236. Relaxing into an Abundance Mindset with Sex and Relationships with Roy Graff

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole. On today's episode, we have Roy Graff join us for a conversation all about finding pleasure and expansive relating. Together we talk about the generations of lost orgasms, our unconscious cultural conditioning, and stepping into more touch support. Hello, dear listener and welcome back to Modern Anarchy.

I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Dr. Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing that psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, author of the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and founder of the Pleasure Practice supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships.

Dear listener, wow, what an episode I have for you today. Wow. Wow. Stepping into the abundance. This is a key component of finding security within the self and security within your community. I have worked with so many polyamorous clients and it can be a real difficult time if you are in scarcity, if you are worried about finding other people who will be able to love you, and that is a real reality because of the marginalized identities, the minority culture, and especially depending on where you're at in the world.

Dear listener, and also. Let this podcast be a testament to how many pleasure activists there are around the world who are challenging these systems, who are creating new ways of relating new paradigms, even new language, worksheets, all the stuff that I have on my website. All the listeners that are on this podcast, dear listener.

Every day there is nervous system, attunement work to do, to step into abundance. And I'll be right here with you doing that work, one episode, one session at a time, and I'm so, so grateful that you are here along for the ride.

All right, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and free resources@modernanarchypodcast.com, linked in the show notes below. And I wanna say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters, you are supporting the long-term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content free and accessible to all people.

So thank you. And with that dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love and. Let's tune in to today's episode.

Dear Listener, there's a space already waiting for you where you are invited to let go of every old script about sex and relationships, and begin living a life rooted in your pleasure, empowerment. And deep alignment. I'm Dr. Nicole, and this is your invitation to the Pleasure Liberation Groups, a transformative, educational, and deeply immersive experience designed for visionary individuals like you.

Together we'll gather in community to explore desire, expand relational wisdom, and embody the lives we're here to lead. Each session is woven with practices, teachings, and the kind of connection that makes real transformation possible. And I'll be right there with you guiding the process with an embodied curriculum that supports both personal and collective liberation.

This is your invitation into the next chapter of your erotic evolution. Say yes to your pleasure and visit modern anarchy podcast.com/pleasure practice to apply.

The first question I like to ask each guest is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:04:52] Roy: Hi Nicole. Um, so my name is Roy. I am a, uh, relationship therapist and coach. I am also a group facilitator. I educate on consent on relationships, specifically non-traditional expensive relationships. And this is a second career for me.

Mm-hmm. Uh, which I've started about five years ago. The process. Okay.

[00:05:17] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Very cool. I'm excited to have you on the show today and get to hear more about your journey and the work that you're doing with expansive relationships. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Beautiful, beautiful. Well, the first big question I have for you is I'd love to hear more about your personal journey.

When did you first hear about polyamory? When does this first impact your consciousness, and how does it like land for you at that time?

[00:05:44] Roy: Sure, yeah. How identified as polyamorous, maybe now for about 10, 11 years. Mm-hmm. And I first really heard about it as a term, as something that people do maybe 12 years ago.

Okay. So up until that point I was in mostly long-term monogamous relationships. Sure. A term with a serial monogamist. Right. And very, uh, rarely single. Mm-hmm. But also not feeling very fulfilled in those relationships. Uh, everything always starting really excited and everything is great. And then at some point, maybe in the three or four year mark, you kind of start feeling something is missing.

It just doesn't really fit. And I feel restricted, constrained. Not sure why. Look for reasons, invent reasons, and often fault a relationship or the other person.

[00:06:30] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:06:31] Roy: And then find reasons why it doesn't work, and ultimately move on, you know, leave it and, and meet somebody else. I've always thought something is wrong with me because I would be in a relationship that seemingly as everything is good and works well, but then start developing feelings to a colleague or a, um, somebody in my university course and not being able to explain why that is and, and, and, and, and feeling that it's wrong, right?

Mm-hmm. So what happened, yeah, about 14, 15 years ago, is that I've, uh, ended a, uh, five year relationship. Mm-hmm. Uh, which also involved, uh, having a child with Mike. Mm-hmm. And felt very deflated, very much like a failure because, you know, there was a child involved. Yeah. I really wanted that to make that work.

[00:07:18] Dr. Nicole: Of course,

[00:07:18] Roy: I was already married in the past and, and, and divorced and this was kind of my. At the time, it seemed like my last chance to kind of have a happy, monogamous life. Mm.

[00:07:27] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. The picture perfect.

[00:07:29] Roy: And yeah. So, uh, a lot of shame and guilt around not making it work. Yeah. Uh, comparisons with my father and 'cause my parents also divorced and Sure.

Um, it was a very dark place, you could say. That was like my kind of dark light of the soul moment. Yeah.

[00:07:43] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:44] Roy: And I kind of lost hope at that point and just decided to just date, to not expect or aim for a relationship, just kind of have some fun and be casual. And I was very clear with people I was dating.

That's what's happening. So I wasn't going to be exclusive, but also I didn't name, I didn't know that there was a name for like no. Or something like that.

[00:08:06] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:08:07] Roy: And in that process, after a couple of years of dating, and then at some point. Uh, the woman I was dating would want to be more serious, would hope, you know, would ask for something more.

And I would be like, okay, I'm not, I don't wanna commit, so we have to end it.

[00:08:20] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:08:21] Roy: I went on a date with somebody from a dating app, from OkCupid, um, and on paper we were very kind of high match. Sure. Um, on the date, again, everything was really great and I didn't know that before the date, but on the date she told me that she was nom monogamous

[00:08:37] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:08:37] Roy: Was, um, already divorced, had a adult son, and wanted, uh, to have her freedom. She didn't wanna live with anybody. She didn't wanna feel tied down.

[00:08:49] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:08:49] Roy: You know, and, and she used all those terminologies that were, for me, were very, very new.

[00:08:53] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:08:53] Roy: But also clicked also, I felt, um, almost like somebody handed me this spotlight Right.

And showed me a new path that I didn't know was there.

[00:09:03] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, totally.

[00:09:05] Roy: And she gave me some books to read then about. Sex at Dawn and the Ethical sluts

[00:09:10] Dr. Nicole: classics.

[00:09:11] Roy: Yeah. And it was really this eureka moment. It was like, what? People actually just do that. Yeah. And feel no shame and just are totally open about it.

That's amazing.

[00:09:19] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:09:21] Roy: And so that was the, the, the starting point. And we were in an open relationship for about a year. And in that time I made probably all the mistakes that I trained Yeah. Man to

[00:09:35] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:09:35] Roy: Um, and she was very patient and and gracious, and I really appreciate her for that. And even though it didn't work out for us, because ultimately we did want different things Sure.

And, um, we're still in touch and we're still friends, and that's really lovely. Mm-hmm. Um, I think for me, the, the first early challenges were that I was embracing this new lifestyle, but still very much kind of stuck in this monogamous mindset.

[00:10:04] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:10:06] Roy: Right. So. I knew that it was okay to let other people and see other people, but I really struggled to be totally open and transparent about it.

Mm. So even though I wasn't doing anything wrong, I would feel like I was doing something wrong. Yeah. And that behavior can be, can be suspicious.

[00:10:20] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[00:10:21] Roy: That can cause tension.

[00:10:22] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:10:24] Roy: So, totally on my own doing, and it took me a while to just relax Totally. And understand that it's totally fine to say to her, Hey, I'm, I'm, I'm seeing, I'm on, I'm on date.

Or I met somebody that I'm really excited about. And over time, uh, that became easier.

[00:10:39] Dr. Nicole: Good. Yeah.

[00:10:39] Roy: And that still wasn't like I, I, that still wasn't full polyamory. That was what been

[00:10:46] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:10:47] Roy: And, but reading the books, understanding more that there's different ways of, uh, practicing non-monogamy. Yeah.

That it's a whole spectrum.

[00:10:53] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:10:55] Roy: But also that there are no rules. You have to kind of figure it out for yourself. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I went through a very. Interesting, challenging, and at times dramatic journey to get to where I am now. Yeah. Where I feel totally settled in terms of I know who I am, I know what I am and I'm totally happy with it.

But it took some time to get there.

[00:11:14] Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah. Doesn't it? And where is there, you know what I mean? I'm still, I'm still navigating the web of unknowns every day, you know? But I hear what you're saying in terms of some of these like common pitfalls that we kind of walk through as your first unlearning the programming of mono normativity.

There's a lot to unlearn in that process.

[00:11:36] Roy: Well, what you're saying is, I think this, like what is there, I mean, I think that's the point that from mono normality of lens, I needed there to be a, there I needed to be a goal. Sure. Yeah. Right. It's like I'm heading somewhere with this person and this is what now I've come to understand is I don't need that to feel secure.

