Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Nicole.
On today's episode, we have Juliet Barrett, Join us for a conversation about inviting more curiosity into our lives. Together we talk about the level of inertia needed to break your own reality. The divinity of a sex shop, and blowing bubbles before pegging. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy Podcast.
Hello, hello. Oh, any time I get to talk about relationship anarchy is Such a joy. I know, dear listener, you've heard me talk about my dissertation on relationship anarchy and all of the research that I have been doing to explore the phenomena, this relational practice, this philosophical practice, and I am so happy to share this conversation with you today.
Relationship anarchy is not about who you're having sex with. It is not about any sort of romantic relationships. In fact, it's about the deconstruction of the priority we place as a society on those types of relationships into a much wider community connection and intentionality. With relationships in that community, one of the relationships that is important to talk about in terms of power structures, cultural narratives to examine is religion, right?
We've had so many conversations on this podcast together about how a relationship to God, higher power impacts our sense of self and how we move about through the world. So, of course, relationship anarchy, that questioning of power structures, questioning of narratives, would be really related to a patriarchal religion like Christianity.
Mm. And the kinky part. Oh man. I just, uh, I think back to my early days of Christianity and Jesus, um, I was told that I would need to submit to the authority of my future husband because he is the head of household and because he has a direct relationship to God that I don't have. Submit to the authority of my husband.
Hmm. How kinky, right? Those power plays, but in some ways. It's not kinky at all, right? Last week's intro, I was talking about the deeper question of free will. Is there free will in purity culture when you're surrounded by these sort of beliefs and these cultural narratives, ones that were inherently harmful for me, inherently harmful for Juliette?
And go back to my conversation with Dr. Rachel Smith, right? The grooming of purity culture, is there free will in that? Was there choice? And without that, can you consent? So I would say Christianity is not kinky because There was no consent in that power dynamic, and Kink is all about the juicy, beautiful play of consensual power exchange, right, my friends?
And so, but for the episode and for the joy of the bit here, right, we talk a little bit more about the ways pain was really sensationalized within these narratives. And it has taken a long time to deconstruct those narratives and step into a place of empowerment. And relationship anarchy has been a huge piece of that for me.
I completed my doctoral research on relationship anarchy. I had so many beautiful research interviews with people in the community that were changing and inspiring me. And I decided to continue that research on the podcast so that I could share these powerful conversations with you, dear listener. And I'm inviting you and all of your community to contribute to this research, to share your voice.
On my website, modernanarchypodcast. com.
I'm inviting you to answer seven questions on relationship anarchy. What is it? How do you practice it? Why do you practice it? How does it affect your practice of intimacy? What are some of the joys? What are some of the difficulties? And what do you wish other people knew about relationship anarchy? Oh, dear listener, I am getting so many responses on this form, and it is such a joy to read how you practice relationship anarchy, how you define it, why you do this practice.
It is inspiring to me to get these responses each day, and part of the invitation to continue the research is the opportunity to have a one on one conversation with me. Where we flesh out these details more and then select interviews will be a part of a series on relationship anarchy. Dear listener, I have already recorded about four or five of these special series interviews that I'm going to be sharing with you this year.
They are so inspiring. I am being changed by each one of them. And it is. Why I wanted to pull this research into the podcast. I was just having so many good conversations with my dissertation that I couldn't share with you because of the ways that you conduct research in a academic institution and I wanted to have my own citizen science space where we could all contribute to this and have a much larger community conversation.
So if you're interested in either writing some answers out or joining me for a one on one conversation to be shared potentially on the podcast as part of this series, then head on over to modernanarchypodcast. com slash relationship anarchy. I have in the show notes the link right there for you so you can head on over and stay tuned.
This select series of relationship anarchy research interviews will be coming to you soon. And dear listener, before we dive into this episode, I want to invite you to listen to that voice that craves more for your relationships. That inner healing wisdom, your gut, the intuition that says more is possible, that calls you towards greater expansion.
Deeper connection to authenticity. I believe in the power of that voice, and the soft whispers that can become a dance of trust and evolution. And of course, in that journey, it's quite messy, dear listener, let me tell you. But that voice gets louder and louder, and the pleasure more abundant. And ever present, dear listener, I love you.
Okay. Keep doing your thing. You're great. And together we will keep learning and growing in this space. And with that, let's tune into today's episode. So then the first question I like to ask each guest is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?
Juliet: My name is Juliette Barrett, and I am a lifelong creative artist who works across many disciplines to keep figuring out how to be a person.
Yeah. Fun. And am queer. I am also a lifelong student of growth. That's just a huge value of mine that pretty much shows up in my artwork. It shows up in my day job at the plant shop. It shows up in the, the illustrations I draw, um, nature and how to facilitate healing through this study of existence is a huge part of how I relate to the world.
Nicole: Beautiful. Yeah. Mm hmm. Relationship anarchist. Yes. Which we'll get to. Yeah, yeah.
Juliet: polyamorous, relationship anarchist, reformed horse girl.
Nicole: Ooh. Is there a tattoo somewhere?
Juliet: No, there will be. There definitely will be. Oh, really? Okay. Yeah, that's gotta happen sometime. Sure. Um, and comedian. Yeah. Right now, that's a, yeah, that's a big one for me.
I would say blooming, budding comedian. Exciting. Hell yeah. Lifelong performer, but we're, we're just starting to take life a little less serious these days.
Nicole: I love that for you. Congratulations.
Juliet: Yeah, it's, uh, it's, you know, you've got to heal from religious trauma one way or the other. Sure.
Nicole: Yes. What a segue.
Tell me about it. Where does that journey, um, start for you. And I want to invite you to take the full space, if that means from childhood, from wherever that journey starts for you. I'd be curious to hear more about that.
Juliet: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. It feels weird taking space with this because it's something that took up so much space in my life.
Sure. That healing from it, often I feel It's this catch 22 of like, yeah, I want to talk about it, I want to share because this is a huge part of where I come from. And also, you don't get more of me. You know, there's that kind of scarcity, like, sad child that is like, I've worked too hard to get this far to still give my time and energy to this thing that hurt me.
But I think I'm turning a corner. And it feels really good to get to talk about it with you. So I'm excited about that. Very exciting. For me, um, religion and specifically, like, fundamental Baptist Christianity, um, which is a very specific version of Christian that believes that the Bible is literal. Oof, I was there.
Hence why it's called fundamental. Yeah. Um, it is this idea that the Bible is inherently written as a manuscript for existence. Yeah. So everything's taken literally. So for me, I grew up in that culture. Um, before, I mean, both my parents grew up in that culture before me, were raised by families that also practiced that form of Christianity, so it really was the, it is the roots of my family and ancestral legacy, unfortunately, uh, come from, you know, People say this, but like, a line of pastors, like, that's kind of, if you know, you know.
But actually? Yeah, but actually. Oh, interesting. Uh, and I was a pastor's kid. Wow. Yeah. Which is its own form of Yes, it is. Of Yes, it is. Um, seclusion and Culture in and of itself because of like the pedestalling that's involved in modern culture Being a pastor's kid feels like you are on a reality show like your reality TV show star, you know, we're like you're performing Experiences and you're performing culture for people sure, but it's all curated it's all a facade because Perfection isn't possible, and that's what Jesus requires of you, or what the church requires of you, you know, in the name of Jesus, and so that is like the stakes I was born into, and that's, my dad was a pastor till I was 11, so I was steeped in that culture, and then on top of that, the thing that I always like, Kind of double whammy just to, to give an example of like how disconnected I was from something that from, from this worldview or how steeped I was, is like, I was also homeschooled by my parents.
So I had no access to any other ideology than what was presented to me as, as true until I was like a young, uh, a preteen. I really went through life very. secluded because I didn't go to school. Um, I didn't have activities outside of the church. Yeah. And when I was at the church, I was working as a part of the kind of mechanics of making sure that chairs were set up and Bibles were put and just really labor.
A lot of it was labor. Yeah. In the name of God, right? Right. And so I didn't actually have access to community or pleasure because those things weren't seen as a good use of your time, you know, like playing as a kid was like, you should be obedient and supporting your parents because we're following this ancient text, this patriarchal ancient text that's saying, you know, you must be seen but not heard.
