206. Year Four: Liberating My Authentic Voice

[00:00:00] Nicole: On today's episode, we are celebrating the four year anniversary of the podcast with a special reflection episode. Together we talk about the intense learning curve that is practicing non-monogamy, the eroticism of a shared vision. Liberating our pleasure. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy.

I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration therapy, and I am also the founder of the Pleasure Practice supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships.

Dear listener, four years, did you hear that? Four years of the podcast. Oh, what a special, special week. I am so delighted to have you here with me to all of my listeners who have been here from the beginning. What a journey. What a journey, and how exciting to remember that I am only just getting started and I am so excited to be sharing this episode with you each year that I do these reflection episodes.

It's so personal and so raw and so authentic, and this year is really, really special. I had one of my dear friends, Cait, come and sit with me and together we made a very yeah, honest episode about what the last year of my life has been like. And yeah, I also wanna say thank you to you, dear listener. Year four has been a year of immense growth for the podcast.

It is grown at an exponential rate, and truly that is because of you. All of you listeners out there who have been sharing the podcast with your community, with your lovers having listening parties, I mean, wow. I am so, so, so grateful to have some of the best listeners in the world who are tuning in and who are sharing this podcast with their community.

So from a full and thankful heart, I want to say how grateful I am for you, dear listener.

Alright, this is one personal raw episode. Wow. I hope you enjoy. Dear Listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and resources at modern Anarchy podcast.com linked in the show notes below. And I wanna say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters for the last four years.

All of you have been keeping this content free and accessible to all people. So thank you. If you wanna join the Patreon community, get exclusive access into my research and personal exploration, you can head on over to patreon.com/modern Anarchy podcast, also linked in the show notes below. And with that dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love and let's tune into today's episode.

[00:03:45] Cait: Yeah, yeah. Well, hi Lovie.

[00:03:48] Nicole: Hi. What a time. I really upgraded with two mics this year. I know.

[00:03:53] Cait: Yeah, it's like, it's been beautiful to see your evolution over time. And I just feel very like, glad to be here with you. Mm-hmm. And we can talk a little bit about how we know each other.

Yeah. Yeah. Totally. So I've known you for what, two,

[00:04:06] Nicole: three years now?

[00:04:07] Cait: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:04:09] Nicole: I think it's funny 'cause originally we were gonna have a recording a while back.

[00:04:13] Cait: This is true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's finally the moment. Yes. And I, I was dating someone. Mm-hmm. And they're very close, like bestie. Was your, was someone that you were saying Yeah. And continued to have a relationship with.

Yes. And we connected, I think immediately just like had this fiery kind of like liberation energy. Let's like make a mess of like what's happening, like understand the structures and burn them down and like recreate something new. And I always felt that energy with you. Mm-hmm. So it's been really sweet to stay connected to you over this time.

Yeah. Obviously both in the therapy world. Exactly.

[00:04:48] Nicole: Yeah. Really new to you. Very exciting to have another person in this.

[00:04:51] Cait: Totally. And it was just like very cool for me a lot of the time when I was like, what am I doing? I was like, Nicole is doing this so beautifully and it's chaotic and it's appreciate that.

A bunch of things. I was like, you were really like a beacon for me.

[00:05:03] Nicole: Aw. During that time, so Aw. Very appreciative of that. Honored. Yeah. I honored you had more experience in this world of polyamory and play than me. So I always looked up to you in that way of like, that's so interesting. Taste done this.

Yeah. Well, I had never been to a play party. I had never done any of that. Right. So that you had a lot more experience in that world than I did.

[00:05:23] Cait: That's an interesting reflection because I think when I met you, in my mind I was like. Nicole has done everything on the fight. Like your, your way of being in the world is so magnetic and like so present that I felt just this very sweet, it was like this confidence that was so rooted.

I think I use sweet a lot in that way. Yeah. Where it just feels very, it just felt very like integrated, like being around you. I just remember thinking Nicole has lived like a million lifetimes and I sort of just trusted like, wherever you go, I kind of wanna like see where you're going. Yeah. And so that's an interesting reflection I think.

Yeah. In the like last 10 years had a lot of experience at play parties and non monogamy and exploring all those avenues and Yeah. Feel much more integrated around it now. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, like I, it's been a really joyful experience to be alongside it with you. I feel like we've learned a lot from each other in that space, so.

Absolutely. Yeah. What a joy that's, have you, it's so good to be here. Yeah. Yeah. So I wanna hear like. I mean, I have questions for you. Well, I think

[00:06:27] Nicole: it's funny too. Yeah. Just the first episode that we were gonna record together that we didn't, it was about that first play party that I went to. Do you remember that?

[00:06:35] Cait: That's true. And you were very much like processing some pieces of it after. And I remember we were gonna talk, we obviously talked about it in non podcast, but like Yeah, I do remember that. Yeah. Do you remember like I do, what were your kind of like moments? Moments from that didn't

[00:06:51] Nicole: Oh yeah. I mean it was a, it was, I was so nervous.

I was like, am I gonna hate this? Mm-hmm. What is it? You know? And I ended up having like a beautiful scene. It was super hot. Super. I remember rolling around in the scene and giggling as I was in pleasure because I was just like, this is so much better than I ever thought it could have been, you know? Yeah.

And it feels so aligned and it was so great. And I remember like, you were someone that I could talk to about this, and I was like, oh, I'm gonna have this on the podcast. And then I shared with one of my friends that I was gonna do that, and she was like. Nicole, you are in a clinical psychology graduate program.

I remember this. You need to be careful. Mm-hmm. That might be something you should keep for your Patreon private sort of. Yes. And it freaked me out. It freaked me the fuck out. I was like, alright, you're right. Maybe I should not talk about this.

[00:07:41] Cait: I really remember this because we had had conversations around the same time about the delineation between like a public persona and what it means to be a therapist in this time and how having a public Instagram or having, yeah, any sort of like expressive, outward facing anything is really in contrast to the model that we've learned a lot about.

Mm-hmm. That's like be like, don't bring yourself right to the table. When I actually think that like so much of what's rich about human connection and healing and sharing space together is so much about like one's identity and learned experience. And so I remember that so vividly that was like this delineation between two.

Two parts of you that are really one human right, but like the i, the idea or the maybe unwanted invitation to like separate yourself into different palatable versions of yourself. Mm-hmm. How are you thinking about that now that you've had some space from it?

[00:08:39] Nicole: Well, you, yeah, it makes me sad that I didn't capture it.

I think I've definitely had my hand slapped throughout the journey of grad school to be like, no, that is bad. Like, don't talk about that. That's, you know, uh, so I think it makes sense why I didn't do it, but I'm sad that I don't have it captured now. And the, the joy and the beauty of that moment, I can talk about it now and I think.

Even in this current moment, I'm still finishing internships, so there is some fear, but having my postdoc at Sonic Healing Collective, I'm like, oh, they know, like, this is, I'm good. Like I'm, I'm about to get outta this whole thing, you know, and be like, my voice is ready to be free, you know? Um, and I remember editing, even just last year at this time, like every episode where I said, oh, I orgasmed or whatever.

I was like, oh shit, should I edit that out? Like, so I was really battling it, and I think at this point I'm still like a little scared, but I, I see the finish line of graduation, you know? Mm-hmm. In this summer. And so I'm like, Ooh, I'm about to get out and be wild. Totally. You can't stop me now.

[00:09:43] Cait: And like, when that fear is coming up and you're like, in that space, like what is it saying to you?

Like, what is the fear?

[00:09:49] Nicole: Um, that they'll tell me I'm, I can't do therapy, that I'm a bad person. Yeah. I, you know what, you know what I mean? Yeah, like that I, it's essentially that I'm not professional. Mm-hmm. Which is baffling to me. Like it is so baffling to me that like in the study of the human pro like experience, something like that would be considered unprofessional.

I don't get up on the soapbox, you know, but the fact that in the DSM we have the orgasm disorder as something in the dsm, but we can't talk about, right? Yes. And like, God forbid you're a clinician who does anything around sex to talk about your own life, right? Yeah. Like you hear marriage and family therapist say like, oh, I'm married and my relation, you know?

Yeah. God forbid you say, oh, I have sex and I do this. That's a whole different beast essentially, let alone when you're outside of the boxes of monogamy and heterosexuality, et cetera, et cetera. So then you're kind of,

[00:10:39] Cait: yeah. It reminds me so much of when we were kids and you would see your teacher at the grocery store and you'd be like, oh, oh my God.

Like you're a whole ass person out there in the world. But I think there is something that like, I don't know where exactly where it's rooted, but it is something very. Very limiting and very like kind of sad about having to like perform a role when in actuality like being more expressive is incredibly connective.

Mm-hmm. I mean, I think the podcast is a good example of that. The more like raw and the more like narrative you can be about yourself, that's what everyone wants to hear about because there's so much we don't talk about. And I think that you're very good at talking about things that we don't talk about.

Mm. And that's a rarity. Yeah. Thank you. And I, I'm curious too, like as you're heading into this next phase and like whatever professionalism means to you, like Yeah. When you think about Nicole, like going out into the world, all the kind of more paperworky stuff behind you and like the get the hours and all these moving pieces that sort of like check the box.

How are you thinking about like you as an entity entering into this next space? With the rules, without the rules, like how is that all coming together for you in this next chapter?

[00:11:53] Nicole: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I feel freer specifically because of Sauna and they know the values that I have, and so I, that place has been such a beacon of, of hope and light that I could be someone who stands in this area and is personal and authentic and still be welcomed within a professional space that is, yes.

Amazing. And then also I have my own private clients that come from the podcast, right? Mm-hmm. And so these are people specifically who listen and then go, I really like who you are as a person and what you can do. Mm-hmm. In a professional sense, right? And so then I don't, I don't have to feel like I have to hide at all.

And the clients who work with me, it's not like I'm talking about myself. You know? I hold the container for them the entire time, but of course often feel safer I think, to talk to me because they know that I go to these spaces and have these value systems. And I was telling you, I just started couples therapy with one of my lovers.

Yes. And it was really cool because she is also a part of this sort of community and like session one is like, this is what happens if I run into you at a play space. This is what happens if I run into you at, you know, these different spaces in Chicago. Yeah. This is how I'll handle this. Um, and we can talk about it.

And I'm also poly. And so if we were to have like shared memoirs, we would talk, you know, and there's a certain level of too close where we would have to have a discussion about that. Yeah. You know, it's like a very. Village healer sort of model. Yeah. And she was talking about the ways that, you know, that also gets complex.

'cause then you're kind of on all the time in that space, right? Yeah. When you're in a village healer, you are always the village healer. Mm-hmm. But it's all a very interesting question, especially once you're like, you know, in these smaller niche communities, I mean, we, we are in Chicago where there's a, I would say a bunch of us, but even there it's small, right?

Yeah. So I can't even imagine like rural areas, if you're a poly queer mm-hmm. Therapist doing this, like, wow.

[00:13:40] Cait: The intersections and the right running into someone at the coffee shop. You said something that struck me. You said it three times and you said, we can talk about it. Mm. And I think that that's actually the key to a lot of this.

And then just circling back to you again, like the ethos of how you think about things and how I've always seen you is like, we can talk about it. Mm. And I think that's, that's the thing. It's like whatever's happening on the table, whatever's feeling tricky, whatever's like maybe challenging to navigate.

One option is like turn away from it and feel nervous and feel fear. And the other option is curiosity. Yeah. And I think that that's kind of the through line, right? Like the curiosity about like what's coming up for you next and like who that person's gonna be. And instead of saying like, well I'm not gonna do X, Y, and Z, it's like, I might do this, I might be like that.

This might happen. Like, and I see that as I have known you. Mm. That I remember even too when you had started internship and you were beginning to work, that there was concern too, like from folks in the field. Like, don't limit yourself, don't pigeonhole yourself into this one.

[00:14:40] Nicole: Right.

[00:14:41] Cait: Avenue. And it's like this avenue is so emergent and necessary, like stay the course.

And I was so elated when you decided to stay there because it was such a moment of self-trust where I was like, you know exactly what you wanna do. And yes, like that advice like could or couldn't be right for other people. Right. But for you, like you knew and you stayed the line and. I just think it's been like a really beautiful moment of self trust to see you, to see you do that and like know the importance of that kind of work.

Yeah. Yeah. It's been really beautiful. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm so, yeah.

[00:15:16] Nicole: Yeah. I'm so glad you know that I matched for the listener. It was, it was staying at Sauna Healing Collective. They specifically told me not to stay for two years and train there because that was pigeon, I mean, they told me from the beginning in my school, said, do not train in psychedelics.

I remember that psychotherapy because that is too specific. You can do that later. Right. You can do it later. You can do it later. Yeah. Okay. You're like, I wanna do it now.

[00:15:34] Cait: Yeah. I wanna do it now. I feel really connected to it now.

[00:15:37] Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. And it's been so, I'm so grateful that I stayed and I got into internship and I did just fine and now I have a job with them, so like, you guys can, you know.

