So I see it maybe in a bit of a different lens than like prevention, but I'm curious what you have to say about it.

[00:10:19] Paul: Well, yeah, we love the different perspectives on things because, you know, at a starting point, if you look at, you know, infidelity, it's an interesting concept because if I was to go sleep with somebody who's not my wife when I was married mm-hmm.

Um, that ubiquitously would be considered cheating around the world. What happens if I go to dinner with a woman who's not? My wife is that cheap. What happens if I go to a strip club without my wife? What happens if I masturbate or watch pornography? Right? So many people consider every single one of those acts a form of cheating.

But we don't discuss those aspects. We don't sit down at the altar or prior to the altar and lay out, here are my rules of what I consider cheating. And so many of us have a, a viewpoint in our heads and we don't sit down to it. And it creates a lot of problems getting into relationships as the years progress.

[00:11:13] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. I mean, emotional cheating, right? The concept that you can't have a deeper emotional connection with another human, which becomes particularly challenging when you're queer and attracted to all genders, because then it's like, oh, I can't have any, any friends. Oh, damn. Right. Like it becomes very clear and apparent once you kind of step into a queer space how unfeasible that is.

Right. But you're, you're so right in terms of needing to define, if you are practicing sexual fidelity, to define where that is. Especially even culturally, right? Like a kiss on the cheek in some cultures is totally fine. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Forbidden could be cheating in America or in some cultures, even just any touch and contact is absolutely forbidden, right?

Like a hug or even a handshake is not okay between opposite genders. Right? And so I think it's so important to reflect on your personal decisions there when you are constructing a relationship with fidelity of, of what is that for you? And like you're saying, so many people never get into the nitty gritty of that and then years later find really difficult problems come up because of that lack of uh, conversation.

[00:12:18] Paul: Absolutely. One of the other things that I find interesting, particularly, um, and this is I think primarily unique to America, is the Graham rule. I'm not sure if you're familiar with this. No, no. Yeah. So Billy Graham, the evangelical pastor.

[00:12:31] Dr. Nicole: Oh, sure.

[00:12:32] Paul: Yes. So you can imagine where this is going. And your former vice president followed this rule based on reports that I've seen that a married man cannot be alone in a room with a, with a woman who's not his wife.

[00:12:43] Dr. Nicole: Well, right.

[00:12:44] Paul: Even in a business setting. In a business setting. Now, one that's a wildly misogynistic, uh, rule in my mind 'cause it casts the female as the, you know, an evil mm-hmm. That she would tempt me and I as a man have no control over my actions once that temptress is, is near me. And it's a ludicrous, uh, idea in my personal opinion, but it really is something that a lot of people do listen to.

And you, you know, we're, again, I'm in Canada. We're watching our, our southern neighbors move decidedly culturally to the right and. For those who are participating in a more open style relationship or even a secretive relationship, there's some very scary, you know, initiatives that are being pursued potentially, and, and we have to be very cognizant of what that means.

[00:13:35] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, I mean, I'll, I'll let you in. And many of the listeners of the show know my history and background that I grew up in purity culture. And so I had a purity ring and I was one of those people that was never alone in a room with a man because that was too tempting, right? And the flesh would just succumb to both of us, and we would just crumble in sexual erotic play, right, or whatever the devil would come for me.

So I am definitely one of those people, like I was raised in that and fully believed that, I think, which is part of, you know, what has made my journey so fascinating to go from that space to the other and to still have family. My mom is Mormon, my sister. Like I have such close connections to people who exist in that world and I no longer do.

And so I think that paradigm shift to walk through all those consciousnesses is, is quite a journey. And so, yes, I guess what you're saying about that rule of the forbiddenness, absolutely.

[00:14:31] Paul: Yeah. Well the more you tell people they can't do something unambiguously and anybody who's a parent knows this, right?

You tell your kid they can't do something's the one and only thing I'm going to do. I'm gonna make it my life's mission to do that very, very thing. And it's interesting, we over index significantly on a membership in Utah, and I don't think that's a coincidence.

[00:14:52] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Say more that that is the more face say more.

I mean, I see the connection right there, but for the listener who does not, do you wanna connect those dots?

[00:15:03] Paul: Well, you know, there obviously there's a, there's a, a history to the church of latter day saints and polygamy. Yeah. But I don't think it's actually connected to that. I think there is an potentially some of that.

I think it's more of the, uh, the, the very strict upbringing, as you said, that purity culture that. Exists within that movement or that religion and that culture more specifically that makes it taboo sex and sexuality. And we live in a world where it's omnipresent. Like there's never a time where you really can turn off the visuals and the audio as it relates to things of a sexual nature, even if that's not what you're looking for.

Every, every TV show that we love is popular movie has infidelity in it. And so we're being told it's horrible. Yet it's one of the most popular subject matters out there. So how can both of those things be true? Well, you need to go investigate this clearly. And I think a lot of people find out, you know, particularly as they, you know, get a little bit older into their relationships and they start to understand their bodies, they understand, you know, different sexual dynamics and they realize they're missing out on something.

And it actually, I think to a degree. Goes to some of the research, uh, we did with the University of Missouri, a woman named Dr. Alicia Walker, who's a professor there. She wanted to really get into what are the motivations for infidelity based on gender? Why do women cheat? Wanna mention we have this idea culturally and from an entertainment perspective, that is always the powerful lustful man who just wants to acquire as many beautiful young women in his bed as possible.

[00:16:39] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:39] Paul: And for women, they're emotional and they're needy and they need, you know, that, that, that loving affection, uh, aspect. So it's very much a mental state. And she wanted to, you know, either prove or disprove these sort of concepts. And here's the interesting thing. 80% of the women in this research on Ashley Madison were cheating because they were in a sexless or orgasms marriage.

And what was fascinating, as she delved into these, uh, members in their stories, she would talk to some of them. They would tell her that. They love their partner, they love their life, their family, and they had no desire to dissolve this, but nor were they willing to live in a world where their sexual satisfaction was set aside.

And many of them would have the conversations with their partners, and they were either, either unable to or unwilling to fulfill her needs. And so they outsource their intimate needs to Ashley Madison to maintain their primary relationship. And people get upset at this, and I can understand why. But here's the thing.

You're asking this woman to either compromise on her sexual satisfaction and age, let's say for sake of argument 40, that's a really long sexual life to just give up on joy and happiness. And the alternative, you know, culture tells us, well, if you're unsatisfied with your partner and they, you can't address it or fix it, then you have to divorce.

Well, that's costly, that's expensive. That has a huge impact. Particularly you have children. And if I love the person and you know, I can get what I need elsewhere, isn't that the better option? That is probably a really good argument for polyamory.

[00:18:15] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:18:15] Paul: But until, until we can get to a stage where people embrace that in much larger numbers, I think Ashley Madison's gonna have a role.

But here's the thing that makes people very uncomfortable. I think the majority of men in the study were seeking emotional validation.

[00:18:30] Dr. Nicole: Hmm.

[00:18:32] Paul: And here is something I, I, I've come to see the truth in this. Men, we are raised, particularly in Western culture, to be stoic. Yeah. To suppress our emotions. We are told, we are the providers, you know, of the house.

We are the man of the house, and we are not to allow these things to impact us. And so we live in a world where when we see a woman, we'll say, oh Nicole, your hair looks fantastic. Oh, that dress looks really nice on you. Those types of aesthetical or aesthetic compliments are not necessarily part of the culture towards men.

You know, we rarely get those, oh, that, that haircut looks very nicely. Oh, that shirt looks sexy. So I tell females in, in who are in relationships, if you want your man to be, you know, feel loved, it's not just the sex that he is wants the physical interaction. He wants to hear words of affirmation from you tell him, Hey, your butt looks nice in that gene, in those genes.

You look really nice in that shirt. And it seems counterintuitive that men would desire this, but we're very similar in our wants and needs.

[00:19:31] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:31] Paul: And so while that relationship, those affairs for men still will manifest in a physical way, but ultimately the underlying drive and motivation for them is to feel, desire, to feel wanted.

So it's the flip of what everybody thinks.

[00:19:45] Dr. Nicole: Sure. Absolutely. I mean, that makes so much sense to me. You know, the ways that you're saying men are individualistic, right? They're completely fine on their own, right? Where women are much more relational, at least in our culture, like that, is taught to them. Um, and so they therefore enact that.

And men, you know, it's like you tell the little boy man up, you know, that scrapes his knee on the playground, right? So from a young age, we get taught this. Um, I think inherently we're all relational regardless of your gender, right? But this is the, you know, the cultural stereotypes that we live in. And then therefore, what ends up happening is a lot of men live in relationships, whether or not seen, even in the, um, quote unquote guy time, right?