You must be silenced in order to be Appropriate and then what that looked like for me and from like a cultural standpoint is like Like I would go to summer camp, but it wouldn't be co ed. So like it was only Other kids but because I was a pastor's kid. I was like essentially Siloed because I was weirder than the weird kids at that point, like all of them went to public school.
They might have been, you know, immersed in fundamental Christianity and like also wearing culottes if you know, you know, right, exactly. Remember gaucho pants? Sure. Those are the only appropriate versions of shorts that Fundamental Baptist wears. Yeah. So the idea is like, girls don't wear pants. Sure. Um, you don't.
Wow, we're deep in this. Yeah, it's deep. It feels like, I tell people, if you've ever seen an Amish person, it's like a step aside from that. Sure. But pretty similar in like dress code. Sure. So like, no co ed swimming. When I swam, I had to wear like full, uh, I had to wear a full shirt and a full, like, Yeah.
Dress situation.
Nicole: Yeah. I almost went to Liberty University. I thought about going there. And then I had seen the massive dress code. And I was like, what?
Juliet: It's wild. Yeah. It's, and that's considered liberal. Like, that is not, like, in, in the place I come from, those people are, On the bad side. Yeah. Shit. Jesus.
Yeah.
Nicole: You were deeper in than I was. Oh man. Man.
Juliet: Wait, so why did you consider going to Liberty?
Nicole: Cause I was dating someone who was very fundamentalist. And so at the time I was influenced by their father who was like, you should be going to Liberty. That's like where we're really teaching like the good stuff and getting away from the liberal agenda.
Juliet: Ah. So. That is really close. You were really close.
Nicole: Yeah, I was really close. But I couldn't, I couldn't even do, yeah, I mean, everything like, yeah, I couldn't do a dress code. Are you kidding me to work out? Like I had to work out with wearing things covered?
Juliet: What were some of the things on the list?
Nicole: Jesus, I don't remember. I just remember knowing that like I was going to have to cover my shoulders or something to go run. And as a soccer player, I was like, are you kidding me? I've like grown my whole life like running outside. You wear a sports bra Yeah, that was not gonna work. And that's why that did not happen.
Juliet: Honestly, but that's crazy to think. You dodged, oh wow.
Nicole: Yeah, that's wild to think from your world that is liberal and like slutty.
Juliet: Oh yeah. That's crazy. No, I tell people like I grew up in a cult. Like. Yeah. Fully, like, you have no access to outside culture, you are indoctrinated with an ideology that's exceptionally oppressive, you are, you know, beholden to two or three male figures as a representation of truth, like just fundamental truth.
Like it really was brainwashing. Totally. And when you're also, uh, disconnected from even the people attending the church, but are, are seen as an example of those ideologies at their best. It's so extreme. It's genuinely, uh, the deprogramming has taken me. So much work and energy and I mean relationship anarchy has been one of the most healing Tools for me.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Do you want to say more on how?
Juliet: Yeah, when you have your autonomy so deeply rejected Growing up in a culture that says you are inherently flawed You are inherently Embarrassing, right? Your body is embarrassing to the world, right? Or the message that you are property, you know, property of God, that you are property of a spouse, you're property of the church, right?
That like your time, your energy, your spirit is, is beholden to this greater power. It robs you of boundaries, it makes no space for independent thought, critical thinking, and relationship anarchy puts me in a place where I am constantly turning back to myself as sovereign and the power on what is true for me and requires me to stay in relationship to that question so that I'm not, I'm not letting all of that ideology control my growth.
And I don't think that you can heal from something if you just run from it. And so for me, being in relationship to something that antagonizes That conditioning is the only way I'm actually going to deprogram myself from those beliefs, from that belief system. Like the, just the deep shame, there's so much shame that comes in that culture.
Just shame for existing, for joy. I couldn't dance. I wasn't allowed to watch TV. I hadn't listened to something that wasn't jazz or classical music or a hymn. Until, like, sixth grade. Yeah. Like, Britney Spears was not an option. Duh, really? Absolutely not.
Nicole: Dang. No. I loved Britney spears.
Juliet: Right? Yeah. I missed such, uh, like, literally all of culture.
Any time, I always feel like such a fraud any time I relate to something in culture. It's just come through so much hard work. Sure. Sure. It wasn't like I, you know, like, I didn't, I can. Say so many lyrics to, like, the Spice Girls, but like, I didn't actually love the Spice Girls, like, the joy I have from it, from them, is more about the connection I get to have with you in the moment, I couldn't tell you anything about the Spice Girls era, like, I am so Irrelevant to my own generational, like, touchpoint.
Nicole: Sure. I couldn't watch Harry Potter. That was, that was witchcraft. So there were some lines here, but like, Britney Spears was cool with my mom.
Juliet: I love that. Yeah. Did you end up reading? Like, is that, see,
Nicole: I never did. Okay. So yeah. So yeah, now I don't have like the whole Harry, Harry Potter connection.
Juliet: Now JK Rowling is a fucking TERF.
Nicole: Apparently. I don't even know the whole story, I've only heard pieces.
Juliet: I'm happy for you. Yeah, I tried to stay. That was like a happy accident for Mom . Yeah, totally, totally. Wait, so did you, your mom was your mom Mormon, but you weren't like my mom. How did that
Nicole: Yeah, my sister converted when I was in college. Okay. But she was back home, my younger sister, and then her connection to the church drew more people to support my family when we were going through various hardships. And so then my mom, like, really got a lot of support from them and then converted and then is now apart. So then, yeah, my mom and my sister are both Mormon, and I would say I grew up pretty, like, non denominational, but then dated someone who was very fundamental, and then that really, like, pushed things into it.
Juliet: And what so with the Harry Potter thing. Yeah, that wasn't due to Mormonism from your mom.
Nicole: That was Christianity That was just my mom's belief around like yeah witchcraft and that being part of the devil and stuff What I think is interesting is like I've been in one of my like group psychology classes like I'm sitting around in a room with other therapists right in training other psychologists in training and we got on to the Topic of religion and I started talking about my faith forever and the way with which you were talking about how like how much it creates shame and problematic things and I would say like is a big source of like my connection to anxiety as a young kid.
Um, and I would love to say more on that. They're like, I don't really understand. They're like, what do you like? Why? Like, it seems like it's not that bad. I think they weren't like conceptualizing how painful being in this. Um, religion can be because it's not where they've been. So they don't know to the depth and, and like there is obviously like a whole smattering of people that have a relationship to God and Christianity that is not anywhere close to what you've experienced or what I've experienced, right?
I think maybe they come from that lens. So it's like interesting for me to think that there are therapists who like wouldn't know all of this. Oh yeah. You'd have to explain to them. Yeah. And teach your therapist about why this is problematic, you know.
Juliet: Yeah. And like, I think. That's, I often find the most healing with people who just have been there. Done it, yep, exactly. Because then, there's just a common understanding of like, the level of inertia it takes to break your own reality. Yeah, exactly.
Nicole: Like, that's how we get to relationship anarchy, because you just start deconstructing everything.
Juliet: Exactly. You're like, what is truth? Once you get the gears going, you can't slow down, because it, it all starts to crumble.
Yeah, it does real fast. And it also takes work to do that. It takes work. And at a certain point, at least for me with like religion, with religion, I was like, well, if this thing isn't true, like if everything I've been taught isn't true, what else is it? You know, like it kind of put me in a fuck it or find out reality because, well, and for me as a kid, so what really crumbled that was that my dad, as a pastor, I grew up as this pastor's kid.
So restricted and then and and like moralized towards hatred and judgment and shame as like. The way to relate to the world, right? Always looking down on other people, always judging, always trying to convert people. I mean like, and that, those are the only emotions, right? A lot of anger, and then my dad came out as gay when I was 15, and totally was just like, blew all the logic, blew all All of the truth blew everything up.
And I'm so grateful to him for that because it showed me that you can blow anything up and still survive and actually find a new version of yourself on the other side. And I happen to be collateral damage in his growth, but his growth demonstrated to me, the world is not going to fall apart if you start finding and identifying better versions of yourself.
And it might be scary and it might be really hard. But it's worth it, because what you find on the other side is a deeper connection, and it's a deeper connection to yourself, to your people, to pleasure, I mean, and who doesn't want to have more pleasure?
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah. I mean, honestly. Totally. It's just such a hard journey to go through.