[00:15:46] Cait: Yeah, exactly. You truly right.

[00:15:47] Nicole: Yeah. They're, they're, yeah, they're great.

[00:15:49] Cait: And that's like one of those moments where it's like Right, there's always gonna be that true pathway of people who take the more like A, B, C, D route route. Yeah. And that's not you. No. It's not like you do not need to like check off B and C steps in order to get to D and E and F and all the other like.

The letters will change. Things will shift. Right. And like, can you be trusting in that process? Right. Yep. That's more important.

[00:16:08] Nicole: I got straight A's.

[00:16:09] Cait: Yeah, you did.

[00:16:10] Nicole: they can, you know what? And it's so cool. I love, uh, the training that I did in that, like the set and setting and the whole frame of the psychedelic experience is how I look at nom and everything.

Right. So that is so deeply interconnected where if I didn't, I guess my experience of non-monogamy wouldn't have been the same, you know? Yeah. 'cause I was like in school, writing the dissertation and studying psyched, psychedelic assisted psychotherapy all at once while doing polyamory at the same time.

Yeah. So it was like, it was all happening, you know?

[00:16:40] Cait: Yeah. I actually wanna like really rewind. Totally. And I wanna know, like, when was the moment that you thought to yourself, like, I, I am interested in a more expansive kind of connection for myself. Like what was, did you have like a moment that you kind of woke up?

Was it an evolving thought?

[00:16:55] Nicole: Well. You know, so growing up Christian, it was always, you know, one person for life, the whole thing. Yeah. Right. And so when that didn't work, I was doing serial monogamy pretty traditionally. Yeah. And I was with one of my partners during the pandemic, and we had decided to kind of cohabitate during that time.

Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. What a time. And I remember, uh, it's just so painful. Um, I recently recorded with Dr. Tammy Nielsen, who it's gonna be coming out in about a year, you know, because that's kind of a timeline I have right now with that episode.

[00:17:28] Cait: I'm so excited when it does.

[00:17:30] Nicole: Um, and she was like, well, you know, I'm older than you.

And a lot of people look at you and say like, you just don't wanna commit to someone. Mm. And so, like, in answering to your question and her question of like, how do I answer that? I was with that person for about three and a half years, and I was starting to experience a lack of erotic desire. Mm-hmm. Not a, a lack of love.

Yeah. In any capacity. I was absolutely in love with this man. Mm-hmm. But I was noticing so much. Complexity, which I now know that the research shows that women's desire and long-term relationships falls off faster than men and this is does. Right? Yeah. And so I didn't know any of that at the time. Right.

And I remember watching some of the HBO shows that had play parties and I was like, Hey, hey, hey. Like would you ever wanna go to one? And I remember in the pandemic Googling like play parties in Chicago, which like did not come up with anything. Right. Yeah, of course. 'cause you have to tap into an underground network and Yes, it takes time.

Yes. Yeah. And again, I'm in my couple's therapy and I'm like, there's so many play spaces, but me and my friend wanna create more. You know, its like,

oh wait. Right. Yeah. There what a shift more. There should be more. I agree. Yeah.

Yes. Um, and so we were together for like three and a half years and then he broke up with me and I was devastated.

Um, and I started dating this other person and then I was starting to get in deep with that person and then he came back. And then for a while I was dating both. Now the new guy who he said. It was a complex story. He didn't even say he did poly. He just like danced around it. And I had to look at him and be like, so are you polyamorous?

And he nodded in silence, and I should have known at that point, but I didn't, that the lack of communication skills would bite me.

[00:19:02] Cait: Some things were being worked out,

[00:19:03] Nicole: right?

[00:19:03] Cait: Yeah. Internally. Yeah.

[00:19:04] Nicole: Yeah. He later did not tell me like we had one rule. It was like, just, just let me know if you sleep with anybody else.

Okay. He did not tell me. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm classic. Um, but so I had him and he was like, I wanna be Polly. And I said, if you really love me, it would be me and only me. Mm. Mm-hmm. And I walked outta the car. Yeah. And then I kept talking to him and my ex at the same time, and I was like, oh wait, hold on a second.

Oh, we could do both, you know? And so then that was the beginning. And then when I found out he had lied to me, I was like, oh my gosh, I need to read some books. Yeah. And that was right when I needed my dissertation topic to be cemented. And so it was just like this perfect universe moment. I was like, well, yeah, this is what I'm gonna do.

[00:19:47] Cait: Let's deep dive, let's get into it.

[00:19:49] Nicole: And Lord knows I deep dived hard.

[00:19:50] Cait: Yeah. What was it like in those initial moments when you were having like this moment of self discovery, kind of like narrative shifts for yourself? How did that feel? Like? How was that feeling for you during that time?

[00:20:02] Nicole: Oh my gosh. I mean, I cried a lot.

Yeah. It reminds me a lot of deconstructing Christianity, you know? Mm-hmm. Because. For so many people, myself included, you know, it was about God first. Right. And then I deconstruct that, what is my life about? Right? It's about romance. Yeah. This love story. I'm gonna get married to a man again. Mm-hmm.

Because we still hadn't fully impact queerness. Yeah. I had been making out with people, making out with women drunk, but we had not unpacked that that might mean anything.

Yeah. Right. It's just the classic pipeline. Exactly. Classic. You're like, I'm drunk. It's a different thing. Right, right. Yeah. Only when I'm drunk.

And it also like, I think that's such a fascinating one. 'cause it, it really like falls into the middle of ga it falls into what's like acceptable and hot from like, so many angles. And it's like, it's self-driven, but it's also not really like integrated. So it's, it's a, it's a tender spot, I think to be.

Absolutely. I always think about that as like a very tender. Spot.

I wouldn't go back to that. Yeah. At all. I wouldn't go back to any of that. Right. Yeah. Like that is, there's so much cognitive dissonance and unconscious stuff going on. Yeah. Speaking about like unpacking,

[00:21:02] Cait: like that's just like a time so much like inner churn.

Totally inner churn.

[00:21:06] Nicole: Totally. Totally. And so that was only about what, like a year before you, a year and a half before you meet me, which is just like really wild to think about. Yeah.

[00:21:15] Cait: Yeah. Yes. Because there's just been so much that has happened in that time. Yeah. I love the word integration. Mm. As an idea of just like things coming together in a really harm harmonious way.

Mm-hmm. And when I think about you and your pathway along this, there have absolutely been moments of chaos and inner churn and all those different elements. Right. And like, obviously you wouldn't wanna go back to it, but seeing the arc now and like where you are, I just think that journey's so worth it.

Like when I think about other people going through this Yeah. And what that process might look like. I just always think about how this is not a singular experience. Mm-hmm. Like this is a very common, like when you're navigating through the structures of relationship and queerness and identity, it's like there is a big churn before things really settle.

Yeah. And I, that's one thing I've really like taken to heart in being around you, especially in the last couple months. It just feels like you have like, like really rooted. Mm. Like there's the sense of, you know, the exploration is like up in the clouds, there's a lot of like, the weather changes and there's a lot of movement.

Yeah. And you know, that's still part of the thing. But I really like sense this. Just like rootedness from you now, and it's just, it's like very sweet to be around. Oh, yeah. I appreciate that. Yeah. So you were talking about like those, those moments of all these dissertation and dating and all those different things and the evolution of that.

Are there any moments where you're like, Ugh, like I, like I can't do this?

[00:22:43] Nicole: Oh yeah, for sure. I think that those are usually the moments where I recognize that I'm past my window of tolerance. There's definitely been points even more recently where I, you know, and that's what I know. Like I now know, you know, the moment where I'm like, I can't do this.

Fuck this shit. This is way too hard. That's where I'm like, okay, I need a nap. I maybe need some like peanut butter cups. Mm-hmm. You know, I need to like just chill and then wake up and do it again tomorrow.

[00:23:07] Cait: Yeah. And like I'm, I know that how, how do you know when you've like hit that point?

Are there signals or signs leading up to it?

[00:23:14] Nicole: It's the, it's like, it's, you know, this is where I am grateful for the clinical psychology lens, right? Yeah. It's like very black and white thinking. Mm-hmm. Where it's like, you know, I'm like, I'm gonna build a family with this man, or like, fuck this guy completely. Like, you know, I'm like, whoa, I think you're jealous there's something going on right now.

[00:23:30] Cait: Yeah. You know, because you can look at those two thoughts and you're like, that's really extreme cool. Mm-hmm. When you're on like that, really like strong binary. Yep. And you're like, the gray space is gone. Yeah, exactly. No, yeah. When it's like too hard to look at the gray space. Yeah. Yeah. When that's where you like really need to learn and sit away, like the spot of, of change and iteration.

But yeah, the spot, some action and response is on either end of that spectrum.

[00:23:53] Nicole: Totally. I mean, I think one of the biggest things to, like the groundness that I have right now is the community. I have so much community that reflects these similar values and perspectives, and so I'm not doing as much teaching in the past.

Mm-hmm. Or, you know, I, I have people who see me and I remember. I was reading the, this changes everything. It's about the relational revolution in psychology. It's a feminist take on psychology and or, um, I was reading this after a breakup reconfiguration where I was deeply in grief and, uh, it was, uh, one of the researchers talking about tuning forks.

Mm-hmm. And she had said that, you know, you can have eight tuning forks all in one pitch, and then if you add the ninth tuning fork and it's in a different pitch, it hits all the other forks. Whoa.

And I kept thinking, Hey, it's fine. I have eight people in my life I can take on a ninth. That's a little different.

Yeah. No, the answer is no. Like, personally. Um, and so getting all of these people into alignment in my close inner circle where I feel seen, understood, has absolutely been life changing. And even today as I was cleaning out my closet, which is like, sounds, it's the cliche thing, but I was cleaning my closet and I, I knew this was in there and I was kind of worried that this was what it was, or worried, what's the right word?

Um, there's a folder. And I picked it up and it's like, as a part of my therapy assignment, you know, it's like, date in 2018. I'm going to walk through everything that happened in my sexual assault. Mm-hmm. And I started looking at it and then I was like, whoa, whoa. And I was like, yeah, I'm recording with Kate today.

We do not need to unpack all of this. And I haven't thrown it away. Yeah. 'cause there's something to that in the journal.

[00:25:26] Cait: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:26] Nicole: Um, but it's a part of the podcast I don't really talk about anymore. 'cause I feel like I turned a page. Yeah. And I was like, you know, but that's a part of the whole journey when you're talking about like the, he, like a healing arc and a narrative.

You know, that's a whole part of what brought me into the space and got me to here and now I have so much community around it that I, I don't really even think about that piece or where I've come from or any of this anymore.

[00:25:48] Cait: It reminds me when you talk about set and setting where it's like that had, its, it, it, it will have its evolution in its place in the future.

Right. And it has had its place in other conversations in the past, but like kind of being able to discern like where certain things fit. Yeah. And like how you wanna talk about them and what's like relevant in that moment. What's a live for you? Right. I did have a follow-up question 'cause I was curious, I think obviously there are listeners who like have, are in various places in their journey of building community and like finding spaces that resonate.

Yeah. When you think about like building community, 'cause that's obviously something that takes time. Yes. How do you, when you look back on it, like how did you, how did you find community and what was that journey like for you?

[00:26:26] Nicole: Yeah. It's funny 'cause they, it was, yeah. The yoni massage. Yes. The person who gave, yeah.

[00:26:34] Cait: I went to one of his, we have a, we have a shared friend who does yoni massage. Yep.

[00:26:37] Nicole: And that's how, how I met him was a Google search.

[00:26:40] Cait: Really? Oh. Did you just type in yoni massage?

[00:26:43] Nicole: Yes. And that was it. Yes.

[00:26:45] Cait: But like we're like one step before that you obviously thought like, I want to try this. Yes. I want to experience it. 'cause it was your first time doing it. Yes. Do you remember like how you even know knew about even that? It was a good question. Yeah.

[00:26:56] Nicole: It must have been some sort of YouTube something. Yeah. Spiritual healing. You know, I teach yoga, so it's probably all in the same thing. Yeah. I watched some sort of YouTube video and then I literally searched that.

Mm-hmm. And then I had that experience. Then I talked to him and he is like, oh, I'm having a house party. Right? Mm-hmm. And then I meet one of my first lovers. Yeah. And then we go to a play party and then I meet you and then I meet all these other lovers. Mm-hmm. And rock climbing of course. Like I've met a lot of people through that community.

All these people that we share and know that I've met through that. So it's all been very in person organic, which is, I was talking about this today, the rock climbing wall. And it's like. Pros, cons, you know? Mm-hmm. Pro is like, you meet people in person. I mean, and maybe it's not even a con, just a, a complexity is that when things do not work out and you need to reorient, re mm-hmm.

Reshape that connection, you are still going to see that person. So I went through the grief of that. Yeah. You've been through that a couple, right. We're like, just the intersections of your life become so much more entwined.

[00:27:52] Cait: Yeah. Which is really beautiful, right? Like it's, it's that idea that you don't have to separate parts of yourself to be in community, that you can like, bring a more full version of yourself into every space that you enter into.