It's watching. If you think about stereotypically it's watching stor, uh, sports, playing this video game, all this sorts of stuff, which is quality time, but not a lot of intimacy of, hi, I see you friend and you're going through this. Wow, that sounds really difficult. And so they're lacking a lot of that emotional connection.

And I, I remember being in my feminist class and we were talking about this and I was like, well, maybe men are just. Fine. When they're like, well actually the suicide rates of men are dra drastically higher, right? And so, yes, I think that overall men in our culture are really lacking deep, fulfilling emotional relationships.

And so it makes that data makes so much sense to me. And I, um, read Untrue by Wednesday. Martin, have you heard of that book, right? I know Wednesday, yes. Yeah. Great. So I'll clue in the listeners, um, really interesting book. Uh, she had mentioned this one research study with, I think it was a type of monkey, I'm not gonna macka, I don't even know how to pronounce the monkey, but it was a type of monkey close, close in relation to us, right?

And um, there was a researcher where, yeah, they had put the monkeys in a cage and it was a smaller cage and the male monkeys were mounting the females. And the females were very passive, yada yada. Right? They decided, what if we expanded the cage and gave much more space and researched the monkeys like that.

And in that cage, the females were much more, um, as assertive and, and pursuing the sex on their own. But after a certain amount of time. The female monkeys got bored and stopped having sex. So the researchers thought, wow, what if we add in some new male monkeys? The second they added in new male monkeys, the females were having sex again.

Right? Okay. Wow. What an interesting take for the female side, which has been taught for years that no, you just want one person to emotionally fulfill you and to be your secure anchor. I don't know. Look at this research that we're seeing, right? Diversity seems to be rather exciting for females, and of course we're not monkeys, and I think what we're saying to that earlier is because monkeys don't stop doing things for a three letter word called God, okay, we, this culture will go GOD.

Wow. I'm actually never gonna have sex my whole life. For that three letter word, you know, with respect to what that means to people. But of course, we can't translate the research from monkeys directly to humans because of all of the cultural variables around that. But that being said, I think there's a lot to say in that research of diversity, and I'll stand for that any day that I love my people.

I love my people, but I need diversity in my sexual activity.

[00:22:49] Paul: Yeah, no, I think, and what's fascinating is that I think Wednesday did talk about the fact that women tired of monogamy far quicker than this. Yes, yes. If you do research and you ask couples who have come to polyamory or open type relationships later in life, almost.

Always, or the vast majority is going to be a female led exercise.

[00:23:12] Dr. Nicole: I know,

[00:23:12] Paul: and again, people think it's the men who are like, oh, I just wanna have as much sex as I possibly can. That's not what's happening. Women get very easily, not easy, sorry, I should rephrase that. Women tire of monogamy quicker than men do.

[00:23:25] Dr. Nicole: I know.

[00:23:25] Paul: And the reality is, if you sit back and look at it, marriage is in the modern world, asking one person to be my lover, my financial partner, my co-parent, my best friend, my social partner, my, my, you know, chores partner. That is an enormous burden for one person to hold on to for 40, 50, 60 years. And interestingly, particularly when you look at parts of America where the marital age is much younger.

[00:23:56] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:23:58] Paul: And generally speaking, the education is abysmal at best. Those are the people who are more likely than not, who are going to explore infidelity at some point in their relationships because curiosity 'cause of boredom, and because they come to realize there's so much more out there in getting married, married at 24, 25, and missing out on their exploratory years and finding out what really makes them tick.

Because one of the most fascinating things I I, I read a few years ago, what related to female sexuality and sex is, do you know who Rachel Bilson is? No. Actress. Mm-hmm. She, I think she's, or she, you would know wherever you saw her. She fitted a bunch of stuff. Okay. So she, at one point would've been considered a tier, a actress.

[00:24:38] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:38] Paul: Um, you know, and, and typical Hollywood. She's gorgeous, she's beautiful, she's smart, and she's articulate. And she was on a podcast talking about how she never had an orgasm until she was 30 years old.

[00:24:49] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Heartbreaking.

[00:24:49] Paul: So here is the, a beautiful woman who, you know, has the pick of the litter comparatively for, you know, alpha type males as it were.

And she had no awareness that. She wasn't really having good sex until suddenly at 30. She did. And that goes to the lack of sexual education as it relates to what is good sex. Number one, just generally what is good sex for a woman, specifically, we don't teach our kids these things. People get freaked out when I say this 'cause I am a parent.

I have two young teenage boys who, you know, roll their eyes constantly at me when I'm talking about these things. But the reality is, don't you want your kids to grow up to be good lovers and to have good sex? Right. If you wanna avoid a lot of the things we're gonna talk about on this episode in terms of infidelity, cheated, all those other things, that's a big driver, particularly in the female side.

And if she doesn't know her body, if she doesn't understand what good sex is, how is she possibly gonna have that? Mm-hmm. And I, listen, I have friends. Who have daughters, and I'll bring this subject matter up to them. And I hear the typical refrain, oh, I hold a shotgun handy just in case that boyfriend shows up at the door.

And I get the joke and I, haha, it's funny, but it really isn't right. 'cause I'm like, don't you want your daughter to be able to do the same things you and your wife do? And they look at me horrified. I'm like, then why are you doing that to your wife? And then like the, the light bulb goes on and they're like, shut up Paul.

We don't wanna talk to you anymore. Yeah. Because it's a realization of, oh wait a minute, what am I, am I burdening my children with the shame that I carried around sex and intimacy? We shouldn't do that. Mm-hmm. But society, particularly, again, in America is really, really not ready for that. Yes. And we would much rather control it with purity rings and sign documents promising, you know, virginity to marriage and all sorts of silly RGA world that does not work in any way, shape or form.

[00:26:44] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. People get hurt. People exist in relationships where their pleasure ist centered right at the full extreme, people are really hurt. I do think that all of that is what contributes to rape culture generally in our society. Um, and I remember even just watching a, one of the Netflix documentaries around sex that had talked about rape fantasies being particularly more, um, common within American culture than other cultures.

And we have to look at that and say, why is that a fantasy here that is not consistent around the world and the same rates? Right? I, I understand, you know, the fantasy of that. I understand consensual non-consent play, but when we look at a fantasy like rape, right, and it being more common in America. Than other countries around the world.

We have ing to talk about that. Yeah. It was in one of the Netflix documentaries about sex. I'll have to find it and include it in the show notes, but it was jarring for me to see that. 'cause I think as a researcher you have to like unpack where that's coming from. And I think it's coming back to all the stuff that you're saying right now.

This fear around, talking about this, the taboo, the taboo, the taboo, as well as all of the problems we talked about relationally of not getting our needs met and being seen in that. So we add, you know, I, I'm working right now in community mental health. I'm working with like court mandated folks right now with anger.

And I just, you see the lack of, uh, skills really in our country, let alone sex, but just like emotional health in general. Um, and so all of that comes together. And so the more that we can have these conversations and bring it into the light, and when you're educating your children, you are changing in that future.

I've, I've read research that talked about masturbation, um, starting between the ages of. Two to six years old. A lot of people are not ready to have that kind of conversation with their kids, but they damn well should be because that is a normal age to start exploring your body and being curious about the pleasure that is possible.

And so people really gotta loosen up to this because it is a part of how we're gonna get to this other future where we can have open communications and people are not getting hurt and we can have more pleasure, more orgasm, more connection, more love, and all these things.

[00:28:49] Paul: Absolutely. But I'll tell you on a positive note.

Yeah. You know, there's a lot of research out there that shows that, or says at least that the current Gen Z population or generation is having far less sex than its previous cohorts. Sure. I don't believe this.

[00:29:04] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:04] Paul: And I, I'll tell you why I don't believe it. The internet has changed things so dramatically.

I'm Gen X, so I'm old. Mm-hmm. And growing up the idea of having sex in high school was like the be all, end, all the pressure to do it. But it also was the same, you know, dichotomy where the females were SLT that they did and you know, prudes that they didn't. So there was a no win situation and everybody was talking about it, but I don't really believe very many of us were actually doing it.

[00:29:32] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:29:32] Paul: And there was no way to prove these things. But now that everything's online, people are talking about things more openly and sex and sexuality or subject matters that kids are becoming more aware of earlier, but also more comfortable talking about they have hooed some of the shame and guilt associated with the subject matter saying, I don't have the same judgments.

And a good example was this. I remember my son came home in grade six. Well he was what, 12 years old? And he said to me, dad, well so and so came out as bi today, today. One of his male friends. And I said, oh, interesting. And and how did that go? He goes, oh, it just went dad. What do you mean? Yeah, exactly. Well, and and, and it was such, it was such an amazing moment as, as a dad for me, because my kids were like, yeah, he's fine.