Juliet: Yeah, but that's why the pleasure is necessary. Well, totally. It's like, we fucking got here. Let's have a good time.
Nicole: Totally. I mean, man, I'd want to talk to your dad, too.
Juliet: He has a book. Okay, yeah. Yeah, I can plug his book. Yeah, because
I'm just like, ooh. It's like, it's not my story to tell. Ooh, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah. No.
Nicole: But, I mean, powerful. Because, I mean, I don't know how you identify. today sexuallY?
Juliet: Yeah. I identify, um, genderqueer, genderfluid, trans, they, them, babe, with a kink for exhibitionism. Hell yeah. It's a comedy workshop, really. Yeah, yeah. Uh, and a masochistic penchant for growth.
Nicole: Mmm. The self care aisle is your
Juliet: I'm always edging my own reality.
Nicole: Do you take breaks?
Juliet: I'm learning. Yeah, okay.
Nicole: I'm learning. Me too. Yeah.
Juliet: Yeah. Definitely. You can't grow in every direction at once, and that's something That my virgo rising doesn't like to hear sure. Sure.
Always on the run, always on the run. But yeah, I mean, I think there's just a lot of the people on the podcast have written in to say, like, how meaningful it's been to have a space where someone talks about the spiritual trauma of this.
Nicole: Right? I, in a lot of ways would accredit my anxiety from my religious experience. Yeah. Like, for what I was taught was that I'm inherently sinful, I'm constantly going to sin, and I need to be watching my thoughts because there's, in a fundamental lens, right, it says that even thoughts of hatred is murder in the eyes of the Lord.
Yeah. Yeah. So then when you. It's wild. Yeah. So when you read that, that means that even if you think about hating someone, you've committed murder in the eyes of God, which means you need to repent. And if you don't repent, you know where you're going? To hell. Where you will be burned alive for all of eternity.
And God forbid I die today and I have not repented to God. So that means that every single day I'm constantly in my head going, okay, did I say anything? Did I do this bad? Oh my God. Oh my God. I'm God. I'm God. Yeah. Talk about creating anxiety. From a young age, I'm constantly scanning my thoughts for the one wrong one that could send me to hell.
Juliet: Yeah. Oof. Yeah. Oof. Let's just take a moment for that.
Nicole: I know. I'm like, I don't like that. I don't like that. I would not teach a child that. No. I would not.
Juliet: It just puts you in a constant state of fear. You just learn how to oscillate in your fear zone, and that becomes your orientation to relationship, to relating.
And then you're not relating, you're cut off from everything, and it's isolating. And it's just really miserable.
Nicole: Yeah, some people find community, though, in it, though, right? Like, then that's when you feel people come together and be like, Oh God, I've been, I've been so sinful lately, I'm praying to the god Like, remember being in the community?
Juliet: Like, that's what it was like. That's why, that's like the penance, like the whole concept of penance. Like, and like really, like, loving. I mean, the lack of boundaries in Christianity really creates space for a lot of kinky connection because you can't be visible in your joy, but you can be visible in your pain.
Sure. And so you find the visibility and you start enjoying it because it's the thing that's rewarded. It's the, and like, that's kinky as fuck! Fuck!
Nicole: Damn, you know what that is? That is at that is the Sunday church when you are there with all of your people and then you start to cry with that one song.
Juliet: Like, oh my god, I am so It's so horny! I am so miserable that God is forgiving me and I'm crying right now. And I'm feeling the spirit move me. Yes! Absolutely.
Nicole: Damn. So interesting. I never really thought about it that way.
Juliet: Spirit, take me in. Because I've been so bad. Please. Cleanse me with your blood. Like, blood fetish anyone? Come on. Interesting. We're eating the body of Christ. Like, carn the carnality is It's everywhere. It's funny. It's in the language. If you ever listen to a prayer song, prayer songs are so horny.
Nicole: Yeah. I love it. It's so interesting. Such a frame to look at that whole experience through.
Juliet: I mean, to me it's like how I cope with it. Yes. Like that's my healing. Totally. Like kink has offered me a way to understand power dynamics. Sure. That like the, the power dynamics of like God and Christians. Mm-Hmm. , like the absolute devotion is so kinky. Mm. Like the, the dominant and submissive, like the way the devotion is seen as being submissive is inherently submissive.
Mm-Hmm. . It's very much like what you explore in the kink world, of like, surrendering your autonomy, you know, maybe not your autonomy, I want to take that back actually, like you're not surrendering your autonomy to kink. Playfully, with lots of consent, maybe we are. Yeah, but the surrender and the permission to be able to share your autonomy with someone else in an active connection.
Yeah. Is what people come from when they're singing to Jesus and they're lifting their arms on the fucking stage, like, truly worshiping because they're getting off. I'll speak for myself. I was getting off on a fantasy, a fantasy of what I think God is, of what I think a perfect reality is, like getting off on a delusion because that's the only thing that I was taught was valuable, right?
Was like worshiping a figment of my imagination as. a better reality than the one that I've been given, which, man, that puts you in a constant struggle with, with your reality of like, then, yeah, why are you here? What is the point? You know? And I think that's really where religion is a pipeline into things like compulsive Monogamy, because it's like, what else is there if like, this is, this will never be enough because I'm always edging for big daddy God in the sky, then, then I get married and I procreate in the name of God and I convert other people to also believe in this thing.
Nicole: Yes. Obviously. Like for me, when I think about these things, I think about it and the fact that like, we're all. Storytellers and we live through lenses and frames of meaning like existentially So yeah Like if you come through a path of lineage that then talks about this is the reason for why we have sex, right?
Which is not pleasure it is to procreate and it creates this, you know, sort of subsequent narratives of yeah What is possible and how you connect in that way? It's just some people like thrive there So that's the thing is like some people And this is, I think, where I, where I get up to my edge of, like, comfort, I think, talking about these things, like, in a cultural way of, like, holding space for the people that are enjoying themselves and finding, like, a beautiful narrative that they're enjoying of creating that monogamous frame where you create this and God constructed this and you're doing all that and it feels really good to them and then, like, this other, like, feminist queer side of myself that looks at the lens of it being so deeply patriarchal, right?
Like father, son, male at the head of the household. How do we hold nuance for like the different ways in which people do connect to that like narrative of God in a way that maybe isn't as patriarchal as what we experienced. It's so it gets really hard for me to have nuanced conversations about religion because like I want to respect the spaces of people that feel good and feel thrive and thriving in it.
But then I also do ask deeper questions of like, Is there still suffering in there that maybe they're not aware of in the same way that like when we live under fucking capitalism We're all suffering in a way that a lot of people don't even think about because it's hard to imagine any other world How do you talk about these things in a way?
Everything is nuanced is usually what I end up hitting that everything is nuanced people Jesus
Juliet: Speaking from my perspective I feel very strongly and I feel very convicted because I had really extreme experiences. Yeah, and I'm not going to protect anyone from my experience. Yeah, I It also doesn't have to be yours.
Totally. And it doesn't mean because I feel so strongly about mine that I'm condemning yours. Yeah. If it feels like condemnation, then my invitation is what feels true about what I said. Sure. Right? And If it doesn't feel like condemnation, then maybe we can connect over the really hard stuff, the stuff that is extreme, that does need to be pointed out.
Because I lived my life being told to be quiet and I lived my life not questioning and not, like, exposing things and being passive aggressive about what I saw was oppressive to myself, to other people. And. And part of my healing is speaking up about it because that is where I came from. And I still know that there are spaces like that that are creating harm.
And if it makes you happy, like I went to college with this huge group of, I was still Christian in college. Like, same. Yeah. It wasn't until after college that I just fully started questioning everything, everything, but I needed that safety net in college. And I found this really great community of people and.
Many of them, you know, had kids, like, senior, you know, like, married and went to so many weddings and have, and have found the kind of security that you're talking about in their lives and I don't begrudge anyone joy or happiness, but I do Want to exist as a disruption to the idea that that happiness is the standard or guarantee for everyone.
And that's probably the best. And that is the pressure. And that is the expectation that is touted to you by. The religion, the practice of the religion. So if you're not regularly disrupting that, I have a really hard time trusting what you call as happiness for something that I want to relate to. And that's okay.
Your happiness can look different than mine. But then also, like, how does our oppression look different? How does our relationship to power look different? I think it's all connected.