[00:11:53] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, totally. I don't

[00:11:54] Roy: need to know the outcome to actually feel secure in myself. And that was, that was the big, the big learning.

[00:11:59] Dr. Nicole: Totally, totally. Yeah. It reminds me of unlearning, um, internalized homophobia. Like there's so much I've gone through to feel like safe and expansive and joyful in my queer relationships.

And still I'll go to a conservative state and I'm scared to like hold my partner's hand, you know? 'cause you don't know. So the force of like so many of these systems, because of the world that we live in, mono normative culture is gonna be everywhere. So it's a lifelong process of unpacking that and also acknowledging how far you have come.

I feel like sometimes when I'm working with my clients, that's really the edge of what I'm trying to get them to see. Is there. Struggling with jealousy or struggling with other pieces of the expansion process with non-monogamy, forgetting how far they've actually already come. So it's like, I want more, I want more, I want even more stability.

I'm like, can you just pause for a second and see how much you're already holding and how much you're already thriving in this than some people could ever even fathom. Right. And so trying to hold that nuance of like, yeah, getting so far in your journey, always having more to go, but also acknowledging how far you've come.

Mm-hmm. I'd, I'd love to hear some of those original pitfalls that you fell into as someone coming from a monogamous lens. 'cause I think that could help some of the listeners who maybe are still like, walking through those paths and like running into them.

[00:13:17] Roy: Sure. To think about the pitfalls now, where I'm now Yeah.

It's kind of, it's been a while.

[00:13:23] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:13:24] Roy: Mistakes and I don't

[00:13:25] Dr. Nicole: Oh, totally do.

[00:13:26] Roy: But I also now am very clear to, quite, very quick to, to notice it. I'm, I'm also very. Very much communicating to my partners to call me out on shit.

[00:13:34] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, totally.

[00:13:36] Roy: And I'm very happy to admit what I'm wrong and to, uh, to change course.

[00:13:40] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:41] Roy: And I think that for me was, one is in my monogamous life I was somebody who was quite controlling Mm. And, uh, a perfectionist and wanting things my way

[00:13:52] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:13:53] Roy: And the kind of dominance that isn't necessarily helpful or healthy. And it was about, you know, not feeling in control in other aspects of my life.

Sure. Obviously. So for me it was, uh, understanding the freedom that comes with, with non-monogamy also means you have to take a lot more ownership over your shit and your faults.

[00:14:15] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:14:15] Roy: There's nobody else to. Uh, blame, right?

[00:14:19] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I always talk about it as a, um, a psychedelic trip, right? Because we talk about psychedelics as, uh, non-specific amplifiers.

Mm-hmm. And I think that non-monogamy is a non-specific amplifier of your attachment. And you drop that drug and you go, wow, I didn't know I had insecurities over here, here, and here. Cool. You know, it's a lot to, uh, download in that sense. And so I can imagine too, like, based on like gender stereotypes as well, under the patriarchy, there's a lot of, uh, controlling, you know, sometimes when I, I see polyamorous content online and I get into some of the comment sections, you know, which is woof a journey.

Uh, I'll see stuff like you'd let your wife do that. Ugh. You know, like, so there's so much of that like, yeah, male ownership over the female that they're attached to in this heteronormative lens, of course. But like in that lens, which is the quote unquote norm of the majority of our society right now, like there is ownership and possession.

And so to unpack that, I imagine as a male was also a lot for you in ways that I have not, you know, experienced in my journey.

[00:15:26] Roy: I think that there is, um, so first of all, yes, uh, as a man, a socialized man in a society that I grew up in, which was quite, uh, macho.

[00:15:35] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:15:35] Roy: And with all toxic masculinity, I had a lot to unpack there and learn.

I was generally always very much a feminist and very much, uh, on the side of women and a very sensitive kind of child growing up. So maybe it was like easier for me than for other people. But I, you know, I still grew up in that culture and I had to kind of toughen up just to survive there. So for me, there was both this kind of ownership and possessiveness thing mm-hmm.

That I needed to, um, kind of undo. And that was generally okay for me. It was quite easy, I think because, um, one I grew up with my mom and, and two sisters, and very much saw the female perspective on life. Yeah. Yeah. After them. And, and, um, my mother is a very strong, capable woman and I really looked up to her.

And just in terms of like my idealism, right? Like my values of freedom have to extend to everybody I'm in contact with, not just, to me that would be very, um, what's the word, would be hypocritical to be like, I, I deserve freedom. You don't,

[00:16:39] Dr. Nicole: right, right,

[00:16:40] Roy: right.

[00:16:40] Dr. Nicole: And yet some men do that and yet some men

[00:16:43] Roy: I that, and there's a social socialized expectation that these things aren't, aren't equal.

[00:16:48] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:16:49] Roy: I never saw that way, but, and I had to. You know, one thing is to say it out loud, another thing is where to internally believe that. Yes. Right? Yes. And also have a reaction. So that is a matter of practice where even if I have the reaction, I know I don't, uh, I don't have a right to say that to a partner.

I can't control what she does with her body, with her time, with her attention, with her heart. Mm-hmm. It's her life, right? Yeah.

[00:17:13] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:17:15] Roy: And I can still feel some pain. I can still feel a fear, and I gotta basically sit and deal with it and understand that it doesn't, it's nothing to do with her.

It's about my own internal kind of misogyny or internal homophobia or whatever it is. Right. And, and, and when I think about intersectionality, it's also say homophobia is something that, um, I grew up with. Mm-hmm. And I always identified as straight, I identify as straightish.

[00:17:38] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:39] Roy: And, but I had some, you know, really kind of aversion and fear of physical contact with men.

And there were times in my life where I thought maybe I'm really sensitive. Mm-hmm. I, I'm in touch with my feminine side. Does that mean I'm gay? Mm.

[00:17:52] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:17:53] Roy: In touch. I didn't go there.

[00:17:54] Dr. Nicole: Sure. '

[00:17:55] Roy: cause, 'cause again, society kind of taught me that that's dangerous and I can get hurt. Yes. Right? Yep. And I think that through non-monogamy, I just learned to embrace more unknowns, to just like embrace that and be like, well, I dunno what's gonna happen, but I can say yes.

And you know, if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. Yeah. I'll learn something.

[00:18:17] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:18:17] Roy: So I also embrace that and, and tried experimenting also with men and just saying, do I like it? Do I not like it? And

[00:18:23] Dr. Nicole: beautiful

[00:18:24] Roy: turns out that I'm straight, but I also really enjoy making out and kissing men and That's fine.

[00:18:28] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:18:28] Roy: I'm not sexually attracted to them, but I, you know, I do, there's people that I really like and I like them because of who they are, not because of their gender or their genitals. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That was a bonus.

[00:18:40] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. All of the, uh, narratives of unpacking the concept of self, right?

Throwing them out the window. You get the psychedelic metaphors just come in so hard for me. Um. Mm-hmm. It's that like, surrender, let go. Right? Surrender, let go. And showing up where you're at now, and yeah, I think about. Yeah, just so many narratives and how deep they are within our unconscious. I feel like that's one of the biggest things to understand about power structures is that they live within our unconscious.

And so often when you're in these moments of expansion, of trying to stretch yourself into new paradigms, you're still going to have, at first those original thoughts come up, right? It's not like you just wake up and say, I've unpacked this goodbye. The thoughts can still pop up. The fears in the body can still pop up, and so it's about that ability to recognize those thoughts, to not attach yourself to them, to take a moment in your body and ground and then write the narrative that you want moving forward.

I think that that's the hard part, at least of my own journey of, I was reading all of the books. I'm writing my dissertation, I'm so committed to this, and then I would show up at play parties, seeing couples enter a mix and all that, and then having so much judgment towards them, and I. So confused. Like, why am I judging them as I'm writing this dissertation on non-monogamy and I'm here with my multiple partners, like why am I judging them?

You know? And so I think it's about understanding how deep those systems are within our unconscious, and then rather than getting yourself into a spiral that you have the thoughts, like taking accountability for it, having compassion, knowing what systems you live in, and then deciding what you wanna do moving forward.

That's a lot of muscle work in the brain to really sit with all of that.

[00:20:27] Roy: Yeah, for sure. And it, and it was something that, I mean, I still get struggle for with it. It just that now that struggle is relatively, um, simple and just in a sense of like, I know, you know, I have this meta awareness of what's going on.

What is that process? Yeah. Yeah. And it doesn't paralyze me. It doesn't freeze me. It doesn't stop me from doing the things I know I want to do that myself really wants.