He's sharing information with me. So he is comfortable. Yay. But there was no judgment, guilt. There was no follow on to, there was nothing bad that happened about this. I can't even imagine, you know, somebody in my high school, nevermind grade six coming out as gay, nevermind I Right. And the abuse that poor person would've taken.

Yeah. Even just being assumed gay in high school, we all knew who those people were. 'cause they were still figuring out their, their identity and their sexuality, but the judgment was harsh.

[00:30:42] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:42] Paul: And these kids are saying, you know what? I'm not gonna carry the guilt and shame of, I am interested in sex, I'm interested in a variety of different sexual things, but I'm not feeling the pressure to do as much as you might have felt.

Mm-hmm. So they're gonna do a lot more different things and in a variety of ways that make me parents today uncomfortable. It shouldn't, as long as you're having good conversation, but they're not gonna have the same pressure to, you know, succumb to someone else's desires. 'cause they understand consent, they understand desire, they understand the, the options avail to 'em because there's so much more information.

So the ones who are researching, they're going out there. So I don't think they're necessarily having less, I think they're having better sex.

[00:31:20] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:31:21] Paul: I think they're having more varied sex and I think it's a good thing and parents shouldn't be afraid of it. Yes. Let's talk about consent, but yes, let's talk about safe sex, but let's also talk about what's good sex and, and how to balance those things off.

And I think it leads to a brighter future.

[00:31:37] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah. The more conversations. Absolutely. And how do we define sex? Right. That's always my question. I think Dr. Julianne Huser had mentioned this research when we recorded and I was talking to her about like, what is sex as masturbation considered sex.

You know what I mean? Because Yeah. In our modern day and age, I got. A magic wand, some great content, like is that falling into that research data? Is it just partnered? And where does queer sex fall into? Like how do they define, you know, sex in that sense? Because I would imagine, based on everything you're saying too, that our current culture has a wider variety of what sex can be to us, then the traditional penis and vagina situation.

Right. So I think there's much more fluidity. And when I did my dissertation, there was very little research on, uh, the younger generations. There's only like a u gov study, you know, like not like a doc. I, I know this is, this is what we got right now. But it was saying that the, like 40% of the younger generations are interested in non-monogamous relationships to some degree, which is drastic from the generations prior.

And so there is this really big cultural shift that is happening. And I think we just lack the language and the emotional skills on how to do it. In our culture particularly.

[00:32:50] Paul: Yeah. Well, if you think about it, so my father's generation, the baby boomers, they lived in a world where premarital sex was very much taboo.

It was frowned upon. Now I'm not, I'm convinced they were all still doing it. Sure. But nonetheless, culturally speaking, it was very taboo. Gen X, not just acceptable, it was almost, at least for millennials now, it was a prerequisite who wants to like, you know, uh, train a rookie as part of their, their marriage?

We wanna go up there and have those disparities and it's, and, and it's acceptable. And the shift from understanding that premarital sex is okay to polyamory is okay, is not that big of a leap. So it doesn't surprise me that this younger generation is saying, oh yeah, I'm interested in different types of relation dynamics.

So again, my generation, you know, that sex in the city was a huge right sort of moment where these independent, you know, yeah. Uh, you know, women were leading very different sex lives and very openly uniform. The extreme of carry. To, to, you know, the more prudish, I can't remember Samantha, her character Samantha Samantha's the extreme.

Samantha's the extreme,

[00:33:59] Dr. Nicole: yeah, yeah,

[00:34:00] Paul: right. Sorry. You're right. I love Samantha the extreme. Samantha was the extreme and the brunette. Charlotte. Charlotte. Charlotte.

[00:34:08] Dr. Nicole: I love that show. I feel like I'm embodying it with the podcast.

[00:34:10] Paul: You know, there you go. It's, Charlotte was the other, but they were all still having premarital sex in different ways to go from, hey, let's, it's totally cool that you and I are, are, are dating, we're having sex with other people, which more we're gonna commit to a fidelity of sex for the next 40 years.

That's like a huge sort of promise and it's kind of absurd to a degree if you think about it. And so I think Gen Z is looking this saying, okay, the leap from premarital sex is okay to polyamory being okay. It's not that big of a jump. And I think we're going to see increasingly monogamy go under different changes as this generation.

Decides how they want their relationships to look and feel. And Dr. Tammy Nelson, who is a sex therapist and a marriage therapist that we work with, she has a really cool concept called a monogamy contract. And she advocates that if you're in a committed relationship, married or long term, that you renew your monogamy contract every five years.

What does our monogamy mean to us for the next five years? Because monogamy at 25 is dramatically different at 40 and at 50 and at 60 because my needs, desires, wants change. And this isn't just specifically boiling down to purely sex or intimacy. There's a range of subject matters that you could, you know, decide that you wanna put into your monogamy contract.

And the more you talk about these things, the more you open yourself up to experiences, the more you open yourself up to opportunities, the better and the deeper your relationship can go. Is it uncomfortable, deeply? Is it the potential for your partner to say, you know what, Paul? I really. Appreciate that you're open with me, but I'm not gonna do that thing you wanna do.

I'm not going to participate in that. But if we can get to a point where you're comfortable being told no without the shame and guilt, that's for the better. Because otherwise you're gonna desire, the more you think about it without divulging that desire, that thought, that interest, it's going to build, it's going to increase.

Mm-hmm. And then you're gonna do it in a way that's going to compromise your own ethics potentially. Mm-hmm. And then you might ruin a potentially amazing relationship where maybe your partner was into that and you had no idea because you're so afraid. Mm. And that's the interesting thing, A lot of, uh, feedback I get from people, the negative feedback around, um, you know, how dare you run an infidelity based dating app is, you know, how can you possibly help these people cheat?

Otherwise, you know, without us, they're still gonna do it, but they're gonna do it in horrible ways. They're probably gonna do it in the office. They're gonna do it with potentially someone in their social circles and increase their chance of getting caught. And so we're trying to get people to outlet to really maintain their primary relationship and the outcome from affairs are not exactly what people expect them to do necessarily.

[00:36:52] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, I think in an ideal world, we are all talking about it openly and we're all communicating and all of that in our current cultural context. It's very different, difficult for a lot of people right now. And so I see the position that you're sitting in right now is giving that outlet to people.

I ideally, in a world, we are all communicating about it, but that's just not the world that we live in right now, particularly for older generations. And so you are standing in that space. For me, I, I'm curious, you know, about the, the things that get in the way of having that conversation, Hey, I wanna open our marriage.

Right. I think about the cultural sh uh, narratives of what it means, right? In, in my past consciousness where I was gonna marry one person, have sex with one person for the rest of my life, that would feel like the most jarring comment that I would've ever heard from my partner because it meant that I was not enough.

That our love was a failure. That I am a failure. Oh my God. And so I would love to pick apart some of the, the messiness of the web that gets in the way of people actually naming this desire, because I have multiple lovers. Shit. We travel together, you know what I mean? Like we, it's like one step above kitchen table in my opinion.

You know what I mean? And so it's like how do we get that level of communication and openness and support and liberation if that's what people want, right? And clearly there are 80 million people who want this world. Right. How do we get that? Um, I'm curious what your thoughts are.

[00:38:18] Paul: Yeah, it's, it's, you know, to me it goes back to, you know, sex education, intimacy, education, relationship, education to children.

Because the more open we are as a society in terms of what sex is, it isn't. So, for example, I've talked to my kids 'cause I have boys and I, you know, and I remember, this is years ago, I said to him, I know you have seen pornography. I'm not gonna ask you what you've seen. I'm not gonna ask how you got there because it's ubiquitous.

I think the average age is around 12 or 11 for boys see pornography. And I, I, quite surprisingly, I think that's, I think that's a little old. I think it's probably a lot earlier. Mm-hmm. And I would sit down and say, listen, you're going to see some stuff. Some people might be very, very jarm. I said, try to imagine this.

You watch all your favorite Marvel movies, right? A lot of these stunts they do are real people doing real stunts. You're seeing them physically do that, but you recognize that that's not real life. That's not what, you're not gonna go off and jump off that building 'cause you know bad things are going to happen to you.

So the scenes you're watching in a pornographic movie, yes, there are two re people doing that scene, but here's the reality, it's not particularly comfortable. It's probably not widely enjoyable for either one, quite frankly, but almost certainly not for the woman. And that isn't likely how your first, you know, sexual escapades are gonna go.