Yeah. One, thank you for sharing that. Your lived experience gives you positionality to call out some of the shit, right?
Nicole: Yeah. And that's always what I try to say, too, is like, when I would get pushback from my classmates about this on this sort of stuff, in like cultural context, I'd always be like, I don't know, but from my experience, I went through shit, right? So like, being able to name that with that passion is so needed.
Not that I should be here to deem anything ethical or unethical, to be very clear, but like this idea of when someone's in a religion where it's inherently unsafe to be gay, do we have the right to condemn it because we know that inherently there'll be a chunk of people who are gay in that population who aren't able to be themselves because of that?
Or do we sit back culturally and just say that's their culture and they get to do what they're gonna do?
Juliet: Well, I can't say for the culture because I am of no, like, I can speak from, this is where relationship, relationship anarchy actually takes a lot of pressure off of me. I have to be with the culture.
I have to be working from my place of autonomy and one of my values is compassion and generosity. And a huge part of that is because I need that for myself. If I'm not giving that to you, I'm not giving it to me. And I certainly didn't fucking get that from God or what I was given as a, as an example of what God.
Looked like so that's how I connected the divinity in me is like is Am I showing up in compassion today? Am I unwriting that shame that was? It's so entrenched in the way I saw my body and the way I heard my voice. And if I'm doing that, then regardless of where you come from, what culture you're in, what religion you're practicing, if I can tap into my own compassion, then I can be present with you in that moment and find our mutual humanity.
Sure. So that I'm not speaking from a place of my trauma, that I'm not speaking from a place like I can do that on this podcast because I'm here to talk about shit, right? Yeah. But I'm not gonna take this dialogue and spew it at the first Christian that I have coffee with, right? Because that's not why I'm there.
I'm not talking at them, right? If they want to know my story and my feelings, I'm happy to share that. I think that's where relationship anarchy puts me in relationship to how I'm orienting to Every interaction to every person from a place of my deepest integrity, right? What is the kindest, most generous way I can care and tend for myself in a way that reflects back in all of my interactions with my web of people, right?
Whether I consider you a lover or I consider you a friend or a friend lover, it puts everyone on a, on a, in an equal, a place of equality that Asks me to be responsible for what I'm bringing to the table and let the rest go. Sure. Um, because I can't control them and that's not love. Sure. And so I want to be acting from a place of love and that means showing up in, in the fullness of my love for myself and compassion and generosity as much as I'm capable.
And then being open to what you're bringing. Mm hmm. And then we can go from there and we can co create it. Those other factors of our identity will play into it, but at least then it's a dialogue and it's a conversation and I'm not just showing up with my judgments of where you come from because of the things that hurt me.
Nicole: Sure. And I don't even come with judgment. I guess I come with like a desire to save. Save in this like really weird, you know, fucked up sort of like a reverse savior complex. Yeah, let me come back and save you. Like it makes me sad when I think about my family, like my mom and my sister, right? Like being in a religion where like masturbating is a sin.
Okay. You know, like that. I do know. Like that, that. Yeah, as a sex educator and someone who would claim to advocate for the benefits of, like, having bodily autonomy over creating pleasure and the sense of autonomy that that would create in, like, even a relationship anarchy identity sense of self that I adamantly strongly believe in, like, and, like, the pressure that that can create in a relationship where then, like, you can only have it in just, you know, like, I I don't even have judgments.
I feel like I have this desire to be, like, Hey, you know, it can be so much better, but then, but then, but then that's shitty to say better. So then that's where I'm like, yes. So that's where I'm like, culture. I don't know.
Juliet: It puts you in a place of disconnection. It puts you in a place of disconnection because you're inherently rejecting and to me, that's judgment. Like condescension is judgment in my mind, even if it's kind, like if it's trying to be, come from a place of like. What we would say like good intentions,
Nicole: but I disagree because I'm like, what's my job as a therapist? When I see things that are harmful and I'm like, hey,
Juliet: it's not condescending they are paying for that.
Nicole: Yes That's true, that's true, that's true. I do think that like in life though We can see things maybe that other people can't see about themselves, right?
Juliet: And like oh for sure and that's That's the tricky thing. But yeah. But like, do you have the trust in the relationship developed to be able to, to speak into that?
Nicole: Well, the reality is that like coming to my sister and being like, Hey, that shouldn't be a sin doesn't land, you know, that's not, that's not, well, cause it's a statement.
Juliet: Yeah, exactly. That doesn't land. It's not a point of connection. No, exactly. So that's why you just build a relationship where there's a safe space to talk about it.
That's why I think values are so much more interesting to talk about than like even the word relationship. Anarchist. Anarchist. Sure. Anarchist. Yeah, go ahead. Even. Even, or the term relationship anarchist, it rejects all conformity and also it invites Anytime we, we claim an identity factor, it invites assumptions, it invites projection, and that's fine.
We use it just as like, a way to ping and get an echolocation back that hopefully resonates a little bit deeper. Yeah. But we can't rely on the, the buzzwords to do the work for us. And so I don't often first identify as a relationship anarchist because I'd rather just show you how I work. I'd rather just show up in love.
I'd rather just show up as a person who wants to invest in you or is open. I'd rather show up in my boundaries and communicate that and just like teach you through. How the fuck I am, before we even get to the language, because I have found so many, and what I've learned through past relationships is like language doesn't mean anything if the values aren't in common, so like, like with your sister, I'm like, okay, yeah, forget toys, forget all of that, but like, how do you all connect over pleasure?
What's something that you can do together that brings pleasure? that you can mutually just connect over like, but isn't pleasure great? Sure. So how do we find another way to that same feeling?
Nicole: Well, I, well, yeah, yes. Yes, absolutely. And then continue to go from there. Cause like, I remember she did come to Chicago with me one time and we drove past the pleasure chest. Yeah. Yeah. And she's like, oh my God, is that a sex shop? And I was like, Yeah. She's like, can we go in? I was like, yeah, we can. Yeah. So like, you know, all the doors are there, you know,
Juliet: I have introduced many people to their first sex shop.
Nicole: That's good. That's a good, that's, that's divine. See, that is divine. I continue to try to step into a space of seeing my eroticism as deeply spiritual, and it is a part of my like, life force energy and how I feel like when I'm deeply connected to my erotic, I'm usually in a playful stage and I'm wanting to like, engage with the world and like, have interactions like that.
And so like, for me, I'm trying to continue to like, reflect on the ways that I could understand that through like, a truly divine lens of like, Like, you taking someone to a sex shop is like a portal that maybe they felt unsure of stepping into, and with your support and your relationship, they're unlocking parts of their psyche that maybe they haven't explored before. Like, that, I don't know, I find that divine in many different ways, but.
Juliet: How do you, when you said, like, I'm trying to, I see, I forget the exact language you used, but I see, oh, pleasure is deeply spiritual. Oh yeah, totally. I guess then, like, what does spiritual mean to you?
Nicole: Yeah, that's a good question. Well, cause I definitely let go of religion, right?
So I definitely knocked that one out, which is like structured and organized, right? So then for me, I have, I spend a lot of time like thinking about what's spiritual. Spirituality means and then I reflected on that like a Rubik's Cube a million times and then I was like What if it was as simple as like the things that bring my spirit joy?
Does it have to be more complicated than that? My spirituality is going to go see Maggie Rogers play, you know, a set. And I'm just in it. I'm having that. Or I'm at, dancing at Odesza. And I'm having this moment in the crowd where everyone's, you know, dancing to the beat and the music is over us. feel the quote unquote spirit of the Lord.
You know what I used to feel when I was at church listening to music, a little in the kinky realm of feeling shame about my life, but that same sort of embodiment of sensation and connection and meaning making and I don't know, it brings my spirit joy. Like, does it have to be more complicated than that?
Juliet: I don't think, I don't think it has to be more complicated. I think it's more like. How do you want it to provide meaning for you, right? And if joy is something that you want to if you want to get closer to yeah, then Associating that is a way to just essentially I think I boil down spirituality to like deep presence Mmm, that's it. Just like deep deep deep deep presence. Yeah, the longer you can be with it the deeper you go. Sure. And it can be anything. It can be myself. It can be silence. It can be, you know, nature, like co regulation with nature, with other people. Sure. Through connection. Because also, for me, like, deep presence also invites being present with what's there regardless of whether it's positive or not.