[00:20:49] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:49] Roy: And how I want to express it. Yeah, when you asked me about some pitfalls, one of the things that uh, I think I struggled with initially was how much I need to communicate.

[00:21:02] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:21:03] Roy: You know, just assumes that everybody knows what the process is and because there is this set relationship escalator. You don't actually have to talk about it to, you know, with very much detail. It's just like, oh yeah. It's like what's expected. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. And there's all this expectation that if my partner really loves me, then he'll just know what I'm thinking and what I want without actually me having to say anything.

Mm-hmm. And that, yeah, that cost me, because I entered a polyamorous relationship with somebody where we had a lovely time dating. We, it was very intense. And even though we were both, you know, we're seeing other people, we chose to see each other much more.

[00:21:39] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:40] Roy: To the point where it made sense to move in together.

Mm. We just moved in together assuming that we both polyamorous, it'll just work out, you know, it just,

[00:21:47] Dr. Nicole: yeah. So much more to unpack

[00:21:50] Roy: so much. Um, and it taught me a lot. It was a kind of a, a PhD level education. Yep. But it was also, you know, very difficult and ended quite toxically. And, you know, I I, I, I'm grateful that it led me into the direction of, say, studying psychotherapy, becoming a relationship therapist.

All of that was outta experience.

[00:22:16] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:22:16] Roy: By the time, yeah. We didn't discuss what are our values in polyamory, how do we, uh, define the boundaries around our shared space, right. What are the limitations of the freedoms that we give each other and, and ourselves, and what are the fears that might prevent us from accepting that freedom for the other.

Mm-hmm. And it wasn't communicated at all. And it's funny because I remember like quite early in that time, we were interviewed for a podcast. Mm-hmm. Um, together about NoMy.

[00:22:47] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:22:48] Roy: Remembering how confident we sounded about et cetera, and realizing we knew nothing.

[00:22:57] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, right. Reminds me again of the frame.

I'm sure you knew so much, but there's always more. Right? There's always so much more, and I'm glad

[00:23:04] Roy: pseudonyms for that.

[00:23:06] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, I hear you. I hear you. Sometimes when I look back on my past episodes, I feel the same way where I'm like, girl so much more to learn. So just that humble, uh, beginner's mindset throughout the journey, I feel like, and yeah.

When I, I talk about this, it reminds me of, you know, if the relationship escalator is like a paint by numbers canvas, right? It's pretty clear. I put the paint here, I put the paint here, I put the paint here, and then you take all of that away into expansive relating where you have a blank canvas. There's so much more to talk about so much more.

Mm-hmm. When you get to draw outside the lines like what a beautiful experience, but also often what a terrifying and complicated experience for most people. Most people want that structure and want the paint by numbers. 'cause the blank canvas is actually very overwhelming. Right. And so the beauty of getting to create your life, but then also the struggle of having to figure out how to gain these skills when our society is not given that to us.

We don't have a lot of models of other sorts of paradigms of relationships to be able to kind of get an idea. So it really is a blank canvas. And so I hear you in that journey of having to learn where are the boundaries of how much I can share, how much details do you wanna know? When am I crossing over the privacy of the other person?

Right. Uh, but I need emotional support and we're all related. Wow. The smaller your circle gets a relating, I found. You know, there's a lot of complexity in that when you start having multiple shared partners all across. I feel like there's, um, just in terms of complexity, when people are doing like parallel poly, that feels very different than when you start doing kitchen table or doing more of like true crossing of multiple dynamics.

Now we're in a whole other, it reminds me a lot of like family therapy paradigms of how you manage that many multiple relationships at a time. Um, so I just feel like there's an endless world of unpacking because our society has really not given us the skills in these areas.

[00:25:06] Roy: Um, that's right. We don't get those skills.

Uh, there's actually, I think we, we learned a lot, uh, growing up the val values of concealing and not sharing, and oftentimes we're told, well, you know, you don't wanna say something that will hurt the other person, so it's better to hide it, you know, and in that process we often. Discount and minimize the ability of the other person to handle difficult truths.

Yeah. And to actually sit with, you know, with pain and, and sit with things that they don't, they wouldn't like to hear, but it's their right to hear it and then process it. Just like we process difficult things.

[00:25:41] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:25:41] Roy: What I see often also with clients is that so much of the, just the, the, the, the drama comes from parenting or infantalizing, you know, like a, uh, the, the partner.

[00:25:53] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. I've had partners in the past who have not told me the full truth of situations, which was always very jarring to me because. Uh, we're in a paradigm of open communication. You can do anything you want, essentially. Mm-hmm. As long as you communicate it with me. And, and if you do things that I don't agree with, I'll set my own boundaries and space.

We just have to communicate about it. And so having two different partners in my journey even not tell the full truth, it was very jarring. Like we. A paradigm, a full truth, what is this? And I think it kind of comes back to what you're saying earlier of like this, this fear of coming to it with shame to tell the other partner fear of their response.

Um, fear like you're saying, and infantalizing that they won't be able to handle this even if they said, please tell me. Right? And so people feel like they're doing the right thing to kind of hold some of this back. But really it creates even more chaos when you do find out because then you can't trust if they're fully sharing.

And now we're on very, um, unstable ground here. And so I think it takes a bit of exposure therapy to kind of put yourself out there and say, okay, I've had this experience. I'm actually going to share it with my partner. It goes well. And then that builds more space for that muscle to grow, continuing to be more and more open.

But if you have. Experiences where you share and then the person, you know, has a pretty intense reaction, which is fair. We're all unpacking that. Right. But that can cause you to close up and not wanna share in the more, in the, in the future.

[00:27:19] Roy: Yes. And that doesn't, I mean, I wanna share an anecdote from my own personal journey because I think that first of all, everything you said is true.

It can also be a reaction to a past drama. Yeah. And it can be about with your parents growing up or with the previous relationship. Like in my case, I was dating a, a new partner and we was quite early on in our relationship, so I was still getting to know her. I was going out to meet, uh, uh, I think we were staying together at the time.

And I was going out to meet, uh, another person that I met at a party. And I was also going to meet a, a person around, you know, before or after for a business meeting.

[00:27:56] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:57] Roy: And I told my partner about a business meeting. I didn't tell her about this other woman. And on my way there I was really struggling to understand why didn't I tell her?

I mean, we're polyamorous. She knows I'm dating other people. I told her at the time that I met the person at the party. I didn't know going into that if it's a date or not. We, like, we met, we said, let's meet up and see. There was some attraction there, but I didn't know what it was going to develop into.

Right. And as I was thinking about, like, why didn't I just tell her what stopped me? Where is this fear?

[00:28:23] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:28:24] Roy: Nothing about her. She is, she was, you know, first of all it was new. She, she's a very kind of calm person. Yeah. Um, she was relatively new to polyamory, but didn't show, give me any sign that she would react in a bad way.

So it was nothing about her. Mm. As I was walking and, and thinking about it, I realized my previous partner before that had very strong, volatile, violent reactions. To me expressing an interest in somebody. Mm. If she wasn't prepared enough, or if I told her the right, wrong time, or when there was like alcohol involved.

There's different reasons, but ultimately Sure. I felt like I was walking on eggshells.

[00:28:57] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:28:58] Roy: And the reaction was so intense that, that I stopped telling her things that weren't for sure that if I didn't know it was a date or nothing happened, I would just be like, well, there's not no point telling her no point.

You know, waking the dragon if there's no payoff, essentially, if it's not something I'm, I'm actually want to pursue. Right. I will take the hit for somebody, I'm really serious about it. And then we'll have to have go through. But I already anticipated it will be a conflict.

[00:29:24] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:29:25] Roy: And my re my, just my body remembering that experience stopped me from telling her.

[00:29:30] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:32] Roy: And then when I came back, I just had to kinda sit her down and, and I, and I, and I, I think my process there, and that's something I carry with me since then is if there's something in me that I feel, you know, fear about telling something. This is exactly why I need to tell them. Yeah,

[00:29:47] Dr. Nicole: yeah, yeah.

[00:29:49] Roy: And Pat down said, yeah, I need to tell you something.

And of course, the way I was saying it very seriously, she paniced, she thought, I'm gonna break up with her or something. She had gone. But once I actually told her what happened, she was just like, oh, well that's not that big of a deal.

[00:30:00] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:30:01] Roy: Because I told her what happened and I expected her why I didn't say it before.

Mm-hmm. And the whole thing, you know, as long because I gave her the full context, she was just like, okay, I understand. Yeah, no problem. You definitely tell me like it's all good. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, that helped. That went a long way to also healing my trauma in that, in that respect.