And like, so does everyone else. So like when vulnerabilities come up, they're there. Like, yeah. When a disagreement happens or a relationship isn't working, the way that it's in alignment with like, what you need at that moment. You feel that your community feels it. Yeah. And it's, it is complicated. It is complicated.

It requires some skill, like some learned skills about how to navigate those moments. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have any memories of like your biggest moments of like, oh my God, I'm fucking this up like I feel like I don't know how to do this.

[00:28:32] Nicole: Yeah. I think, yeah. I feel like almost, what, two years ago, it feels like at this point navigating two really deep partnerships at the same time.

[00:28:45] Cait: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:47] Nicole: People talk about in relationships how they don't wanna say things 'cause it's gonna hurt the other person or hurt that person's feelings. And when you are in two or more relationships and you're feeling called in different directions. Mm-hmm. Oh my God. Yeah. To like sit with that person and be like, I'm so sorry that you want me to show up here.

I. I'm feeling called over here or you want this amount of time, but I actually only feel good giving this amount of time. Mm-hmm. And having to sit with their grief and your grief. Yeah. And then to receive that on the opposite end. 'cause it's a whole thing to, to be the leader of that, of like, I wanna pull back, but another thing to receive that from someone.

Oh yes. Oh my God. So tender.

[00:29:26] Cait: Yeah. Oh my God. Ow my ego. Truly. Yeah. I think a lot of people are well practiced in that. 'cause I was talking to someone recently about the idea of poly or ENM spaces and how. I try to view everyone and everything as a partner in my life. Mm sure. And so when I think about work, when I think about hobbies, when I think about my friends, I'm like, these are all elements of like a bigger ecosystem of things that I love and I care about.

Right? Or that tend to mean in some way or vice versa. And so I think we're all like for folks who maybe are like new in this space, thinking about it in that way where like if you can't go to something 'cause you have a work event, like we have these obligations to other things in our lives. Or maybe a friend asks you to go to a really important event and you can't go to your partner's event.

There's disappointment in that. But it feels different when it's another person, especially when there's an emotional element at play. And so I've tried to recontextualize that where I'm like, of course it feels hard to feel disappointed. It feels hard to let someone else down. And our priorities are all we, we have these rich lives of multiple priorities.

Yeah. And so, yeah, that was just a thought I had recently about like, it's different to navigate 'cause we're not as well versed collectively and like. Having to share time and space with another intimate obligation or choice. And so it can feel very personal. Whereas like if you're like, oh, I have to go to this work thing, somebody's like, oh, I totally get it.

Go to your work thing. Of course, because you have to, you have to.

[00:30:49] Nicole: You're bound. Yes. Right. Not, I actually want to spend time with this other person more than you currently.

[00:30:56] Cait: Right. And choice and autonomy can be a little threatening and a little tender. Yeah.

[00:31:00] Nicole: Uhhuh. Yeah, Uhhuh. So learning to do that. Mm-hmm.

With grace. Yeah. Especially when you're in new relationship energy. Yeah. And then also to receive it. Mm-hmm. When other people are doing that and going through new relationship energy is definitely a big,

[00:31:17] Cait: yeah.

[00:31:17] Nicole: Muscle learning curve.

[00:31:19] Cait: One that's so worth it. But it is an arc. It's definitely an arc. So the flip side of that too is, you know, I think the idea of like even fucking up during these moments is like, that's not real because.

We're all learning. Right. Of course. It just feels like that in the moment. So I'm curious, on the flip side, is there a moment in an e and m space or with folks in your life that you're like, I really handled that really in a way that feels like an alignment with who I am and how I wanna be in relationship?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:31:46] Nicole: I think the recent reconfiguration I was sharing with you Yeah. About people in my life, I think feeling really rooted to, to say we're both grieving in this. Yeah.

[00:31:56] Cait: Yeah.

[00:31:56] Nicole: Like, I see you grieving and I'm also grieving and I'm here and I'm committed to you in a very different way.

Mm-hmm. Like, I'm committed to you. Like reorienting from play romantic, well, I guess I don't even really use the word romantic, but a sexual space into a space that's nonsexual and to do that with love and care and compassion and commitment to that person. Mm-hmm. You know, that feels very in alignment with relationship anarchy of sex doesn't have to be the highest form of connection Yeah.

In my life. Yeah. Um, and so to do that with grace and to name it and to, to be in community with that person and to stay in close proximity with that person we just snuggled the other night, right? Mm-hmm. Like that is, uh, yeah, definitely in alignment. And I think the complexity is that it takes two to tango, right?

Yeah. And so I have a lot of grace for that person who received that and restate in community, because I've also tried to navigate that with other people and it can activate a lot. And then you're kind of, you're in a tough situation where you can't really dance anymore.

[00:32:53] Cait: Yeah. It's like learning a new dance.

Because I think that there's, I'm curious your thoughts on this. 'cause I think that the way that I used to talk about it when I was thinking more in like a linear fashion of like deescalation. Mm. But it's interesting 'cause what you were saying too is right. Like, so a sexual connection is above this kind of connection.

Right? Or like a deeply emotional connection is different than this connection and where on the ladder is that. And even though I'm very afraid of spiders, I do think about it more of a spider web now. Yeah. Where, you know, maybe that area of the spider web, like hasn't been visited. So you don't know if it's safe yet.

You don't know if it's like, if there's enough web over there to kind of hold you. Mm-hmm. And so I think about like that more now where for you in this connection maybe, maybe that's uncharted territory and you both have to like traverse the web to overhear. Mm-hmm. And the web still lives. Right? Like the thing over there that you, that connection that you had that was like more sexual, that's still alive.

Yeah. And that's still there on the web, and so it's acknowledging that it's like being able to still see it from this new vantage point. Mm-hmm. So I'm curious how you think about ladders and webs and just like relational smorgasborg, like Sure. How do you think about that now?

[00:34:03] Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. I, I like to use the word reorient, right?

Mm-hmm. Because the escalator suggests to deescalate, I think there's a real reality that if you have been seeing someone every day, you know, for. Many months or whatever. It feels like you're deescalating 'cause you're pulling back. Mm-hmm. So maybe I'd say like my, or we're changing how much we orbit, you know, and see one another.

So we're taking a wider orbit. Yeah. This person's still in my community, but we're taking a wider orbit and we're reorienting in the ways that we see each other. I think that has made quote unquote breakups, right? Yeah. From the outside, a little bit kinder on my soul, because it's not that I'm losing this person completely, we are just reorienting to a much wider way of connecting with each other.

And so I went to the climbing gym today, so I'm, you know, that what it's, you know, and so, um, I think what I'm humbled by is the power of our minds at this point too, you know, because. You have a narrative of who I am. I have a narrative of who you are, and we have a narrative for who all of our lovers are.

And then as you get in deeper relationship and you find out more pieces that you've projected onto them, that is a humbling journey and people change.

[00:35:12] Cait: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:13] Nicole: And so I'm just, I'm really humbled by the power of our brains to create a story around these people and how that shapes our attraction and our entire life, essentially.

[00:35:21] Cait: But yeah.

[00:35:22] Nicole: Whoa. You know, so just a little bit of like a constant curiosity about my relationship, so than thinking I know this person or where we're going.

[00:35:30] Cait: Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot of trust. It's a lot of like, hopefully this other person's telling me what they need. I'm through doing my best. And hopefully that's like, you know, again, learned skills that like evolve over time.

But I think the reorientation is really beautiful because it implies that like the history is still. Yeah. Part of the narrative where it's like, just because we're changing how we relate to each other, doesn't I, if I'm thinking about it actually now, this is just a thought that's coming to mind right now is that because of the history, it's just getting richer.

Mm. And if you decide to stay in community and in connection with someone, your story is just becoming richer. Right? Yeah. It's not deescalating. Right. It's not. And I, I think that for a lot of people, it can be very painful to keep that connection alive. There's a transition period where when things are changing, it can become very painful.

And like you said, full of grief. Yeah. And also like grief is meant to be shared. Yeah. With other people. It's meant to be shared with our community, our friends, all those moving pieces. And so just the idea that if you can add to the relationship and keep it alive, that it wasn't just founded on the, there's a reason that you found this person, there's a reason that you had a connection with them.

Mm-hmm. And so like if you believe in that root connection. There are so many ways to be in a relationship with someone. Yeah, absolutely. Even if that means grieving a part of the relationship that's changing. Mm-hmm. That easy?

[00:36:51] Nicole: No, you definitely got some voice messages from me.

[00:36:55] Cait: I did like voice messages from you.

We love like a six, six to seven minute voice. I feel like that's our prime spot is six to seven minute voice messages

[00:37:05] Nicole: where I'm literally trying to not cry, but crying and I can hear it where I'm like,

[00:37:09] Cait: yep. You're in it. It's happening. Yeah. I mean, those are so beautiful too because, I mean, I'm such a fan of a voice message, but I think that you and I have this thing where like one of us will leave a voice message and then two weeks later one of us will reply, but the arc of that is so fun because in those two weeks a lot has changed.

Yes, yes. And so like the evolution of the processing is just very alive, but, and moving and. You know, I'm responding to something that happened two weeks ago, and then you're like, actually I'm in this, like, new, new place. New.

[00:37:35] Nicole: Exactly. I'm like, oh, I love this. For you, I mean, the relationship to the podcast, right?

Like Yeah. I wrote, you know, even for recording today's reflection, you know, episode, I cannot go back to listen to year three, two, or year one. Like, I, I refuse. I just, I mean, maybe I'll, but it's, it's really hard. What about it is hard? Oh my God. Uh, it's funny 'cause I can edit myself, right? I've gotten really used to, okay, I'm like sitting down.

This is my, sometimes I'm like, who is this chick? Like, talking like, truly. I'm like, I don't know. Like, I don't know you. Yeah. I don't know her. Um, but there's something about this conversation mm-hmm. And the reflection episodes that are so deeply personal because it's often a conversation. Yeah. And then when I'm like really getting into something that's so personal, it's, it's like reading your diary from years ago where you go, wow, A lot has changed.

I don't agree with that. This is, it's just, it's just jarring. I think yeah. You just change a lot. I'm, I'm proud of myself. Right. So it's, but it's, it's trying to listen to your, it is,

[00:38:34] Cait: it reminds me of like, reading things from high school. I just think we change a lot Yeah. In early life. Like, there's so much churn and like, um, I always used to talk about it like a garbage compactor where like you have to slough things off in order to make more room in the space.

Mm. Yeah. And so whatever, like you're inviting in, you have to make choices about what's leaving. Yeah. And sometimes to revisit what you've left behind and like the ways you used to think about things. Right. It is, it's like, it's humorous and a little like Yeah, exactly. What was I doing? What was I doing?

Yes. So, yeah. Absolutely. I think doing reflective work like this mm-hmm. Is so, I mean, you'll listen to this in three years and be like, oh my God, what?

[00:39:15] Nicole: Yep. Yep, yep. Yeah. I started, um, even for my recordings now, I do a little intro before the guest comes into the Zoom room. Mm-hmm. And I do this little like.

You got this, Nicole. Right? Like, you're doing great. You're wrong, you're smart. I love you. I hope you're dancing. Yeah. You know? And so now I'll, I'll listen to, because like the, this week's episode I recorded a year ago mm-hmm. A year ago because of internship, I wasn't sure what my life was gonna be like.

And so now when I look at that, it's like these nice little reminders. Oh yeah. So it has created a really interesting relationship to time. Yeah. When you, you're like, wow, that was a full year of consciousness. Wow. And that's, it's today and I'm, I'm recording again. And that's gonna, oh, it just, life is so short.

You know? It's so short.

[00:39:56] Cait: And a year is not, I've started doing a thing now where on a weekly basis I write down everything that's going on in my life. Mm. And there was this calendar that I learned about that has like, every week is a square. Mm. And when you really look at it that way, you're like, there aren't that, there's not that many weeks.

I know. I'm like, okay. So like, let me try to be more intentional and present with like how I'm spending my time. Because these little sweet squares like deserve a lot of time and attention. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. So I really feel, feel that, okay, well let's hop into it. Let's do it. Here's some questions for you.

Yeah. We've touched on a couple of of these things that I really wanna hear about the last year. So how have you changed in the last year? Yeah. It's an easy question where to start, right?

[00:40:39] Nicole: Yeah. Where do you, where do you go? Um, yeah, I think that community mental health is something I wanna talk about.

Definitely the relationships, the poly network from, from two partners to maybe letting go of that word partner. Mm-hmm. And having a circle of lovers that have all shared together and

[00:40:58] Cait: yeah,

[00:40:58] Nicole: that's been really beautiful. Um, and. So all of that, we could go down either rabbit hole of that, but I guess also first just the podcast has been growing.

Yes. Like there's actually Mo, like there's always momentum, but like every year it gets bigger on the God.

[00:41:13] Cait: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:13] Nicole: Which is so crazy.