Like, breaking this binary of, like, the spiritual bypassing of it all, around Sure, you can name that, yeah. Sad. That joy and happiness and pleasure are all, like, what spirituality is, right? Maintaining that is the point of spirituality. Staying gratitude. Right. Exactly. And no shame to any of that. Like, none of this is, like, contrary to, but what I've noticed for myself is that if I can just boil it down to deep presence, then I can be with whatever's there, whether it's, like, my grief, and my joy, and, you know, my pleasure.
Lots of conflict. There's actually a lot of conflict in deep presence because there's a lot going on. And I think the more I grow my capacity to be with my inner conflict, the more spiritual I feel. Because I can be present with it all and be in it and be with it without judging it, without shutting it down.
But I do think that takes practice and for me, that's where like the idea of spirituality has come back to like offering healing to me outside of my religious trauma is being able to return back to myself and be present in the moment And observe what's happening in me so that I'm able to choose how I'm in relationship to everything else.
Absolutely. Huge. Yeah. That deep autonomy, that deep presence. Because ultimately, my lens of the world is what I'm going to see. Sure. And I'm responsible for that. Yes. Yeah. That's what I've learned. Yeah.
Nicole: And continue to learn every day when we mess up.
Juliet: Right? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. For me, what also has been healing is like allowing.
Then those things to become joy because I'm totally so used to the pain and I'm so like Westboro Baptist that shit like it's just pain and anger baby Growing a capacity for pleasure and for joy and for, for being able to be witnessed in those things is such a way to be connected to each other that I don't get a lot of, right? Like, like, yeah, you have to go to a concert, right? To be able to, like, Not to be able to, but socially, like, where are there mass groups of people that are just jumping at the same time or the unity that it brings?
I think that connection, more spaces like that are definitely where I find healing outside of ideology. Sure.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'm always talking about how like the More we can be in connection to our body and our experience, the better we can show up with other people around us. So like being able to have that connection to like knowing how you're feeling, what somatic experiences are coming up for you during a conversation, you know, or something like that.
Um, and being so crucial to be in connection with other people. I even look at spirituality as, um, when I'm cooking. And I'm, you know, making my little art for the day, right? Like, my cooking is my art here. And like, I guess this is kind of where, like, my yoga background comes in. And like, a lot of what you were saying was reminding me of my practice of Buddhism, which I feel like I don't know enough about to speak about in any capacity.
A lot of it being, like, presence and not necessarily judgment towards specific emotions. Presence.
Juliet: Yeah. Yeah. Do you identify as a Buddhist?
Nicole: I don't. I read books on it and I like it, but I've never gone I don't know how I don't know what the box is to hop in to identify that, but I read books on it and I like it.
Interesting. Mindfulness. I'm always talking about mindfulness. Mindfulness is like essentially a like a westernization of a Buddhism, cognitive behavioral therapy and the whole like, they're like, here's this practice of doing this, which, which like deeply has its lineage into Buddhism. So like when I'm talking about mindfulness, someone could say like, I am doing that.
I don't want to claim an identity that I haven't done enough, like some sort of research to claim into, but I do teach yoga and they have a lot of the similar sort of concepts around breath and presence and then along with the sutras and stuff.
Juliet: So how does, um. How does relationship anarchy play into, like, your yoga practice?
Nicole: Mmm, yeah. When I think about relationship anarchy, there should probably be a good idea to define, like, what we're each talking about with that, right? Yeah. Because we'll have our own things with it. That's true. Which makes me think about my, like, dissertation research of, like, doing those sorts of questions.
Um, I believe that we grow in relationships. I believe that the self is created in relationships. So, like, when I think about relationship anarchy, I think about my connections to lots of different things. I try to, like, stay away from this, like, sense of the individual and come back to the reality that, like, the individual is created through relationships with other people.
I do believe an individual exists that has, like, gone through an existential lineage. Like, you have gone through a storyline that is very different than mine. Right at the core of who I am is created through all of the relationships I have, my mentors, my friends, my family, like all those people are the mirrors, right?
That create who I am. So I believe that I'm created in connection in relationship, right? So something like yoga, just purely, just in general, when, when I teach yoga, I show up in a space and I lead an experience with other people in a room where we breathe and we have this. And like, that creates a part of my identity.
Like I see myself as doing this and having this experience with people, which is interesting. So then my sense of self is like created through that, which I always try to sit with, but I don't know, beyond that we could also take the lens of relationship to self. It helps me to be present with my body and my awareness and has like, deeply benefited my sexual pleasure realm, like, to be able to like, build that practice, because I'm always thinking that when I'm working with people who are like, struggling to have good sex, it's like, well, like, how long can I have you or ask you to sit in your body and just feel, like, how long can you sit in your body and just feel before the mind starts to race, wonder, go?
And like, usually it's Little to none. Yeah. The practice of yoga and being with my breath and trying to be there is a deepening of presence, like you said, so then it changes how I show up with people and, yeah, how, the pleasure that is possible. And I also really love the fact that Or not, I don't love it.
But like, yes, this continued, like, realization that the deeper you step into pleasure and feel pleasure more, the deeper you can feel pain, right? Like, it's not like we get to pick or choose the emotions that we feel and the more you connect to them, the more you feel them, right? Maybe hopefully we handle them, you know, with more skills and tools, et cetera.
But like, damn, you feel them, you know, I, and I wouldn't trade it for anything.
Juliet: No. Yeah. Deepening for sure. I think grief is. It's the biggest, uh, has been the biggest teacher for me in that, of like, how do you find yourself when you feel so immersed in a single feeling? But in the process of being immersed in grief, I found all the other emotions.
And I realized that grief was actually just a knotted up ball of all the other emotions that I hadn't been feeling and forced me to be in relationship to them because the pain was so great that it unmasked any coping mechanism I had. To hide from how to feel. Sure. And. That surrender to me has been a huge teacher in how to be with the emotion and be with myself and find pleasure in that.
Because if you do it long enough, you get bored and you're like, well, I'm the only one here. I might as well have a good time, you know, like I might as well find a way to enjoy this or maybe not even enjoy it, but to find. A comfort in it, you know, it requires so much of you that you have to explode to find other pieces.
Pain, grief, they explode you, right, they explode you into these little tiny pieces of shrapnel and you have to collect those pieces back and or you find more versions of yourself reflected in the pieces and the shattering. And so, although it might not be the same capacity you had before. It's a new version of the thing, of the joy, of the pleasure, of the pain.
And that allows you to be with it longer because you're able to identify. new reflections of yourself in the broken pieces of who you were before that experience, before the great pain, whatever it is, you know, but I also, like you said earlier, like I have to be careful that I'm not since state sensationalizing pain, it can be a really.
It's a very slippery way to get into, as white people, a place of victimization, and also kind of like, yeah, joy in being the victim. And that's also a huge part of evangelical Christianity and growing up religious in predominantly white churches.
Nicole: In progressive spaces at times.
Juliet: Well, yeah. Oh, definitely in progressive spaces. Yeah, absolutely. 100%. I don't even identify as a progressive. Okay. Um, no. No, I definitely identify. Heavily radical.
Nicole: I don't even know the difference. What's the difference between the two would you say?
Juliet: Well, that's the thing is like it depends on how people relate to it. For me, like my radicalism shows up in my confrontation with the status quo.
Sure. It shows up in my heavy belief in interdependence. Love that. As an orientation to healing like interdependence or else. Relationship anarchy. Yeah. Yeah.
Exactly. Exactly. It's not just about Who you're fucking. For me it's very much, so much more about like, what is my orientation to how I'm showing up in the world.
Sure. Because that's my job. That's, that's, I got one job and it's to be here and be me. Yeah. And the rest of it is up to interpretation. Sure. Yeah. So, it's. I think it all gets to be a grand adventure and a great experience, but if I'm always trying to like find my pleasure in the pain, I'm also looking for the pain.
That puts me in a place where I'm, I'm looking for the thing that I'm expecting, right? I'm expecting the trauma, I'm expecting it, but then that takes it out space for imagination and play and imagination and plays where we're going to find. The world that we want to build, like abolition, abolition requires imagination.
And if you're putting yourself constantly in relationship to your pain, then you are, are defining your reality as inherently existent through pain. And not only does that put you in, in a, it can put you in a victim mentality. It robs your curiosity of. What else if not this right like if life doesn't have to be pain sure then you're not questioning What else it could be right the joy the pleasure the curiosity of what else right?