So don't try some of these advanced level, you know, things you see or don't even think that they're what's appropriate for you. It doesn't mean it's bad. There's actually a great, uh, woman if you've never, you know, interviewed her, you should probably track her down. Her name's Cindy Gall. And

[00:39:50] Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah, I have, I make love not porn.

We've talked Hell yeah.

[00:39:53] Paul: Yeah. So I, I love Cindy. I've talked to her many times in the past and, you know, for the, your listeners who, who hadn't heard that episode, Cindy Gal is a woman who prefers, you know, relationships, much younger men. Yep. And she's very open about this. And she actually had used one of our, our, our sites Cougar, like previously.

And as she started dating these younger guys, some of them were trying to introduce, you know, porn back moves to her in the bedroom. And she was like, hold on guys. I, I know you've seen that music. That's normal. That's not the way it works. And it spurred a, an idea in her head that, you know, sex education needs to change.

So she launched a business called Make Love Not Porn. Mm-hmm. Where quote unquote regular people film their love making and then upload it for others to view and rent. And the point of it is, is to show what regular sex actually looks. And she and her tagline to the site is brilliant. It's pro porn, pro sex, pro knowing the difference.

Mm-hmm. And I think to your question again is, you know, how do we get people. Comfortable. Well, the more you talk about it earlier, and again, age appropriate stuff, right? The more comfortable people are and the less shame and guilt. 'cause I think the shame and the guilt and the fear related to sexual interest and desire is what is the main blocker to any conversation.

Not just can we open a relationship? Because I think opening our relationship is a very advanced level type conversation. But think about this, Hey, what about putting on lingerie? Hey, what about, you know, this sexposition or that sex position? What about watching pornography together? People are terrified to approach the partner, not because necessarily they're afraid of being judged.

Well, I think it's a big part of it. They're afraid. Be afraid told no. Mm-hmm. They're afraid of their partners thinking That's crazy. Why would only weird people would wanna do that? Mm. And. That is a huge block that people ne need to get over and listen outside of, you know, some pretty extreme, you know, illegal and in, in what we all culturally globally will say is bad stuff.

I don't think we need to get into that. Sure. You know, you should be open to your partner's sexual desire. Not necessarily do it just because they wanna do it, but open discuss it and then if it's not something you, you're willing to or interested in doing, let's then talk about what are, what are the, what's behind that desire because maybe there's an alternative that will fit the bill as it were.

But we're in a society where, you know, it's lights out, you know, pull my 90 when you're down, when you're done approach for a lot of people in Western civilization and that is such a horrific way to have a sex life.

[00:42:17] Dr. Nicole: I know it's heartbreaking. It's, it's why I do everything I do, right? Like, ah, my heart, my heart.

Just, I think even to turn the lights on when you're having sex with your partner feels like a lot for people. Like,

[00:42:31] Paul: I mean, there's people out there who are like at 40 and they're talking about separate bedrooms, and I'm like, oh, that's just a relationship killer. That's just, ugh,

[00:42:39] Dr. Nicole: Hey,

[00:42:39] Paul: how do you not want to be in touch with your partner and, and, and, and, and have that closeness?

Maybe that's just a personal opinion.

[00:42:47] Dr. Nicole: Sure, sure. I guess it depends on what that means. 'cause when I think separate bedrooms, I think, wow, yes. I'm with my polyamorous lover and we have two separate bedrooms that are private. So I can take someone to my bed, we have a bed, maybe we share. So maybe there's three bedrooms in here, like a joint one.

My own, you know, like, so when I think separate, I think

[00:43:04] Paul: you're okay. I'm thinking about people are in a traditionally monogamous relationships, having separate professors, you're a little bit more advanced. So I, I, I applaud you and, and your willingness to sort of tell people about it. Because here's the thing, the more you normalize it, what people don't realize is that people are in polyamorous relationships and open relationships.

They're very normal people. Yeah. They're not these, you know, sex addicts who are doing all of those weird kicking shit all the time. Some of the time we are, but not all the time. Right. It's just, we're just open to the opportunities and we know what our body's like and we know how to connect with people.

And it, having an experience with one person doesn't denigrate the experience I've had with the previous person.

[00:43:43] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:43:43] Paul: And that part is really tough for people to get over. Like, how can I do that with her and then do it with someone else tonight and not have an impact? Well called conversation. It's called discussion, it's called setting up boundaries, and polyamory doesn't erode jealousy, doesn't get rid of it.

You still have jealousy within that dynamic. But the difference is, is that you're, you've been trained to talk about it

[00:44:07] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

[00:44:08] Paul: To nullify it by being open about the, your, your, the outcomes and the interest and the desires and all the things you're, you're doing within that dynamic. And that's the fundamental part that people, I think, fail to understand.

[00:44:21] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think the interesting thing is the jealousy will shift. You know, there's often, yeah. This assumption that polyamorous open folks are so obsessed with sex, but like you're saying, sometimes I think it's almost the opposite because you can get to a space where you're like, you know what, like.

I, I don't care what you do with your time, whether you're fucking someone else or you're playing a board game, that's time away from me. Right. And so I process that the same. And so if you're doing this board game group that meets every week, and suddenly you have no time for me, I'm actually more jealous about that than that one.

Mm-hmm. Comment partner that you have sex with once a month. Like suddenly that does not become as jarring as this other d and d group that you're, you know, or whatever it is. Oh, no, it's funny. Well, do you, do

[00:45:03] Paul: you remember the movie? Um, this is 40 Mm. Yes. And Paul Rudd is, um, his, he sneaks off and his wife's convinced he, he's cheating and she tracks him and falls around.

And he was doing fantasy baseball.

[00:45:18] Dr. Nicole: Right? Exactly.

[00:45:20] Paul: But, and, but she had a complete meltdown about it because he was being secretive about it. Mm-hmm. And she, it falls exactly on your point if, if we go away from a partner. So we don't talk about what led us to do those things. It doesn't matter if you're a golf widow, a base fantasy baseball widow, or someone sleeping with somebody else, if you're not talking about it, that's what's gonna lead to those hurt feelings, those feelings of abandonment.

Mm-hmm. And, and I think that's one of the key sort of drivers around these things, is that people feel uncomfortable expressing their emotions, particularly on the male side. And the more we can do to ease our partner's anxiety and concerns around those spaces, give them the space to express those feelings, the opportunities for your relationship to expand, not necessarily to polyamory, but expand in terms of how you connect with one another is really amazing.

[00:46:12] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. And something I'm always talking about in the podcast to normalize it, get more airtime, bring it into the light, is, you know, when we put monogamous people, I mean, currently where we're at with our research is we don't even define the variable of monogamy or non-monogamy In our, a lot of our sexual research, which is a reflection of the paradigm that we live in, as we just assume these people are monogamous.

But when we put people in research studies where they, um, have map their genital response and watch porn, right? People have reactions to other people. So it's like no matter what you practice, you are going to be attracted to other people, right? Like, so there is that baseline attraction that we all have to other people.

Okay? It's a question of what do you wanna do with your time and energy? And then what I come in as a relationship anarchist, is that we all have multiple relationships. We all already have them. Most of us don't fuck more than one person in our current society, right? But like we all have multiple relationships.

Because people are often like, how do you have time for all this? How do you have time for all this? I'm like, well, you have multiple relationships. Look at all of your friends. It's like, what if you started fucking your friends? Right? Like, but it's trying to get that paradigm. People are like, that's so messy.

And like, you're right. Actually in our current cultural setting of the lack of language, the lack of experience, lack of light is pretty messy. But we all. Can move through that as a society and change, right? And so it's like you already have the time. It's just envisioning a different world where sexuality is much more involved in those connections.

If you want it to be right, the possibility is there for folks. Um, but it's really hard to see that when you don't have a community. I think that's been one of the biggest things for me. Like even that me, uh, reference you made to the bedroom, right? Oh, separate bedrooms. I have a handful of people in my community that have separate bedrooms in poly, and so like, that's where my consciousness goes because I have all these friends around me who do this, but I also have the, the privilege of living in Chicago, the amount of clients that reach out to me saying, I'm in the middle of nowhere Iowa.

I'm in the middle of nowhere, Idaho. Where do I find these people? That's where I do refer to websites, right? Because it's like, Hey, get on that dating app. Get on this because. It is hard in your area to find that, and it's hard in the city too, but it's particularly a question of the, the location. Rural settings make this much trickier for folks to ever tap into a community, which is what is needed to transform into a new paradigm.

[00:48:31] Paul: Yeah, and what's interesting about that also is we live in a society that dances around, you know, infidelity through language in ways that people aren't really, I don't think they think about it. The idea of having a work wife or a work husband is normal, but so funny. What's the underlying motivation for that?