[00:41:15] Cait: Like it is. And it's also like, I mean from an outsider's perspective, granted like I'm not living in your body, in your universe, but like it makes so much sense to me. Oh yeah.

It's such a needed channel in the world. Mm-hmm. And it's, you know, it's, it started little and it's not so little anymore. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, it's like baby podcast, teenager podcasts. Exactly. Little 4-year-old. I don't think it's a teenager anymore,

[00:41:37] Nicole: so I know. Yeah. One of my guests was saying that, um, they have, uh, podcast listening parties.

I was like, what?

[00:41:45] Cait: So fun. Like, what? You know, like, wait, because I'm imagining that after that there's like a really rich discussion after

[00:41:52] Nicole: That's exactly what they're saying. Like, pause it and talk about it. I was like, that is really cool. Wait, I'm so honored.

[00:41:57] Cait: I love that. I'm so honored. Yes. Also like, what a great jumping off point to have like conversations about identity and needs and wants and desires and all those things.

Oh, that's so fun. Yeah. I just like wanna be a little fly on the wall, the room and see. Totally. Yeah. When people are chatting me please. Um, okay, let's start with community mental health. I feel like there's some like richness there. I wanna hear

[00:42:19] Nicole: first off, yeah, I still haven't looked into the history of it, but what the hell is that term?

I'm not sure. Okay. For, yeah. For the listener who doesn't know it is Medicaid.

[00:42:29] Cait: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:29] Nicole: Mental health, and that is where I'm currently at for my internship. And so you see a lot of systemic trauma and poverty and racial inequalities, and it is all in a, you know, nonprofit, underfunded sort of mental health situation.

We call that community mental health.

[00:42:47] Cait: Yeah. I'm just curious. It's just, yeah. The term is so interesting to me, right? 'cause just in thinking about like what providers are out there and what options are available to people that like, of course, right? That is community mental health. It is communities, folks from all different walks of life coming together to seek mental health care and also.

I dunno. The term is like oddly inaccessible. It feels very, it's weird. Yeah. Right, right. Yeah. It feels weird. Yeah. How do, like, how are you thinking about it? Like what's this feels like a very alive

[00:43:19] Nicole: It's jarring. Yeah. It's jarring every single day.

[00:43:22] Cait: Tell me more about the jarring.

[00:43:23] Nicole: Um, the listeners can't see my face right now.

[00:43:26] Cait: Um, let me describe it. Go for it. You are deep in thought, furrowed, browse now laughing.

[00:43:35] Nicole: Well, I think about it like my cat. Okay. Not this, we will get there, but my cat Right. Like she lives in this, this studio apartment. She does, she has no idea what is outside there. Yeah. No idea. Right? Yeah. And the majority of people, depending on their socioeconomic status, have no idea.

What it is like to live where you are. Unhoused. Yeah. Where you don't have enough money to get access to food. I've never lived that life of, no. You know, I had to take out massive student loans to do anything for education, but like, yeah.

So it's been a part of my own therapy to acknowledge my pain. 'cause now at this point I go, well, it's not as bad as my clients in community mental health.

Sure. And my therapist is like, Hey Nicole. That's not how that works. Right. No. Like, I'm box. Everyone's in their own own experience. Right?

[00:44:16] Cait: Yes, yes, yes. But like, I think I would say to your cat in a box who's like learned about what's outside.

[00:44:23] Nicole: Yes. I amm learning about what's outside the box. And that's essentially what all of my professors said when I landed that spot for internship.

They're like, oh, this will be good for you. Yeah. A little outside of your normal box. Right? Yeah. Can you expand a little bit? Yeah. Yeah. So you just see a lot of, essentially the ways that the system works. Right. Mm-hmm. The system works with the people at the top. The less educated people are, the more that they fit into these systems and work jobs, right.

That perpetuate the system. And so you, you see that when you're there, right? Yeah. As the lack of education and the lack of resources and how that creates, uh, essentially a lack of relational skills that play out. You know? 'cause I really believe that all mental health is a relational dynamic. Yeah, absolutely.

And so you hear stories of families that just don't have the skills, and there's trauma inside, like real, real trauma inside the family. And so you see, that's how, you know, and then I watch someone slap a disorder on them. Mm-hmm. Right? And be like, you have bipolar, right? Not, you're a part of a systemic inequality and your parents experience trauma and this, this, this, this.

It's like you have bipolar, so it is jarring. Yeah. To be in that and to see that. And it was really, and I mean. It's difficult to like hear someone express all of that and like struggling to get access to food and then you just like, oh, your, your friend's like you wanna go eat out later? And you're like, yeah, right.

Yeah, sure. Let's go eat out at this bar. It's just no second thought. Right? Yeah. Yes. It's a lot to sit and hold with. Um, so yeah.

[00:45:51] Cait: Yeah. I like where to even start with this. No. 'cause I feel like it's one of those things where you may talk a lot about systems, how we fit in and out of systems. Knowing systems, you can do it a different way.

It's So, I've always thought about this 'cause I was in early childhood for a little while. Mm-hmm. And I always thought about access to education. Oh my God. And how early it starts and how community mental healthcare, community resources are sort of like a last swooping effort to sort of. Course correct for society's downfall and lack of support early on for folks.

Yeah. And so what you're talking about with diagnosis and the lack of a holistic vision is so part of the system that we're talking about mm-hmm. Where when you are little and you, you know, come from a background that allows you to go to a private preschool instead of the underfunded preschool or

[00:46:48] Nicole: preschool at all,

[00:46:49] Cait: or preschool at all, because that's not, or preschool at all funded.

Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Just these aspects of like access and assumption about like what's available to you. And then, you know, we're, we're obviously talking about grief and it's hard to even grieve something that you didn't even know. Right. You could have. Right. And, and so when you're talking about community mental health, it's just one of those moments where it's like a diagnosis is something.

But it's, it's not acknowledging the full picture. Mm-hmm. And it's really, yeah. I'm curious like how you, when you're working with clients and you're thinking about diagnosis and you're thinking about their past, how is like both from a professional standpoint and from a personal standpoint, like how that, how you think about it and how that impacts you.

[00:47:39] Nicole: Yeah. I think I just,

I just wish we had a different system Yeah. Than what we currently have. Right? Yeah. It's, it's hard to have someone in your office, like my unhoused client comes to me and is like, I need help finding resources.

[00:47:57] Cait: Yeah.

[00:47:57] Nicole: I can't solve that. I can maybe connect them here, there, I can't solve that.

[00:48:01] Cait: Right. You're connecting them to another community.

Right. Support. Right. Which great. That those exist Incredible that those resources exist, but Right. Like and do they, what that person actually needs, and this is what's so tricky you're talking about is housing, is stability. Food is like the most basic needs to be met to even be able to address what else is going on.

[00:48:25] Nicole: And he was on a wait list for a caseworker, and the wait list time was like nine months, which is like

[00:48:31] Cait: Right. Okay. Right. And we're talking about time and how time, like that's a lot of time. Yeah. That's a lot of time to also like not have care and support. Mm-hmm. And also that's such a, a slippery space where like when you don't have the things you need, obviously things can disintegrate very quickly.

Mm-hmm. And so to like catch someone in that moment and be like, why society created this problem. But you, that's what you're talking about. Like, as a therapist, you can't provide four walls. You can provide a space to talk about things, but you can't provide food or four walls or a safer childhood.

[00:49:08] Nicole: No. 'cause I'm hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt.

[00:49:10] Cait: Right. That's the thing. Right. So it's like, oh, we're all part of the system. Mm-hmm. And it's not really working for anyone. Mm-hmm. That's the thing is like, it's not even working for folks who it like really needs. Or who it's designed to work for either.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. The whole thing from like top to bottom is not working. Mm-hmm.

[00:49:26] Nicole: Well, it is working for the people at the top,

[00:49:27] Cait: the tip top. Yes, yes. I'm those couple folks much working. It is very much working.

[00:49:31] Nicole: And I think we can ask deeper questions about like their mental health. Is it really working when you're that isolated from the rest of humanity?

Right, right. But I think that in terms of working for them to get whatever they want, it's definitely working.

[00:49:41] Cait: Yeah.

[00:49:42] Nicole: So it's. It's jarring to be put into that context. And particularly in Indiana, which is much more conservative. Mm-hmm. Right. So I've just been put into a different environment. What's been interesting too is that I teach psychiatry residents out there.

Mm. That's also been really interesting because they're MDs who have zero therapy training, but do therapy and diagnose. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so they've been bringing me in to like teach stuff. Mm-hmm. You know, I've been trying to help them see more of the gray space because, you know, coming from an MD lens, you think, here's the body, here's how this works.

Right. And this is what you diagnose someone with to get them to see more like human emotions or gray. And it's meaning making. It's not symptoms, it's meaning making. It's the narrative. It's their relationships. And so trying to help them unpack, to see some of that, I, I've seen them be very frustrated with me.

Some of them like take onto it and are like, Ooh, this is cool. Other ones are like, what do you mean? Yeah. What do you mean? You know, and I'm like. Like, it's okay. Just sit with this discomfort. Mm-hmm. You will, you will start to see if with more time, this is about you. Right.

[00:50:40] Cait: What's coming up is actually about you.

[00:50:42] Nicole: Yeah. But I had did the same thing when I was in my existential classes with Dr. Debo. I would argue with him. I was like, took classes with him for like two years and be like, what do you mean Dr. You know? And so like, I get it. I get it. It's really hard to sit in the gray in the nuance. Right? We were talking about relationships even, and reorienting like it's.

So much easier to say, this person's bad, this is the bad human. Fuck this guy. Mm-hmm. They're a piece of shit. That's often what I hear from my clients. Yeah. Some people write my, they're a piece of shit, I don't care. And I'm like, I think you care. I'm sorry that if you're yelling about it.

[00:51:13] Cait: Yeah, exactly. You care.

Exactly. If it's taking on time in therapy, you care.

[00:51:18] Nicole: Right. It's much harder to like be softer and be like, wow, this person has, you know, been brought up in this way and they have these things and like I care about them and also I'm gonna take a step back. Like, that's a much harder story for most of us to sit with.

[00:51:30] Cait: I think so too.

[00:51:31] Nicole: Yeah. Um, yeah. So it's definitely been an experience out there to like see access to Yeah, just much wider systemic inequalities. Um, and then also, yeah, just access to doctors who have no training in therapy whatsoever and who. Do therapy and who provide autism diagnosis without any sort of ADOS training.

They go off the book and they're like, yeah, this is, I can do it. I can give autism. It's a bunch of check boxes, right. Where you're like, how that works. It's not how it works. That's a diagnosis. And unlike some of them, which you can age out. Yeah. Or like, you know, progress out of mm-hmm. You could be like, oh, I used to have anxiety.

Like autism is one where you're like, you can get that. Yeah. And so it's wild to me that they don't have any training in that and they just do it. And I'm just like, whoa. So I truly take a big Yeah. Just take a big deep breath and say, whoa, you know,

[00:52:15] Cait: I mean, that's all you, I mean, yes. That and like make the impact in the corner of the world that you can Oh yeah, for sure.

That you can. It was reminding me so much too. There was someone when I was in my undergrad studying early childhood, and there was a story that always really broke my heart. Mm-hmm. We were doing all kinds of, uh, diagnostic tooling and working with preschoolers and doing these games. Were like, stack this up or repeat this back to me.

And I knew there was one child who grew up in a household where food was scarce, the parents were fighting a lot, their housing stability was very inconsistent. And we were going through all of these tasks. And what I heard from my friend was that at a certain point, this child just looked up and was so teary-eyed and said, I'm really tired.

Mm. Yeah. And I was like, the tooling, it's a tool, right? Like we have assessments, we have tools, we have things to be able to make sense, and we are so much more complex than that. Oh yeah. And so when we miss the complexities of who we are and how that plays into everything, and the complexities are a societal impact.

Yep. A child who's too tired to do an assessment and gets diagnosed with something right. Because you have to check the boxes. Yeah. That's really heartbreaking. Absolutely. And I'm like, that child needs food. That child needs a safe space to be. That child needs a roof over their head. And what we're focused on right now is seven out of 10 checks boxes because they're too tired and they're not gonna do the next task.

They're getting diagnosed with something.

[00:53:43] Nicole: Right? Absolutely. Yeah. And my school system, you know, the whole journey is complex. You know, you have good feelings, bad feelings. I am grateful that I was sitting in classes where they showed me real research about how, like they'd have, um, case vignettes, um, in these research studies with a black child and a white child.

And the black child would often get much more difficult diagnoses. Instead of PTSD or anxiety, they would get oppositional defiant disorder. Yep. And now you're looking at a kid. Right. So like, I at least am grateful that my school was giving me that sort of critical lens Yeah. To be looking at this because exactly what you're saying.

Right. I. Yeah. This is the whole thing. So it's like, I almost feel at this point that I've been, uh, like, uh, I'm, I'm like trained to like slay the dragon. Mm-hmm. You know, I'm like, there's a really big dragon here. Yeah. Someone therapy is all good and happy, but like, someone needs to slay that dragon. Mm-hmm.