Nicole: Which is maybe easier to escape from depending on like where you're at Yeah, where you're at to the proximity of the pain point right the trauma like it's it's really hard to catch that when you've been In that constantly do you even know that there's another space slash like what sort of pain are we talking about?
Like it's hard to like get into a space of even like disassociating from it If it's like constantly the society pushing on you So like whatever sort of context we have it in we have to have this space where we can acknowledge like the reality of pain and also The ability to dream and see a different frame, right?
Juliet: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Like it's tricky. Yeah, you can find pleasure in the pain, but for me it has to always be nuanced. Yeah, right? Like that's where I can only be responsible for me. Yeah, and so I know what I need to heal. I know my triggers. I know my traumas. I know the shit that I'm afraid of and it takes a lot of work just to be with that.
Everything else I can let go of and trust that, like, if I'm showing up in compassion and generosity. Also, like, I have to be fucking messy to grow. You have to be messy.
Nicole: Yeah, well, that's what I was gonna say. We don't know where all of your traumas are. No, no, you have to be willing to be messy. Can I push you?
Juliet: Yeah. And, like, And so that, if you can find joy in the mess and just be like, yeah, I'm going to fuck up.
Nicole: I hate, I told you I hate that part though. I'm a perfectionist. I don't want to mess up.
Juliet: Perfectionism is only a way to disconnect you from reality.
Nicole: I'm just kidding. Yeah, no, I know. I try. I've been working on it.
Juliet: And there's no fun or imagination in it either.
Nicole: I know. But I wanna, I'm, I want love and I have to get love by being perfect. No! I know, I know. I'm working on it.
Juliet: This is the part where I'm like, We should go to the sex shop.
Nicole: Hey, I feel very confident there. It's when I'm doing co therapy with, like, my supervisors in the room. And I'm trying to, like, do therapy with a therapist. You know, like, your boss. And I'm just like Yeah. And I go silent, and I like don't, I don't, I just, oh, I'm working on it, let me tell you that. I'm, I'm getting better, it is my intention, and I'm actually in a safe space where I can do it. Right. You know? I do. You care a lot. That's what I think about values, like when we care so much, and I want to do such a good job, it is actually paralyzing me, you know what I mean? And I think like, It's like, woof, gotta take the jump.
Juliet: Yeah, like then like, what's motivating the desire, right, like what, I wanna do a good job. What does a good job mean? Does that mean like, you know, are you taking care of the other person? Does that mean that like, you're getting rewarded? Like, I think, I think perfectionism, it's like well intended. It's super well intended. And there are also, like full disclaimer, like so many, like mental health hurdles to get over to like, perfectionism is just a symptom of so many other things, and like that's personal, right, like, I know, like for me, my perfectionism can often come out of like my relationship to like, how I cognitively process, and Proving to myself that I'm not struggling, right? Like there, so like, that's where my perfectionism comes from.
I feel shame about like not being able to perform. And so I'm trying to mask it in order to believe, you know, I'm flawed because I can't process at this level or I can't, you know, switch gears or whatever it is I'm struggling with. I usually use perfection as a way to believe that I can outthink my way of giving myself love.
You know, my sibling says this to me a lot as like a reflection, so maybe it'll help you. But they always say like, when you're giving 50, it looks like 100 to everybody else, right? And like, not that it matters what everybody else thinks. Sure. But that always. Takes me and puts me in relationship when I think about that.
I'm like, oh Zoom the fuck out get out of your head And just think about like instead of me me me me me being super internalized and really neurotic about my own psychosis Usually it's in relationship to someone else right like like you mentioned your boss It's like how can you zoom out and think like?
This person is offering me compassion. This person is, is offering me generosity just by being here and being present. How can I trust that instead of anticipating judgment or a lack thereof if I don't perform at this imaginary level that I think that they have for me? It's, it's placing a lot of expectation on them, too.
Nicole: Sure. I know. Yeah. Yeah. When I'm theorizing, like, human nature and stuff, I'm always thinking about the ways that we need connection, and so we're always looking for connection. And so, like, something like perfectionism to me, or how I'd understand it, would be that, like, at some point, I experience some sort of, relationship where perfection allowed me deeper connection.
So I paired the two, where if I do this perfectly, like, you know, I got good grades and then my parents rewarded me, maybe, you know, or like, wherever we want to pinpoint that, you know, society, who knows, you know, there's a lot of capitalistic internalization there. But like, at some point, I was taught that by being perfect, I will get more love and more connection.
So then when I Step into a space where I'm needing to do my work, right? If I am perfect, then I will be able to like, yeah, get love, um, and feel like I'm safe and I'm doing the good thing, right? So then, that's kind of how I conceptualize it when I think about these moments with people, myself, or like clients who are like very rigid as like at some point, it was learned that like this is how I'm gonna get more connection.
Our brains, our hearts are always trying to keep us safe.
Juliet: I practice somatic therapy. So my therapist is a somatic therapist. Um, and it has, for me, unlocked so much less about my mental awareness and has actually helped me really reground and like connecting to my body first. Powerful. And I have learned so much more about Just how to have compassion for myself, um, in the things that I can't control, you know, like my triggers.
Sure. Like, like feeling out of control in my body makes me want to disconnect from it. And the reason that I feel out of control is because usually I'm trying to shut down something, I'm judging something, I think something is wrong, right? Having a somatic therapist who walks me through, not like, logic ing why something is happening, but just being with it and saying, where is it?
How does it feel? What are you sensing? You know, and, and, and taking me to parts of my body. Where that emotion is living and it's probably been reinforced by a million different things at the end of the day It doesn't really matter the causality of it as much as what is my relationship to how it's living inside of me Yeah, right.
Is it really heavy right is it? on fire, right? What is my body telling me about this pain or this fear that I can just be with so that I'm not constantly trying to ignore it, which puts me back in my head, which puts me back into like trying to logic my way around the why of why something happened or why something hurts or why I'm trying to be perfectionistic, right?
And you can talk about that as long as you want. But many things are going to be true. It's not about trying to get distilled down into singularity. For me, somatic therapy has been really helpful in not getting lost in the psychological traps of honestly, binary thinking. Psychology field has so much binary thinking.
And you interview enough therapists to learn that, um, because everyone's coming from a different pedagogy. Everyone's coming from a different place. And so. I think the way that I've learned to escape that, like, go around, the mental go around, is to learn how to be in relationship to my body as the only authority.
And not even my therapist. My therapist is not more sovereign over me than I am because they have a license. You know? And so often we position care providers on a pedestal rather than as practitioners of a tool and a skill set. Mm hmm. For me, it was always easier to believe that someone else had the answers and project that onto them than to be responsible for my own bullshit, you know, I don't know if you ever feel that pressure, but
Nicole: which part, cause I was, I'm like that, you, you said a lot there. I was like, I feel a lot of those, but which part?
Juliet: Any of it that I've resonated with.
Nicole: Well, I guess yes, like I, I deeply believe in the need for the somatic and I've talked so many times about how it's wild that my current training program has not a touch of anything somatic. I think it's, yeah, exactly. So right.
So like, there's continued to be like, because of the paradigm of psychology being so cognitive, right. And like, Whatever we try to think we know about neuroscience, which is not a lot, um, we, that's like the most body we get. We don't ever get classes about, you know, like how to regulate or work or guide people through that.
So I'm always talking about that. And I think it's like a very nuanced yes and, right? Like you can do all the work in the body, but if your narrative about your life is like a certain thing because of the relationships you've been in, like we can't ignore that part too. So it's like this, like we need some sort of like combo of both, which it's frequently not.
It's frequently cognitive. What happened? CBT. Oh, you're dysregulated. Goodbye. You know what I mean? Like that's not helpful for people, but yeah. And like the idea of like worshiping and, and like, I remember, yeah, like really looking to my therapist as someone who like knew all the answers and like thinking that.
And I think that's where I'm always trying to be like, I'm just a human. And it is true. Like working in my job, it's constantly reflecting on things of human nature and helping people and thinking about things like. When we live under capitalism, right, and the reality that, like, the majority of people don't have the time or space to think about these things, someone who does do this job spends a significant amount of time thinking about these things, which lends them some level of credibility, tools, perspective, however, it's always located within their own perspective, which is where the, you know, the ideas, the bias, the scariness can really come out.