We laugh about it and you smile, but that's exactly what we're telling on ourselves, that we do have the capacity to be interested in somebody else, that individual, my work wife, she's fulfilling the need that my wife, wife is not fulfilling, but that we don't consider that infidelity.

[00:49:06] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

[00:49:07] Paul: Right. And I find that fascinating to me. That these terminologies exist to excuse a form of infidelity and normalize it. But meanwhile, we'll taught anybody who, you know, actually performs what we call infidelity and the the contradiction is telling on ourselves. 'cause we do have the capacity.

Listen, it goes also to the term hall pass. You know, again, my generation, we grew up with friends. Ross had, you know, he, when he was dating Rachel, she, you know, he had, I think it was three or four people he could put on his list. And it was, I'm not sure if you ever saw the episode, but he, he scratched off one woman and put on a different celebrity.

And then in walks to the cafe, Isabella Rosa, who was actually on his list, and he explained it doll to her. And it is funny as hell because she's like, too bad. Maybe I would've been interested. Mm-hmm. But we, we, we, we dance around this idea that, well, it's totally fine. My husband has, you know, a celebrity wishlist.

Why does he have a wishlist? What is he looking for? What is missing? So the idea that we desire something beyond our particular primary partner doesn't mean that we don't love and, and care for that partner. It doesn't mean they're not enough. It's just that there's so much else out there. And others can provide things that our primary partner can't, and that's not necessarily negative, but we live in a world that we're still not comfortable coming to terms with those, those, those words, those phrases, those those parts of our culture that we laugh about and we make jokes, but underscore that, underscore the weaknesses of monogamy.

Mm-hmm.

[00:50:38] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. And for my past consciousness and all the listeners that then say, how am I special? If they're fucking other people, it's like, oh, I wish I could just give them the consciousness. Download that. It's like you are the only you. You are the only you. There is no other you. Okay? So there is no comparison in that sense, right?

Like there is only you and if someone wants to be with you, they're going to be with you. And so how am I special? It's literally you, you, your consciousness when I'm playing with you. It is you and all of your history and your, your energy and your erotic power and all of that. Like that is the specialness right there.

And then this fear of like, is it gonna change the whole world? And the dynamic maybe. Yeah, that is fucking scary. And you're right, but Lord knows I wanna live in a free world rather than trying to cage my partner. And do you know how good it feels to know that my partner could fly all around the world and actively chooses my lovers choose me, right?

Like, I wish I could give people that consciousness download that they could see, like, I am special. No one is gonna ever replace me as a human being. If that person wants to leave, let them. Let them. Mm-hmm. Would you want them otherwise if you had to hold them with a leash? Fascinating. Right? But I think what's interesting is like in my own journey with jealousy and this holy shit, is it easy to, for myself to have.

Uh, I, we don't need a name numbers, multiple lovers, right? I have so many different lovers at this point. It's a blur and I love that. But like the second one of my lovers, depending on how close an attachment they are, and then depending on how much I vision out for them, like, is this the person I might wanna have kids with?

When, whatever, you know, all of that. Then I get much more spiky about who they have relationships with. And so I think it's so much easier when we're in our own consciousness, 'cause we have control over it. These are all my lovers, right? I have control. The second you're talking about an external variable, which is your lover and what they do, it brings up all of your fears and desires for control and attachment and narratives.

And it is difficult. So hence like it's easy to practice infidelity because you really are only existing in that lane. But when you try to give that same level of freedom and communication to another person, it is jarring to work through your attachment style. Like, wow.

[00:52:53] Paul: Especially if you know, you're raised with a, you know, the traditional conservative culture sense of.

One partner for life and how you, you know,

[00:53:02] Dr. Nicole: yeah, that's me.

[00:53:03] Paul: Articulate that thought. And like I said, we said earlier, polyamory doesn't get rid of jealousy.

[00:53:07] Dr. Nicole: No,

[00:53:08] Paul: but what if it, if it, if it, if you're doing it well, it opens up the communication channels to deal with appropriately. But just as you said, idea that I have to force my partner to be with me to ensure fidelity, that that actually sounds the opposite of what you think it means.

Because then are they with me? 'cause they want to be, or are they with me? 'cause they're scared. If they do anything, you know, they'll lose me. That's a very different thing where exactly as you said, if that person comes home to me every weekend comes home to me every night after whatever else they've done, they've chosen to be.

And here's the thing, if you're a parent of more than one kid, you know this to be true. You have the capacity to love more than one person equally. No. I'll often tell one boy I love them that more than the other just to do things. No, I don't. But the reality is, you, if you have more than one children as I do, you love them equally differently though.

Mm-hmm. But you do love them differently. And the capacity to have multiple lovers and care for them individually, uniquely, and, and have some sort of prioritization within that is completely normal. The reality is monogamy is not a natural phenomenon. Thank you. The animal world is, there's very, very few animals that are truly monogamous.

[00:54:19] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:54:19] Paul: There's a lot of myths and misconceptions around that, but the reality is it's, it's really low in terms of true fidelity in the animal world, and at the end of the day, we're slightly more evolved animals, so why think that we're any more special than everything else on this planet?

[00:54:37] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:38] Paul: Mm-hmm.

And sexual diversity is one of the reasons the planet has evolved in the manner it has and given us the diversity of life that exists here. So. That might be a big, too big of a leap for, you know, some traditional conservative people. But it's the truth.

[00:54:55] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Well, and the reality is, even if you don't believe in evolution, right?

And they believe in more creationism, look at history, if you look at the history of the human existence, it has not been monogamous. Right? When we look back in our culture, that is not what has been happening. That's where this stuff went from. Wednesday, Martin was really helpful to learn more about the agricultural revolution and when we started private property and then therefore the need to pass down control and et cetera.

Like the more you learn about that, the more you realize, wow, even if you don't believe in our animal beginnings, right? That like, oh shit, historically this isn't even what we practiced. Right? And so I think the more people download that it, it is a consciousness download to kind of shift and start like realizing that we've been lied to, sold all of these myths, and that actually we all are attracted to multiple people.

Right? And I guess Paul, if I'm just being honest at this point, I feel like I've lost touch with reality in the most beautiful way because. It's just like, damn, you're missing out on so many experiences. If I, you know, maybe I won't speak to other people, live your life, you guys, but for myself, if I could speak to my pre previous consciousness, it's like, damn, Nicole.

One day you'll be in a room with people that you all love and trust and feel so deeply safe with that when they put their hands on your body. Just the touch of your body feels orgasmic and you have multiple people touching you and bringing you to pleasure and the capacity for pleasure in your body when you're being touched with all of that stimulation with people that you trust and you love and you feel safe with.

Oh my gosh, is it radical? You know, like I feel like I've lost touch with reality in that sense because like, I can't even fathom the past. Like there's just so much that people are missing out on in that sense.

[00:56:38] Paul: You sound very grounded and what's interesting Yes. In what you, something you said that really stood out.

No, you do sound very grounded and not out of reality is often I hear my members say, you know, they'll do interviews with the media. Uh, and the reason is catharsis because they can't tell their best friends what they're doing so they can do these anonymous interviews. Yeah, and the, and sometimes like people ask me like, why, why would they risk that?

Why would they do that? A lot of the times the members will tell me this, just as you said, I'm speaking to my younger self. I'm giving my younger self permission to think differently because I wish I had this capacity and knowledge that there's so much more out there in the world to experience and not limit yourself.

Because what we expect of the world and of relationships, imy is rarely the truth. Doesn't mean it's bad, don't get me wrong. I'm not in the business of denigrating monogamy in and of itself. I'm just saying it should not necessarily be the default and it should not be looked at as the only option.

Mm-hmm. And that everything else is, is an adverse event and we're not there. Society. So, listen, part of my job is going out and explaining these things and talking about these things. And in a weird way, if I was really, really good at my job, you know, I would end Ashley Madison because I would convince people they don't need to cheat.

'cause they could have these open relationships, they could talk about different dynamics, but we're not gonna be in that space for, for generations to come, quite frankly. Mm-hmm. So the, the need for my business is going to be there. That, that said, it is evolving. And you know, the idea that we could talk to our younger selves and convince them that, you know, how we view these things is different, is interesting.

But a lot of people do that

[00:58:09] Dr. Nicole: Well. Yeah. 'cause a lot of people get mad at me. I'll just put that, which is like, cool, be mad. Love that, rah. But like a lot of people get mad at me when I make comments like that because they're like, well, I'm doing my thing. And the reality is, my past consciousness would've also, you know, went.

I was, I've talked about this story on the podcast. I went to a Christian college, they asked for debate topics. I chose homosexuality. And I was like, homosexuals are sinners. They're going to hell. Right? It's like curious, there was a queer woman now, like, where, where was all that passion coming from? Hmm.