[00:30:20] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. And like you said, it's in the body, right?

That body knows the reaction, so it's trying to keep yourself safe and so yeah, it makes sense. Mm-hmm. That it would take continued exposure in a safe relationship to be able to unlearn that. And I think that's often so much of the pain with, with my clients when they say, I'm so afraid to share, I'm so afraid to share.

And we get into the context and we have Yeah. Their partners who are reacting in these ways. And I just wish I could explain to them like. Wow. If you had a partner that when you came home you said, wow, I had this great day. Like we had these multiple orgasmic experiences and it was so lovely. And your partner said, hell yeah.

That's so exciting that you got to tap into your pleasure. That's so exciting that you were able to build intimacy with other people. Right? That's a joyful connection afterwards, which will open you up to wanting to share more when it's consensually okay. With the other partners and all of that, but that opens your heart up rather than contracting.

What, why did you tell me? Oh my God. Right? Like, then you're like, oh wow, okay. Uh, you know, closing the chest, the listeners can't see me. Um, and so those experiences of how essential it is to have a partner, and we know this in other areas of our life, right? If you express something vulnerable and tender and you're met with, you know, an aggression or any sort of other experience, it's gonna make you close up, right?

That is protective. And so we can see that and then holding the nuance of the complexity of when someone is having that reaction, right? We can support them. And also are they doing their own individual work? Because this takes a lot of individual work on your own self to unpack the narratives, the expectations, the hundreds of thousands of assumptions that we have in relationships because of the escalator.

And so it is that delicate dance of being able to support another person and them do your, do their own individual work. Also, sometimes the space that you're in is just not in alignment. I, I've had to learn that in my own journey as well, of it's a lot of emotional investment of your time and energy to support people in that journey of unpacking.

And some people also don't want to go as far and unpacking that. I don't, I don't know how to say that in any other word. Like there's a, a full range to expansive relating, and if someone wants to, to stay in a la like for example, a mindset of swinging, right? And does not wanna get into the emotional complexities of, of more of what it means to share emotional intimacy.

Like there have been times in my own journey where I've had to say, this is not in alignment in terms of partnership because the emotional labor that it would take to support you to get to this space that you're not really even wanting to get to, and therefore having these reactions when I'm sharing, like, it's okay to also draw a line and say that like, I, I cannot support you in this.

And there's a misalignment here and where we're at in terms of paradigm.

[00:33:06] Roy: Yeah. Well, I think it's also important to recognize whether this is a journey that they choose to do for themselves, rather than their only following you because they wanna be with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's why they're doing it, right?

Because that can feel maybe quite a, I don't know, a compliment. It can feel very kind of ego boosting to Not sure. They're willing to like change their whole kind body system, but ultimately, if that causes them pain repeatedly or if at some point, you know, there's somehow in the back of their mind, they're just hoping you will change eventually.

Yes. And they're just staying there until that happens. Oof. Wait, that, yeah, that's not very nice. Um, one thing I wanna, I wanna hold space for the fact that, like you said, it is spectrum, but also people are going to be at different stages of that journey. And it can take a different amount of time and it can be at different speeds.

Yes. And if somebody's reaction to you saying, I am, I've, I had this amazing date, and, you know, we really wanna see each other again. And if, if that, if my internal reaction to that is, oh, I'm, I'm noticing that their excitement about this other person contract contracts with us having a argument yesterday and you know, she's no longer excited about me that way, then that can come with some pain.

[00:34:11] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:34:12] Roy: And I then have this choice. Do I take it out on her or do I just like understand it's my internal process and I don't want take away from her. Enjoyment of watching her experience.

[00:34:23] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:24] Roy: So I don't have to be like ecstatic, you know, for her. But I don't also, at the same time, don't have to like, take it out on her and be grumpy or upset and be like, great, I'm ha I'm glad you had a good time for me.

There's some challenges I need to deal with about that. Mm-hmm. And maybe, you know, right later, maybe we can talk about the reflections I've had about our relationships, but you know, have your time to be in the opposite in the afterglow and enjoy it.

[00:34:48] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:34:50] Roy: Let's just schedule time because it brings up some things for me that I would like to discuss.

[00:34:53] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

[00:34:55] Roy: So I'm not making her do the emotional labor for me,

[00:34:58] Dr. Nicole: right? Yep, yep. Absolutely. That's the nuance of it. All right. Are you able? Mm-hmm. And then for me, I often outsource wanting to help other people. So even if you gave that to me, be like, let me help you. It's okay. Let me help you. Right.

So then I have to, yeah. I have to take a step back and be like, all right, you're gonna do that work on your own. This is okay. Yeah. Even, even though I might see you struggling in that moment, I can't take that personally as a sign that I did something wrong or failed or all those other things that start to come up when you see your partners struggle, but also take accountability that they'll do that work.

Right. For me, it can bring up a lot of like, oh my God, I hurt them. Oh my God, I should stop. Oh my God, I should not keep expanding. I should not play with other people. And that's also been a journey too, because of the caretaking sides of myself and caretaking.

[00:35:43] Roy: I mean, caretaking, yeah. Is an interesting.

Process, which, uh, I think raise all questions about what am I not allowing my partner to do, you know, for themselves to grow into their ability to care for themselves. How am I by caretaking and people pleasing, et cetera, limiting their opportunity for growth? You know, am I doing it because I generally care for them or doing it because.

I don't want 'em to see me as a bad person.

[00:36:09] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:36:09] Roy: Or like, I don't wanna be the bad guy in all this. Mm-hmm.

[00:36:12] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:36:13] Roy: So can I, so it's not that I'm not, I don't care about them, but I don't have to care about how they process this stuff. They will find their own way. It may not be how I choose to do it.

[00:36:22] Dr. Nicole: No. Yeah.

[00:36:23] Roy: But it's their attorney. Right.

[00:36:24] Dr. Nicole: Yep. Yeah, it's, it's often not, right. Yeah. That's, that's one thing is like my view for expansive relating and how I process this is not gonna be the same for all of my partners and lovers. And so that's something to unlearn. Mm-hmm. Um, and often when we do get stressed out too, we're projecting from our own experience, whether that's past pains that we've had and or how we feel we would respond if we got this information from our partners.

Right. And so that can create so much of a lens of how we show up. And I think. I, I would love to talk more about NRE. I think that that is a really powerful thing that I continue to reflect on because especially during those, you know, that example of your partner coming home and saying, I had this expansive date, and there was all these sparks and this chemistry, it can be extremely painful to watch your partner be in NRE with someone else.

Like, wow, joyful that you're there. But also I crave that intensity and spark in our own connection. And because we've been together for multiple years, there is a level of habituation, which is normal in any sort of relationship and not necessarily a lack of indication of love, but rather a, a normalization of safety and security within that partnership that takes away some of that intense spark of dopamine that novelty hits with NRE.

Right. And so I'm curious, uh, any insider wisdom you have around processing that experience.

[00:37:48] Roy: So, as you said, new relationship energy. Is very much a chemical process. Yeah. And infatuation, limerence, all of that is creating, you know, this boost of dopamine, uh, another kind of, uh, um, happy making hormones. And it can take anywhere between three months to a year, uh, until it kind of calms down.

One thing I noticed, and from my own experiences, um, about seven years ago, I started dating two women at the same time. Like literally from the same weekend.

[00:38:16] Dr. Nicole: Oh, cool. Yeah.

[00:38:17] Roy: The ship developed in parallel and there were parallel relationships at the time, but the NRE virtuous cycle just meant that I, it became much longer process.

'cause there wasn't like competition between them. They worked kinda developed. And every time I would like get this, like this boost of endorphins, I would then go on a date with the, with the other person. Mm-hmm. And that would mess me up. So it was this, uh, really fun, uh, journey. And, but, but when you have an established partner and you're falling in love with a new person.

That is an experience that is unique to polyamory, that you don't necessarily have a monogamy unless you obviously break up with a previous partner. Yeah.

[00:38:56] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:38:56] Roy: Then it calls for so much self-awareness and reflection and willingness to be called out on it and, and if your behavior changes, and I've had these experiences as well where I met somebody and it was so, it was quite intense and we ended up like seeing each other like three nights in a row, which often doesn't happen for me.

Um Sure. When I have multiple relationships and you know, and then I was like going on a trip with this person and my established partner did notice that I'm less available, was available to help her move.

[00:39:28] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:28] Roy: You know, I didn't notice she called as much, et cetera.

[00:39:31] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:39:32] Roy: And yeah, so she had, she told me, look, I'm, I'm a bit concerned because I see this and, and I, and I feeling neglected.