And get a little bit more specific on the systemic pieces that are contributing to this. And Yeah.

[00:54:37] Cait: When you think about slaying the dragon Yeah. Like what's in your backpack when you're like, okay, I got, I see the dragon over there, I'm bringing my toolkit, I'm bringing my whatever I need to do it. Like what are some of the pieces you think about

[00:54:47] Nicole: Community first

yeah. Community is medicine, right? Mm-hmm. And that's why I like having a podcast that's free. Yeah. Right. Because I've had people who've joined my Patreon and had messaging with me, and they're like, I am in rural Idaho and I have no queer friends. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. And so like, they're tuning in and feeling a resonance and learning and stuff.

Yeah. And so I think that I. It's about awareness, right? So the more of us that become aware of this and can, it reminds me of the podcast episode I did with Danielle Herrera, who's an amazing, amazing therapist. Um, and she would constantly talk about pointing the arrow upward. Mm-hmm. Right? It's like we're constantly, like, something's wrong with me.

I'm horrible. I'm this, I'm that. Right? And it's about pointing the arrow upward to the systems and having that sort of compassion for ourselves. And so I think the more that we can have that level of awareness and point it upwards, the more we can collectively rise together. And we're extremely powerful when we're all working together.

[00:55:39] Cait: We are. Yes.

[00:55:40] Nicole: Yes. And so that gave me chills. And so I like to believe in that sort of future. And it might not happen even in our lifetime, or if we have kids, our kids lifetimes, right? Yeah. But the more, um, we have access to information, I do think that that is gonna change all of this.

[00:55:53] Cait: I think the thing about the arrow too is that it's so, I mean, the whole system is meant to point the arrow to the person right next to you, or your neighbor, or the person down the block or whatever proverbial

[00:56:03] Nicole: Yeah.

[00:56:03] Cait: Thing is most immediate to kind of like let go of that tension. When you're right, like collectively thinking and looking up and going, oh, the common enemy is not my neighbor, my friend, my lover, who's triggering, like who's bringing the, like, those are not the enemies. Can we collectively work together to point the arrow upward?

Mm-hmm. And I think I'm curious your thoughts on this because with like different protests and things going on and people gathering Yeah. Like what do you. I'm trying to think of the question I'm trying to ask, because I think sometimes there's this gap between what people think they can do mm-hmm. And what's impactful.

Mm-hmm. And like the ways that we can do it. Yeah. And so I'm curious too, like when you think about community and action, like how do you think about movement? How do you think about change making? Like what about community empowers us or what belief systems might limit us in, in that movement?

[00:56:58] Nicole: Yeah, I guess I think about trusting in the ripples.

We need people doing action everywhere, right? Mm-hmm. And, and then trusting in the ripples of those actions. And so even if that's slowing down to have that conversation with your friend that you see is definitely going, you know, sending you a seven minute voice message. Yeah. Because yeah, if you can slow down to be with them, right, then they can show up to love more people and the more that we trust that ripple, right?

Mm-hmm. And also take active steps, right? Like. We are a therapist, we actively work in this. Yeah. Right. We do. We all have to take active steps, but I do think that the personal is the political and if we show up in our personal lives with more loving and capacity and holding space. Yeah. Um, I think what gets tricky about that though is like we're, how far does that go?

You know, like you, I recently went through, you know, an experience, uh, with a community member that was pretty challenging, where the, the ways that they were processing conflict was, um, I don't conflict avoidance. Mm-hmm. Like didn't, like, really struggled to be able to discuss the conflict, would've run away, um, activated a lot of different traumas, right?

Mm-hmm. And so I've. Taking a step back. Yeah. What do you like, what, what, you know, like, of course I think everyone knows there's a very clear line of abuse, you know, and serious harm here. And, but these gray spaces where you can look at someone and be like, wow, like based on your life history and trauma, I can understand why you're showing up like this right now.

And it's actively impacting me in a negative way. And so it's just interesting to think about all this of like, you know, if we lived on a commune in the middle of the woods Yeah. Right. We would have no choice but to be like, let's work through this together. But because we live in Chicago and all this, we can kind of, you know, take a little step back.

And I think particularly in like, for me, a queer rock climbing poly community that gets real small. So it's real hard to take a step back, right? Mm-hmm. But like when you're, you know, heterosexual, monogamous person in Chicago, you could be like, fuck you, goodbye. You know? Totally. So it's just interesting and like, where, where do we still say like, I will be in community and help you go through rupture and repair, even though it's really draining for me.

Mm-hmm. I do not have the answers to this.

[00:59:02] Cait: Yeah. I'm curious into it because we have talked about this, we have talked about the teacher dynamic. This has been, I think, true in, in friend relationships and romantic or sexual relationships. And then it is very, it can be a very sweet place to when you've, when you've had a lot of experience, you wanna bestow a little bit of that.

Or at least for me, sometimes I look back on that and I'm like, oh, I remember that spot of not knowing as much. And it's a really exciting space. It has a lot of energy. The energy is very like, Ooh, what, what's next? What's coming? What's going on? And you know, it, it can be a little bit like contagious in a fun way where like, oh, I wanna join you in that.

I wanna join you. Or like, maybe I wanna usher some growth for you. And so now having had some experiences in the teacher role. How do you think about it now? Like what's, what is that moment where you're like, ah, gosh, this is not mine to support anymore, or this is worth supporting? How do you think about it?

[01:00:06] Nicole: Uh, I mean, I, from the previous question of how do we collectively heal, I still don't know how to answer that, right? Yeah. If I'm a finite human and if I wanna make a resource, like a podcast, all this stuff, I can't be attending to this person, you know? So I don't have answers. Yeah. I'm just acknowledging that.

Yeah. I think when I am making these decisions, it's kind of based on history that I've had with this person. Mm-hmm. Have I had many years with this person? Have they demonstrated the capacity to be willing to open, to reflect, mm-hmm. To hear, to change, like those sorts of pieces at this point, in terms of my attachment and if I were to like do sexual play or any sort of close proximity, I think about the, the nine tuning for and yeah.

I need someone who sees somewhat ish of the same world I can, I cannot take on a partner who is not able to do kitchen table dynamics to a degree, like, you know, at least garden table, which mm-hmm. Someone was asking me, what is that? You know, earlier today I was like, I love the delineation. Right. Such a good one.

Yeah. Right. For the listener who doesn't know garden table would be like, you know, I'm having my podcast anniversary party this week, right? Mm-hmm. If you can't come to that because you feel so jarringly complex that I have other lovers at that party. Yeah. I cannot get close to you romantically and sexually happy to have you as a friend.

Yeah. Happy to have you in this, but if your energy is so antagonistic that you could not show up for a party. Yeah. Oh God. Like I cannot, I cannot hold the hand through that because that is a psychological journey. And it takes a lot of resources. And so it's a tuning fork moment for me, for sure.

[01:01:45] Cait: Yeah. And I think it is, if you knew, talked about that ninth fork, it's like if that energy is too big, everything else Yes.

Is off. Yeah. I, I was having a conversation with a friend of mine who's, um, navigating some e and m stuff and we were talking about, I love this idea. We were talking about the idea that when you're in a dynamic, whether your partner is dealing with shame from something they experienced in a narrative around sexuality from when they were younger or whatever it might be, maybe it's jealousy coming into spaces and seeing their partner with someone else.

[01:02:19] Nicole: Right.

[01:02:20] Cait: But that's actually another partner in the room and acknowledging that. Mm. And like is there space, you know, if you have a partner, granted, we all have backgrounds and various things that influence how we show up in relationship. But when you're thinking about how many other partners internally you're bringing to the table and how much relationship like I have, let's say with some shame and some jealousy and some whatever else, like how many other partners am I bringing to the table and what kind of relationship do I have with them?

And accountability, do I have to creating comfort in the discomfort for myself? Mm-hmm. And those dynamics, because you're tuning fork examples, reminding me maybe you bring another person into the mix, but also how many other partnerships or parts of them right are coming to the table? And so, yeah, I think your delineation between you had said something like, oh, depends on how much they're willing to do their own work.

Because you've read the books, you've done the thing, you've had your, your curiosity lead you down your own pathway. And it's really sweet when someone looks up and says like, well, I've seen you do a lot of this work, whether that's in social justice or polyamorous education and experience, whatever it might be.

But you've also done a lot of the work. Yeah. And so it's also like wondering how much that other person is willing to do that work Right. Of their own right alongside your existing knowledge. Mm-hmm. Because you're not. A library. Right, exactly. Exactly. Like people can't check out all the books that you've already read from your perspective.

Right. Because it also matters what they think about it too, right?

[01:03:56] Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. And it's tricky because I think all of us are gonna have a different capacity of what feels too far and not right. For mine, it's the podcast party and at least being able to show up and be functional. Right? Yeah. In the past, that's not what I would've said.

Right. So my level of check-in is changing. Right. In the past I was Christian. Mm-hmm. Having friends who were married to pastors, right? Yeah. And so like, I wanted to have all my friends have God at the center of their life. That was what I wanted. That was your priority at the time. Yeah. Yes. And so I remember being with one of my lovers a couple of years ago, and you know that play party that we were gonna record the episode about?

I remember just asking, I was like, do you wanna play with anybody else? Are they, well, we're there. And he said, yeah, maybe. And I started sobbing. I started sobbing. Yeah. I was like, I didn't need to ask that question. I was like, I feel like I'm holding you back. I can't do this. I was literally like, I was like, I need to lay on the floor.

I need to lay on the floor right now. Dark place. That's exactly what I need to do. When I feel really activated and nauseous and sick, I lay on the fucking ground and I go, okay, I'm gonna take a deep breath. Um, and then even, I remember one of the nights. He had another partner, which I knew about. I had met her everything and we were laying in bed together and he was like, oh, like she was over the other night.

And then I just started sobbing. 'cause I was like, she was in this bed, the same one that I'm in. Yeah. Yeah. And I just started crying. I just started crying. So I'm so grateful that my lover at the time stayed with me and didn't go like this doesn't fit. Yeah. However, I would've completely understood.

Mm-hmm. If he said, Hey, like this just doesn't seem like it's in alignment because we seem to be in two different places. Right. So I think a lot of us are always looking for people that are kind of in a similar zone. Right. And so as we shift and move, that's gonna change. And then that's the grief of the relationships that kind of either grow with you mm-hmm.

Or change and go in other directions. Right. Yeah. And we, we all see that even friendships that you've had for years can kind of shift into other ways and you have to grieve

[01:05:49] Cait: Yeah.

[01:05:50] Nicole: That things are no longer in alignment.

[01:05:51] Cait: Yeah. It goes back to what we were talking about with reorienting. Mm-hmm. Where.

Sometimes you outgrow someone in a certain area and that was like the thing that kind of kept you close. Yeah. And having trust that if you're gonna be close again, that there will be different growth that aligns in different ways over time. Mm-hmm. And can you tolerate that? Think about the word tolerate a lot in these spaces where it's like, how much can I sit with that discomfort?

How much can I sit with the change? Mm-hmm. Because the alternative is like fighting it, right? Is like trying to manipulate yourself into being a different version of yourself to fit the dynamic or wishing so much that the other person would speed up their growth or be different in a way that feels comfortable.

Like, that's not the truth of what's happening.

[01:06:30] Nicole: Right. And so, and you don't have to drag your face on the ground with like, 'cause I, the tolerance thing. Mm-hmm. I, you know, with the relationship I was in in the last year, that was really painful. I was sending you the crying voice messages. Yeah. You know, I kept, I kept saying like, he's new to Poly, he's new to Poly, he's new to poly.

I can tolerate this. I am the person who wrote a dissertation. I have to say. You're like, I wrote, I, I know this. I need this. Yeah. I can do this. Yeah. And I kept saying that I can do this. Yeah. And my nervous system kept getting worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and, and worse to a degree where I was.

God, I got so sick. It was, yeah. I don't, I I got so sick when I ended up, I ended up going to the birthday party of the person. Then he had lied to me about, oh my God, I was taking DayQuil shots to show up at that party. I was like, I mean, I can tolerate this. Yes. Like there is a level that when I look back on that, I, I know I did end the relationship and reorient at some point.

Yeah. But like, almost, if I could say back to my previous self is like, you don't have to tolerate that. You don't, you can leave. Yes. You can leave sooner, darling.

[01:07:35] Cait: Yes. Please be right. Oh my God. Like, be gentle. Choose a gentle, gentler path. Yeah. And you know, I think the thing about Tolerate is interesting is like you had, you had said something about dragging where it's like, right, there's a difference between tolerating, which I think has an upper limit and then it very quickly is dragging.

There's not really a step in between. It's sort of like, I've made space for this and I can. I can sit in this and then as soon as you're not sitting in it and you are very much proverbially, taking yourself and pulling yourself behind yourself. Yeah. That's too far. Yeah. That is too far of a spot. I'm curious too, just looking back on that relationship, like yes.