So, it's like, if you don't have a critical lens to your therapist, that's scary to me. That's really scary to me.
Juliet: Yeah. Like, no. The authority resides in you, not the therapist. Yeah. Jesus. And I think, my, my therapist and I practiced talk therapy and somatic therapy. Very cool. And a lot of times, like, when I explain to people, because a lot of people don't know what it is, and it's been so helpful for, to me, as someone who was so disembodied, was taught to be disembodied through religion.
Nicole: Yes, there it is.
Juliet: Um. I found that like, oh, I can talk my way out of anything. Like, I've talked my way out of therapists, right? Like, I've had therapists go like, you got a good handle, kid. You know, like, yeah, just like, I can't, you know, you seem like you really understand and you really, you know, just like, I've had therapists turn me away and say like, you don't need this.
And I was like, yes, I do. I have so much trauma. Yeah. And that's when someone, Sent me to to somatic. They were like, I think you, I think somatic therapy is actually where for you, like the bulk of the healing is actually going to work because, you know, you can have an intellectual grasp of something. Like it takes work to get there, but that I had done that work.
I think that helps as a natural storyteller as a performer. I spent a lot of time thinking about this shit, right? Thinking about my experience. Sure. And with a critical lens, with a creative lens, right? Like, also thinking how to interpret it for other people, with other people. But through doing that, I think I really realized, like, you can only talk through something so much before you just gotta cry.
Or you just, you know, and so what I love about Therapist is that we get to a place where You know, he's tracking my body language as I'm talking. Yeah, I try to do that. And then he's able to kind of prompt like, Hey, I noticed this when you said this thing. Yeah. Do you think that we could be with that for just a second?
Yeah. And it's always like, let's pause. Sure. It's never like, hey, stop what you're saying. I want to go in this direction. Sure, sure, sure. It's always an invitation of, would you like to investigate that? Or do you want to keep going on, like, your train of thought? And most of the times I know, I need to listen to him.
Nicole: Well, we'll see as a therapist.
Juliet: But I'm still choosing.
Nicole: On the other side, I'm like, I don't want to interrupt someone.
Juliet: No, fuck that. That's why I'm paying you.
Nicole: That's, that's true. But, like, is it? Because you know, I guess, yes.
Juliet: Yeah, it's a hold and awareness that I can't have of myself.
Nicole: Yes, my supervisor would tell me this. Well, but I'm trying to respect your divinity. You know what I mean? But also like, yes, I do. Like that's, I like how your therapist framed it of like, Hey, I noticed this in the body. Do you want to check in with it or not? Versus a therapist who comes in and is like, you need to check in. Do you see what's happening?
You know, it's always an option. It's always a choice.
Juliet: Yeah. And it always puts me in responsibility.
Nicole: I'll take this into my work. I'll take this into my work.
Juliet: Shout out to Benji. Yeah. I told him. I was like, I hype you up all the time. Thanks Benji for inspiring me. I'm always spreading the news. If there's anything, okay, fuck religion, but also like, I'm a big fan of somatic therapy.
Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We've been working on play, like making play safe in my body. Cool. I love that. How do you work on that? I was just going to say, so like in a session, we did one of my old, um, theater games where it's just a mirroring exercise where you make a motion with a sound and then the other person has to repeat it and then build off of it.
Yeah. And then we did that. We did that. Like, just sounds and motions in our bodies for like 15 minutes.
Was it in person or ritual?
Oh, in person. Yeah, that would probably make a big difference, huh? It makes a huge difference. Yeah, I actually really love that.
Nicole: Do you think that sex and play are related?
Juliet: Absolutely! Do you think that something like that would be helpful for someone who's having a hard time playing in the bedroom or the dungeon? Absolutely! Yeah! If you can make a goofy sound and like, wiggle your body with someone, you definitely can't orgasm with them. Or if you are It's going to be coming from a place of much deeper effort.
Let's put it that way. It's going to take a lot more work. So if you want to work less, play harder, yeah, start small. You know, like, it's hard for me to connect with someone I can't laugh with. Sure. You know? Yeah. And I find that, um, with sex, it's very similar. Like, it doesn't mean I won't have sex with you or I can't have sex with you, but if I'm looking for Play, particularly.
I want to play fold that level of safety in the dynamic. Yes. Then that starts for me from the beginning. Yeah. You know, if we can't blow bubbles together, sure. How are we going to laugh while I'm pegging you? Sure. Exactly. You need to have that like.
Nicole: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And then the somatic exercises, being able to do them in a safe container direct, I would say like transfer that energy, right?
Like you were doing this experience where you're learning to play more in the body and feel good in it. And then like you take that into your play in other spaces, right? Yeah. I think one of the exercises that I really liked when I, um, when I've been training was a rope around us and drew a boundary and we're like, this is my space, like felt into that, like, this is my space, my space.
And then we would like stand up and have another person come towards us and we were invited to like feel into our body of when it felt too close. Mm. Mm hmm. And I could, like, control the space, so, like, they'd take a step forward and, like, ask to, like, feel into my body, like, how does it feel? You can take another step forward, right?
And then, like, it's, it hit that point where in my body it did feel like, you know, like, this is a little close. And it was interesting, like, it felt, it, my response was different based on gender, too, of, like, a male therapist versus a female therapist, like, which, you know, my own traumas and things and living under this world, so, like, I have different felt zones of how close I could feel with some feeling into that response in my body, though, was really powerful. And like, you know, I'm someone who, yeah, teaches you, whatever, you know, thinks I'm in my body, but being able to have that exercise and then kind of like feel into that in my dating life, when does it hit that same feeling of like, Hmm, I need that handout. I need that space.
That's a really intense exercise for some people. Can bring up a lot.
Juliet: But also, isn't that why you're there?
Nicole: It is. Yeah, totally. But, and then you have to gauge that with people of like, when, based on where someone's at, like, you know, cause like what you did with your therapist, like, I don't know if I could do that with my therapist.
Oh, that's intense. Like, yeah, I'm like, I don't know if I could play with my therapist like that.
Juliet: We worked really hard. And it's less about, like, our relationship and more, like, what is my relationship to myself? Like, do I trust myself to be safe with this person? Am I finding safety in my body and my capacity to be able to be vulnerable like that without projecting or giving them the power to determine that for me?
That's powerful. You know? And that's something the other thing about, like, I feel intimate with my therapist. Like, I trust him deeply. I trust him because I have invested time and energy into practicing trust with myself. Yeah. And through that, I can show up more openly, more vulnerably with him, but it's not because I know a shit ton about his life.
I don't know anything about him, really, at all. That's the beauty of having a care, a care provider hold that space with you. But ultimately, I'm doing the work, having that permission to, in myself, keep pushing my trust, helping my capacity grow for trust is what allows me to be playful and allows me to make prolonged eye contact with my therapist without feeling really intimidated or scared. Squirmy.
Nicole: For sure. For sure. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think it's always important to like, yeah, not idolize a therapist and like still understand it's a relationship. We're both showing up and when you're in that space, it's one hour and then you do all the work outside of that, you know, it's like Jesus, you know, like when people like credit everything to their therapist, that's always a little scary to me.
Juliet: Well, and I think about relationship anarchy in that way, for me, what it provides is when you were talking with. Max Hill about the Smorgasbord, which I'm a huge fan of. That's been such a great tool for me in my journey, um, and past relationships. And it's something I, I share with people all the time when they're like, what is relationship anarchy?
And I'm like, here's this cool tool and visual, go study it up, come to me with questions. Yeah. Start thinking. Yeah. I need you to do some labor on your own. Just like reflection, so that we even have some shared, like, verbiage, I guess? Vocabulary can be helpful, so that I'm not just, like, spilling my anecdotal stories everywhere.
Because, like, that's unique to me, you know? Um, forgot where I was going.
Nicole: Well let me ask you, what is relationship anarchy to you?
Juliet: Relationship anarchy is a deep commitment and orientation to prioritizing my essence to the world, my existence, my divinity, and using the words. That you have, you know, shared today so that I am continually bringing curiosity to my experience of life and through a lens of curiosity, not all the time.