[00:39:38] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:39:39] Roy: And, you know, I could argue or I would be like, yeah, but you know, it's my freedom, blah blah. But also. My approach has been, and you know, I have to struggle with it when the chemical reaction also hits me. My approach is very much to not over, over promise on what I can deliver later. Yeah. So I want to start relationships in a sustainable way and keep going that way.

So even if I have, say, if I have one partner only, I will see them the amount of time that I can see them regularly. If I have another partner

[00:40:09] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:40:10] Roy: I will fill my time with dates, with myself, with friendships, with other things, you know, with, with hobbies. Or if we do search, do we see each other more often?

I would be very clear that this is not the way that they would happen, say if I did have another partner.

[00:40:23] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:23] Roy: And at that time I needed to kind of, yeah. Basically just accept that I don't have to see this person so much just because I want to. Yeah. Um, I. In fact, NRE can last longer if we see each other less often.

Yeah. It can just continue, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:40:43] Dr. Nicole: Exactly.

[00:40:44] Roy: But the value of an established relationship dynamic, kind of what? Uh, I guess ERE mm-hmm. Established relationship energy Sure. Is so rich as a tapestry. And the feeling of safety of coming home. Yeah. Of knowing that you, that you are accepted fully for who you are.

Somebody that really knows you and knows all your, you know, dirty laundry as well. Like

[00:41:04] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. But my pussy does not respond the same way. Let's be real with that. Right. Like, that's a very real thing I wish more people could talk about with sexuality, right. It is like the research on women's, we don't have re we don't have research on polyamory and women's desire and long-term relationships.

We don't, we don't yet, yet, but there's research talking about women's desire dropping off in long-term monogamous relationships at a more drastic rate than men. Right. So I, I do think about what. You know, my cravings are for novelty and other sorts of experiences in a way that, like my body quite literally does not respond in the same way to an established relationship energy as it does to novelty.

Like it is, you know, you can build hot, erotic experiences and there's the beauty of that, of like shared intimacy and long-term connection, the fact that they've seen you and all of that. But it is not as spontaneous, I feel like, as like novelty, pure novelty. My like body just like naturally responds to.

Um, yeah. And I think that's hard.

[00:42:03] Roy: Sure. But maybe let's talk about what is the value of that? It's like how much of our own self-worth and value we ascribe to whether we're desired or not, or whether there is that intense sexual passion.

[00:42:15] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:16] Roy: I think that the story people often tell themselves, and I think women and men, um, in the binary sense would have, you know, because of socialization would have a different expectation of that and different experience.

But ultimately if you're judging yourself and your self value by how. How in terms of sex is, or whether you are desired, et cetera, what are you leaving out? And I think that the more that that becomes a, a source of the self-worth, the more you're going to place importance on that sexual connection.

Right. So in established relationship, maybe there isn't that Yeah. Sense of novelty and excitement. Sure. But there is so much else that Oh,

[00:42:55] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[00:42:56] Roy: Um, that I think is so valuable.

[00:42:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:59] Roy: And, uh, what's nice about, say, let's say monogamy at some point. Yeah. A desire drops off. Maybe you are, uh, you have deepening friendship.

You have, you know, kind of, uh, uh, maybe co-parenting, maybe other things in on, on the journey together. And if you still miss that sexual novelty and desire. You're going to build resentment if that doesn't exist anymore, or you'll be cheating or something. Right. 'cause it's 'cause you'll be missing it. Yeah.

And at least in polyamory you can be honest about it. Be like, you know what Yeah. Novelty doesn't exist anymore. Which is fair. Yeah. After just, just together. Um, and doesn't, but our relationship has so much value.

[00:43:42] Dr. Nicole: Oh.

[00:43:42] Roy: Because I don't value myself on whether my partner desires me or not. I can commit to that.

Totally. Um,

[00:43:49] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[00:43:50] Roy: And, and and, and we can still both enjoy, uh, that excitement and novelty in other ways.

[00:43:56] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. It's, it's a, a unique space. I, I speak to it 'cause I wish I would've had this sort of insight during that time because Yeah, my partner, uh, Cooper, who has been on the podcast and many years back, we've been together for many years and I love him dearly.

And there was also a space where. As I was having these new relationships and I had my long-term relationship with him, my body was reacting and I was so wet and turned on by these relationships in a spontaneous way that it took more responsive desire with him if we're using Emily NGO's terms to build that.

And so my mind kept going, does this mean that I'm actually more interested in the other people and I should be orienting my life towards these other connections 'cause they're a better fit for me? And so unpacking the realities that NRE is going to create, that's. Space when you're getting all of that do dopamine, the oxytocin, the serotonin, all of that, there's going to be that reaction with the body that's gonna be a bit more intense.

But that doesn't mean there isn't beauty to creating the responsive desire with your long-term relationships. This man has seen me in all states of a consciousness crying to joy, to everything. There's so much joy to that in the ways that we've grown through so much change together. And I think one of the most powerful things was when I was going through that is that we stopped having sex together because it felt like I was forcing that.

And so the amount of time that we spent deepening our relationship purely outside of a sexual context and then the uniqueness of being able to still kiss and snuggle and be close without feeling that force was a lot to go through psychologically. Um, and so as I've had more partners and expanded into that process of NRE and like wetness and responsive desire to spontaneous and all of that, I just wish I had more language because.

There, there's also research showing how, like, yeah, when pe, when women's desire drops off in these long-term relationships, the second they start to date, again, there's this like spike in eroticism and interest. And so I'm just curious about like novelty and how our body responds to that. Obviously, I, I love long-term relationships.

There's so much beauty in that. I'm also curious about an alternative world, right? In, in some of the research, I've seen swingers report the highest levels of sexual satisfaction actually over poly relationships. And so if I were to make a guess at what that is, it's the level of novelty of like swinging and being able to have that.

Versus in polyamory, if you have 2, 3, 4 partners, you can still hit that level of habituation, of long-term partnership where you're like, wow, okay, these are people I actually know and are stable with. And not giving that like novel dopamine hit. Um, I love my partners. I wanna be very clear. It's just, I, I wish we could have that nuanced discussion too about how the body reacts very naturally.

[00:46:35] Roy: I think that's interesting and I, and probably what I consider. Um, would be a different say with swingers is that you, they, they play together. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. They see their partner interacting with others. They see their response, uh, in real time. They can see that increased dopamine, uh, levels and, and how they maybe are different with different partners.

Yeah. But it's all within the container that they experience that together and that can, I think, also give them some freshness and, uh, novelty, uh, in their own life. Mm-hmm. Um, polyamory ultimately, whether it's kitchen table or parallel, most of the time you spend, uh, uh, one-on-one time with different people.

Obviously there's triads and quads, et cetera.

[00:47:14] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:14] Roy: Um, where you will play together, but then it's like with the same people all the time, and swingers do have this sense of novelty with different partners. Mm-hmm. The flip side of that is that often swingers believe that they put in place these, uh, constructs to prevent.

Emotions getting in the way.

[00:47:32] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Relationship satisfaction was lower for them than poly. So I think that's what you're hitting on now. Yeah.

[00:47:38] Roy: Yeah. And, and, and, and there there is this, like, this belief that if you put these construction rules and rooms in place, then people won't fall in love. One develop.

And you know, and, and also with clients that I speak to, I hear all kinds of rules. Like, you can only go up to out maximum three times with a person or only one time, United States, et cetera, et cetera. That's amazing. And ultimately at some point that's not gonna work. You know, you can fall in love even seeing somebody one time that happens.

Right. Um, and it's more like what you would do with that. And I speak to more, um, I think established couples that are, say in their fifties or sixties or have been six wingers for a very long time, that there is an evolution of starting. Its swinging very, very clear rules and all, and eventually getting to polyamory.

Because they just have to admit the reality that feelings are gonna happen. People are gonna develop emotions and then realizing, okay, that wasn't actually that scary. It didn't break us up. Right. Um. So let's just accept it.

[00:48:40] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:48:41] Roy: Uh, or having these long-term friendships with other couples that actually has a lot of love in caring them.

[00:48:47] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. You know,

[00:48:48] Roy: and, and, uh, maybe don't use the same vocabulary that we use in terms of quad or polyamory, but in effect that's what's happening.

[00:48:54] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:55] Roy: Over time. Yeah.

[00:48:56] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Absolutely. God forbid you have emotions for someone that you spend some quality time with. Right. And, and God forbid you have that when you're exploring eroticism, whether it's a one-time experience or not, like to, to block out the emotional side of that is very heartbreaking to me.