I'm actually gonna ask you a really broad question, okay? Mm-hmm. But now that you have some space from it, like what do you see about it? What do you wanna say about it? What do you wanna say to yourself? The ver the version and the younger version of you that was in it.

[01:08:30] Nicole: Hmm. You're gonna fall in love with him 'cause he has a lot of the qualities of your dad.

Mm Ooh. Yeah. That's real. Ooh. Talk to me about the qualities. Um, adventurous, outdoorsy, you know, bravado. Mm-hmm. Confidence, hard worker, all that sort of stuff like Yeah. You know, um. Literally gym managers, you know, the whole thing. You know, like the whole thing. Yeah. And so like, I didn't know all of that.

Right. And so, um, and I think I got so wildly optimistic about finding my second poly partner. Mm-hmm. I was like, oh my God. It can all happen. Yeah. It can all be possible. Mm-hmm. Here it is. I found my two people. Yeah. And I am essentially set. Yeah. All done. And so that's kind of what I sat in mentally. I was like, I'm all done.

Yeah. And so I really have that confidence that like, this is it and these are the people I'm gonna ride to the end of my life with. And yeah. Here I am with change relationships with both of them. Yeah. And having other dynamics that have deepened and more complexity. And so I guess I would, I would tell myself that, um, just watch how much you're projecting onto this relationship with all of them.

Right. Totally humbly. Mm-hmm. Um, continue to center yourself and invest in the relationships that speak to you. You know, it's also like I had to go through that to learn a lot. Absolutely. So it's like. It's like I wouldn't undo it all, you know? 'cause you have, you have to. Yeah. You know, we feel called for a reason, I think, to unpack certain things.

And I learned so much in that. And I'm grateful for the friendship that we do have now. Mm-hmm. And it's gentle and all the things that I have learned in community through that.

[01:10:10] Cait: Yeah. Yeah. And it makes sense to me. I, I remember when you had first started seeing each other, like the energy in the room was very palpable.

It was sort of as if. Like a puzzle piece had fit in into the dynamic where you're like, oh, this is actually like the kind of element of relational dynamic that I've been craving, and so I'm gonna like plop this puzzle piece in. Right. I'm not sure if that resonates, but it does. But energetically, I remember experiencing it that way as a person watching it happen.

Right?

[01:10:38] Nicole: Yeah. But compared to the relationship I'm going to couples therapy now with out of pure joy to build an intentional space. Yes. To like really do like it makes, when I look back on it, I was like, that was the puzzle piece from the wrong box. Like it's totally, it's hard to sit with your consciousness now and then look back and be like, wow, it felt right at the time.

And now where I'm at, I'm like, absolutely not.

[01:10:56] Cait: And I wonder too, in the puzzle metaphor too, like whatever that puzzle was that you were doing. Like, yes, that piece plopped in. Mm-hmm. But I think the shape of where it is Sure. Has evolved. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. And so it's not so much that he was like the wrong puzzle piece, it's just that like the space that it fit in mm-hmm.

Was a little different than it is now and you know more about the pockets of that puzzle piece.

[01:11:19] Nicole: And that grief woke me up to like a really deep commitment to relationship anarchy, like I've never sat through in my life before. Yeah. At least. And, and maybe I'll go through grief like that again. Mm-hmm.

You know, inevitably it's inevitable, but, uh. That grief really made me take a big step back and say like, I'm committed to my community. I'm committed to my community. Not a person, not one person. I'm committed to this whole circle and what I'm building in this circle, whether I'm fucking this person or not, I'm committed to the circle that I'm building.

And so,

[01:11:48] Cait: yeah,

[01:11:48] Nicole: that grief like sent me down a pretty radical spiral in the fall of last year to really reorient to

[01:11:54] Cait: yeah.

[01:11:55] Nicole: Community in a whole new way that I'll, I'll never forget.

[01:11:58] Cait: And this is the thing we were talking about, like granted Yeah. We're in a big city, so the intersections are gonna be different.

Yeah. That's somewhere more rurally. One thing that has remained a through line always about you that I've noticed mm-hmm. Is the data dedication to community. Mm-hmm. Where it made so much sense to me that like, because you were in the rock climbing world and because of the intersections of non-monogamy in that space that Yeah.

Like finding someone who was directly in that world who was like managing a space that you were in. Like there were just so many intersections. Sure. And also. Being drawn to spaces like that where you can be mm-hmm. The multitudes of yourself in so many aspects is really beautiful. And we talked about it before.

Yeah. It's also very grief ridden because when dynamics do change in those spaces, you're in those spaces. Yeah. Like, you're not gonna stop rock climbing. No.

[01:12:49] Nicole: You're not gonna stop. My psychiatrist recommended that. I'm like, no girl.

[01:12:53] Cait: That's, that's like part of my Yeah. I was like, you can't do that. That's a part of me.

I can't imagine you not rock climbing. Um, the, just that, yeah. That's like, but that's a choice, right. Because you could have, right. You could have said, I'm gonna, this is uncomfortable. Yeah. I don't wanna do this. And your orbital system mm-hmm. Is so much so that. When we have climbed together, you have, you have friends that have become lovers.

Lovers. Like there's so many intersecting pieces and those people share space with each other. Mm-hmm. And maybe they're nervous about it. Maybe there are conversations about it beforehand that you're feeling they're feeling whatever it might be. Yeah. But that those people can all exist in the same space and share joy together.

Yeah. And like see your joy with someone else. And I think the more that's a practice skill, the more it just becomes second nature. Mm-hmm. Where like, when you can truly see someone you love enjoying the multitude of ways to be loved. Mm-hmm. It's, and it makes, made me laugh when people would say like, oh, like I just don't feel that.

I was like, that is a muscle. Mm. That is a practiced muscle around understanding that it conversion, you don't need conversion. Sure. Yeah. That you don't need to be the singular source, source of joy. You are not singularly responsible for someone's happiness. Yeah. Like if you love someone. In the way that I was talking about partnership and, and seeing everyone as a partner and everything as a partner.

Yeah. When you see someone experiencing joy rock climbing, right. See someone experiencing joy, hugging another partner, or getting excited about another partner, having a kid and like getting involved in that. Yeah. Like whatever the multitude might be of ways to be involved in someone's life. To just be like, this person I really love and adore is still finding so much joy in these spaces.

Yeah. And so, yeah, I just, I've always been really in awe of your dedication to maintaining community, even when it feels a little murky. A little rocky. Yeah. A little unsure. Yeah. That the community actually is like the anchor point.

[01:14:51] Nicole: Yeah.

[01:14:52] Cait: Like your dedication to community is actually the anchor point.

[01:14:54] Nicole: Yeah yeah. Because yeah, they hold me.

[01:14:57] Cait: Yeah. With partnerships, we had gotten into this idea that like. Uh, reorientation. Mm-hmm. And partnerships changing. Mm-hmm. Like when you think about partnership now, what are some things that you're like, Ooh, that is like, I have learned that's really vital for me, or I can't imagine my life without that element in a partner?

[01:15:17] Nicole: Yeah. I think. Um, shared vision. Mm-hmm. Which doesn't have to mean one, it definitely doesn't mean the escalator and it can Right. But it doesn't mean like, um, I can have lots of different visions. Right? Yeah. Like one of our lovers, uh, or like people in our shared community wants to move to Berlin and go have kids out there, and I was like.

You know, I'm so sad that you're planning to be leave Chicago. This is really unfortunate. But, um, as I saw her the other night to have dinner, I, I told her, I was like, you know, I'm really grateful that our relationship has been so spacious and so committed and that I know that wherever you move in the world, I'll be able to fly to you and see you.

You know? And so we like shared a kiss and we departed for the night. Like, and that feels really good that like mm-hmm. We have a shared vision of love and care for one another. Yes. Right? And that, that's the vision is like shared and, and supporting the other partners that come into our, their lives, right?

Yeah. So that's the vision. It's not like the 2.5 kids in a house, the logistics, right. And not that you can't have that vision. I am talking about those visions with people, right. So let's get that, you know, but like, but like, just that at least we have a shared vision of what that means. And so for me, like yeah, the level of garden party being able to like be at the same space, um, which.

Kitchen table really is the dream. Yeah. You're traveling together, um, and all of that. And so I think it's that shared space of, of liberation and around our relationships of support. I think if I get to the end of my career, one of the biggest things that I hope I can, well, two things. There's big dream number one is like end rape culture like this.

Yeah. Big, big dream, right? Right. Mm-hmm. But dream number two would be to teach or to invite the world to reflect on the fact that we all have multiple relationships. Like you were sharing that, like seeing someone else be in joy, et cetera, et cetera. Like every single one of us on this planet has multiple relationships.

Yeah. Many of us do not have sex with more than one person at a time. Mm-hmm. In our current context. Right. But we all have multiple relationships and I think if we got into that frame, if you're wanting to do. Monogamy that gets a little bit easier, right? Like once you start to have that frame. But everyone, I think should have the frame that we all have multiple relationships.

Yes. That we should tend to and care for. And that's like the whole relationship anarchy thing. And I think that that then opens it up where it's like. I should care about all the relationships that my partner and people are in. Right? Yeah. All of them can be just as quote unquote threatening. Mm-hmm. You know, it's not just the sexual ones.

They could have a friend that they run off and wanna go climbing for two months in the woods and never just dunno. Yeah. You And it's just like we all already have multiple relationships and so like that frame I think would unlock a lot of consciousness for people that we currently don't have. Yeah.

I'm single. You're what? Yeah. You're what? What said?

[01:18:07] Cait: No, you're not exactly right. I'm like, even if you're in a moment in life where like maybe you are a little more like detached from community. I'm like, you have a relationship with your, like that's always the thing that I go back to is even in moments where I've been like more on my own.

Mm-hmm. You're still really in relationship with yourself. You're in relationship with the environment that you're in.

[01:18:26] Nicole: How, how did you get that food on your table?

[01:18:28] Cait: Right? You walked to the grocery store, you took the bus, or you drove, like you have a relationship with Start to think about those things. Yes.

Those are all relationships. Where did that food come from and the values you were talking about? The alignment of vision.

[01:18:39] Nicole: Yeah.

[01:18:40] Cait: Is like, right. Can you find spaces and people in the world that have that shared vision? Mm-hmm. Because not every relationship, you were talking about this, but not every relationship needs the shared vision of where are we gonna live in two years.

[01:18:52] Nicole: No, absolutely not. I have so many lovers that I don't have any of that with. Yes.

[01:18:56] Cait: And then there's some that you're beginning to explore that with. Right. Exactly. I am gonna ask how that feels because it's new, it's some new energy. How does it feel to be exploring those pieces?

[01:19:09] Nicole: Yeah, I'm all tender. About what, what about it, Cait ?

It's tender. I mean, like

[01:19:16] Cait: yeah, like where, what do I wanna ask you about this?

[01:19:19] Nicole: Fabulous. Because it a real, okay. Okay. There you go. To hear feels fabulous. Feels fabulous. Yes. Yes. It feels fabulous, I guess. Um, because this person, I'm like thinking about him as I'm doing it. And you're so smiley. I love him.

Yeah. Um, he has a similar vision of relationship anarchy. Did I tell you when we met that he had my art? No, I didn't tell you this. Okay. No. So like, so mind you, complexities, remember the, I'm sick at a party at, at the, the birthday party of the Yes. Yes. Okay. Mind you, you're feeling really off. Yeah. Yeah. I'm there.

Not with yourself. Wow. I'm there and my phone has the, like relationship anarchist, um, a that I designed for my website mm-hmm. On my screensaver. And he goes, oh, I, I've seen that art before. I used that for one of the podcasts or one of the playlist that I made on Spotify. And I was like, no way, dude.

That's my art mine. He's like, I just Googled it and found it. I was like, Hmm,

[01:20:15] Cait: that feels so serendipitous. Oh my God. And I also love too that it was this moment of that it that he didn't know that it was, there's something very sweet about not knowing that it was yours. Yes. Yeah. That like, they were just very aware that it was something meaningful to them.

Mm-hmm. Totally independent of it being related directly to you. Right. And then it gained meaning. In, its in its layers. Yes. Yeah. That it came to having layers.

[01:20:42] Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah. So then I was like, send me the playlist. Yeah. What do you think about relationship anarch? And then we just started like, you know, and so I think even like that idea of having kids or doing any of that is definitely a really complex relationship because growing up in Christianity, it was a default, like, I have to do this, right?

Yes. And so then the idea, once I got out of it, I was like. Fuck that shit. I'm a radical feminist. I'm never gonna do that. Right. I had an abortion. Mm-hmm. Right. Which was the right move at the time. Yeah. And then I started dating, um, other fems and women, and once I started having that experience, I was like, oh, I could have a kid as long as I'm like, quote unquote, the dad.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, I don't wanna, I wanna be able to Bad energy. Yeah. The cool dad, right? Yes. Exactly. And so then that reopened the, the window into it of like a different world around it. And then it's kind of been like a maybe, maybe, maybe. Mm-hmm. So to find someone who has the same level of openness around sexuality, the same levels of openness and vision for relationships, I was like, yeah, let's do this together.