You know? Hmm. So my past consciousness would've slapped me if I said any of this, right? But I, I, I try to almost like soften the blow of what I say about these things, because when I say them publicly, people take such a defense to it and get really activated. Where if I'm talking to my past consciousness, it's a little bit less direct of a message, right?

Because this is, it's jarring for people to hear, Hey, monogamy is not what we practiced for all of these years. Hey, you could have sex with multiple people. Hey, all this, like, this is a very startling topic I'm sure you've seen that gets people really activated and, and just, you know. Confrontational to put it lightly.

[00:59:16] Paul: Yeah. I mean, it's interesting as sex becomes, you know, more discussed and shown. Yeah. In pop culture, more and more women are finding avenues to explore and it's, you know, it's kind of, um, a divine rod in certain communities, but 50 shades of Gray was a moment for a lot of very conservative, traditional women.

It was an eyeopening moment for them to say, holy shit. Now let's be very clear, for those of you who who know, the BDSM space, that is a horrible book and everything about it has no correlation to what the BDSM world is about whatsoever. So I'm not, I'm not suggesting it's, but take a minute and, and, and, you know, have a bit of a, a, you know, a feel for your, your vanilla friends who had no idea about what the hell that world is about at all.

And it opened up a moment where they said, Ooh, maybe I do wanna be spanked. Ooh. Right, right. Maybe I do wanna be tied up. Maybe I do, maybe I don't. Why am I suddenly getting these urges, these feeling, why am I flushed watching this? 'cause this is different. 'cause it isn't, it wasn't meant to be degrading.

The idea was she was in her power, she was controlling the dynamic, not gray. And you know, so there is some truths to the BBD SM community in that respect from the sub, uh, relationship. And we saw it jump in, in, in membership around that time. Mm-hmm. And I don't think it was coincidental because a lot of women were like, I wanna do some stuff.

And their husband's like, well I don't wanna do any of that stuff. And so they're like, well, I'm gonna go get it somewhere. And people were exploring these and sometimes it's just like a conversation. It's chat. Some people come on to Ashley. And, and they'll use it to explore fantasies and talk to another partner who's in a similar situation.

Because that capacity for empathy is, is, is very embracing and comforting that I'm not a freak 'cause I wanna explore this. I'm not a bad person. 'cause we're particularly women though men too are told, you're, you're disgusting. You know, you're, you're, you're a pervert. You're all these weird things for just having interest in, you know, a, a really kind of normalized activity, quite frankly.

[01:01:15] Dr. Nicole: Right, right.

[01:01:16] Paul: And, and you talk to people who, who move into these spaces later in life is so liberating from 'em. And they're not, you know, suddenly, you know, shooting drugs and, and, and dropping outta society. They're elevated, they're more cautious about their actions and, and they're more comfortable. And here's another thing.

We actually did another study with a professor out of, um, university of Minnesota Duluth, Dr. Ashley Thompson. She was studying the outcomes of, of, of affairs. 30% of the people who were having affairs felt that their primary relationship improved because of their affair. Yeah.

[01:01:52] Dr. Nicole: I I mean, yeah. I can understand

[01:01:54] Paul: you're gonna say yes, but a lot of traditional, how's that possible?

Here's the truth. If you get to a certain age, you're gonna know people who have had infidelity impact their, their, their marriage more often enough. It doesn't end the marriage. It forces hard conversations. Sure. And then you mitigate what was the cause of that affair, because what's the point staying together if you're not gonna make changes?

Right. Right. It's not like, I'm not just not gonna cheat. One of us has to change. Dr. Tammy Nelson, you know, calls these canop affair. Some people intentionally get caught having an affair to prove a point to their partner. Listen, I told you I wanted to do these things. You didn't listen to me. So I went this route because I needed to get your attention.

[01:02:33] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:02:34] Paul: And then the real, real conversation start. And the marriage can get a lot better after that. And people get mad when I say that. How? How could you possibly improve in a marriage through an affair? I'm not saying it's necessarily the best path, right? But sometimes it's the only path because somebody, one of the partners isn't listening, whether it's the wife or the husband.

And 'cause people have your interest in sex and intimacy changes over the years fundamentally. And one of the biggest, I think, cohorts is women postmenopausal. Sure. We were taught culturally for years. Yeah. Once that happens, sex life ends. And women I think, fell into this. A lot of women fell into, uh, you know, I've had my menopausal, I'm done.

But now we're seeing women's sexually liberated. I don't have to take the pill. That, that can cause problems health wise. And I'm no longer worried about pregnancy, which is a big issue. Sure. Going to be worse than America, these y these days. Um, and now I don't have to worry about that. So it's a, it's a, it's a new sexual liberation for a lot of postmenopausal women.

And there's suddenly, I, I have a, a renewed vigor. Mm-hmm. And interest and some of their husbands were like, well, what the hell? There's this great member story I have if you, if you allow me to digress here.

[01:03:45] Dr. Nicole: Sure. Yeah. Go for it.

[01:03:46] Paul: I can, I can talk about her name. 'cause she's, she's gone public with her story.

This woman, Bobby Goldman, she was married to a big Hollywood producer. She lived a, you know, fabulous, like traveled. Affluence, you know, everything was, was there. She was also ran her own independent businesses. So she, you know, wasn't just, you know, a, a stay at home wife and her husband sadly passed away and she was in her, I think her sixties at the time.

And for a period of time, you know, things got dark and she was seeing a therapist, and the therapist said, listen, you're depressed. You need sex.

[01:04:17] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:04:17] Paul: She's like, shit, you're right. And so she signed up on all the traditional dating apps. And the problem for her was most of the guys in around her age that she was interested in, were looking for a caregiver, not a sexual partner.

And she's like, no, no, that ain't working for me.

[01:04:29] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:04:30] Paul: So she signed up to Ashley Madison and she met all these guys. And at one point I think she had seven different lovers and some of the lovers, you know, introduced her to their, their partners, their wives. Mm-hmm. And the wives were like, oh, thank God you're doing, I was done with this space.

And, and it, it led to what was fascinating for me and the reason I know this story, and I can tell you this story 'cause most of our members are obviously very discreet. She ended up writing an off-Broadway musical mm-hmm. Called the Curvy Widow. Beautiful. About her adventures. Beautiful. Beautiful. And it's a beautiful story because she found joy and happiness through this act of, of being an adulterer at the end of the day, even though she was a widower.

Um, but it shows you the capacity that people have for intimacy at very different stages. It doesn't end for most people. It doesn't end almost ever. One of my favorite things I tell people is about my great-grandmother.

[01:05:18] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:05:18] Paul: And I remember my, we, we, she had to go into a, a nursing home in her late nineties, and my dad used to get a phone call every once in a while from.

The home said, um, Mr. Kibo, uh, we need you to come pick up your grandmother. My dad like, well, what's the problem? Is she fallen? Is she sick? They're like, oh, no, no. She's getting naked and climbing in bed with some of the male, uh, uh, guests. And my dad laughing. He goes, well, the guy's complaining. They're like, no, well let them be.

They're, they're, they're, they're just fine.

[01:05:50] Dr. Nicole: I was to say, yeah,

[01:05:52] Paul: like, listen, were they having sex? Of course not. Well, it depends how you define sex. Were they having an intimate moment? And for the love of God, I wanna be that guy. I want some 95-year-old woman. I'm in my late nineties and a personal falling in bed with me.

How beautiful and tender is that?

[01:06:05] Dr. Nicole: Uh, yeah. I mean, I've heard the rates of sexual activity in elderly homes. I heard it's very high, actually. Yes.

[01:06:12] Paul: Well, think about it. I mean. But still safe sex folks. If you're, if you're, you know, at that age still safe sex.

[01:06:18] Dr. Nicole: I've heard the, the STD right? The STI rates can be pretty high there.

Yes. Yeah. If you're looking at the end of life, what the hell? You know. Wow. But yes, safe sex, um,

[01:06:28] Paul: if you wanna go out, go out with a bang.

[01:06:29] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly. Literally, right? Uh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I can, I think what I want people to know is the, you know, we are formed by our relationships. You are not. Everyone loves to be special and we are special, but we are formed by our relationships and that being to culture as well.

And so what we find even with food, interesting or repulsive, is a cultural relationship. And it's the same thing in how we relate with other people, right? Monogamy being what is so taught to us. It is gonna be uncomfortable to unpack that if you want to, right? Because it has been what so. Deep and to really point that arrow towards the systems and acknowledge that those systems are internalized, right?

We talk about internalized isms, right? Internalized racism, internalized homophobia, internalized ageism, all that is inside. It's not a reflection of you, but rather the reality that you are created by your culture, right? And so it's gonna be uncomfortable to unpack all of this, but you know, when I record with Dr.