I understand the safety that it often provides theoretically, but the same things can happen in monogamy. Right. The cheating rates in monogamy are somewhere between 40 to 70%, which is a horrible statistic, but realistically I think the listeners can understand. That's 'cause people don't want to report.

How often they're cheating. And so you see stats based on the research studies that are, uh, widely variable. So if we, but if we were to ballpark it at 50% right? Even the structure of monogamy is not gonna keep you safe from the realities of having feelings and attraction for other people. And so being able to get comfortable with that, and I think for me what was really helpful is, is two things, is building my own network of loving relationships, because I've kind of used this metaphor in the past where if you think about love as a resource that we all need, right?

Food, water, love. If you have one source of love, quote unquote one partner. That's it. That's the space you get all of your emotional safety from, needs met, all of that. And then the thought that you're gonna share that one river in a dry desert of connection with other people is the hardest thing you could possibly fathom.

You'd say, fuck that. I'm not gonna share my one resource. There's only a limited amount of water right here. Right. And of course, time and energy is limited, so Right. We are finite humans. I get it. Okay. But when you have multiple sources of love coming into you, multiple different re relationships, rivers of connection, it gets much easier to say, yeah.

Like go, go build your own connections with other people. Go like, I have my own network. And so that makes me feel much more secure in ways that I couldn't have even. Processed back, um, when I first began and was holding so tightly onto one person. So establishing a loving community, and that doesn't have to be people I fuck.

It can also be people that I don't have any sex with, but like, do I feel secure in my own community and love and the ways that I get those needs met? I think that that's really powerful. And then also watching the narratives and how closely the narratives are paired to, um, a level of conditioned response.

So when I, I grew up in purity culture. I was told that men and women should never be in a room alone together. 'cause like, gay people don't exist, like what, you know. Um, but men and women should never be in alone in a room together because if they do, they'll just like sexually combust into sin and like, you know, the whole thing.

And so I remember when I was first getting out of purity culture and Christianity, my partner had said, oh, I wanna go get coffee with this friend that I had who's female in highs in high school. I lost my shit. I was like, what? What? And this is just coffee. Just coffee in a monogamous dynamic. And I was terrified.

Now, if I could look back to that, I would probably say to myself, Hey, based on the paradigms that you were raised in, the thought of your partner being with some other woman meant that they were gonna fuck. He was going to leave you. Right? So that other piece, not just have sex, which was already during enough, but also leave you.

And so I think the further you get into, um, non-monogamy right, you realize that they're not necessarily gonna leave you when someone wants to be with you, they want to be with you and will continue to show up. Yes, they can leave. And that also has happened and it hurts. But also at the end of the day, when someone wants to be with you, they will be there with you.

Right? And so I think unpacking how fast those narratives happen of sex is something bad. And also sex means that they're gonna abandon me. And not being able to see the plethora of ways that someone could maintain the relationship they have with you and enjoy eroticism with other people, right? So I feel like those two pieces of being really conscious of the condition narratives as well as developing your own circle of community of love has made, um, thriving in this much more possible.

[00:52:57] Roy: I like metaphor, you, you said of, uh, of the river. And you know, of the, of the Flowing river, and one thing that occurred to me is that even as an individual, if I think of myself as a river and how much I can offer to others in terms of a resource of love and care, et cetera, is that because I believe that my orientation is polyamorous, living a monogamous life, even before being aware that it wasn't right for me meant that I kind of felt restricted, meant that I wasn't actually flowing as wildly as I could be.

So living my authentic self while expressing that means I have a lot more care enough to give than I could in a monogamous relationship. And my partners benefit from that. Yeah. Because they see me as my happiest, authentic self.

[00:53:49] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:53:51] Roy: There's discourse and there isn't necessarily agreement on whether polyamory is an orientation, whether you can have a relationship orientation from birth.

My personal belief is that it is the case. It doesn't mean that everybody practicing no monogamy is by orientation, polyamorous. Like you could have other environmental reasons for it in terms of upbringing, uh, attachment style, et cetera. So not that everybody practicing no monogamy is by orientation polyamorous.

Mm-hmm. And that's why there's also a spectrum of different way of different kinds of expensive relationships. Right. But this idea that uh, if somebody is capable and has a capacity for loving multiple people and they can handle that in terms of managing their time and their attention and communicate about it.

[00:54:38] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:38] Roy: But comes from somewhere.

[00:54:40] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Innate.

[00:54:41] Roy: Yeah. And um, yeah, I've done some research, uh, a couple years ago as part of my master's thesis, and I've collected inform, like surveyed, uh, about 900 people online. Mm-hmm. And all people that identify as practicing kind of polyamory.

[00:54:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:58] Roy: And overwhelmingly, like 96% said they believe it's an orientation.

They really feel like it's just part of who they are.

[00:55:03] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:55:04] Roy: And if they weren't allowed to practice that they would feel like just a big part of them is missing.

[00:55:08] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:55:09] Roy: To express themselves. Yeah,

[00:55:10] Dr. Nicole: sure. Yeah. And this is where I love the frame of relationship anarchy, right? Because. Oh, like relationship anarchy being about deconstructing the power systems, right?

We know that there are cultures that exist non monogamously, so much so that they wouldn't even use that word because think about that word, non monogamous, to put it into a frame of monogamy as the lens that we look at other cul, like there's straight up cultures that practice open sexual dynamics, and it's not something that they even think about as an orientation.

It's what you're purely born into and therefore do not even reflect on because it's a society that you exist in. Right? And so this question is a deep one, and I'm, I'm okay with not having an answer to it because the reality is, if I was born in a different society, I would've grown up practicing that.

And now what I do know is that regardless of what you wanna do with how much you fuck other people or not, we love multiple people. Every single one of us on this planet has multiple relationships. Already. And if I can do anything in my career, it's gonna get people to see that, that every single person you already have multiple people that you love, and multiple people that you are in relationship with.

And if you can wake up to that and start caring about all the people in your world, I don't care how much you fuck them, wake up to the fact that you love multiple people already. Mm-hmm. Now, within that, if we wanna get unpacking, right, we wanna unpack some of the narratives around sex and what that means.

Oh, I'm here for that conversation. You know what I mean? Like, I'm so, so here to unpack the narratives, especially as someone who came from purity culture, like really here for that conversation. Yeah. Um, and, and we can get into the Sex at Dawn lens, we can talk about Bonobos, we can talk about it all, but you know what I mean?

And at the end of the day, people are gonna do what they wanna do. My Mom's Mormon, you know, like she's. Thriving in her own journey of what that means for her. And I respect that culturally. So like identity yourself. You know what, what I wanna come away with is helping everyone to see you already have multiple relationships, like all of us.

And so I think even with my mom, that is something I'm trying to help her to see. Right. It's like you're choosing not to have sex with all of them, but you do love all of them. Let's at least step into that platform and paradigm.

[00:57:24] Roy: Yeah. And I think what people have the problem with, uh, from anonymous lens is that you do allow yourself to have sex and have committed relationships and, uh, with, with all those people that you, you love, let's say it's okay to love them as long as you stop yourself from doing these extra things.

Right.

[00:57:38] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:57:38] Roy: Um, and that's a very much a social construct. Correct. Um, I definitely resonate with what you said about non-monogamy as a term. It frames what, what we do, uh, from a mono monogamous perspective. Also, non-monogamy can literally mean somebody who is a, a monk who took a a vow, celibacy. It can be a single person.

They're non monogamous. Right. So it doesn't necessarily reflect on, um, on having multiple relationships. Right. I as a, as a, I guess as a, as an asset to that, I actually came up with a, a different term, which is monogamy. And what I like about monogamy is that it uses the same framework, but it basically just says, yes, you are practicing a kind of relationship that involves more than two people.

You know, like multiple relationships, just as it says in the name. And, and that can look like anything. It can look like swingers. It can be going to a sex party with once in a while. It can be polyamory, parallel, kitchen table, you know, quads, tribes, whatever it is. But they're all. Multiple dynamics.

[00:58:37] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah,

[00:58:39] Roy: yeah.

So that's like how I made kind of peace with that, that it's, I don't need mono to define me.

[00:58:45] Dr. Nicole: Right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Could you imagine non-queer or non-straight Jesus? I'd be like non, yeah. Wow. Okay. Yeah, exactly. So the need for more language. Right? And so I, I also think. My younger self would've benefited if I could like hold her and give her a hug with all these fears that she's having about her partner going on this coffee date with someone else.

Mm-hmm. Right. If you think about it from, again, a cultural context, because the reality is we are shaped in relationships. So even this language that I'm using now is shaped by all the people who created the English sax, then English language before me, right? So I'm always a reflection of my environment as well as my own internal experience at Yes.