Like I, yeah, yeah. You know? Yeah. So it. It's just vibrating at a different level in that sense, when you have like that deep exhale of alignment. Yes. And saying, I'm not trying, like with my past lovers, uh, that I've had to reorient with 'cause I still have other lovers that are still like deep in alignment.

Yeah. Again, different alignments. Mm-hmm. Right. Um, but in a lot of my past lovers, I feel like I've been trying to pull them into a certain space of like, this is, you know, trying to get them somewhere. Yeah. Where I don't have to do that anymore, which is really nice.

[01:22:09] Cait: And I think that that journey, when I think about it, it's such, it's such a space of clarity, right?

Like you kind of have traversed many, uh, dynamic a thought, whatever it might be to land on this place of like invitation. Mm-hmm. It's always interesting when people think about like changing a partner or adjusting, like they're like, come over here. I always think about it as an invitation mm-hmm. Where like inviting something and saying, Hey, this is a need I have, is just an invitation to stay in.

Right. In connection. And sometimes those invitations are not. That invitation's not wanted, or it's too tricky for that other person. They're not there. That's comfortable space for them. Mm-hmm. So now that you're experiencing a connection where those invitations feel more fluid and feel more ease, useful.

How's your body feeling?

[01:22:56] Nicole: It's so peaceful. It's so nice. Compared to like dragging my face on the floor. Mm-hmm. Like tolerate, tolerate, tolerate. This feels like such a deep exhale where I just, I feel like I can dance. Yeah. I feel like I can breathe. I feel like I can love other people with much more presence because I'm not in my head.

Yeah. Like losing my mind about another dynamic. I can be more present in my work, my creative practices, the podcast. Right. And so it comes back to that ninth tuning fork thing that I'll never forget. Mm-hmm. In terms of proximity, I think you can have tuning, you know, my family being a tuning fork that's pretty not in alignment often with Mormonism and all that stuff.

And it's like, it's not like I'm cutting those people out. It's just the levels of proximity. How much do I share, how much? And I remember us having lots of conversations about that of like, how much do you share with people who don't have the same views? Because sharing can often lead to hurt. Yes. When they don't see you in certain ways.

[01:23:47] Cait: Yeah. Which is like an act of love, I think, to oneself. Yeah. To know that not every part of you and not for reasons related to anything about your value, your worth, your humanity are not always, uh, comfortable for other people. Yeah. And that's not actually your thing to navigate. Right. And it sometimes is the more peaceful route to just keep that part close to home and with people that it's safe with.

Mm-hmm. Even though that's really sad and really tender and really grief filled too, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm like, I just, I wanna share something that you had shared with me a while ago that really struck me is you were with this person you love so much, and you, I think you were laying down and you said, is this real?

[01:24:30] Nicole: What? I say that a lot. And they said, this is real.

[01:24:34] Cait: This is. That recognition that you could have something that's really in alignment with who you are and that you don't need to change or adjust a million parts of you. And of course, like compromise and change is part of relationship. Right. But it should be your choice.

Mm-hmm. It should be your choice around like where you wanna wiggle, where you wanna surrender a little bit. And that a lot of that is really based in safety and like the sense that somebody is sharing that vision with you. Yeah. Because I think that future dreaming is such, I think about it as like another love language.

Oh sure. To be able to, it is like, I think there's very few things as lovely and full of like adoration and sweetness as a partner. Thinking about future moments with you and saying, you are part of something beyond this moment for me. Mm-hmm. And I just really feel that, and this dynamic would be, yeah. It just like, it feels really sweet to know that you have someone in your life.

That is thinking in those ways with you. Absolutely. And you brought up the idea of going to couples therapy. Right, right. I was like, hell yes. What? 'cause you could have brought that up, right? Like that's like right in your back pocket. Totally. And to be with someone who's meeting you in that place and saying, I mean, it's essentially saying like, and I'm, I'm curious what their take on this would be too.

But because you're in this space, because you're in the therapeutic world, because you're in this healing universe to say like, let's go to a place that allows us to do that on an equal playing field. Oh yeah, totally. Like let's, let's equalize that a little bit. Mm-hmm. And that is like a very supportive gift I think.

Yes. To the relationship. Absolutely. And we talked about this too, which I love, which is that therapy is not a crisis space all the time. You've been seeing each other for a little while and that there's something really nice about. Just getting into that space together when you're still like blossoming into what's happening.

Yeah, totally. That having a facilitated person who's like, Hey, yep. I'm here to help you grow. Yeah. Is really See the blind spots.

[01:26:32] Nicole: Totally. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And. Yeah. I feel like there's been such, there's always that same where it's like you need to be single. Right? We've already kind of deconstructed that You need to be single to figure yourself out before you can be in relationship.

Yeah. I think the more nuanced take would be like, you need to reflect on your relational patterns and your concept of self and how you relate to other people. 'cause again, if we all have multiple relationships Yeah. There is no single point and you're gonna heal in relationship. Right? Yeah. And so, um, I'm so grateful that all these different connections, whether it's you, someone who we have like shared vision of building community Yes.

In terms of people who wanna liberate play, you know, or my lover who's gonna move to Berlin, or my other lover who had their relationship anarchist. You know, a like, the more that I have all these shared connections, the more my concept of self feels really good. Mm. Like I feel great spending alone time.

I feel great. You know, just having all this time by myself because like I have a community that loves all of me. So all of my mirrors are looking back so lovingly, I just, yeah. I get really frustrated when people are like, you need to be alone to figure yourself. It's like. That also, that's not how you got into that space where relational being just, oh my God, I don't think it's realistic.

[01:27:38] Cait: And there also, you know, there are those moments where someone starts dating someone when they're in their young twenties and maybe that partnership is the partnership for them and they still need to do that work, but in partnership. And I think it's unrealistic to say like. This is the narrative path for every single person who's ever gonna be in a relationship.

And this is all the stuff you need to figure out before you're ever close to someone else, because you're gonna be living life and experiencing things all over the place. You have no idea what might trip you up. Right. You have no idea what's gonna bring up a little thing that when you were three years old, you're like, oh man, like that 3-year-old part of me is coming back up.

But I don't know how to communicate from that space. Like, yeah, you ca there's no evolve, perfect. Evolve space. There is a commitment to looking in the mirror. Sure. Absolutely. There's a commitment to looking in the mirror. Yes.

[01:28:19] Nicole: And could you imagine when I was going through the grief in the fall, I had the person that I reoriented with and then three other lovers.

Yeah. Could you imagine being like, hi, sorry, three other lovers. Um, I'm going through a breakup. Right. And, uh, I'm gonna need to go live in a cave for a little bit. Yeah.

[01:28:34] Cait: Like laying on the floor for a little while. That seems like a great way to have some moments to yourself, but like completely disappearing from all your other relational commitments.

Not realistic. No. Not realistic. Not at all. No. I mean, obviously I could literally muse and talk with you all day. We're doing, we're doing it. I also know we have a recording limit,

[01:28:55] Nicole: so Oh, that's a good point.

[01:28:56] Cait: Yeah. Okay.

[01:28:57] Nicole: Well, we're about at one hour and 30, so yeah. Maybe roll through the two questions. Okay.

Then we can do the closing and, we'll,

[01:29:03] Cait: that sounds great. Yeah. Okay. All right. Yes. Transitions. What is one area where you are still learning to have compassion for yourself?

[01:29:12] Nicole: Yeah. I think I am so ridiculously, wildly passionate about this, that I need to know how to take breaks. Mm. I, yes. Because I get, especially at the current context of everything going on, this is my corner of activism, what I do and like what I wanna do.

And I see so many people hurting and their relationship to their bodies, their relationship to sexuality, play relationship to other people that I, uh, like scream internally and want to run at the podcast wall. And my business so hard. Mm-hmm. So hard, so hard that when I get stressed out about the world, I think I go into this like, um, you know, fight, flight, freeze, spa.

I definitely go into like, um, flight of like, but it's work flight where it's like, I must work on podcast. Must do this. Yeah. So I think it's just like learning to take a deep breath and relax. But then also what we said earlier, life is so short. Right? So it's a little bit of that, but the balance.

[01:30:07] Cait: Yeah.

Yeah. To bring context too, to what, when you were talking about it, I think that urgency is like really fiery. Yeah. And really important. It's, and even on your face when you were talking about it, like squinched and like bumped the microphone and like really in it and. I always think about it as like, um, as having like a fire that's sustainable and a raging fire.

Yeah. Right. Like for a raging fire, you're running around your house, you're like, what's, is there a paper? Are there, what can I throw in the fire? It's like to keep that like ever glowing, ginormous, campfire going, when an actuality, like getting more comfortable with that sense of the fire is me. Mm-hmm.

And it's not going anywhere. Right. And it is self-sustained and like, what can I do to keep it at a level where I can always see it? Right. And it's always there. Right. And so when you think about rest, like what are, what are you doing for rest these days?

[01:31:01] Nicole: Uh, that's a good question. Deep breaths, exhales.

[01:31:04] Cait: Mm-hmm.

[01:31:05] Nicole: I watch movies, I relax, you know? What kind of movies are you watching? I usually watch Romcoms and, but that's, look, look, watch. Here I go. I mean, and then I hyperly of course, go, this is so bad. This is me watching Love Is Blind. I'm like, oh my God. Research. I watch that and I go, this is research, research.

When am I not working, girl? You know? Totally. Um, but no, I, I do, I do take time where I leave the phone at home and I go to the beach. Mm-hmm. And I am present with the beach. Yeah. And I'm present with the beach. And so much of what I do is also play and joy and you know what I mean? Like the podcast itself is its own form of play.

So I do feel connected to that. But Resting is definitely rock climbing and yeah. Being in community, showing up for different things, going to dinner with my lovers, you know, where they wanna go to dinner. Not me, you know, like, just like, sure y'all go, you know? So like, I like to eat. Yeah, exactly. Um, petting my cat, fat cat, who I am really shocked, has not come into the recording once today.

She is taken is a donut. Right now. It's just a full on, on donut.

[01:32:04] Cait: When you go to the beach Uhhuh or when you're rock climbing. As if those were people. Mm. As if like they were personas relationships. Yeah. What do they, what do they have to tell you?

[01:32:15] Nicole: Um, I. Usually in rock climbing, I'm reminded that I'm stronger than I think.

[01:32:20] Cait: Mm. Mm-hmm.

[01:32:21] Nicole: Because often I'm like, uh, my, I mean, your internal dialogue always changes, but often I'm like, oh, I can't do that. I can't hit that hole. I don't know if I can do that. And then I'll go for it and land and be like, oh shit, I can't do this. And so that's usually the lesson I get out of that, where I'm like, okay, reminder to self Nicole.

Like, you often think you can't, but you're gonna go for it and you're gonna land it. Mm-hmm. Um, and the beach definitely comes back to a lot of like California roots. Yeah. Of, you know, like. Just home and being in my body and feeling the sun and nature and something that's bigger than us. Right. Yeah. 'cause at least in Chicago, like Michigan looks like an ocean.

It's not, it does, but it does remind you of the scale, right. Of just like I am just a small little dot. Mm-hmm. On a big moving dot and a large, big universe. Yeah. You know, that is too, we still don't know the size of, so No. That scale is helpful.

[01:33:15] Cait: That makes sense. And there's not, I always think about like Michigan as an ocean without sharks.

Mm-hmm. It's very deep. I mean, like Michigan is, yeah. It is massive. And there's a lot we can't see down there and mm-hmm. You know, just trusting that it's safe to swim and jump in and Yeah. All those pieces. And I, when I've seen you climb, the thing that always strikes me. Is sometimes you'll get like a little nervous before climbing and then as soon as you're on the wall, I'm like, how much time till she gets to the top?

Like, like this is a matter of mere moments. Sure. Like this is just absolutely a non-issue. I appreciate that. And just seeing you too, like be up there and so honed in. Mm. Too, it's like the same kind of presence you bring to a lot of the work that you do where I'm like, thank you. Nicole is one with the wall.

The wall is Nicole, and Nicole is the wall. And that's why I keep going. Yeah. Yeah. Every Sunday it's really good for us all. I'm really glad that you're finding moments of rest. Oh yeah. Because I think that the work that you're doing in this world requires moments of rest and the whole idea that rest is productive.

Oh yeah. And that you also are like very deserving of a moment to take a deep breath of a moment, to be with yourself and obviously the work that you're doing. So impactful. You had said before like if somebody doesn't have, have a lot of queer friends Right. Or e and m friends, like the podcast is a friend.

Yeah, absolutely. I think about that. Like resources are like, they bring in that energy for us. Yeah, totally. And I think that in order to do the work you're doing long term, it's a reminder to everyone really. Yeah. That you have to take those moments. Yeah. To integrate, to make sense of things. Like you were saying, like going through the closet and looking at old P like Yeah.