I'm not curious all the time, but what it does is it constantly puts me in relationship to that invitation to stay curious, you know, what's possible with this person, what's possible with this job, you know? What can I bring or what are the boundaries I need in order to be in connection with what's available to me, right?
And through that, there's immense freedom. It brings me so much freedom and security that in staying committed to myself, I'm also committed to the collective. So I think with relationship anarchy, a lot of times there's this idea of like hyper individuality. But actually, it puts me in, in deep curiosity about like, always, where is there opportunity for connection?
And the connection is where I grow. The connection is where I heal. It's where I discover pleasure and joy. And it's also where I live with the grief and the pain. It's in connection. And by orienting to myself, it reminds me of like, All of the ways in which I crave connection in order to keep discovering, right?
Yeah. And connection to not just people, connection to the land, connection to my city. I'm not enmeshed with anything, but I'm always practicing kind of this non attachment, this like low expectation of return. Because I'm just inherently practicing gratitude for the fact that I get to be in relationship to it in this moment.
Sure. And in this moment? If I am finding my joy, my pleasure, and my gratitude with it now, then it doesn't matter what happens next. Yeah. Because I've already received what I could now. Yeah. Which means that inherently the potential of possibility for the future is mine to discover. Mm hmm. And that makes me excited about living.
Yeah. Rather than putting my safety In a false sense of control by trying to believe that any singular relationship or any job or anything is what's going to provide safety.
Nicole: Sure. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful.
Juliet: It's a long answer.
Nicole: No, it's great. It's great. Every single anarchist I ask. Gave me like that when I was doing my dissertation research. It was like a long expose, which is exactly what, you know, all of our hearts were deep thinkers and we're like, yeah, you know, so I'm all for it.
Juliet: It's also when someone's like, yeah, let's talk about it. I'm like, get ready.
Nicole: You're like, yeah, that's what every single research participant was like. Oh my God, I've been dying to do this. And I'm like, let's go, baby. Um, Because it means so much, right? Like, it's, it's a, it's a way to orient to life for some people in a philosophical orientation, a political orientation. Yeah, for me, I, I see myself as created in relationships, right? Relationships to, yeah, other people, relationships to society, relationships to spirituality, relationships to, yeah, the ecology, right?
Like, all these things. things like create who I am. I love how you talked about like it being connected to the ways that we are in connection with other people. Rather than maybe enmeshment, like the words of interdependence have always like really rung true for me. And so I, I love hearing that, that same sort of individual in the community, right? The self in relation. That's like a lot of what relational cultural theory, like the feminist psychologist, like, takes. It would always be like, self in relation. And I'm like, yeah. Right? And it's like, relations to my body, relations to my pets, relationships to my garden, relationships to, you know, like, all of that. That creates me. Relationship anarchy, like, holds space for the nuance of that. And then how you actually do it, right? That's the subsequent question I asked in all my research. It's like, how do you practice it, right? Yeah.
Juliet: That's a great question. Do I have to answer that?
Nicole: No, you don't. Especially because we're close to time.
I don't think we have time for that. But I think maybe in some ways we could also say that you've answered it in the last hour.
Yeah. Right?
Juliet: Definitely. There's been many points at which you've tied back how, like, the concept and the practice of relationship anarchy is such, like, a pinpoint for you in all these different areas, like your spirituality and how you move through the world.
I will also, like, offer this to anyone listening, that I'm new to using the language of relationship anarchy, but I have been self orienting for years. I've heard that a lot, too. Yeah. Right? So, I also just want to, like, affirm people who maybe feel like they don't get to embody something fully because you have to, there's like this sense of earning credibility, like that's all fucking bullshit.
Language is only as powerful as it serves you, so if relationship anarchy stops feeling good, stop using it and invent other language, you know? It's only as useful as it brings connection. And then beyond that Let's just go camping together and I'm sure I'll learn a lot about you and how you practice relationship anarchy without asking for a dissertation, which I also support your dissertation.
Nicole: Yeah, I try to at least do it through like a lens, a specific type of psychological research that respects the individual lived experience of each thing, right? Like you're going to have an understanding of relationship anarchy. It's like hermeneutical phenomenological research. Well, I respect your existential experience of that word. My existential. Every other person has like a lived experience to that word that is unique. Right. So like, and, and that's beautiful. Right. And we don't, we don't have to.
Juliet: That's the fucking point.
Nicole: Totally. Well, well, totally. Right. Like we don't have to hit this one definition of what anything means. Maybe there's similar themes. We can pick out themes, but it's what you want it to be. And that's the whole, that is the whole point, right? Is like, the whole point, if I can make any claim on the whole point, right? It's like taking away prescriptive hierarchies and ways of being in power and coming into a descriptive, creating what you want.
Right to understand and connection to people, but yeah, maybe maybe I've now made a claim that I don't know.
I think
Juliet: I think we all can stand to be more curious about what we believe about ourselves Sure, and in getting more curious you find more layers and As you do that, like, language evolves with you. Totally. You know, but you do have to get messy.
Nicole: Yes.
Juliet: And you do have to fail. And you do have to fuck up a lot to learn. Like, you didn't even get into my failed relationships. Oh, sure. And I don't even want to call them failed because they really were just like teachers. Yeah, they were all, all things I'm really grateful for. Yeah. People I'm really grateful for.
And, and that's the other thing is like, it puts me back into gratitude once I really reframe pain that I experienced in those breakups. Sure. I was like, also like, I was so enmeshed with my last partner and that was when I like really doubled down on relationship anarchy. I was like, oh no, like this, I've seen how this creates harm to somebody else, you know, like overloving or over, Overgiving, past my capacity, as a way of like, earning love, did not work out for me.
You can practice and say you're doing a thing as much as you want, but until you're in relationship and you're fucking up, like, those patterns will come back. Doesn't matter what you call yourself, you know, so have some patience, uh, and grace for yourself because you have to be messy in order to like, find that connective tissue.
Nicole: That's true. It's true. Growth is always messy. It's always messy and that's like an inevitable piece of it. And you know, part of the one question that I ask everyone on the podcast, right? What is it that you want to normalize? I'd be curious, like, how would you, yeah, how would you want to answer that? Especially given what you just said about the messiness of growth.
Juliet: I wish people knew that the resilience is beyond anything you can imagine and That you really do have the power within yourself to choose what serves you. Hmm. You can trust that the more you listen to that voice, the stronger you'll become.
Mm hmm. And regardless of like what your circumstance is, you can trust yourself. Hmm. You can. It might be really scary because if you're not used to believing that. It can be hard to find that voice. It can be hard to find that intuition, but the only way to do it is to practice. So you can trust that voice that's talking to you.
That's saying, I don't know if I agree with that, or I'm attracted to this thing and I want to explore it more or this person or this experience. You don't have to know the why to be able to believe that that gets to be true and that gets to be real until you experience it and find the next thing. Gets your attention and asks that little voice to speak a little bit louder.
Nicole: Yeah. Your inner healing wisdom. Yeah. Yeah. And if you are your worst critic, that's the tricky piece of listening to the voice, but the voice can also go the other way. It can. That's the tricky piece, right? So it's like being able to like suss those two out, have a support, whatever it looks like to be able to navigate those two.
And like. Find the nuance of that. Yeah. That inner healing wisdom, that like peace that is always kind of guiding us towards our like expansion.
Juliet: Well, I think that's why curiosity to me, curiosity is intuition because it's, it's the thing that's craving it wants to know. Yeah. What about this? What about that?
Nicole: Expansion. Right. Exactly. It's craving expansion. And if that means you're curious about learning more about plants, or you're curious about learning more about polyamory, or somatic therapy, or buddhism, follow it. That's banner healing wisdom.
Juliet: Follow it.
Nicole: Bah, bah, bah. Yeah. Keep going, baby.
Juliet: Follow it.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. You can trust yourself. Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah. Beautiful. Well, thank you for coming on to the podcast and being so vulnerable and yeah, sharing about your journey and everything that relationship anarchy means to you.
Juliet: It's been such a joy to get to take up this space and connect with you and yeah, and share some of the things that have helped because I always think like, man, I wish I would have had this when, you know, so that also is a huge part of like platforms like yours that I think are, are really vital and important.
It's like, yeah, I wish I had your podcast five years ago. Um, and I'm honored to get to be a part of it.
Nicole: Well, thank you for making it with me today.
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