Elizabeth Shef, who does a lot of, um, expert witness testimony for kink and BDSM cases, and also as a sociologist, she's telling me research of 70 to 80% of people are interested in BDSM fantasies. Okay? That's a high number, right? That's why 50 Shades of Gray took off because it tapped into that for folks.

And so I think, you know, your platform is tapping into that again, for folks. And we, you know, we need a space to be able to talk about these things and bring them into the light so that we can change it for future generations. I do have so much hope. For your children, for the future children, that they're gonna live in a much more expansive world where maybe, like you're saying, your website isn't gonna be as relevant as, uh, it will trans, it will transform, right?

Like you're doing to have the open platforms, but the infidelity piece of it is going to transform into much more open relationships. And so I do see that future happening every single time that we have this conversation. I mean, I talk about Margaret Sanger, who was arrested in 1920s for talking about contraception, right?

I talk about contraception on this podcast. I talk about fucking multiple people on this podcast, right? Like, and I'm not going to jail. You know, I might get some looks in the field of clinical psychology, which like, Hey, I'll take one for the team on that one. But, but I, you know what I mean? I'm not going to jail.

And so we, we ha I have a lot of hope for all of these conversations, for the work that you're doing and for the ways that that is changing our cultural consciousness.

[01:08:59] Paul: Yeah. I mean, we live in a world where sometimes we force people into really hard decisions. And I'll give you another example from another member.

You know, and I tell these stories in part 'cause it, it gives you insight to beyond the data. Data's great to give you a macro, but in the micro, you, you, you, my hope is you can get empathy towards why some people choose infidelities or why people choose Ashley Madison. So we had a member at the time, I think she was in her late fifties, and she was a lawyer.

She was well regarded within her legal community. Within her actual community. She was, you know, active and a pillar of all that good stuff. But she had married a man who was a couple years older than herself and sadly he felled early onset Alzheimer's and she had become his in Essence's caregiver.

[01:09:47] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:09:47] Paul: She loved this man dearly and she had zero interest and, and there was no, no chance she was leaving him, but. She was obviously very unfulfilled, but because of the traditional jobs she had and culture, she existed within, you know, dating was not viable. She wasn't gonna sign up and tinder her on match.

Like she couldn't do that because she was a married woman, right? And so she chose Ashley Madison and she found a lover through there and was able to have all her intimate needs met. And it allowed her to, you know, wipe away a lot of the stress of being a caregiver for her husband and fulfill all his needs and do that role.

'cause she did desperately want to, she didn't want to abandon him. That wasn't her desire, but. When you have that frustration and anyone's had to deal with someone in that scenario, it's incredibly hard because your love for somebody exists because the person is right in front of you, but the person doesn't exist because their mind is gone.

And so you add that to a lack of intimate connection and my God, like such a sad outcome. And yet she was so happy for what she found, but she, she would talk about, you know, the conflicted feelings she had about it. And that in part, in understanding that society put that upon her. And so she worked really hard to try to move that away as best as possible.

But it's really difficult. And so, you know, I'd ask your listeners who you know are judging me right now, saying, Paul, you're an asshole because you, you work at Ashley Madison and you run this service. What, what do, what do we ask of these people? Do we just say, oh, they turn to your God and, and, and, and find, you know, happiness in their faith?

Well, listen, good for you if you have faith. But intimate needs are physical. They're part of the real world. We've been given these desires, however they've come about. And to repress them and to ignore them always, always leads to bad health outcomes. Whether it's mental, if not physical.

[01:11:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

And I think a majority of my listeners would be people who are saying, why don't they just talk about it? Why don't they just talk about it? 'cause we talk. 'cause the majority of my listeners are relationship anarchists, therapists, people who practice poly. Right. And so I think the majority of my folks would be like, why can't they just talk about it?

And, uh, I, I hear you dear listener, and I often know that the, a lot of people in their journey into polyamory also start in a place of infidelity.

[01:12:05] Paul: Absolutely. Because, you know, our interests are peaked. And maybe it is that can over affair. But like I said, a lot of our members will say, they did have the conversation with the partner.

They did talk about the issue and tried. And their partner is either unwilling or unable. Um, yeah. And, and one of the interesting parts. I think we did some work years ago looking at when did the infidelity, when is it most likely to occur in a relationship? And the first bump effect is when it is most, is most likely to happen the first time, first bump effect being when the first pregnancy appears, because prior to that it's just a, it's a twosome in a relationship and you can attend to each other's needs, wants, and desires on a very regular basis.

But once that baby shows up, what's interesting about it is what's actually happening there. And it can happen in a multitude of ways. Sometimes a man will say, well, you're a mother now. I can't do those things with you any longer because that is inappropriate for a mother to do those things. Madonna, la whore.

[01:12:59] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:13:00] Paul: Madonna and the whore. Exactly. But sometimes a woman will have that same feeling. I can't do that anymore 'cause I'm a mother and the husband's left going, no, no, you're still my wife. Like, you get to play multiple roles. I go to work and I don't do these things at work because I'm, you know, Workman Paul and mm-hmm When I home, I wanna do these things.

I want to be intimate and we struggle with it. And that first bump effect is a big driver of these things.

[01:13:21] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:13:22] Paul: Mm-hmm. And people, but people will talk about it, but our, our culture dictates, and if you, if listen, if you marry somebody who comes from a very stringent, you know, religious background, even if they've moved a little bit more, uh, openish or a little less strict, they still have these, this foundation that tells them anything outside the norm.

Whatever they consider norm is evil. Mm. Impure. And it's gonna lead to incredibly bad outcome outcomes. And good people don't do those things

[01:13:51] Dr. Nicole: right.

[01:13:51] Paul: And so, you know, you're going to get shut down by a lot of these people out of their own fears of inadequacy and, and, and how they've been raised. And so to, to your listeners, I understand and I do hear you, but trust me when I tell you, if I shut, if we were to shut down our business today, not one affair would, would end.

[01:14:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:14:11] Paul: They would just happen in places where they shouldn't happen. More likely the workplace.

[01:14:16] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, and I think I, I'm thinking about my positionality right now of working in community mental health and just the amount of clients I have that. You know, there's a lot of privilege to your average podcast listener.

I get it's free. I get it's free and you can tune in. But there's still a lot of privilege in having the time and energy to listen to something like this. And there are so many clients I work with who don't have any of this access. And so, like you're saying, divorce is not even an option. And particularly in our society, a lot of women are dependent on that marriage and they could not possibly leave.

And so having that conversation about opening it up or any of it, you know, could ruin the relationship and then therefore lose their ability to survive. I mean, there's just so many factors here. And so I think, uh, maybe we don't cast the stone, right? Maybe we just. Stop trying to blame people for this and just try to create more openness, which is what I hear you doing, and trying to create that space in terms of the, you know, cheating to openness for folks and that, because you're right, it's still gonna happen regardless.

Um, and so creating more conversation is powerful.

[01:15:29] Paul: Yeah. I, I don't see my job as going out to convince people to have affairs because I, right, right. I fundamentally believe I cannot convince a happily married couple to have an affair. I don't believe that's within my capacity. And all 32nd commercials has the ability to do that as good as it may be.

What I do believe that I, I can do is inform people about what's happening in the world of, versus what you think, what are the motivations? What are the outcomes? So you can make a, a better judgment. You still may then say, I, I, I don't like it, and that's okay. But at least it's coming from a place of understanding and wisdom versus, you know, a mythology that we've been raised either through, you know, our religion or our government or just our family strictures.

And the more we have the capacity to understand, the more we can have empathy for those who make this choice for a variety of reasons. And hopefully, hopefully as you said, we get to a place where the taboos that prevent us from having these open conversations are removed. And, you know, Ash and Madison can evolve into, you know, happily ever after the next chapter.

Mm-hmm. Which is a world where monogamy is not strictly defined by, by, by your religion, but by how you and your partner or partners decide to define your monogamy.

[01:16:43] Dr. Nicole: Right. Absolutely. Yeah. That's where I throw the word sexual fidelity. What if we let go of even the word monogamy to say, I practice sexual fidelity, whether that's in my triad poly or with my one person.

Right? Like, that might even get us past, you know, the cultural connotations to that word to just say, yeah, I practice sexual fidelity. You know? Right. Um, and so yeah, I, I see that world. I see that vision, and so I, I appreciate everything that you shared and even the research and, and you know, the platform and all of the s that resources that you do have create space to have the research on us, which in our current culture, there's not a lot of funding for sex research.