You know that and like incorporating that and slowing down enough to make sense of it. Yeah. That requires rest. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that if anyone is the poster child for rest, it is that cat. Yeah. Cat fat. Cat is deep in rest. Literally deep in rest. I'm wondering too. Mm-hmm. What is one thing that you're proud of that you've experienced in the last year?

I mean, I guess

[01:35:12] Nicole: I'm just. I am proud that I've done this. Mm-hmm. I think that's what I've said the last few years that I've said I would do this. Yeah. I started, you know, I'm so grateful for all the podcast guests who have made this with me because I couldn't do this without the podcast guests. Like, people like you, people who were sitting with me and making this.

Yeah. And also when I first started, it wasn't like I had a co, you know, I had, yeah. I didn't have like, I didn't have like another teammate to look at me and be like, we're doing this together. So the fact that I said I am doing this and I'm gonna do this once a week, every week, and I'm committed. At first, I just did a year commitment where I told myself one year and then assess.

Mm-hmm. And after that was great. You know, two years. And I guess that has been the tradition for me. It was to check in at every year. And at this point it's like, oh, this is my life. I'm not going to not do this. Yeah. Um, you know, so I didn't even think about asking that myself this year. But, um, yeah, to really have, keep doing it and to have gone through all the stuff that I've gone through school to let my voice be, um.

Louder. I guess. One of my friends today climbing was like, oh, what have you learned, you know, in this last year? And I really, I didn't even say anything. I opened my chest. I was like this. Yeah. I was like, you wanna know where sex? Let's talk about sex. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, like, let's do it. You know?

And so that, that confidence and not being like, oh, sex, you know, like that real like,

[01:36:31] Cait: mm-hmm

[01:36:31] Nicole: I can do this and I can really do this. Um, and also the ways that my erotic self pleasure has been linked to my. Ability to do all of this, right? Yeah. Like I have a deep connection to my self pleasure that is deeply connected to, um, my creative practice.

And so that is a part of my creative practice is to be like deeply connected to my self pleasure and make sure that that is a part of every, every episode.

[01:36:56] Cait: I, it just, I'm really enamored with this answer because I think that two things come to mind. Yeah. One is that sometimes I think people see someone who's so comfortable in this space mm-hmm.

And are like, you were born this way. Mm-hmm. Oh my God. I had, this was like John, anxiety disorder. I was taking an SS arrived. Yeah. Huh. Yeah. Grew up in a religious community, like Yeah. There's so many things that could have changed the way that you think about yourself. About sexuality. Yeah. About connection and relational work and how many little choices in the road.

You had to say, actually, I'm gonna go this way, actually, I'm gonna go this way. And you're like, that road. I don't know what's like, it's, especially when you know what's down the other road. That's a safe road. Yeah. At least in the knowledge of what's down there. Maybe it's not safe for you, but that there's a not a known element and the decision to over time, take that other road.

Yeah. And be trusting. This is like ver who you are now and who you will evolve to be is so much about small decisions Yeah. That you've made. And so I think like part of the pride in being proud of yourself too is like that evolution of so many little decisions that you made that were brave.

[01:38:04] Nicole: Yeah, yeah.

[01:38:05] Cait: Yeah. If you were looking back at that person who was just getting started, just getting the podcast equipment together, what do you have to say to them? I don't even know.

And, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna gently push you to say something that's rooted in like a lot of compassion. Oh yeah. And a lot of pride.

[01:38:30] Nicole: Well, it's funny because I have. My memories that come up annually. Yeah. So I got at this time, like I had a, a video of me from my first podcast recording doing it, and this is finals week.

Mm-hmm. So I had released my podcast during finals week because I was avoiding studying for my finals because I was like, you know what, let's do this instead. Yeah. Right. Um, so I guess it's funny, I know Ray's really funny. Um, I guess if I would look back to her, I would just, you know, I would first off say, Hey, I love you.

Yeah. Good. You're really powerful. Your vision is, is so on fire and it's gonna take you to so many places that you will not even be able to predict. Mm-hmm. And there's gonna be folks having listening parties. Yeah. Writing to you from around the world. Mm-hmm. That they're so grateful for the content that you're making.

And also that, like, this podcast has kept me alive Yeah. In so many ways. Like this concept of self. Because before I had this really big community of people with similar values. I remember at the very beginning tapping into like, recording with dominatrix, recording with sex educators and poly speakers and being like, I really like their life.

Yeah. I would like to move towards that life. Yeah. I don't know how. Mm-hmm. One of the first episodes you go way back, I'm like, what's vet life? Yeah. I, I knew nothing Kate. Mm-hmm. And so like this. Like, what I would say to myself is, Hey, you're about to go down a wild like Alice in Wonderland rabbit hole journey, but you're gonna get so connected to yourself and your voice.

Mm-hmm. Trust yourself and, and keep following that thread of, of passion and what speaks to you.

[01:40:06] Cait: Yeah. And then not knowing is actually an incredibly powerful space that I think we're also hung up on this idea of, I mean, speaking of discomfort, that's a really uncomfortable space to not know things. To not know every right word to say, or every facet of what you're talking about.

And you still started it and you trusted that you would learn along the way. And that is, I think just like a testament to where you are now. Mm. Because like you said, didn't know what fat life was. No. That's like back pocket. Right. Exactly. Lot of things compliance now. Right. Exactly. Like all of these are just like absolutely a part of your everyday vernacular.

Mm-hmm. Part of how you think about things. And that this, even the podcast for you has been a journey. Yeah. For, for you. Yeah. Yeah. Very much an evolutionary journey. Chat cat is joining us.

[01:40:52] Nicole: Yeah. I was just say that listeners might have heard that bell over there. I know. Fred, come here. Come hang out. Yeah, you're welcome.

You kind of missed the show, but

[01:41:03] Cait: you're here now. There's always time in the final hour. Yeah, exactly. In the final hour. And I think thinking about that journey for you and what's coming up next, I have a final question for you. Yes. Which is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was normal? I know I thought a lot about this.

[01:41:23] Nicole: Yeah. Since I asked everyone, I thought about it. I thought about it, and, uh. I don't even know what I said last year. I should check. Yeah. I'm curious. Yeah, me too. Yeah. Uh, I know the year before I said nipple hairs. Ooh. Well thanks. Yeah, because I was like, I love a nipple hair. Yeah. No one told me that they were gonna change with age and color.

No. Yeah. No one told me that. So that was definitely two years ago. I don't remember what I said last year, but I, it's funny, I used to pluck

[01:41:46] Cait: mine and now I look down at it and I'm like, hi buddy. Yeah. French. I'm like, why would you, you're here. Like you're here whether I want you here or not, so I might as well befriend you.

I appreciate you naming that. I'm like, you're kind of cute. Yeah. It's only on one nipple too. Mm. Interesting. Yeah. The other one's totally like no hair for me. Men's consistent. Yeah, sure.

[01:42:04] Nicole: For sure. But no one's about that. Nobodys about it. So like I was like hating my body. Yeah. So that was two years ago. I was like, someone needs to normalize.

Somebody needs to normalize nipple hair. Yeah, exactly. Glad yeah, for sure. I think this year I. It's cliche, but change. Yeah. I've just gone through so much relational change in terms of my lovers. I've gone through so much change in terms of my workspace. Mm-hmm. In terms of from sauna to community mental health, and now going back and just change all around.

And to embrace that, which again, it sounds so cliche and it is cliche.

[01:42:38] Cait: I think cliche things exist because they're very universal. Yeah. Yeah. So I all need to learn from them.

[01:42:43] Nicole: Yeah.

[01:42:44] Cait: What do you know about change now that you didn't know a year ago? I'm gonna say that it's perpetual.

[01:42:50] Nicole: Mm. Every single. I mean, I, I might've said I knew that, and you know what?

I'll probably listen to this when I'm 80 and being like, girl, you still didn't know. But I really feel like I'm starting to grasp it because again, remember I told you I teach the psychiatry residence. Yeah. One of their common questions they ask me is, what do I do with the client that comes back every single time talking about the same exact thing?

[01:43:11] Cait: Mm-hmm.

[01:43:11] Nicole: And I'm trying to get them, it's not the same thing.

[01:43:14] Cait: It's not. They might be the same words, the tone might be different. Yep. There's a lot that,

[01:43:20] Nicole: yes, every time it's the spiral, like you're going deeper. Mm-hmm. Sure. Maybe it's the same circle, but you're going deeper and deeper. And you've said the story once, so now you're saying it a second.

Yeah. It is deeper. And so just, there is no staticness. Right? Yeah. Unchanged by every single word that's coming outta me. Right. For kid now. Mm-hmm. Right. And so I think I feel that a lot more, um. The here and the now, and a lot of what we talked about of relational complexity is just, it keeps changing and so can you continue to fall in love with yourself.

[01:43:50] Cait: Mm-hmm.

[01:43:50] Nicole: Your, your podcast, your artistic practice, whatever that is, you know, whatever is in your life, it's just inevitable that it's gonna keep changing and to not beat yourself up. Yeah. When a connection no longer feels alignment. In alignment, whether that's a work, a, a space, a hobby. Mm-hmm. You know, a craft or a person, like it's okay.

And you can go through that and you'll be okay. Right.

[01:44:13] Cait: I think, oh, one thing that really struck me when you were speaking is I think we think about change on the backend a lot. Like after something has changed, we think about that moment because it's not the most comfortable. The flip side of that is that that reason, that person came into your life, the reason the podcast started, the reason any of these things came towards you is because change happened.

Mm. Right. And that's, I think, a little bit of a lost part of the narrative. Mm. Or like in order to bring things in that are in alignment, change had to happen before that. Yeah. So even if you don't think about that, when wonderful, joyous things come into your life, because often I feel like they can feel very serendipitous.

Yeah. And they're like, this just came here. How did this get here? Right, right. This relationship, this relationship that you're in, right. On his phone, I don't know. Yeah. Right. He changed so much change in you had to happen so that you were in the right place at the right time to meet that person. Right.

And so like change is like absolutely a catalyst for so much of the joy in our life too. Mm-hmm. So, and I like am ex I'm experiencing you experiencing so much new joy Yeah. In your life these days. Yeah. So cliche or not, I just feel like, yeah. Perpetual change. Mm-hmm. And you might have known it in your mind that that was part of change, but I do do think you've lived it this year.

You have lived it this year. Last, please. In very real ways. And no, I'm here for it. Set me up. Set me up. I'm here for it. I'm here. And if the voice messages were any testament, like you stayed present with it did. You really did. Even when it was really hard.

[01:45:38] Nicole: Yeah. You really did.

[01:45:39] Cait: Stay present with it.

[01:45:40] Nicole: You Come as hard as you can cry.

Yep. My opinion. In my opinion.

[01:45:43] Cait: That is so good. Yeah, that's very true. I was actually talking to a friend the other day because she, she had said to me, I cried for the first time during sex and I was like, congratulations, this is the best. Yes. Like that is like a level of safety and catharsis that it's just like when, when your body wants to do that, like, how beautiful.

Mm-hmm. And she was so, she was like, I, I like. I'm trying to make sense of it and I was like, it is so beautiful. Yeah. It's so beautiful unpacking. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I'm, the goal is like that we cry harder and come harder, right? Mm-hmm. That like in every direction we feel harder politically. That is my goal.

We feel that is my goal. Like, yeah. I love that you're gonna run for like some totally nons, like it won't be part of the current system we're in at all. Oh, it's coming. Be right here. But there'll be like running for some something and that will be the tagline on, on your, like on your front, come on your front yard size.

[01:46:31] Nicole: We really, we will attract Right. Audience who that speaks to.

[01:46:35] Cait: That's the thing, right? Like that's the idea, right? That there's more of that happening. Yeah. I'm curious. Mm-hmm. Is there anything else that feels like alive for you that you wanna talk about? That I love you. I love you too.

[01:46:48] Nicole: Yeah. You did such a good job of holding space for me.

I'm so grateful.

[01:46:51] Cait: Easy with you. Like. I just always wanna know more about how you're thinking about things. Yeah. And how you're evolving in this world, so, mm-hmm I'm really glad to be able to do that in a way that we get to share with other people. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Thank you for being so like with it and open with all these little facets of how you've changed in the last year.

Yeah. Thank you for holding the space for me. I'm excited to keep,

[01:47:11] Nicole: love you so much.

[01:47:12] Cait: Creating with me too.

[01:47:14] Nicole: Absolutely too.

[01:47:15] Cait: And we love fat cat too. We can't forget about you.

[01:47:19] Nicole: No, can'tan. Oh, dear listener, if you wanna connect with Cait. She is a therapist in training who will be taking clients this fall at the Center for Modern Relationships in Chicago, and she also co-founded the Feel Co, which is a space where play meets inner work.

So they're building queer community, they're having somatic workshops, intimacy education, and so many other fun things that I would highly recommend going over to their Instagram, which is the underscore Feel co. And I will have all that linked in the show notes below. If you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast.

And head on over to ModernAnarchy podcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I wanna thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.