And, and so when I think about different cultures, right, we can see how, again, there are non-monogamous cultures where the sexual. Play is a part of building community and social relations. We can see that even in Bonobos, right? And we can see in our current context how even some cultures like kissing on the lips.

A peck is a normal greeting. Where in American culture that would be very, very, very uncomfortable and considered cheating in a lot of monogamous relationships, right? So here's a cultural context, and then you can take it even further. There are some cultural context where, um, shaking a hand of someone of a different gender opposite gender in that paradigm, but different gender, right, uh, is considered, uh, sinful, right?

And so in an American context, I think most people would say that's, um, a, granted, America's diverse, right? But in the quote unquote norm of America, uh, the white patriarchal, uh, lens of colonization here. Not all people that exist in America, but, um, shaking hands with someone of a different gender is pretty normalized, right?

And so I think that. What is important, and I wish I could have seen at that time was how much I am a product of my environment and these things that feel comfortable, right? Or uncomfortable, like watching my partner peck someone. If I was in Spain, that'd be whatever, you know? But like in America, I'm crying in the corner, right?

So like, just trying to understand how deep these cultural influences are within my unconscious. And I think that's like the sort of, you know, where you go with that is your journey, right? But I feel like that's the beginning of the Plato's allegory of the cave. Kinda like seeing the lights. Um, and then that doesn't say you have to fuck multiple people, but just this deeper understanding that like, wow, my comfort level is a reflection of the culture that I live in and what I crave and desire is even a reflection of the culture that I live in.

Now. That next step is what do I wanna do with that? What life do I wanna create? Once you've unlocked that sort of awareness,

[01:01:17] Roy: I think it's also important, uh, bringing it back to the body, uh, that how important is somatically that we do experience touch. And physical proximity to people and co-regulation through breathing and through kind of hugging and, and being in contact.

And there are cultures where this is very normal in terms of people holding hands, people cuddling without it being a romantic sexual connection. And other cultures where people don't get that, don't get touch.

[01:01:43] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[01:01:43] Roy: And the only way they can get it is through being in a sexual, romantic relationship with somebody.

[01:01:48] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[01:01:48] Roy: Right?

[01:01:49] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[01:01:49] Roy: And, and this is a, this is a need that we have. Yeah. Socially evolved. Uh, or a biologically evolved need or social cohesion. So not admitting that, not like accepting that this is something that we need to find in our life is problematic because a lot of people then just see, just think that they can get it from sexual, romantic relationships and they put so much into that and then are afraid to let it go.

[01:02:15] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. '

[01:02:15] Roy: cause it's like where they get their needs met.

[01:02:18] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:02:18] Roy: What I would say is if you actually. Get more, you know, start normalizing, cuddling and hugging for a long time with your friends. And again, having a non-sexual touch with more than more people. You actually get more needs met also in your relationship.

To normalize, you don't have to have sex if actually what you need is just physical contact and cuddles.

[01:02:39] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yep.

[01:02:40] Roy: It doesn't have to evolve into sex because sometimes the pressure to have sex. Comes from this place of this is actually not what I need, but I don't know any other way to express what I need.

[01:02:49] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Um,

[01:02:51] Roy: so that means that there's also less fear about losing a relationship, which means you don't have to hold on so tightly. Mm-hmm. Um, and conversely, that can make relationships much healthier.

[01:03:01] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think we'll be in a better place when we see that sort of world where you could snuggle your friend.

And the, the realities are that the gender socialization makes that more tricky for some than others. Of course, they're beautiful men in my life that I love and cherish and, and adore. And also the ways that the world has socialized women to be more relational and build more of those talking communication skills and touching skills where men are supposed to be stern and like independent and able to do it on their own.

So you cannot touch another man, other eyes that's. Gay and you're weak, right? Like, uh, I'm not endorsing that narrative, but those are the narratives we live in. And so the reality is that for most men to men touch contact is like so forbidden. And so often for men, there's only the space of getting it within a, a heterosexual dynamic with a woman and then places a ton of pressure on that.

Often if you don't have enough language to express the rest of your desires, you say. Please fuck me, please fuck me. So I feel loved, right? And so there's a whole space to that. And of course women also try to find validation in that as well. Um, but with women to women relationships, there's often this more normalizing of like, like, oh, like we could hold hands, we could snuggle, we could kiss, right?

Um, so those are real realities. And I think it's interesting, like even in my own journey, I think because I did so much research with sex, so much research with sex, where I got to this space where I was like, it makes sense based on everything I've learned, that I'm gonna want sexual novelty and my partner's gonna want sexual novelty.

And so the first time I had a threesome, it was perfectly chill, the sex part. But the second he started like romantically touching her hand, I lost my shit. And so it's interesting to think about the pieces that hit that sort of narrative. For me it was like the romance and the sensuality and the care that was way more threatening than the actual fucking right.

And so it's interesting just to get curious about ourselves, like where are those trigger points and what things do actually hit them?

[01:04:55] Roy: Yeah. Yeah. I'm also thinking about in the time, once when I went with, uh, my part, my ex-partner to a, uh, like party. Mm-hmm. It was kind of a play party, a fe party. Mm-hmm.

And there was somebody there that she knew I was, I was into, and that she was into me and we were, you know, we, there was a leaving it open that there might be some plane vote, et cetera. But I think we, um, were taking a group picture together and she noticed that I was holding this person's hand and, and she that Yeah.

[01:05:21] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly. I, I feel her. I know what that feels like. It's like, yeah, go fuck them, but do not hold their hand. Right. They're swinging. Right, right. So it's like, it's a lot to unpack. Yeah.

[01:05:33] Roy: Yeah. For sure. One thing about, uh, about this idea of like touch and non-romantic nonsexual touch is how much it is missing from our day-to-day culture.

Yeah. Um, one of the things that I started doing uh, three years ago is running, uh, play fighting workshops. Have you ever been to one of those?

[01:05:51] Dr. Nicole: No. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[01:05:52] Roy: So this is basically like fun goalless, um, wrestling. Sure. It don't get any skills. Um, there is various safety protocols to make you people safe, alter it's on padded matches on the floor, and you just go and, and connect your primal kind of self

[01:06:09] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[01:06:10] Roy: And invoke this primal sense of like physicality. And it's nonsexual. Uh, there's a lot of contact, obviously, and it can be kind of, it can be fasting and like intense. It can be very slow and flowing. You can have like a, a goal of pinning each other down. It can just be like fun tumbling around. Sure. But it essentially, it's like playing around like, like tiger cubs or like kids do that naturally.

Yeah.

[01:06:31] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:06:31] Roy: Right. But as adults, we lost that. We forgot that. And the. Experience and the reaction that I get when I see in people when they come and do that for the first time is priceless. Oh sure. I get so much rather like seeing that people often tell me it's changed their life, like they've tr it's like puts them on a path to transformation and there are many other things that can do that, but this is a space that where.

Again, there's no, you, you can fight with anybody of any gender and it's like often men fighting other men, but still enjoy that physicality and it's not because they're trying to prove anything.

[01:07:05] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:05] Roy: It's really just to be in your body in total flow

[01:07:08] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[01:07:09] Roy: And get that kind of physical contact needs met as well.

Sure. And, uh, it's, it's wonderful.

[01:07:14] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely.

[01:07:15] Roy: It's become, yeah. Very popular thing here in London. And I, you know, and I started to like, uh, collaborate with people in other cities in Europe to like, cool, do it more places. It's, it's a lot of fun and I just love it. Yeah,

[01:07:26] Dr. Nicole: yeah, absolutely. That's so fun.

I've done stuff like that with my partners, not in any way, like formalized, but done that, and it's so powerful to, um, I'm thinking about how buttoned up we are as a society, right? As adults. Like we must be formal in this way, rah, blah, rah. You know? And so to get in that space, you can like growl and push each other and roll around, like you're tapping into some of those.

[01:07:45] Roy: Um, go with the noises.

[01:07:47] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly. Like the primal, the play, right? Like tapping into these areas that are often forbidden in our day-to-day culture for good reason, right. For context, right? But to be able to safely explore them in a partnership, in a dynamic, right. This is some of the ways we can create that, uh, responsive desire in our long-term partnerships.

Yeah. Is because we feel so safe in those dynamics, we're actually able to play in some of these more, um, nuanced areas that I wouldn't recommend a pick up play situation of trying to like wrestle unless you like really have talked through that. Of course. Um, but like in a long-term partnership where you feel so safe, you can really tap into these parts of yourself, the primal, the unknown parts of yourself that often we don't tap into.