Right. So, like, I'm grateful that you are doing that research and taking these, um, you know, the resources that you do have to research these things and then create content for all of us to learn from.

[01:17:32] Paul: Yeah. And listen, anyone who is, you know, an academic who's looking to study this, they can come to us and we'll look at your proposal.

I have another study, it was just put on my desk a week ago. And, and it's looking at, um, well, I'm not gonna say that because I don't wanna

[01:17:46] Dr. Nicole: Sure, yeah. I hear you un undermine her research intellectual property. That's fair.

[01:17:50] Paul: Yeah. That's her intellectual problem. But she, she's studying a different dynamic of, of infidelity and some of the causes that lead to it.

So she's less looking at outcomes and motivations, but what are the causes? And I think there's a specific area she's gonna look at. And I think it's gonna be fascinating as it pertains to giving people, again, more insight around the more we know about things, the better equipped we're to deal with things.

And I think the more we come to understand, not just infidelity, but monogamy, just as a construct, what does it really mean? We just assume a whole bunch of shit when we jump into these relationships. And it's fascinating how many people get in trouble because they assume stuff and they don't really talk about it.

Mm-hmm. So, listen, listeners, and again. The majority of your listeners have already gone down the rabbit hole and, and they're out there, whether they're Polly or not, but just, you know, they're, they're expressive in their, in their intimacy and open with their partner partners. My God, that's, you're, you're in a wonderful place, but don't judge those who haven't quite got there.

You know, seek to be a healthy hand and, you know, find out the information that leads these causes. You know, empower them to have the conversations with their partners or themselves more importantly about, you know, what is a fulfilling, you know, life? What is a fulfilling, you know, intimate partnership look like?

Where do, are my needs being met and where are they not being met, and how do I get there? Yeah. And those are really difficult conversations for people to answer for themselves.

[01:19:09] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And again, don't cast the stone, you know, because we just have to talk about, like you're saying those skills.

Right. In America, I, I looked up this data recently, but I believe it was around 40% of people have a undergraduate degree. Right. So the majority of Americans don't, right? The average reading level in America is sixth grade. I have a doctorate. I am of the 1%. So when I say, oh yeah, I have all these conversations, like I am in, I am not realizing, you know, or

[01:19:43] Paul: you're on the far right of the bell curve.

[01:19:44] Dr. Nicole: Yes. I have to realize every day that things to me that seem easy are I am the 1% of the educated, and I know I have a lot of therapists who listen to this podcast, right? So all of you therapists are also part of, you know, the 1% or wherever you're at in terms of education and that one, right? So it's like, I think people need to understand that this is a structural problem.

When we have issues with communication, it is part of a larger structural problem that is not prioritizing, uh, emotional insight and relational skills as part of our education. And so I just want people to chill. Out and see more of the structural pieces that are here before we start getting angry at one another with this, because it's a reality that these systems are a huge part of why we do not have the skills for the conversations yet.

[01:20:32] Paul: But I will tell you this though, while you know from my perspective sitting north of you guys, I do feel that America is shifting to towards a more conservative style culture.

[01:20:44] Dr. Nicole: Lord, help us.

[01:20:44] Paul: But yeah, fair enough. But at the same time, at the same time, there is less judgment on infidelity as a whole. And I'll give you a couple examples.

When Kamala Harris was running to be president, her husband, Doug Moff had to reveal that he had an affair with his first wife, with the Danny, I think it was. Hmm, not long ago. Maybe, maybe 10, maybe 20 years ago that would've been the end of her campaign. Any sort of, you know, aspect of infidelity within a presidential campaign was the end of that campaign.

No way you can continue on, but it was like a day's news cycle. It was in, it was out, it moved on. People didn't judge it. Right. Now, the, the individual who did win your election, you know, obviously he denies. He denies. And so, listen, I we're not in the business of outing people, so that's not what I'm saying.

But regardless of whether he did or did not, the point is it was in the news cycle consistently, but it didn't stop him. And that is a massive shift. Those of us of a, of a certain age will remember Gary Hart. He was a presidential, uh, candidate in I think the early eighties and I think he was 84. And he dared the media to prove he was having an affair.

'cause he guaranteed he wasn't having an affair. It took him 24 hours. He was sleeping with somebody, it was a picture of him on his sailboat with her and his presidential campaign was sunk the very next day he even dropped him. And, but that's, that's a very short period of time for a shift like that to happen.

[01:22:13] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:22:13] Paul: Where, you know, people in a leadership position are not being judged on their sexual activities.

[01:22:19] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:22:19] Paul: And I think, so there is a dichotomy happening in America. So you are seeing an increase in non monogamy. You are seeing an increase in sexual variety. You're seeing an increase in acceptance to L-G-B-T-Q.

But at the same time we see, you know, other aspects that are moving or conservative, you know, abortion laws are being struck down. So where is American Society going? Unknown right now. So the next four years are gonna be a hell of a rollercoaster ride for you guys.

[01:22:49] Dr. Nicole: Check in, check in with us. We're not Okay,

[01:22:52] Paul: so, so, so long as we don't get an A next I do advocate, you know, always move to Canada.

[01:22:57] Dr. Nicole: Thank you.

[01:22:58] Paul: I think we were, we were, we, we welcome. Uh, you know, I think we were the third country in the world to legalize, uh, same-sex marriage way back in the nineties. Yeah. So we're, you know, we're like your European northern neighbor. Mm-hmm. Just a little chilly up here, but if you're from Chicago, you'll survive.

I promise.

[01:23:14] Dr. Nicole: Totally, totally. Just screams the Handmaid's Tale where they're trying to cross into Canada for, yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, Paul, it's clear that I could talk to you for hours on this content. Surely, surely. So, I'll be intentional and check in with you and take a deep breath as we're closing together.

And then I just wanna see if there's anything else that you wanna share with the listeners. Otherwise I have a closing question that I can guide us towards.

[01:23:43] Paul: Well, I, I'll first wanna say thank you so much for a very enlightening conversation. Yeah. I love when we have people who have the capacity to listen before judgment.

Mm-hmm. I was not here to convince you or your listeners of the value of action medicine, but more to give you insight around, you know, the rationales and what's happening in the world so we can make a better world in the future. And so thank you very much. I appreciate the conversation.

[01:24:07] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. It's been such a joy.

Such a joy. Mm-hmm. Well then the closing question that I have for you, Paul, is what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal? Hmm. Mm-hmm. I mean, so many things, right?

[01:24:23] Paul: But the one thing, one thing, well, I'll tell you, there is an interesting sex trend that is popping up now that we're seeing more in pop culture.

And it's something that I think is going to be a big shift that's going to become more popular. Probably the younger generation is. Pe.

[01:24:44] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Sure. Yeah, totally.

[01:24:46] Paul: Now it's interesting. I bring that up for a reason, not because that is in particular issue to me, but more because it's lessening the, the, the toxic masculinity that is, I think, the impediment to so many relationships in, in an issue within just general western culture as a whole.

Mm-hmm. And the more people can embrace, you know, different sexualities and sexual activities that don't necessarily pertain to your sexuality Yeah. To your sexual identity, but just to your pure enjoyment. The better we are. We, we, we'll watch pornography with women doing just about everything and they, she's still a woman, even though there might be five women in that scene and one guy, all those are women.

When a man does anything that is outside of the traditional norm, we judge him. Yeah. At least for my generation. And the more we have the capacity to see people for who they are and not identify them by their acts, the better we are as people.

So that's the one thing I wish people knew that what you do in the bedroom does not necessarily dictate any one particular title.

[01:25:50] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:25:51] Paul: And nor should it.

[01:25:52] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. I hope people can be able to be pegged and feel the same person tomorrow. Right. It doesn't have to change everything. I recorded with Cooper Beckel, I believe is the person that I recorded with many years ago and who wrote a book specifically on Peggy and talked about what it meant.

And he specifically named that being a struggle of like, what does it mean? What does it mean? What did it mean? Right? And it's like, whoa, you enjoy pleasure. Right? There's so much pleasure to be had. Right? And so I think prostate orgasms right hours. Wow. He really spoke to that. And so I, I hope people, yeah, I know, right?

But I hope people can release and God, my God, just release in your body. Explore your body. There's so much, so much good possible pleasure. We can let go of these scripts, and so I know that that world is coming for future generations with every conversation that we have. When you bring that up as what is to be normalized and people get uncomfortable, I love it.

Like open your hearts folks. Keep opening. Yeah. Well, it's been such a joy to have you on the show, Paul. Thank you for joining.

[01:26:57] Paul: All My pleasure. Thank you.

[01:26:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. If you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast, and head on over to modern anarchy podcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode.

I wanna thank you for tuning in, and I will see you all next week.