[01:08:29] Roy: Yeah. And I think that it's very important, say for women to actually connect to that part of them. Yes. That more kind of violent, aggressive part. Yes. And give us the permission to just do that, to kind of let that out. 'cause it's there, but women are socialized to always be kind and gentle and caring and, and sometimes just like letting out that anger

[01:08:47] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:08:48] Roy: In a, in a safe container is so important. And I love that we are seeing that, you know, that women connect with their right physicality and uh, and can just be and be strong.

[01:08:59] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:09:00] Roy: That's great. Yeah.

[01:09:00] Dr. Nicole: Right. Yeah. 'cause think about the breath that happens when you're doing that, like the roar, right. And you're really in it, and you're in that, compared to the 1960s of, hi Roy, my name's Nicole.

I host modern anarchy. Right? Can you think about me trying to orgasm with that level of contented, like really contracted breath? Like no, like the orgasm is really about that release, right? And so when you're really able to get there compared to the, hi, my name's Nicole. So I, I feel sad to think about how many lost orgasms, you know, on that generation of like the contraction in the body that they were experiencing.

Heartbreaking

[01:09:36] Roy: by the thought of you like doing an April Fools episode where you are doing that.

[01:09:39] Dr. Nicole: Ah, maybe I'll hi. My name is Nicole.

[01:09:41] Roy: Back to like purity culture for an episode.

[01:09:43] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Hi, I've, I've really chosen monogamy and I'm gonna save myself for Jesus.

Uh, but I think that one of the biggest transformations on that, that I'd love to like, um, close with you before we go to our closing question is just the, the transformation for me on sex. And I'm curious if you've had that sort of journey. I think coming from where I came from, it's been so radical to get to a space where sex doesn't have this like naughty, taboo, raunchy energy to it.

It feels so loving and kind that when I do hear of my partners having these. Fans of sexual relationships with other people, I'm genuinely excited for them that they're able to explore that level of pleasure in their body and pleasure with other people because I find that to be love, not something that's dirty, wrong taboo or this, and needs to be put into a sanction like level of marriage or some other form of structure to be validated.

Like I find that to be so loving and kind and caring, that you would share your time and body and your energy with someone to create pleasure. Ugh. Like my, my lens to sexuality has just changed so much. And so I'd be curious if that's something that you've experienced in your journey of polyamory.

[01:10:53] Roy: I think so very much like in a romantic sphere where I've accepted that there are no rules and I can basically design my own kind of romantic relationships, I've, I've reached the same level of understanding in, in, uh, sexuality.

And it's very much that move from a scarcity mindset to an abundant mindset.

[01:11:12] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:11:12] Roy: Like, I remember like first time of going to a play party and feeling like I have to have sex with somebody because we're at a play party. That's what people do. And you know, I don't, it, I don't think it happened the first time I went, uh, I was just too nervous.

And I think that over time I just realized that if I go with no expectation, I'm gonna have a good time. Whether something happens or not, I'm not putting pressure on myself. And there's always another sex party. So like, just like being feeling that there's a scarcity there isn't, is just gonna ruin my night.

And that abundance mindset also means that I don't have to like, have an orgasm every time. It's like I, I, I left that sense of needing a goal.

[01:11:49] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:11:50] Roy: On this journey together, we're creating this beautiful tapestry together. And there's so many components to it, but there's again, no need to be in a sexual escalator.

There's only to aim for an objective and you can just relax, relax into it and see what happens. And sometimes it's very primal and very strong. Sometimes it's very gentle and slow. I love, you know, that it can open up these opportunities to say yes to more things, to learn a whole new vocabulary of kink.

Yeah. Um, and, and, uh, and conscious connection through tantra. So I've just been saying yes to more things, exploring it and some things like connect with others, not. But yeah, my relationship to sexuality also has changed a lot, and as a result, I would say that I'm 54 now. My last decade I've had the best X of my life.

[01:12:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:12:35] Roy: Emotional connections of my life and with best relationships.

[01:12:38] Dr. Nicole: Beautiful. Beautiful. I'm so, so happy to hear that, right? That hope that it continues to get better and better as we get able to hold more intimacy, more complexity, and play with more sides of ourselves. Right? That's really such a beautiful journey and it, it reminds me a lot of, you know, in the psychedelic space, we talk about how you don't have to take five grams of psilocybin for your first dose, you know, like that.

You just don't have to do that. Throw yourself off, you know, that like, I wanna fuck at the play party. I wanna do it. It's like, you know, you can take a smaller dose and enjoy that. There are days of taking those big doses and you lose your ego and where you thought you were going with your life and you have to, you know, integrate.

Um, and then there's so much joy in, in really slowing down even to like a smaller dose, right? Um, you're able to often feel more sometimes in those smaller doses. And so I, I think about that too as like not always trying to go for the most partner is the biggest orgy scene that you could possibly fathom.

As much as my brain gets really excited about wow, that big scene, um, how can I also feel the joy of the one person scene or the, the scene with just myself and masturbation, right? And so it's like being able to feel the joy of all these parts and not just being going for that heroic five gram dose every time.

Stretch, stretch, stretch, right? And so I think when the more you learn to like, feel the pleasure of all of it, the more that you do ex. Enjoy that five gram dose all the way to the small gram. And like the same thing with sex is like there's so much pleasure, um, in all these different ways of relating.

Once you realize that you don't have to keep pushing yourself for this bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, and just to like really be present with the pleasure that is in front of you at that time, wherever that is. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Well, as we come towards the end of our time, Roy, I'll take that deep breath with you

and then I will check in and see if there's anything else that you wanna share with the listeners. Otherwise I have a closing question I can guide us toward.

[01:14:31] Roy: So I guess what I can share is that my offering generally in my day job is to see clients, whether it's individuals, couples, tryouts, who want to step up to a different level of their relationships.

Uh, they, they may be struggling and need support. They may be in a place where they feel, okay, how do we deepen it? How do we actually get more expensive? And that's where I can help. And I also see clients for. Psychotherapy and ongoing long term basis. So I do both kind of the coaching work and, and therapy work.

Yeah. And if, uh, listeners are in Europe in places like Berlin, Amsterdam, London, Brighton, then they can also check out my offerings for play fighting. Cool. Um, and then in London specifically, we, I also, um, help administer the, um, London polyamory scene and polyamory socials

[01:15:20] Dr. Nicole: Great.

[01:15:21] Roy: Or if anybody's looking for a way in, that's pretty nice way to like focus on building community, on making friends.

Um, which I always think is like the best place to start.

[01:15:30] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. I love starting with friends, taking it slow and vetting folks. That's a great idea. Yes, absolutely. Well, I'll have all of those linked in the show notes below so that way people can find that and be able to connect with you. Okay.

Alright. Well then the closing question that I have for you is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:15:56] Roy: That relationships can be successful no matter how long they last, how often you see the person, what kind of things you do with them. The successful relationship very much is about whether the two, you know, the two or more of you in that relationship, feel that it adds value and enhances their life in some way.

And that can happen even if you're with somebody for a week or a year. Right? Right. Or somebody that you're in a long distance relationship and see once a, once a year, whatever, it's like very much about do I feel reward? Do I feel enhanced from that connection? Mm-hmm. And stepping away from expecting that it has to last or we have to achieve something together that doesn't, is not what make you happy.

People need it because they need that sense of security. And what I wish people knew is that if you find security more in yourself and in your. Community and social network. You'll probably find more satisfaction also in your relationships. Mm-hmm.

[01:17:02] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. So well said, right? Deconstructing the relationship escalator, the expectations of it's all or nothing, right?

All or bust. Right. To see the joy of each relationship and what it is uniquely right. And then to be able to build that connection both within yourself and the interdependence with your community. So well said. And I feel like one of the biggest things for me has been transforming who's in that community.

The more I surrounded myself with people who have these similar values, the more it was easy to transition into that. And so I'm grateful every time that a guest comes onto the show, because, you know, we create this content and it goes out into the world. And I have listeners who, you know, tune in from parts where they, they can't find community in person.

They're in conservative states. They're in parts of the world where they really don't get to have these conversations. And so I always hold the power of what this is for other people to be able to hear this kind of consciousness and to know that this is possible. And so, I'm so grateful for you and so grateful that you shared your heart, your soul, your vulnerability, your lessons, and your wisdom, both with me and with all the listeners who are tuning in.

Hmm.

[01:18:10] Roy: It was a pleasure.

[01:18:11] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Surfing amazing. If you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast, and head on over to modern anarchy podcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I wanna thank you for tuning in, and I will see you all next week.